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post #121 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Can't see the logic behind getting rid of WOMD during the run-up to the war.

If the idea was to flush 'em to avoid the invasion, seems like Saddam would have then been fairly forthcoming about it, otherwise what's the point?

If the idea is that Iraq hastily got rid of them once they realized they were being invaded, again, what's the point? Too late to make nice, can't really see it as a plan to come off clean after being invaded (unless you think Saddam had an amazingly baroque scheme to lure America into invading his country by dangling WOMD, then flush 'em to make America look really bad.?

Certainly seems more likely that if Saddam in fact had WOMD at the point of the invasion he would have used them.

Your argument would certainly apply if we were talking about a sane person, but we are not.

SH was paranoid and delusional.
post #122 of 162
The venom of some of these responses here is staggering. It's as if they have become extremely defensive over the notion that anything WMD in nature could be found in Iraq. It clearly illustrates how an objective discussion is not possible or respected here (as was also demonstrated in another topic here as of late). The anti-war crowd has gotten to the point of total stonewall fervor, whereas the only necessary response is simply, "No, one degenerated bio warhead is not enough for me to reconsider my stance, but I would be interested in further investigation as to its sources..."

The more important idea to behold here is that it doesn't matter if the payload of the weapon is 100% fresh, 50% fresh, or even at a 10% effective status. You still would not one to go off on your street corner. Not worrying about where it came from and if there are more where it came from is deeply akin to "sticking one's head underground" (references the ostrich graphic posted elsewhere at this forum).

Of more academic note, the documentation of bought/stored/destroyed WMD's that Saddam did provide should preclude the presence of this device here whatsoever...and yet there it is. So that leads us to the idea that "taking Saddam's word for it" would not have been such a great idea. We are better off to clearly distinguish what he has OR has not by direct, unobstructed inspection. If we find absolutely nothing, that is still an invaluable distinction. It doesn't (shouldn't) matter if you are for or against the current administration. Coming to terms on this disposition is crucial.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
post #123 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Can't see the logic behind getting rid of WOMD during the run-up to the war.

If the idea was to flush 'em to avoid the invasion, seems like Saddam would have then been fairly forthcoming about it, otherwise what's the point?

If the idea is that Iraq hastily got rid of them once they realized they were being invaded, again, what's the point? Too late to make nice, can't really see it as a plan to come off clean after being invaded (unless you think Saddam had an amazingly baroque scheme to lure America into invading his country by dangling WOMD, then flush 'em to make America look really bad.?

Certainly seems more likely that if Saddam in fact had WOMD at the point of the invasion he would have used them.



That's an excellent point. I dunno, why give the UN cause to complain? Save Face? Was he tacitly working with Syria to break it off in the West's ass? Very good point indeed---but I don't see a sane solution, except to make the West look like a bunch of crusaders.

About the only other thing I could offer is Castro's repsonse to MacNamara when he visited him recently---he basically told him in the event of an invasion they were prepared to "pull the house down on top of themselves---by using the 162 nukes on BOTH the invasion force and the US mainland. When McNamara blanched at that statement Castro stuck his finger in McNamara's chest and told him "If you had been in the same situation, you would have done the same thing."

Go figure. Maybe SH was just nuts.

...from Sony's site, the Teacher's guide to the Movie PDF file

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #124 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Maybe SH was just nuts.

Well, if there's anything everyone can agree on it's that.
post #125 of 162
However, the only thing he would have had is mustard, and there really wouldn't be a tactical reason for the regime to keep it.

Like I said, we already have an extremely clear picture of the extent of the programs and what they produced, when they ended and what was going on within the regime during its last few years.
post #126 of 162
May you live in interesting times.

-"ancient chinese" curse

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #127 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
SH was paranoid and delusional.

Sure, but that makes him more likely to use WMD if he had them, as opposed to sitting on them.
eye
bee
BEE
eye
bee
BEE
post #128 of 162
Quote:
If the idea is that Iraq hastily got rid of them once they realized they were being invaded, again, what's the point? Too late to make nice, can't really see it as a plan to come off clean after being invaded (unless you think Saddam had an amazingly baroque scheme to lure America into invading his country by dangling WOMD, then flush 'em to make America look really bad?

My thought is if there are/were any, they were already hastily hidden from previous weapons inspectors right? To a certain extent at least. But then again if there some that needed hiding, why wouldn't he try to hide them, invaded or not? Do you really think Saddam thought he'd be captured and be ousted from Iraq? The guy had a tiny bit of an ego. Also perhaps he based the outcome of this war on the last one, where he surrendured and was left in power. Along that reasoning he could be hiding it for later use (perhaps on those pesky Kurds). Who knows though. Time will tell I guess.
bah!
bah!
post #129 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
The more important idea to behold here is that it doesn't matter if the payload of the weapon is 100% fresh, 50% fresh, or even at a 10% effective status.

Go tell this to the poor grunts who tried to defuse the thing. From the wording of the press release it seems to me the thing was about .1% effective - which is rather a difference in my book.

However, as I pointed out above, I reserve judgement until results are out.
post #130 of 162
I read that some of you seem to think that you know SH and his decision making prowess or lack thereof, and frankly it amazes me.

It seems to me that this war and many of the problems previous were a direct result of the fact he was so hard to read, not to mention that he was extremely unpredictable.

I will say it as many times as it takes, I guess. This war was SH's fault not GWB's. Because if GWB did not face the problem then his predecessor would have had to. i think that is widely accepted.
post #131 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by Smircle
Go tell this to the poor grunts who tried to defuse the thing. From the wording of the press release it seems to me the thing was about .1% effective - which is rather a difference in my book.

However, as I pointed out above, I reserve judgement until results are out.

Well...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120268,00.html
post #132 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by Smircle
Go tell this to the poor grunts who tried to defuse the thing. From the wording of the press release it seems to me the thing was about .1% effective - which is rather a difference in my book.

However, as I pointed out above, I reserve judgement until results are out.

I think we are arguing the same point- that even the aged stuff that is barely "useable" can wreak a lot of havoc. You don't want it to be dispersed left and right, regardless of whether it is officially past its "expiration date". What did they say? Serin is about 1000x more toxic than cyanide? So at even .1%, it is literally still like a full strength cyanide dispersal- not good.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
post #133 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
Serin

a) Learn to spell it. "Serin" is a friggin bird. "Sarin" is the chemical.

b) No one is arguing about the dangers of sarin.

c) These is just one of many examples of shells left over from the Iran/Iraq war, not evidence of Saddam hiding anything.

Hell, even if we found buried biological weapons in Iraq, you'd still have to reconcile your position with the fact that it happens here in the great USA:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer

But, hey, why let the facts get in the way of your political beliefs? Afterall, you know so little about this that you don't even know how to spell one of the most significant chemical agents.
post #134 of 162
Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin Sarin

It appears all you have left is ad hominen attacks and spelling issues. Too bad you don't flag your own side for spelling when it occurs. The issue remains the same regardless of the spelling. Too bad for you.

Quote:
Originally posted by giant
c) These is just one of many examples of shells left over from the Iran/Iraq war, not evidence of Saddam hiding anything.



You ding me for spelling and then follow it with your own grammar flaw! CLASSIC!

Quote:
But, hey, why let the facts get in the way of your political beliefs? Afterall, you know so little about this that you don't even know how to spell one of the most significant chemical agents.

Evidently you don't know either, given your imposed association of perfect spelling with informed context.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
post #135 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
It appears all you have left is ad hominen attacks and spelling issues.

It's not an ad hominem attack to point out that you don't know about a subject upon which you are making authoritative statements. If you were making false statements about perl and all the while spelling it 'pearl,' you better believe someone is going to mention it.

If you have been in the military, then you can spell it wrong and get away with it. Were you?
post #136 of 162
Yes, you are the only one here who can speak on the subject because of self-proclaimed "credentials". Yadda, yadda, yadda. All of us have been here with you many, many times. I'm sure you realize where all of us feel you should stick your library card.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
post #137 of 162
Now that's an ad hominem attack.
post #138 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Now that's an ad hominem attack.

Don't cry. You get what you give.
post #139 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
I think we are arguing the same point- that even the aged stuff that is barely "useable" can wreak a lot of havoc.

No, my point is that if it was usable by any measure, that guys would have been dead now or at least seriously ill. From what little we can infer from the official statement the contents of the shell was _almost_ completely decayed.

Which would then point to it being fabricated in a time where the former Iraqi gov't admitted to having produced such shells which were later destroyed or buried.
I have spoken to one of the UNMOVIC inspectors about the ammo dumps and what he told me about the conditions there would make it a possibility that someone dug up one of the burial grounds to salvage some shells - basically you only need to know the spots, they are unguarded places in the desert.

But we'll see.
post #140 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
Yes, you are the only one here who can speak on the subject because of self-proclaimed "credentials". Yadda, yadda, yadda. All of us have been here with you many, many times. I'm sure you realize where all of us feel you should stick your library card.

This isn't true. I've made many factual statements and he hasn't bothered to refute them. He certainly doesn't believe he's the only one intelligent enough to speak on this subject.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
post #141 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
This isn't true. I've made many factual statements and he hasn't bothered to refute them. He certainly doesn't believe he's the only one intelligent enough to speak on this subject.

Six of one, half dozen of the other...
post #142 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Don't cry. You get what you give.

I find this highly ironic considering at times you do nothing but cry yourself.

"Boohoo, this isn't GWB's fault. It's SH's!".

Quote:
I read that some of you seem to think that you know SH and his decision making prowess or lack thereof, and frankly it amazes me.

Pot, kettle.
Quote:
I'm sure you realize where all of us feel you should stick your library card.

Oooh. Touchy aren't you? . Speak for yourself though. Some in here might actually want to dispose of their library cards....through you.


Serin is not the same as Sarin....educate thyselves people
post #143 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
Serin is not the same as Sarin....educate thyselves people

"thyselves" is a word? Better keep your library card. You evidently could use the learnin'.

giant?
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
post #144 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Don't cry. You get what you give.

Don't worry, kiddo.
post #145 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
"thyselves" is a word? Better keep your library card. You evidently could use the learnin'.

giant?

Funny, because you haven't realized yet what academic libraries do or why I work with two of the most well-known OS9 developers. Apparently you're computer illiterate, too.

So if you know nothing about either computers or politics, why are you here again?
post #146 of 162
My goodness, what a big head.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
post #147 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
My goodness, what a big head.

Look at you. You have nothing relevant to say. Your posts are just a string of middle school insults.

Look up. The thread title is "wmd found?" not "Randycat99 acts like he just got a wedgie in front of the hot girl."

This thread needs a lock.
post #148 of 162
"get a brain morans"
orange you just glad?
orange you just glad?
post #149 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Look at you. You have nothing relevant to say. Your posts are just a string of middle school insults.

Look up. The thread title is "wmd found?" not "Randycat99 acts like he just got a wedgie in front of the hot girl."

This thread needs a lock.

-----------------------------------------------------------
" You have nothing relevant to say. Your posts are just a string of middle school insults. "
-----------------------------------------------------------
You know the kind of thing Randycat99 used to try to accuse me of.

Once again one shell really doesn't change the fact that a large cache of WOMD have'nt been found. This war was based on a falsehood.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
post #150 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
-----------------------------------------------------------
" You have nothing relevant to say. Your posts are just a string of middle school insults. "
-----------------------------------------------------------
You know the kind of thing Randycat99 used to try to accuse me of.

Once again one shell really doesn't change the fact that a large cache of WOMD have'nt been found. This war was based on a falsehood.

I heard they found about a gallon of mustard previously,
post #151 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I heard they found about a gallon of mustard previously,

Did you read that at FOX?
post #152 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I heard they found about a gallon of mustard previously,

I heard bread is evil. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/yamon.darkside/Bread.html
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
post #153 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I heard they found about a gallon of mustard previously,

The reason I ask is because from what I've seen only a 'trace amount' was found.

The place where I see a big deal being made about a 'gallon' of anything is at FOX in an article about the sarin.

Did you just totally misread the article?
post #154 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Did you read that at FOX?

Why do you ask? You seem to know all.
post #155 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Why do you ask? You seem to know all.

Look up. Let's see your source.
post #156 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Look up. Let's see your source.

With the vast knowledge and exceptional prowess at retrieving and truly understanding the mundane Intel that is so widely available, I would figure you had your hands on such info long before any of us amateurs here. I would also figure a worthy debater like yourself would be prepared for such information seeing that you have it already.

Besides I am sure this hatred for fox is just a ruse, because someone that knows how to glean intel like you say you do, would not want to slough off so shortly a possible source of intel. They do have a ton of reporters all around the globe.
post #157 of 162


So you misread the article.
post #158 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Well...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120268,00.html


Quote:
"A little drop on your skin will kill you" in the binary form, said Ret. Air Force Col. Randall Larsen, founder of Homeland Security Associates. "So for those in immediate proximity, three liters is a lot," but he added that from a military standpoint, a barrage of shells with that much sarin in them would more likely be used as a weapon than one single shell.


Quote:
The soldiers displayed "classic" symptoms of sarin exposure, most notably dilated pupils and nausea, officials said. The symptoms ran their course fairly quickly, however, and as of Tuesday the two had returned to duty.


PS. A purple heart is rightfully theirs.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
post #159 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by giant


So you misread the article.

Well... no, I did not even see that article that you quoted, however interesting.

You see I write these things called... well... words. I specifically said "heard" for a reason. I did not say "read", so you figure it out.
post #160 of 162
Sure, naples. We believe you.
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