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Disney bans Moore film - Page 3

post #81 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Hey, thanks for the support. But honestly, I just clicked on a random link and that's what came up. I got a good laugh out of it and brought it back to try and help scott fine tune his attacks. His blind accusations aren't helpful, and what I quoted proves why I believe that.


They are not blind. They are backed up by a well documented site that has volumes of Moore's lies and distortions.

YOUR "blind' knee jerk reaction to anything I post is the problem here. But you've been an annoying troll following me around the forum for a long time now.
post #82 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
YOUR "blind' knee jerk reaction to anything I post is the problem here. But you've been an annoying troll following me around the forum for a long time now.

Aren't attacks like this supposed to get people banned?

Your posts, like the one I used to get that quote, are ignorant. That's why I rebuke them. If you took the time to analyze and comment rather than just posting a link that doesn't support your case, you might find that a discussion of facts would emerge. Instead, no point can even be discussed because you don't make any supported claims. You state an opinion, which is fine, but you claim it's supported by facts when in fact you support your claim with facts that disprove what you're trying to say.

That's not my fault. That's your fault. Don't kill the messenger.

If you want to support your claim go ahead and quote and link to some facts that support your claim rather than some that do not.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #83 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Hey, thanks for the support. But honestly, I just clicked on a random link and that's what came up. I got a good laugh out of it and brought it back to try and help scott fine tune his attacks. His blind accusations aren't helpful, and what I quoted proves why I believe that.

On the flip side though...you shouldn't call people ignorant, and also chastize two people to read the links when you characterize your own actions as basically scanning and quickly posting back to Scott. The post back was basically claiming that there wasn't any material of substance on the Spinsanity page.

Can you at least be honest and say that there was, and that you simply didn't have time to get to it all and find it? Can you at least admit that you not having time doesn't mean others are ignorant, just as you weren't ignorant.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #84 of 113
You know, I took a long look at the Michael Moore is a Liar site.

Almost every caveat is a small matter of emphasis. For example:

Quote:
Page 23: Moore twists around the order of Attorney General John Ashcroft's claims in a Senate hearing in December 2001. Slamming Ashcroft for refusing to give the FBI permission to examine records of background checks for gun purchases by suspected terrorists, Moore writes "The Senate (and the public) only found out about Ashcroft's orders to stop the search for terrorists' gun files until December 2001, when Ashcroft not only proudly admitted to doing this in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee, but went on to attack anyone who would question his actions to protect the hijackers' gun rights. He told the panel that critics of his anti-terror practices were 'providing ammunition to America's enemies... To those who would scare peace-loving people with phantoms of 'lost liberty,' my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists." Ashcroft actually made the statement (which we condemned at the time) in his opening remarks, well before he addressed the issue of gun checks. Moore's framing makes it appear as though Ashcroft's controversial statement was made with direct reference to the issue of checking firearms records.

Now, I'm not in favor of this kind of casual manipulation to make a point.

But I can't help but notice that: Ashcroft did, in fact, refuse to give the FBI permission to run background checks on suspected terrorist gun purchasers, he did seem entirely unrepentant before the Senate Judiciary Committee, and he did make his little "providing ammunition to America's enemies" speech.

Which strikes me as a lot more damning than changing the chronology of his remarks slightly.

Lists of "17 errors" that are larded with things like an incorrect date or a point open to contention or something speculative that Moore has put forth that the list maker thinks is unlikely doesn't really demolish his credibility.

So the dismissive "Michael Moore is a proven liar" may be technically true, but leaves us with the obvious "Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield, Ashcroft, Wolfowitz, deLay, Frist, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, and Coulter are "proven liars", certainly by the standards applied here, and, if I'm understanding Scott's point correctly, should henceforth have their every utterance dismissed out of hand as completely without merit or credibility.

So I'll give you Michael Moore if you'll give me the list above. Otherwise, STFU.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #85 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
On the flip side though...you shouldn't call people ignorant, and also chastize two people to read the links when you characterize your own actions as basically scanning and quickly posting back to Scott. The post back was basically claiming that there wasn't any material of substance on the Spinsanity page.

Can you at least be honest and say that there was, and that you simply didn't have time to get to it all and find it? Can you at least admit that you not having time doesn't mean others are ignorant, just as you weren't ignorant.

Nick

If someone is ignorant of the facts, then they're ignorant. I'm ignorant of the facts that would lead someone to believe that Michael Moore is a liar. That's why if scott makes the claim he should support it. I chastize someone for not supporting their claim.

End of line.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #86 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
If someone is ignorant of the facts, then they're ignorant. I'm ignorant of the facts that would lead someone to believe that Michael Moore is a liar. That's why if scott makes the claim he should support it. I chastize someone for not supporting their claim.

End of line.

this thread is going well. it remains true that people aren't actually upset because "moore is a liar," they are upset about his point of view. anyhow, if we could form a line to the left and right of sensibility, a nice hearty, well informed debate should follow
post #87 of 113
I point this out every time Scott tries to spread the Moore = Liar meme and points to Spinsanity (not always a bad site) because it is such an absolute fucking classic:

Quote:
from :Forbes finds more falsehoods in Moore's "Bowling"
The distortions begin with the film's title. Lyons reports that, contrary to the title of the film, the two boys who committed the massacre at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo., did not bowl the morning before the shooting. Although early news reports did state that they had attended a bowling class in the morning, police told Lyons it's simply not true.

How could anyone not frothing with hatred (either partisan or personally directed at Moore) write that paragraph without realising that it makes absolutely no sense. At all. Not even close.

The film's title is "Bowling for Columbine", and somehow those three words constitute a lie or a 'distortion'? This also shows that most of the detractors hadn't even watched the film as in it there is an interview with classmates of the killers who talk about bowling with them at school (though not on the morning of the killing, not that that makes any difference) which makes the whole paragraph even more stupid, though its stupidity is plain to those who know the film only by its title.
a flirt with mediocrity comes with heavy penalty
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a flirt with mediocrity comes with heavy penalty
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post #88 of 113
Thread Starter 
Apparently it wasn't just Disney trying to ban the film - it was the White House as well. Or maybe just the White House, who knows.

Anyway, seems that the film is a heat-seeking incendiary device that could really light a fire under Bush - no wonder they are getting so hot under the collar, this could burn down the whole show.

It seems that Moore managed to embed some cameramen amongst troops in Iraq (under cover) and the results are explosive.

Quote:
"When you see the movie you will see things you have never seen before, you will learn things you have never known before. Half the movie is about Iraq - we were able to get film crews embedded with American troops without them knowing that it was Michael Moore. They are totally fucked....

The film is only partly to do with the Bin Ladens and Bush. I was able to send three different freelance film crews to Iraq. Soldiers had written to me to express their disillusionment with the war. It's a case of our own troops not being in support of their commander-in-chief."

In few low-key preview screenings that have already taken place in the midwest "the reactions were overwhelming. People who were on the fence - undecided voters - suddenly weren't on the fence any more."

Looks like this film could really put Bush (further) into the hot-seat - I can't wait to see it.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #89 of 113
You forgot to quote the best part segovius. PULL YOUR BLINDER OFF! HEAD OUT OF SAND TIME!


Quote:
He has given no evidence to substantiate his allegations, but said "someone connected to the White House" and a "top Republican" had put pressure on film companies not to release the film.


Clearly the BBC hasn't reformed it's ways.
post #90 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott

Clearly the BBC hasn't reformed it's ways.

You mean clearly crediting when a 3rd party makes statements he doesn't substantiate?

Dummy, that's what news sources are supposed to do.
meh
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post #91 of 113
For the BBC to publish such tripe on the "he said it not us" defense is ludicrous. Aren't the supposed to have two sources anyway?
post #92 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
For the BBC to publish such tripe on the "he said it not us" defense is ludicrous. Aren't the supposed to have two sources anyway?

When someone says something to you, you can report "this person said something to me." You don't have to have a witness.

If you report, "The White House is blocking a film" it may be better to have two sources, although this is a case-by-case issue and a recommendation issue.

You may like to RTFA however, where you'll see the BBC is saying "Michael Moore is claiming the White House is blocking a film."

Not "the White House is blocking a film."

In fact, let me quote TFA so everyone can see your mistake:

Quote:
Speaking in Cannes on Sunday, Moore said the Bush administration wanted to keep the film off screens in the run-up to November's US election.

He has given no evidence to substantiate his allegations, but said "someone connected to the White House" and a "top Republican" had put pressure on film companies not to release the film.
meh
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post #93 of 113
I didn't make a mistake. Moore is a known liar. The BBC should know better than to publish something he says without some backup. But ... it fits in with the spin they want to put out there. Good journalism be damned! There's anti-Bush tripe to publish!
post #94 of 113
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
I didn't make a mistake. Moore is a known liar. The BBC should know better than to publish something he says without some backup. But ... it fits in with the spin they want to put out there. Good journalism be damned! There's anti-Bush tripe to publish!

But the sentence Harald quoted is far more anti-Moore than Bush - what are you talking about

The BBC are quite clearly distancing themselves from Moore's claims. I guess the fact that they have an article on Moore at all is 'anti-Bush' now.....sad......
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #95 of 113
Moore is kinda like the left's Art Bell.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #96 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
I didn't make a mistake. Moore is a known liar. The BBC should know better than to publish something he says without some backup. But ... it fits in with the spin they want to put out there. Good journalism be damned! There's anti-Bush tripe to publish!

You don't get it do you?

If someone says "Hello" to you, you are allowed to report the fact without a second source that says "I saw him say 'Hello' to you."

Can I put this any more simply?

No, I can't.
meh
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post #97 of 113
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Moore is kinda like the left's Art Bell.

I thought that was Rense...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #98 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
I thought that was Rense...


???

I know nuthing!! nuuuuuuthing!!



The whole Air America/Moore paradigm creeps me out, I wouldn't want them on my side---hate upon hate upon sarachasm upon fast-and-loose "journalism"---esp. Moore---foaming at the mouth, all the way to the bank.


¡No bueno!

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #99 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
You don't get it do you?

Yes, but that doesn't mean someone cares.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #100 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
I didn't make a mistake. Moore is a known liar.

Interesting. Could you point out some of his lies?



Anotehr note, I don't know if this has been posted yet: Fahrenheit 9/11 in Cannes showed yesterday .. a nice article in La Repubblica (sorry, too lazy to translate from Italian). I want to see that movie.
How many problems have you modified or originated in the past 1 day?
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How many problems have you modified or originated in the past 1 day?
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post #101 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Giaguara
Interesting. Could you point out some of his lies?
...


Read the thread. Moore's lies are well documented at the Spin Sanity web site.
post #102 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
You don't get it do you?

If someone says "Hello" to you, you are allowed to report the fact without a second source that says "I saw him say 'Hello' to you."

Can I put this any more simply?

No, I can't.

Factually it's correct but it doesn't mean it's good journalism to report someone's outrageous claims based only on their word. The BBC should know better but they gave up good journalism some time ago.
post #103 of 113
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Factually it's correct.....

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #104 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Read the thread. Moore's lies are well documented at the Spin Sanity web site.

Could you please quote a second source? Either that or stop claiming that Moore is a liar and start claiming that Spin Sanity says Moore is a liar.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #105 of 113
Scott, you do not understand what I am telling you. You do not understand journalism.

Moore's comment was newsworthy. Just like it would be if the White House made a comment such as "Moore is lying."

The BBC is in the business of reporting newsworthy things.

The BBC can report that "Michael Moore says the White House is blocking his film" because the comment is newsworthy.

It cannot report "The White House is blocking Michael Moore's film" without checking it.

It can report that Michael Moore says it is without checking that Michael Moore says it because Michael Moore said it to them. To add "He offers no substantiation" is good journalism, as it disasocciates the comment from the reporting.

If the White House were to say, "No we're not, Moore is a liar," the BBC could report that without having a second source. It could not, however, report "The White House has a policy of helping movies it does not like" without a secord source.

I say here, without making any claim to Moore's veracity, that what you are doing is known as "Shooting the Messenger." It is very dull.

Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Factually it's correct but it doesn't mean it's good journalism to report someone's outrageous claims based only on their word. The BBC should know better but they gave up good journalism some time ago.
meh
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post #106 of 113
UG--"blocking the film" etc., is not much more than nonsense, and the boys in the newsroom at BBC know better.

In reality there was a nicely choreographed series of press releases designed to boost the popularity of Moore's manure---directed at his target audiance. An audiance that will continue to see marketing directed at producing a positive cashflow.

If this movie was about "fighting for the little guy" Moore would stream it for free on the internet.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #107 of 113
20 minute standing ovation for Fahrenheit 9-11 at Cannes!!

http://www.drudgereport.com/

Moore defined "Fahrenheit 9-11" as the "temperature at which freedom burns, after Ray Bradbury's "Fahrenheit 451", the temp required to ignite books in an anti-Utopian society.

Freedom fries...under Bush.

Other reviews:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...l=968705899037
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...783455987.html
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #108 of 113
Hey Scott, the BBC review is in. They're up to their tricks again, those damn commies. Let me quote from it:

Quote:
This is a Michael Moore film and, while that does not mean he is wrong, it must be watched with a critical eye.

...

The film's conclusions are reached through a mixture of firm evidence, interesting information, moving scenes and tenuous theories.

The first conspiratorial link (is if true), an interesting piece of trivia - but hardly proof of a family plot to steal the presidency.

...

There is little proof to firm up links Moore goes on to make.

...

There is highly selective editing.

Sounds like reportage without an agenda; something you really should try and understand.
meh
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post #109 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
UG--"blocking the film" etc., is not much more than nonsense, and the boys in the newsroom at BBC know better.

Could you read my posts please? Might help you get this 'journalism' thing.
meh
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post #110 of 113
Meanwhile, the response from the Wall St. Journal, as posted on Michael Moore's own website:

Quote:
While my new film Fahrenheit 9/11 has not been seen yet, it seems to have already generated a wee bit of interest.

Here's the latest. This morning, a columnist for the Wall Street Journal - who has not seen the film - has decided, instead, to review a "synopsis" of the film. That's right, a "synopsis" from a fax of an early version of a press release someone gave him from the studio. Based on this, he accuses the film of being inaccurate. But guess what? Everything he says about the film in his column is completely false. I mean, seriously, NOTHING of what he describes is in the film!

Most real journalists would be embarrassed to do such a thing. What's next - "I can't see the film, I can't see the synopsis - so I'm reviewing the poster!" I worry that Fahrenheit 9/11 is already driving otherwise sane people to lunacy.

What would you expect from the WSJ, the biggest pro-business, pro-war paper in the country. As they so aptly put in their paper today: "The bad news is that in today's freewheeling media environment, consumers seem increasingly unable to distinguish truth from fiction, news from polemic, reality from fantasy." This morning, they proved their own adage to be correct. They gave us fiction, not the truth.

Here's a radical idea: Why don't we wait for the film to come out before attacking it? I promise you the film is much better than the "synopsis."

- Michael Moore

But can you really expect a "fair and balanced" approach from a tome that Gore Vidal called a "cheery neofascist paper"?
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #111 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
Could you read my posts please? Might help you get this 'journalism' thing.

Sorry, I know too many journalists!

(and I'm only half-kidding)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #112 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
Meanwhile, the response from the Wall St. Journal, as posted on Michael Moore's own website:



But can you really expect a "fair and balanced" approach from a tome that Gore Vidal called a "cheery neofascist paper"?

You might try actually reading the WSJ. You might learn something.

And quoting someone other than Gore Vidal. Oh be still my beating heart.

But then, I guess the WSJ is a little to adult for this forum.
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The Mom
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post #113 of 113
Quote:
Originally posted by Fangorn
You might try actually reading the WSJ. You might learn something.

And quoting someone other than Gore Vidal. Oh be still my beating heart.

But then, I guess the WSJ is a little to adult for this forum.

I do, on occasions. It has as much information and news than a number of the other dailies combined, many articles that do not make it in the popular media. And Vidal's assessment is not inaccurate.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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