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post #201 of 319
5/12/04 at 11:18pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
I heard on a the radio a report of an interesting edito of a french newspaper.

Basically it explains, that both pictures of the Abuse of Iraqi prisonners and the beheading of the US guy was horrible, but that the two do not compare.

The goal of the pictures of abuse of Iraqi prisonners is to point out the dysfonctionnement of a system in order to fix it. (and that's what happens : trials in martial court are in the way).

The goal of the atrocious murder of the US guys is just to bring more hate. Hatefull pictures to create more hate.

That's hilarious

Do you really not see the fallacy and partisan spin in that ?

Two crimes happen. Both are photographed/filmed, whatever. But they are committed by people nominally opposed politically - it's a problem: what to do to maintain the good/evil divide and stop people reaching the conclusion there might be common factors in the behavior of the 'good' guys and the 'evil' guys ?

Simple: sleight of hand:

The goal of the pictures of the abuse is to stamp out the abuse (possibly true in some respect)

The goal of the abuse in the beheading vid is to cause more hate (true -though actually it probably isn't strictly the goal as such from the beheaders pov but let it ride).

Simply compare abuse with a depiction of abuse and hey presto, the prolls won't know the difference (wake the *** up people for God's sake).

Voila - two true statements and the good/evil separation between us and them maintained - with the added bonus that the actual abuse in the Abu Ghraib photos is reduced to the status of a mere picture and discussed as such (rather than what it was - ongoing and systematic legitimised rape, murder and torture against people held without charge and legal rights).

Brilliant !

Or stupid.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #202 of 319
5/12/04 at 11:24pm
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Brilliant !

Or stupid.

very very troubling. frustrating. and sad.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #203 of 319
5/12/04 at 11:33pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
very very troubling. frustrating. and sad.

Fellowship

Just to clarify: I was calling the technique of the media spin stupid - not Powerdoc who is my favourite mod

That's after you Fellowship of course....I mean not that the others aren't great too....err..no.....in fact I mean I love you all equally and unconditionally....umm.....err...that's someone at the door, be right back...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #204 of 319
5/13/04 at 12:06am
Quote:
Originally posted by Akumulator
I'm not going to watch it. I will gain nothing from it.

don't watch! the image will depress you and won't go away for a long long time.
" I will not commit anything to memory that I can get from another source . . . "
ALBERT EINSTEIN
" I will not commit anything to memory that I can get from another source . . . "
ALBERT EINSTEIN
post #205 of 319
5/13/04 at 12:14am
Quote:
Originally posted by Vox Barbara
don't watch! the image will depress you and won't go away for a long long time.

A member of another forum put it well

If you choose to watch this movie, know this:
1. It is real
2. It cannot be 'unseen'


I will not watch it.
orange you just glad?
orange you just glad?
post #206 of 319
5/13/04 at 1:43am
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Wrong. As of late March/Early April, Iraqi citizens were roughly evenly divided in their support (and I'm sure that support has dropped even further since the prison torture photos were released)... LINK. Another more detailed link

I don't have time to dig up a link to disprove your other claim which I believe might be just as inaccurate, that we are fighting Al Qaeda backed terrorists in Iraq. Maybe you could find a link to back up that assertation?
Perhaps you should consider taking your own advice...

I saw an ABC poll on TV not too long ago that said that 7 out of 10 Iraqis said things overall were going well for them. I guess it all depends on what poll you want to cite. I checked your links and the overall data can be rather confusing and quite often the poll results conflict with each other. I think it is a confusing time for Iraqi citizens. Once we hand over power to the locals I would anticipate seeing an even more favorable attitude towards the United States because it will be a sign that a promise has been delivered and I think there will always be skeptics towards an occupying force until that actually happens.

As far as who the enemy we are fighting, the majority of the problem lies with the 20% of the population that is Sunni Arab. They are the ones who are resisting because they don't want to see the Kurds and the Shias in positions of power - they were used to control under Saddam's regime and are loath to take a back seat to anybody. We have had much more success in working with the Kurds and the Shias. And there clearly is a terrorist element that has come in from the outside and there is at least very strong circumstantial evidence that Al Qaeda or organizations closely aligned with them are behind many of the attacks that have occurred in Iraq. A lot of you may choose not to believe that but clearly a lot of people who know more about such things than you or I are pretty convinced that it would be in Al Qaeda's best interest to cause trouble for the U.S. in Iraq and many of the attacks over the last several months posess all the characteristics that Al Qaeda has become notorious for.
post #207 of 319
5/13/04 at 1:47am
Quote:
Originally posted by 7E7
As far as who the enemy we are fighting, the majority of the problem lies with the 20% of the population that is Sunni Arab. They are the ones who are resisting because they don't want to see the Kurds and the Shias in positions of power - they were used to control under Saddam's regime and are loath to take a back seat to anybody.

--------

We have had much more success in working with the Kurds and the Shias.

Sadr.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #208 of 319
5/13/04 at 3:58am
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Sadr.

Shhhsh! That nasty little fact screws up the explanations for why the Iraqi don't like the occupation!
for sale. or rent
for sale. or rent
post #209 of 319
5/13/04 at 4:08am
Interesting issues are arising. Let's get the al-Qaeda connection under the spotlight first as it seems to be the main leitmotif of the issue.

From a CNN transcript of a programme featuring comments by Octavia Nasr, CNN Senior editor of Arab affairs talking with CNN anchor Miles O'Brien:

Quote:
O'BRIEN: Well, let me ask you this. You've had a chance to really listen to this tape and get a sense who might be responsible, just by deciphering, say, accents. And certainly, there in the Arab world, they're very attuned to that. And given the fact of who this may or may not be, does that have some effect on how it is being played?

NASR: Yes, and if you listen to these voices that we're hearing on Arab networks, Iraqis are condemning this execution. And they're saying these are foreigners. These are not Iraqis. They do not represent us and so forth.

Now, of course, the original claim was that Zarqawi is the actual man who performed this execution. Our experts listened to the accent, as you said, and they determined the accent is not Jordanian...

O'BRIEN: He is a Jordanian who is working supposedly, allegedly, at the behest of al Qaeda in Iraq. So go ahead.

NASR: Right, he is very close to bin Laden, and works, you're right, as an agent of al Qaeda in Iraq. Now, the accent is not Jordanian so that takes the Jordanian element out of the story immediately.

O'BRIEN: Interesting. All right, now one final thought here. You did a very careful translation of your own, of the statement. And in it, you see no reference to al Qaeda. And yet the official U.S. government translation does. Explain how that happened.

NASR: Oh, I find it very interesting, because out of the blue, there is a mention of al Qaeda on the U.S. government translation. It says: "Does al Qaeda need any further excuses?" Any speaker of the Arabic language is going to notice a difference between the word al Qaeda, which means "the base," and al qaed, which means "the one sitting, doing nothing."

My translation says: "Is there any excuse for the one who sits down and does nothing?" Basically they're telling people, you have no excuse for not doing anything, for not acting and defending Islam and so forth. Whereas the U.S. government translation has this factual error, I'm sure it's an honest mistake, but basically it sort of adds al Qaeda to the statement, which is not on the statement.

O'BRIEN: All right, Octavia Nasr, we don't know exactly how that got in there. We'll try to get more on that. We appreciate you bringing that all to light and appreciate your insights, of course.

NASR: You bet.

So let's underline this - there are two links to al-Qaeda in the beheading meme:

1) Zarqawi and 2) The claim by the beheaders that they are al-Qaeda.

However, regardless of the suspicious timing and timeline of the Berg video, the putative al-Q link seemingly confirmed by the film actually does the opposite and calls it severely into question thus:

1) Zarqawi:

Is apparently dead.

Definitely had/has a false leg (which 'Zarqawi in the video apparently showed no evidence of).

Has a Jordanian accent (which 'Zarqawi in the video again shows no trace of).

2) Al-Qaeda

Are NOT mentioned in the 'statement' read on the Berg video.

ARE referenced in a US government report as being mentioned in the 'statement' read on the Berg video.

But as the aptly named O'Brien says in his closing remarks: we don't know exactly how that got in there.

Sounds about right.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #210 of 319
5/13/04 at 5:11am
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
You know bunge, usually your arguments sound reasoned and sane, but you are going a bit overboard with these. Yes, war is sick. The video is disgusting and horrible, I am sure, even the descriptions are unnerving. None of which would lead me to think it should be broadcast. If a woman you knew was brutally raped and murdered, let say you mother, would you want that aired on international TV as a teaching tool for people to see how horrible it is? That is an extreme and vile analogy, but it makes my point...something just shouldn't be put on public display, That doesn't mean hide that it happened, just that there is little value in promoting it like an episode of Friends.

There's always a disclaimer. Don't look if you don't want to. No offense, but if you believe in hiding one piece, you've got to be prepared to have everything hidden. I'm not prepared for that.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
post #211 of 319
5/13/04 at 6:25am
"One of the few good things about modern times: If you die horribly on television, you will not have died in vain. You will have entertained us."

-Kurt Vonnegut

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0512-13.htm
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
post #212 of 319
5/13/04 at 8:44am
Saudi Arabia, Jordan, UAE decry 'barbaric act'

(CNN) -- Three Arab states -- Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the United Arab Emirates --- are condemning the beheading of American Nicholas Berg by his Iraqi captors, shown in a video that appeared on an Islamist Web site.

Three Arab states condemn American's beheading
post #213 of 319
5/13/04 at 8:53am
I just watched the video.

The human experience is highly varied and different for everyone. It is my deepest wish for everyone to live in peace and prosperity, to have their days filled with picking out what to eat for dinner rather than concentrating on who to hate.

As offered earlier in this thread:
Quote:
Don't try to logically separate the acts from the conflict. Whether sanctioned by recognizeable governing bodies or not, these kinds of things happen in every war. Israeli-Palestinian wars included (rockets, human bombs, bulldozers, etc). It would behoove us all never to forget it so the next time one is upon us, we have a full grasp of "what happens next".

I don't think this can be stressed enough:
War is always horrible.
There are always massacres, torture, and rape.

I will forever remember this video.

Unfortuantely, it takes shocking footage like this to remind some people of just how bad war is. Thousands of inocent Iraqis have been killed. Yet it takes only one beheaded American for us to realize just how devestating the American invasion of Iraq is for many in the Middle East.
post #214 of 319
5/13/04 at 9:47am
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Interesting issues are arising. Let's get the al-Qaeda connection under the spotlight first as it seems to be the main leitmotif of the issue.

From a CNN transcript of a programme featuring comments by Octavia Nasr, CNN Senior editor of Arab affairs talking with CNN anchor Miles O'Brien:



So let's underline this - there are two links to al-Qaeda in the beheading meme:

1) Zarqawi and 2) The claim by the beheaders that they are al-Qaeda.

However, regardless of the suspicious timing and timeline of the Berg video, the putative al-Q link seemingly confirmed by the film actually does the opposite and calls it severely into question thus:

1) Zarqawi:

Is apparently dead.

Definitely had/has a false leg (which 'Zarqawi in the video apparently showed no evidence of).

Has a Jordanian accent (which 'Zarqawi in the video again shows no trace of).

2) Al-Qaeda

Are NOT mentioned in the 'statement' read on the Berg video.

ARE referenced in a US government report as being mentioned in the 'statement' read on the Berg video.

But as the aptly named O'Brien says in his closing remarks: we don't know exactly how that got in there.

Sounds about right.

I think that tis is very significant and needs to be seen . . .

It seems, unfortunately, that the Iraq/AQ excuse is still being perpetuated by the powers that be . . . . except that the seams are showing again!!!!

We are being lied to, RIGHT NOW . . . not just to get the war started . . . . 'al qued' the phrase in the video, DOES NOT MEAN the same thing as Al Queda!!!!!

yet our translation SAYS AL QUEDA!!! so that is a blatant lie through deliberate mistranslation!!

THe Zarqwi thing might be as well though it did seem to say that he was representing Zarqawi . . and wasn't himself Zarqawi . . . but, nonetheless, the spin wants us to think it is him . . . when it isn't.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

post #215 of 319
5/13/04 at 10:00am
I am going to stick my head on the line, and say that I believe there is a good chance that this whole video was staged as a desperate PR attempt to divert attention from our own misdoings in the Iraqi prisons, and focus our minds back on why we supposedly are there. I have yet to think of many good reasons why Al-Q would do this, but I can think of many reasons why such an evil, brutal video would benefit the coalittion.

I dont need to be flamed.
post #216 of 319
5/13/04 at 10:29am
The reason we have been given for the beheading is "in retaliation for the prison torture/abuse of Iraqis". This also doesn't fit, because Berg's murder happened over two weeks ago, well before the first torture/abuse pictures were aired around the world.

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #217 of 319
5/13/04 at 10:31am
Where is everyone getting the two weeks from? Is there a good timeline description anywhere?
post #218 of 319
5/13/04 at 10:31am
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
I am going to stick my head on the line, and say that I believe there is a good chance that this whole video was staged as a desperate PR attempt to divert attention from our own misdoings in the Iraqi prisons, and focus our minds back on why we supposedly are there. I have yet to think of many good reasons why Al-Q would do this, but I can think of many reasons why such an evil, brutal video would benefit the coalittion.

I dont need to be flamed.

You know what.....
....
....
....
The same thought crossed my mind.\
post #219 of 319
5/13/04 at 10:50am
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
I am going to stick my head on the line, and say that I believe there is a good chance that this whole video was staged as a desperate PR attempt to divert attention from our own misdoings in the Iraqi prisons, and focus our minds back on why we supposedly are there. I have yet to think of many good reasons why Al-Q would do this, but I can think of many reasons why such an evil, brutal video would benefit the coalittion.

I dont need to be flamed.

Whatever one thinks of al-Q and Obl, one thing they are not is stupid. Debatably they may be 'evil' but that 'evilness' stems also from a form of 'cunning'.

There is NO WAY (imo) that they are stupid enough to release such a video (even if they did it exactly as it appears on the film) at this time when Iraqis have the 'moral ascendency' in terms of world opinion re Abu Ghraib.

I just can't see it.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #220 of 319
5/13/04 at 10:58am
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Where is everyone getting the two weeks from? Is there a good timeline description anywhere?

I think I remember hearing that too. But from what I can figure, they found his body on Sat., May 8, and told his family on Mon., May 10. We saw the video the next day.

He seems to have been let out of the Iraqi jail on April 6, and then missing again April 9.
post #221 of 319
5/13/04 at 11:03am
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Where is everyone getting the two weeks from? Is there a good timeline description anywhere?

Its a figure someone made up to push the debate toward another direction.

Reuters just posted this:
Quote:
PHILADELPHIA (Reuters) - The father of Nick Berg, the Pennsylvania contractor beheaded in Iraq, on Thursday directly blamed President Bush and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld for his son's death.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=5136519

Note the fact that that poor young man lost his life on Thursday.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...




"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...




post #222 of 319
5/13/04 at 11:04am
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
I am going to stick my head on the line, and say that I believe there is a good chance that this whole video was staged as a desperate PR attempt to divert attention from our own misdoings in the Iraqi prisons, and focus our minds back on why we supposedly are there. I have yet to think of many good reasons why Al-Q would do this, but I can think of many reasons why such an evil, brutal video would benefit the coalittion.

I dont need to be flamed.

i believe his body is back in the US
post #223 of 319
5/13/04 at 11:05am
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Its a figure someone made up to push the debate toward another direction.

Reuters just posted this:


http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=5136519

Note the fact that that poor young man lost his life on Thursday.

i directly blamed Bush a day ago in a post
post #224 of 319
5/13/04 at 11:07am
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I think I remember hearing that too. But from what I can figure, they found his body on Sat., May 8, and told his family on Mon., May 10. We saw the video the next day.

He seems to have been let out of the Iraqi jail on April 6, and then missing again April 9.

someone in this thread mentioned the 2 weeks thing. i don't believe it though. US troops just found the body. i don't think these people would've kept the body for 2 weeks
post #225 of 319
5/13/04 at 11:23am
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
There is NO WAY (imo) that they are stupid enough to release such a video (even if they did it exactly as it appears on the film) at this time when Iraqis have the 'moral ascendency' in terms of world opinion re Abu Ghraib.

I just can't see it.

I absolutely can. A political cause, a fundamentalist mind-set, a genuine grievance and a dangerous pyschopathology are a potent combination.

They don't care about 'sympathy' and the 'moral ascendency'. They want to rewrite the rules so that's it's OK to do awful things to people. This was A Statement to further The Great Cause. It wasn't necessarily for 'our' benefit at all.
post #226 of 319
5/13/04 at 11:36am
Quote:
Originally posted by burningwheel
someone in this thread mentioned the 2 weeks thing. i don't believe it though. US troops just found the body. i don't think these people would've kept the body for 2 weeks

Let's forget the 2 weeks for now. Try this for size:

The date of the 'zarqawi' statement in the video is 11th May according to al Jazeera - a fact not disputed by any other reports and also cited by Drudge and others.

Quote:
The website said Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a top ally of al-Qaida leader Usama bin Ladin, was the man who cut off Berg's head. The statement in the video was signed off with Zarqawi's name and dated 11 May.

11th May was Tuesday.

According to this news report the military confrmed Berg's body was found on Saturday (ie the 8th):

Quote:
The body found on the overpass was identified as Nick Berg, 26, of West Chester, Pa., a self-employed civilian contractor. Berg's body, with signs of trauma, was found Saturday, the military said.

The Saturday 8th date that the body was found seems most common though I have also seen Monday mentioned but can't find the link.

In any event, this is anomalous:

Was the Zarqawi date on the video wrong or the date the body was found ?

What about investigation ? If a headless body was found Saturday then wouldn't it have hit the news then ? I would have thought it would take a while to find out it was Berg's, remember there is no video till Tuesday - why the delay in announcing the find ?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #227 of 319
5/13/04 at 11:42am
Random thoughts...about this and everything happening in general...

Bullets, bombs or machetes...they all destroy. Humans have been destroying each other since the beginning of time. Before Christ/Allah/Buddha/placedeityhere and after them. Religion has given many insight to the faithful and a way of life that can be peaceful and unifying...to those of that faith. If one is not of that faith...then they are not part of their faith or let's say "humanity".

The term humanity has no more meaning...if it ever had.

The Imperial Japanese Army beheaded their enemies (as Samurais did before them). Raped and pillaged all that got in there way. And surprise attacked (debatable today) a nation many time larger and more powerful than themselves. We dropped two atomic bombs on them. Seems to have worked. They have been more or less a peaceful nation.

But is that what it takes? Bombs? Not love, trust, or understanding? Diplomacy?

Bullets, bombs or machetes...there is no difference to the destruction it does to the victim, the families, the people and the world. The person who welds these weapons has one emotion...hate. We hate Osama Bin Laden for what he has done to us. He hates us for what we have done to him. We seek him out with our own form of hatred, just as we have used this "hatred" of Saddam Hussain over his own hatred to his people...now most of the ME has become the core of hatred There doesn't seem to be anything now to stop this cancer...it's become terminal when angry, vengeful people display there hatred on video...and slaughtering a normal, innocent person or persons for anyone to see.

Though there are nice, happy, peaceful people all over the world...they seem to be the ones who have become the prey...for the angry, hateful, greedy, bullets, bombs & machetes wielders.

All I got. My sympathies to the families and victims of this hatred everywhere.

\
I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
post #228 of 319
5/13/04 at 11:54am
Quote:
Originally posted by trailmaster308
You know what.....
....
....
....
The same thought crossed my mind.\

Perhaps proof that great minds DON'T think alike?
post #229 of 319
5/13/04 at 11:54am
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Let's forget the 2 weeks for now. Try this for size:

The date of the 'zarqawi' statement in the video is 11th May according to al Jazeera - a fact not disputed by any other reports and also cited by Drudge and others.



11th May was Tuesday.

According to this news report the military confrmed Berg's body was found on Saturday (ie the 8th):



The Saturday 8th date that the body was found seems most common though I have also seen Monday mentioned but can't find the link.

In any event, this is anomalous:

Was the Zarqawi date on the video wrong or the date the body was found ?

What about investigation ? If a headless body was found Saturday then wouldn't it have hit the news then ? I would have thought it would take a while to find out it was Berg's, remember there is no video till Tuesday - why the delay in announcing the find ?

That doesn't make sense, because we first saw the video on Tuesday the 11th, and the Berg family said they were notified on the 10th that the body had been found. Maybe the video was delivered on Tuesday, but it wasn't made on Tuesday.

There doesn't seem to me to be any problem with the timeline. He was kidnapped in early to mid April, the Abu Ghrain pictures came out at the end of April, and he was killed in early May. His body was found on the 8th, his family was informed on the 10th, and we saw the video on the 11th.

[edit]BTW, these news reports all reference a web site. Has anyone actually seen the link to this website?
post #230 of 319
5/13/04 at 12:01pm
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell

[edit]BTW, these news reports all reference a web site. Has anyone actually seen the link to this website?

No. I saw the name of the website on a news report and looked for it for about ten minutes but I couldn't find anything close. I'd be interested to know where the people who posted links here found them.

(I've decided not to watch the video, incidentally, because I understand it's a film of a man getting his head chopped off.)
post #231 of 319
5/13/04 at 12:02pm
Quote:
Originally posted by 7E7
Perhaps proof that great minds DON'T think alike?

huh?

Maybe not true, but the thought did cross my mind.
post #232 of 319
5/13/04 at 12:02pm
Quote:
Originally posted by 7E7
Perhaps proof that great minds DON'T think alike?

Who are these 'great minds' and what did they disagree on?
post #233 of 319
5/13/04 at 12:10pm
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
I think that tis is very significant and needs to be seen . . .

It seems, unfortunately, that the Iraq/AQ excuse is still being perpetuated by the powers that be . . . . except that the seams are showing again!!!!

We are being lied to, RIGHT NOW . . . not just to get the war started . . . . 'al qued' the phrase in the video, DOES NOT MEAN the same thing as Al Queda!!!!!

yet our translation SAYS AL QUEDA!!! so that is a blatant lie through deliberate mistranslation!!

THe Zarqwi thing might be as well though it did seem to say that he was representing Zarqawi . . and wasn't himself Zarqawi . . . but, nonetheless, the spin wants us to think it is him . . . when it isn't.

I cannot believe you guys? You are practically accusing the Bush Administration for the murder of Nick Berg based on some CNN Middle East analyst! What I find very amusing about all of you anti-war liberals at AO (and you are because you have never presented any workable solutions about how you would go after the terrorist threat we face differently) is this: you can make all the accusations you want with absolutely NO PROOF whatsoever - not even the slightest shread of circumstantial evidence. Yet when there are very strong signs that Islamic fundamentalists are behind this brutal act you totally dismiss them out of hand.

Start providing proof for your conspiracy theories or shut the hell up!!!!!
post #234 of 319
5/13/04 at 12:29pm
Quote:
Originally posted by 7E7
I cannot believe you guys? You are practically accusing the Bush Administration for the murder of Nick Berg based on some CNN Middle East analyst! What I find very amusing about all of you anti-war liberals at AO (and you are because you have never presented any workable solutions about how you would go after the terrorist threat we face differently) is this: you can make all the accusations you want with absolutely NO PROOF whatsoever - not even the slightest shread of circumstantial evidence. Yet when there are very strong signs that Islamic fundamentalists are behind this brutal act you totally dismiss them out of hand.

Start providing proof for your conspiracy theories or shut the hell up!!!!!

I have to wonder if you are even reading the same thread that I am. Or maybe you're just reading the words differently...kind of like how a colorblind person sees red things as green?

Look at the posts above...they are full of evidence that lies are being told by the military and the CIA (big fucking surprise that) in order to promote a particular agenda (link Iraq and al Qaeda by any means possible). We're discussing what is going on, and so far the most we have conjectured is that something weird is up.
post #235 of 319
5/13/04 at 12:31pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
(I've decided not to watch the video, incidentally, because I understand it's a film of a man getting his head chopped off.)

More hacked than chopped. But the effect is essentially the same. Only with extra screaming.

Edit: thinking about it again, the screaming is probably the worst thing about it. You just keep thinking 'that poor guy.'

I expect there are worse things to see, but I understand why the video is really bothering some of the people who have watched it. It is genuinely upsetting.
post #236 of 319
5/13/04 at 12:45pm
Quote:
Originally posted by 7E7
(and you are because you have never presented any workable solutions about how you would go after the terrorist threat we face differently)

who cares? we are not the government and can't do anything about it
post #237 of 319
5/13/04 at 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally posted by 7E7
I cannot believe you guys? You are practically accusing the Bush Administration for the murder of Nick Berg based on some CNN Middle East analyst! What I find very amusing about all of you anti-war liberals at AO (and you are because you have never presented any workable solutions about how you would go after the terrorist threat we face differently) is this: you can make all the accusations you want with absolutely NO PROOF whatsoever - not even the slightest shread of circumstantial evidence. Yet when there are very strong signs that Islamic fundamentalists are behind this brutal act you totally dismiss them out of hand.

Start providing proof for your conspiracy theories or shut the hell up!!!!!

I am not saying that it is Bush's doing . . . leave that to other posters on this thread . . . I think it is overboard: I believe some local faction of wannabe Religious fundamentalist radicals that wanted to be associated with the 'greater cause' of AQ and Zarqawi probably did this.

I think, though, the spin on mistranslating 'al qued' which DOES NOT MEAN Al Queda into 'Al Queda' is deliberate and very clearly serves the purposes of this administration in bolstering their proven-false claim that AQ was in operation in Iraq and therefor justfied the invasion . . . (read that again and get it into your head before you respond please)

I also think that I have posted numerous alternatives to ways to fight the WOT in other threads . . . it is simply that you ignore them: particularly because you equate the invasion of Iraq with the WOT . . . . it is not: that is merely the cover story for a long held ambition . . . it in fact, has proven to be, as many here new it would be, the worst possible course of action, after the good, IMO, Afghanistan invasion.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

post #238 of 319
5/13/04 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
I am going to stick my head on the line, and say that I believe there is a good chance that this whole video was staged as a desperate PR attempt to divert attention from our own misdoings in the Iraqi prisons, and focus our minds back on why we supposedly are there. I have yet to think of many good reasons why Al-Q would do this, but I can think of many reasons why such an evil, brutal video would benefit the coalittion.

I think it is highly unlikely US was involved in the killing (mistranslation essentially seals that part of it), but pinning it on "al-qaeda" and/or Zarqawi is extremely suspect, for a long string of reasons.

I can't tell whether this is a case of military losing control of information or if it is an information offensive. Likely the 1st. But then again, who's pinning it on zarqawi if it wasn't him? Who's involved in what groups? Is zarqawi in competition with osama or working with him. Are zarqawi and/or osama even still alive?
post #239 of 319
5/13/04 at 1:04pm
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
I think, though, the spin on mistranslating 'al qued' which DOES NOT MEAN Al Queda into 'Al Queda' is deliberate and very clearly serves the purposes of this administration in bolstering their proven-false claim that AQ was in operation in Iraq and therefor justfied the invasion . . .

Another related point is that there were claims from the Bush admin, pre-invasion, that Zarqawi was Bin Laden's agent in Iraq...but there was contention that Zarqawi's group was akin to being a competitor to Al Qaeda and that Zarqawi and Bin Laden considered each other to be rivals.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3483089.stm
post #240 of 319
5/13/04 at 1:13pm
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
[edit]BTW, these news reports all reference a web site. Has anyone actually seen the link to this website?

http://www.al-ansar.biz/

But it's offline now.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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