Originally posted by NaplesX
I amy be wrong, but you sound as if you think that democracy and freedom are not worth suffering or persevering a bit for.
You also seem to think that a tyranny is no better or worse that a democracy. 6 of one half a dozen of the other right?
That may be where some of the tension here is caused. I for one believe that freedom and democracy are dependent on each other, and are worth fighting for or even suffering for.
Struggle makes the reward so much sweeter. No-one wants anyone to suffer, however it has to happen to attain freedom and democracy.
Don't forget the US and other freedom loving countries are suffering right alongside those people, because we all want freedom to prevail.
I sound that way only if you are incapable of thinking beyond on/off, black/white, yes/no, good/evil dichotomies . . .
I said quite clearly that Hussain needed to go . . .I even bolded it because I knew that some, who are either too lazy to read the whole thing or are incapable of believing the world has more shades than two, wouldn't SEE IT otherwise!
My post is about the fact that the Institutions which we have and cherish came about through a long painful history: they only arrived after years of struggle
-(and, dare I say, the humane aspects of which struggle nearly always were motivated by classically 'Liberal' ideas
and years of the ever increasing intertwining of institutions: health and safety standards, EPA, police oversite commitees, Rights laws and organizations, anti-descrimination, universal primary education etc etc etc (we still seem incapable of taking some final steps that many civilized countries seem easily to do =universal health care etc)
My post also states that should a country go from Tyrany to "freedom" loving democracy in one fell swoop, without going through the long history of development, it would probably need to have a long-term form of transitional infrastructure akin to socialism (hence China's semi-success transition and Russia's painful quagmire --and also, why the WTO method of universally prying open undeveloped local economies and forcing them into radical Laissez-faire is innapropriate for specific circumstance)
Bush and gang chose Iraq for their great Democracy experiment (Pax Americana
) because they saw that it had the institutions in place that might transition well into a secular democracy . . . granted these institutions were the product of a Tyranical form of socialism they existed nonetheless.
What they did wrong was they didn't see that the war would destroy those institutions and also unleash the dormant tribal and religious affiliations beneath the Hussain boot . . . they just didn't look at the reality of the area because they had a 'Vision' to pursue instead!!
It would take a miracle for Iraq to come anywhere near the social stability and benefit that it had under Hussain OUTSIDE of the lack of freedom and brutal oppression . . . it will most likely be replaced with a lack of freedom (due to innumerable things, including severe economic disparities) and brutal oppression of a different sort.
but still Hussain had to go
. . . we should have thought about better means to get him out and get the transition going . . . we would have saved lives and not alienated America for the future.