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post #81 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
No, I didn't post there, and who cares what whether one likes Bush and his admin. or not. We're talking about the WMDs we went to WAR for. We were under an imminent threat remember? Bull. Yes it does. We were told there were hundreds of tons of chem and bio agents. We were told there were thousands of shells ready to deliver those agents. The threat was imminent, we couldn't wait. If this "find" is enough for you to justify the over 700 dead US troops and the thousands of US casualties, and the billions of dollars spent in this war...well, I'll stop here.

So, if you lived next to a known murderer or child molester, you wouldn't make moves to protect your family unless it was an imminent threat?

I think you would agree that SH was a threat of one kind or another. So you are basing your position on a matter of degrees, IMO. And you as President Gilsch would have gambled the security of your nation on a bunch of maybes and "Yeah he's a bad guy but not that bad" kind of logic?

That logic did not pan out with AQ and the other terrorists, did it?
post #82 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
I have no proof that NaplesX is not a terrorist, a rapist and a murderer.

That may be true, but what does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

All three of those descriptions apply to SH and his two co-dictators/sons, yet it seems that many here would still, if it were up to you, have him left alone to continue that lifestyle. It almost comes across as lament that he is out of power, or is it just the fact that the US did the honors?
post #83 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I think you would agree that SH was a threat of one kind or another.

You would be wrong in that assumption. Look at Ghaddafi. Saddam could have been the next Ghaddafi. There was no evidence that he wasn't going to be.

Of course you all think Bush's recent ramping up the sanctions against Cuba are in some way sane. It's like you get this idea in your brain about who your enemy is and nothing can stop you from wishing death on that person and presuming guilt before innocence.

You (incorrectly, according to all evidence) presumed Saddam had WMDs. I did not.
post #84 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX

Evidence does not have to be a Huge stockpile of WMDs, this find is still evidence, like it or not. Sarin is a WMD and has been found in Iraq. That is a true statement.

For me this isn't a game of legalistic technicalities where Bush suddenly becomes praise-worthy simply because in some very limited sense one might claim that any WMD, regardless of actual effective capability, is the same as any quantity of WMD at all.

You also seem to be ascribing to the unsupported logic that any find whatsoever can only, no two ways about it, be viewed as the tip of an iceberg, that anything seen must imply vast unseen quantities behind it. While such a relationship is possible, is imaginable, it's far from inescapable.

When you consider the cost of the war in Iraq, in human lives, in dollars, in strain on our international relationships, only the true size and scope of the purported pre-invasion Iraqi threat matters, not technicalities.

If we'd poured the hundreds of billions of dollars that we've wasted on Iraq into Afghanistan instead, if we'd truly made an effort to make that country safer and more prosperous, we'd have done much, much more to reduce the threat of terrorism, improve our standing among the world's nations, and show the Arab world our good intentions.

Even freeing Iraqis from Saddam's tyranny -- a very good thing, but not our stated reason for going to war -- might only be a temporary respite for the Iraqis because of terrible post-war planning. The country is very likely to collapse into anarchy and civil war, probably eventually leading to a Shia theocracy, simply changing which group of Iraqis is causing the most oppression and which other groups are most oppressed.

If this mess in Iraq can be solved, and it's looking bleaker all the time, I certainly don't trust Bush and company to be the ones to do it, nor will much of the rest of the world be very willing to help out for as long as Bush stays in charge.

Focussing our money and our manpower to do one job, Afghanistan, and do it right, would have stood a much better chance of not only serving America's interest, but in improving the lives of many poor and oppressed non-Americans.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
post #85 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
You would be wrong in that assumption. Look at Ghaddafi. Saddam could have been the next Ghaddafi. There was no evidence that he wasn't going to be.

Of course you all think Bush's recent ramping up the sanctions against Cuba are in some way sane. It's like you get this idea in your brain about who your enemy is and nothing can stop you from wishing death on that person and presuming guilt before innocence.

You (incorrectly, according to all evidence) presumed Saddam had WMDs. I did not.

So this discovery of Sarin gas in a warhead that the insurgents used on a regular basis, Widely accepted as weapons from SH's many stashes. says nothing to you?

If over the next weeks, these warheads are used, will that say anything to you?
post #86 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
"Absence of proof does not equal proof of absence."
You guys condemn Bush/US for going to war on little evidence. But I will contend that he/we had far more evidence that SH had the WMDs then the other way, even now. Or should I say, especially after this chance warhead and the other with mustard. Like I said, the more they find the more it proves the US right.

For you to turn this into a Bush hating thread just proves how ridiculously poor your "arguments" are. You're more of a Bush fanatic than I thought you were.
You're either with us or against us!
post #87 of 162
From one of the many articles on this. Read carefully:

Quote:
Reuters

Soldiers who removed the bomb experienced symptoms consistent with low-level nerve agent exposure, U.S. officials said. No one was wounded in the partial blast Saturday, and the dispersal of sarin from the bomb was very limited, the military said.


If confirmed in subsequent testing, the discovery would be the first evidence of a banned weapon in Iraq (news - web sites) since the war began. The Bush administration based its case for the war on the existence of such weapons.


Earlier this month, some trace residue of mustard agent, an older type of chemical weapon, was detected in an artillery shell found in a Baghdad street, a U.S. official said Monday, speaking on condition of anonymity. The shell was believed to be from one of Saddam's old stockpiles and was not regarded as evidence of recent weapons of mass destruction production in Iraq.


In Washington, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld cautioned that the sarin results were from a field test, which can be imperfect and more analysis needed to be done.


"We have to be careful," he told an audience in Washington Monday afternoon. Rumsfeld said it many take some time to determine precisely what the chemical was, what its presence means in terms of risks to U.S. forces and other implications.


U.S. troops have announced the discovery of other chemical weapons before, only to see them disproved by later tests. Deputy State Department spokesman Adam Ereli said "the jury is still out" on whether chemical or other weapons of mass destruction remained in Iraq.


The former top U.S. weapons inspector in Iraq, David Kay, said it was possible the shell was an old relic overlooked when Saddam said he had destroyed such weapons in the mid-1990s.


Kay, in a telephone interview with The Associated Press, said he doubted the shell or the nerve agent came from a hidden stockpile, although he didn't rule out that possibility.


Former U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix, speaking to the AP in Sweden, agreed the shell was likely a stray weapon scavenged from a dump and did not signify that Iraq had large stockpiles.


Numerous arsenals and weapons depots were looted in the turmoil following the collapse of the regime last April. Some depots are still only lightly guarded. Many of the materials used for roadside bombs were believed to have been looted.


Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said he believed that insurgents who planted the explosive did not know it contained the nerve agent. The 155-mm shell did not have markings to indicate it contained a chemical agent, a U.S. official said.

It looks like this is an old shell. A there were no markings on the shell, most likely nobody knew what it was. Also take note that this has happened on numerous occasions since the war started:

Big announcement, blazing headlines in the media:

WMDs FOUND IN IRAQ!!!!!!!!. Fox did it again today, and its still up. On each past occasion, analysis has proved the claims to be 100% false. BUT...never a retraction in the media, at best a little 4 liner footnote on page 71, under a Sears three-quarter page ad;, and *never* a mention on the network news. People just remember the original headline, and "history" is written.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #88 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
So, if you lived next to a known murderer or child molester, you wouldn't make moves to protect your family unless it was an imminent threat?

I think you would agree that SH was a threat of one kind or another. So you are basing your position on a matter of degrees, IMO. And you as President Gilsch would have gambled the security of your nation on a bunch of maybes and "Yeah he's a bad guy but not that bad" kind of logic?

That logic did not pan out with AQ and the other terrorists, did it?

Too bad SH was a dictator not a terrorist. How long did it take us to find SH? How long did it take to find the guy that attacked us? I'll argue degrees with you because in terms of US body bags the bade guy is galavanting between Pakistan and Afghinastan. The real bad guy has had enough time to diversify his terror network even more. The real bad guy has been able to use the war with Iraq to cull more recruits. The real bad guy has had time to launder his money even more. The real bad guy is from Yemen BTW.

So if you want to talk about degrees of evil and degrees of threat to the US then go ahead because the real threat (not the pseudo threat SH) has a beard and the initials UBL (or OBL).

One shell. You're preaching the praises of Bush and the glorious conquest based on one shell. One old shell. One old shell filled with sarin (maybe recall the other chemical finds to date). One shell filled with a neuro-toxin which most troops carry, or carried at one time, the antidote for. Yeah that's right, when there is a threat of chemical warefare the troops are issued pam-triple-K and atripine shots. One shell so old that the affected troops didn't even need on the spot treatment. One old shell and you're going to justify the war. Issues man issues.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
post #89 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Too bad SH was a dictator not a terrorist. How long did it take us to find SH? How long did it take to find the guy that attacked us? I'll argue degrees with you because in terms of US body bags the bade guy is galavanting between Pakistan and Afghinastan. The real bad guy has had enough time to diversify his terror network even more. The real bad guy has been able to use the war with Iraq to cull more recruits. The real bad guy has had time to launder his money even more. The real bad guy is from Yemen BTW.

So if you want to talk about degrees of evil and degrees of threat to the US then go ahead because the real threat (not the pseudo threat SH) has a beard and the initials UBL (or OBL).

One shell. You're preaching the praises of Bush and the glorious conquest based on one shell. One old shell. One old shell filled with sarin (maybe recall the other chemical finds to date). One shell filled with a neuro-toxin which most troops carry, or carried at one time, the antidote for. Yeah that's right, when there is a threat of chemical warefare the troops are issued pam-triple-K and atripine shots. One shell so old that the affected troops didn't even need on the spot treatment. One old shell and you're going to justify the war. Issues man issues.

No actually it is two. One with mustard that the army says it found and one now with sarin. Apparently sarin can last a long time in the binary form.

The soldiers were reported to be treated for sarin exposure, so I am not sure that I would say they did not require anything.

First, many of you said that the shelf life was too short for SH to store WMDs and now this find and it's "one old shell" Funny how the story changes.

I do not justify anything about his war based on this shell, I have repeatedly espoused the legitimacy of this war on just the humanitarian reasons. This is just added proof for the pudding. I also have said that everyone should wait before jumping over the edge for or against. Right now I am saying proof is proof.
post #90 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
Of course anyone with a brain would stockpile munitions facing a war....


Actually I meant weapons caches, etc., a deliberate setup for assymetrical warfare. (Like the Swiss.)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #91 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
WMDs FOUND IN IRAQ!!!!!!!!. Fox did it again today, and its still up. On each past occasion, analysis has proved the claims to be 100% false. BUT...never a retraction in the media, at best a little 4 liner footnote on page 71, under a Sears three-quarter page ad;, and *never* a mention on the network news. People just remember the original headline, and "history" is written.

Actually a representative from the US military did it. But don't let the facts get in your way.

Edit: Fox ran a story about the buried warheads I meantioned earlier. And I specifically remember the headline being more like " WMDs FOUND?" And I also remember specifically them following the story all that day and updating the story as info came in and as soon as it was found to be a negative reading, they reported it. I also remember them saying repeatedly that it was a possible WMD find. Nice try, but not true, if that really matters here in AO.
post #92 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
No actually it is two. One with mustard that the army says it found and one now with sarin. Apparently sarin can last a long time in the binary form.

The soldiers were reported to be treated for sarin exposure, so I am not sure that I would say they did not require anything.

First, many of you said that the shelf life was too short for SH to store WMDs and now this find and it's "one old shell" Funny how the story changes.

I do not justify anything about his war based on this shell, I have repeatedly espoused the legitimacy of this war on just the humanitarian reasons. This is just added proof for the pudding. I also have said that everyone should wait before jumping over the edge for or against. Right now I am saying proof is proof.

If you take the time to read the post you'll see that I said (and sourced) that Mustard Gas has a long shelf life in solid form. Finding residue of Mustard Gas doesn't constitute a WMD find as members of the Bush war party have already said. Sarin does have a short shelf life as evidenced by:

Quote:
According to Ritter, the chemical weapons which Iraq has been known to possess -- nerve agents like sarin and tabun -- have a shelf life of five years, VX just a bit longer. Saddam's major bio weapons are hardly any better; botulinum toxin is potent for about three years, and liquid anthrax about the same (under the right conditions). And he adds that since all chemical weapons were made in Iraq's only chemical weapons complex the Muthanna State establishment, which was blown up during the first Gulf War in 1991 -- and all biological weapons plants and research papers were clearly destroyed by 1998, any remaining bio/chemical weapons stores are now harmless, useless goo.

source

Don't believe what Ritter sys though see what the federation of american scientists says about the same thing:

http://www.fas.org/irp/gulf/cia/960715/72569.htm


Updated article btw http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml...toryID=5170978 . The more up to date article features such quotes as"

Quote:
David Kay, who last year led the post-invasion hunt for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq before stepping down, said the sarin was probably left over from the 1980s, produced either during the Iraq-Iran war or before the 1991 Gulf War.

"It was probably just scavenged from one of the 125-plus ammunition storage points that still remain," Kay said. More forensic testing should determine with some confidence when it was produced, he said.

and

Quote:
In Baghdad, Kimmitt told a news conference that two members of a U.S. explosives team had been treated for exposure to the substance.

The tone of the last statement would have been "Two US soldiers are in critical condition following exposure to Sarin gas released from an IED" had the chemicals not been passed their shelf life. As it stands, these poor boots probably got a lung full resulting in some jitters.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
post #93 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Actually I meant weapons caches, etc., a deliberate setup for assymetrical warfare. (Like the Swiss.)

Same thing. EVERYONE who faces an invasion or a military conflict stockpiles weapons, munitions. You stockpile them to use them, not for inventory purposes for the "enemy".

Care to elaborate on the "deliberate setup for assymetrical warfare"(Like the Swiss) part? What is your point?
post #94 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
Same thing. EVERYONE who faces an invasion or a military conflict stockpiles weapons, munitions. You stockpile them to use them, not for inventory purposes for the "enemy".

Care to elaborate on the "deliberate setup for assymetrical warfare"(Like the Swiss) part? What is your point?

In makeshift holes in the ground?
post #95 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Do you know of any civilian incidents involving Serin?

What is Aum Shinrikyo?

"Aum Shinrikyo is a Japanese religious cult obsessed with the apocalypse. The previously obscure group became infamous in 1995 when some of its members released deadly sarin nerve gas into the Tokyo subway system, killing 12 people and sending more than 5,000 others to hospitals. The attack came at the peak of the Monday morning rush hour in one of the busiest commuter systems in the world. Witnesses said that subway entrances resembled battlefields as injured commuters lay gasping on the ground with blood gushing from their noses or mouths."

Um. Can this be classified as a "civilian incident"?

This current report frightens me. Whether there was only one or two...could there still be more? And now that our Gomer Pyle Army just divulged WHAT they had PUBLICLY..."Praise ALLAH! WE have DIRTY BOMBS! ALLAH AKBAR!

/dontwanttothinkaboutit

I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
post #96 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
Same thing. EVERYONE who faces an invasion or a military conflict stockpiles weapons, munitions. You stockpile them to use them, not for inventory purposes for the "enemy".

Care to elaborate on the "deliberate setup for assymetrical warfare"(Like the Swiss) part? What is your point?

The withdraw/blend into predetermined locations, use stashes of weapons to wear down the invasion force, having certain targets "zeroed", etc.


Imagnine a crack house/meth lab in D.C. getting six months notice on a bust. Same thing.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #97 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by Artman @_@
What is Aum Shinrikyo?

"Aum Shinrikyo is a Japanese religious cult obsessed with the apocalypse. The previously obscure group became infamous in 1995 when some of its members released deadly sarin nerve gas into the Tokyo subway system, killing 12 people and sending more than 5,000 others to hospitals. The attack came at the peak of the Monday morning rush hour in one of the busiest commuter systems in the world. Witnesses said that subway entrances resembled battlefields as injured commuters lay gasping on the ground with blood gushing from their noses or mouths."

Um. Can this be classified as a "civilian incident"?

This current report frightens me. Whether there was only one or two...could there still be more? And now that our Gomer Pyle Army just divulged WHAT they had PUBLICLY..."Praise ALLAH! WE have DIRTY BOMBS! ALLAH AKBAR!

/dontwanttothinkaboutit


That was exactly my point. AQ could easily get these weapons while we putz around in Iraq. We're praising this one find while the real bad guys roam Afghanistan hiring likeminded chemists to mix Serin or Ricin.

[edit] I had this link on page one: http://cfrterrorism.org/weapons/sarin.html
it talks about the attack in Japan.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
post #98 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
The withdraw/blend into predetermined locations, use stashes of weapons to wear down the invasion force, having certain targets "zeroed", etc.

Uhh, not quite. Saddam's ARMY was hardly that. What you're describing is guerrilla warfare. You have your terms confused. One more time: EVERYBODY "stashes" weapons. Much more convenient to do that than to "order" them as needed. Stashing, stockpiling, whatever you want to call it, is not a unique characteristic of assymetrical warfare.
Quote:
Imagnine a crack house/meth lab in D.C. getting six months notice on a bust. Same thing.

You're confused. First of all, this Iraqi "crack house" had DEA agents INSIDE it. Big difference.
post #99 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
Uhh, not quite. Saddam's ARMY was hardly that. What you're describing is guerrilla warfare.


I'm pretty sure that is what we are seeing here.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #100 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
One shell. You're preaching the praises of Bush and the glorious conquest based on one shell. One old shell. One old shell filled with sarin (maybe recall the other chemical finds to date). One shell filled with a neuro-toxin which most troops carry, or carried at one time, the antidote for. Yeah that's right, when there is a threat of chemical warefare the troops are issued pam-triple-K and atripine shots. One shell so old that the affected troops didn't even need on the spot treatment. One old shell and you're going to justify the war. Issues man issues.

Behold.... the Two Hundred Billion Dollar Shell!
eye
bee
BEE
eye
bee
BEE
post #101 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Behold.... the Two Hundred Billion Dollar Shell!

Should I laugh or over this?
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
post #102 of 162
I wonder if "they" are getting backed in a corner and are signaling something.


Probably not.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #103 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Should I laugh or over this?

Laugh for a while. Then let it really sink in and have a good cry. Alternate as needed after that.
eye
bee
BEE
eye
bee
BEE
post #104 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I'm pretty sure that is what we are seeing here.

We weren't discussing the current tactics of the Iraqi "opposition". What we were discussing here was whether this incident is proof of the mountains of WMDs we were told existed in Iraq. The mountains of WMDs whose location we even knew according to our very own Secretary of Defense. \
post #105 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
We weren't discussing the current tactics of the Iraqi "opposition". What we were discussing here was whether this incident is proof of the mountains of WMDs we were told existed in Iraq. The mountains of WMDs whose location we even knew according to our very own Secretary of Defense. \

Come now. We ALL KNOW Rummy "mispoke". Kind of like a freudian slip only he used completly incorrect misleading sentences to push an ideology when he really meant Iraq might have a shell or two left over from the 80's. Some peoples kids--I tell ya.

[edit] I actually mispoke the other day. I told my wife she needed to turn right at an intersection instead of the required left. She got lost. It didn't cost 100's of billions, 10,000+ civilian lives and almost 800 US troops their lives. My moment of unclarity wasn't predicated on half truths and outright deceptions (re: Colin Powell on meet the nation).
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
post #106 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Actually a representative from the US military did it. But don't let the facts get in your way.

Edit: Fox ran a story about the buried warheads I meantioned earlier. And I specifically remember the headline being more like " WMDs FOUND?" And I also remember specifically them following the story all that day and updating the story as info came in and as soon as it was found to be a negative reading, they reported it. I also remember them saying repeatedly that it was a possible WMD find. Nice try, but not true, if that really matters here in AO.

You misunderstood me. When I said "Fox did it", I was referring to the way they worded their headline. I am aware that Fox didn't find the shell, just as I am aware that the military didn't write the story. And, by the way, people *do* tend to remember an initial headline more clearly than any retraction.

(!)
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #107 of 162
It should be remembered that the real question here is not whether Iraq ever posessed explosives capable of delivering nerve gas - they admitted to this in the 14000 page report to the UN claiming stockpiles were destroyed.

The questions are:
- was this shell produced after the official end of the nerve gas program?
- and/or was it deliberately hidden from UN inspectors or dug up from a dump site/forgotten in some arsenal which was subsequently looted?

I fail to see why Naples and some others are getting hysterical about this without knowing the answers to both questions - I would like to reserve my judgment until the full information is available.

Heck, even Donald "torture" Rumsfeld is more reluctant about this:
Quote:
Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said the findings of sarin were based on a field test, which can be imperfect, and more analysis needed to be done. "We have to be careful," he told an audience in Washington. Rumsfeld said it might take some time to determine precisely what the chemicals were.

Link

But maybe some people are so depraved that they wish their enemies had WoMDs just to justify a botched war. If are you down the road to partisan politics this much, you don't need tangible proof any more, I guess.
post #108 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by Smircle
But maybe some people are so depraved that they wish their enemies had WoMDs just to justify a botched war. If are you down the road to partisan politics this much, you don't need tangible proof any more, I guess.

The essence of the Bushites is not a search for the facts and the truth but rather is a striving to be always right - and to rewrite the facts and the truth to make it so if necessary.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #109 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by Smircle
It should be remembered that the real question here is not whether Iraq ever posessed explosives capable of delivering nerve gas - they admitted to this in the 14000 page report to the UN claiming stockpiles were destroyed.

The questions are:
- was this shell produced after the official end of the nerve gas program?
- and/or was it deliberately hidden from UN inspectors or dug up from a dump site/forgotten in some arsenal which was subsequently looted?

I fail to see why Naples and some others are getting hysterical about this without knowing the answers to both questions - I would like to reserve my judgment until the full information is available.

Heck, even Donald "torture" Rumsfeld is more reluctant about this:
Link

But maybe some people are so depraved that they wish their enemies had WoMDs just to justify a botched war. If are you down the road to partisan politics this much, you don't need tangible proof any more, I guess.

Read my previous posts, hell read any post all the through, for goodness sake, I am not justifying anything by this one shell. I was one of the people that thought that this war was justified wether or not they found WMD. I was the guy that kept telling all of you, despite being called all kinds of names and accused of everything evil, to wait and see, that they would find ammo that was WMD related.

Now here is my prediction:

You will see more of these used because the people that made this bomb know where they got it and will go back for more.

Or:

They will burry it deeper to avoid the pr hit.

Either way it is there, waiting to be found.
post #110 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
No actually it is two. One with mustard that the army says it found and one now with sarin. Apparently sarin can last a long time in the binary form.

Oh I see. 'Apparently?' As in apparently this is the first time you've learned about this?
Quote:
First, many of you said that the shelf life was too short for SH to store WMDs and now this find and it's "one old shell" Funny how the story changes.

Sure, naples, that's exactly what's going on. It's a good thing your background in special weapons enabled you to see this.
post #111 of 162
Quote:
The former top U.S. weapons inspector in Iraq, David Kay, said it was possible the shell was an old relic overlooked when Saddam said he had destroyed such weapons in the mid-1990s.

Kay, in a telephone interview with The Associated Press, said he doubted the shell or the nerve agent came from a hidden stockpile, although he didn't rule out that possibility.

Former U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix, speaking to the AP in Sweden, agreed the shell was likely a stray weapon scavenged from a dump and did not signify that Iraq had large stockpiles.

Which is what it all really comes down to. We have extensive documentation, good chunks of the regime in custody and the fact is that we now know that there is very, very little chance that Saddam was hiding stockpiles of weapons.

The only reason there is any discussion about this is because pro-war folks are desperately searching for any scrap of evidence that the position they fought for is actually valid.

Poor David kay. When he was hyping the WMD threat he was the right's darling.
post #112 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
We weren't discussing the current tactics of the Iraqi "opposition". What we were discussing here was whether this incident is proof of the mountains of WMDs we were told existed in Iraq. The mountains of WMDs whose location we even knew according to our very own Secretary of Defense. \


I don't think you can separate SH from the "opposition"---or his plans to mitigate the invasion. IF he had WMD in any quantity he either did not hide/destroy/give it away or he did. He had quite some time to do this.

I watched Fog of War the other night, McNamarra went down to Cuba and talked to Castro---apparently they had nearly 10 times the number of missles that we thought they did during the Cuban Missle Crisis. Bad intel happens. I find it hard to believe there was absolutley no fire to go with all that smoke.

If Rummy did not really know where the WMD were in Iraq---then we are dealing with comic book villians who are running the country. I doubt it--CYA is a major political principle in politics; the idea of politicians, en masse, putting themselves into a corner is a non sequitur.

Also, I must insist that my corrupt politicians are better than your corrupt politicians.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #113 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I don't think you can separate SH from the "opposition"---or his plans to mitigate the invasion. IF he had WMD in any quantity he either did not hide/destroy/give it away or he did. He had quite some time to do this.

I watched Fog of War the other night, McNamarra went down to Cuba and talked to Castro---apparently they had nearly 10 times the number of missles that we thought they did during the Cuban Missle Crisis. Bad intel happens. I find it hard to believe there was absolutley no fire to go with all that smoke.

If Rummy did not really know where the WMD were in Iraq---then we are dealing with comic book villians who are running the country. I doubt it--CYA is a major political principle in politics; the idea of politicians, en masse, putting themselves into a corner is a non sequitur.

Also, I must insist that my corrupt politicians are better than your corrupt politicians.

Again (more succinctly): how come SH hasn't spilled the beans on where they are hidden ?

Let's make it easier with a multiple choice:

a) They haven't asked him about that

b) He has an incredible pain threshold which hasn't been broached yet

c) They asked him and he told them where they were

d) They asked him and they don't exist

And btw, all corrupt politicians are the same self-serving tossers wherever they sprout up. No better, no worse.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #114 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Again (more succinctly): how come SH hasn't spilled the beans on where they are hidden ?

Let's make it easier with a multiple choice:

a) They haven't asked him about that

b) He has an incredible pain threshold which hasn't been broached yet

c) They asked him and he told them where they were

d) They asked him and they don't exist

And btw, all corrupt politicians are the same self-serving tossers wherever they sprout up. No better, no worse.


I don't think the WMD exists for some of giant's reasons---freshness dating---and the fact the any one with on firing synapse left would have "flushed the dope" before the party started. This business of the shell is probably a canard, but a FRIGGIN dangerous canard, all the same.

I still insist America has the best corrupt politicians that money can buy.

time to work---I just hope the insurgents haven't a bevy of beauties to IED.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #115 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I find it hard to believe there was absolutley no fire to go with all that smoke.

That's because all that smoke didn't come from a fire - it was being blown up our collective ass by the neo-cons.
eye
bee
BEE
eye
bee
BEE
post #116 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
So, if you lived next to a known murderer or child molester, you wouldn't make moves to protect your family unless it was an imminent threat?

LOL, what a horrible, offbase analogy. If I lived next to a known murderer....I'd probably move to a different city....you know, one that actually puts murderers in jail maybe? I would think the threat would be imminent.
Iraq is not next door in case you're not that good at geography. And besides SH, there are many known murderers around he world we don't seem to have a problem with.
Quote:
I think you would agree that SH was a threat of one kind or another. So you are basing your position on a matter of degrees, IMO.

He was a threat to the people who disagreed with him in his country. Your opinion has been proven to be wrong (some would say on the whacky side)by quite a few "degrees" already. I'll play nice and just call your opinions very partisan and not fanatical. But that's just my opinion.
Quote:
And you as President Gilsch would have gambled the security of your nation on a bunch of maybes and "Yeah he's a bad guy but not that bad" kind of logic?

lol Again, another poor analogy. It's hilarious to watch you struggle trying to come up with something remotely close to a point. I suggest you work on your analogies a little harder so that they at least become borderline relevant to the topic. You must be an extremely paranoid person to have seen SH as an immiment threat to the security of our nation. You fell for all the BS about the mushroom cloud hook, line and sinker.
No proven ties to AQ(even your hero W said so), no unmanned aerial vehicles good enough to do much, no long range missiles capable of delivering bio and chemical agents yet to be found, not much of an army left, not much of an airforce left . No "nukulear" war heads. No capability to develop them.
He was such a threat he was actually complying with the UN inspectors roaming INSIDE Iraq at the time for the most part.
Quote:
That logic did not pan out with AQ and the other terrorists, did it?

The BS logic you're somehow, desperately trying to attribute to me? I'm not a gullible, party fanatic who idolizes Bush, so save the lame comments for someone else.
post #117 of 162
We all know that SH had chemical weapons at one time so it would surprise me if in all of Iraq they didn't find anything. However you'll notice that WOMD is plural. Attempting in any way to say this one shell justifies the war is pathetic.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
post #118 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I don't think you can separate SH from the "opposition"---or his plans to mitigate the invasion. IF he had WMD in any quantity he either did not hide/destroy/give it away or he did. He had quite some time to do this.

You haven't been paying attention because even his son in law(later murdered by SH)who was in charge of the weapons programs back around 95 or 96 told US when he defected that the weapons had been destroyed under his watch. The UN inspectors couldn't find them, the US inspectors haven't found them after over a year. Hmmm.
Whatever time you claim he had to destroy or move those massive quantities of weapons, I guess our satellites, you know, the ones that took those really clear pictures that Powell showed the world at the UN, must have been down or "something".
Isn't it intriguing that NONE of the scientists involved in those "Weapons of Mass Destruction Related Programs Activities( The last BS name we were fed when nothing could be found lol) have come forward or given us any clues about where the weapons are over a year later, and even with the promise of $ and a safe life in the US?
Quote:
If Rummy did not really know where the WMD were in Iraq---then we are dealing with comic book villians who are running the country.

Did you miss him going on TV saying "we know where they are...they're in the area north of Baghdad....blah blah blah??? I have him on DVD saying it. This is a waste of time. It's hard to have a discussion with you about WMDs if you're not up to date man. My goodness, do some research.
Quote:
Also, I must insist that my corrupt politicians are better than your corrupt politicians.

I don't know who "your" corrupt politicians are, but as weak on facts as you appear to be, I'm sure they love you.
Here's some help for you. I'm sure you'll love the source.Click me
Quote:
O'REILLY:_ All right._ But on March 30, 2003, Donald Rumsfeld, secretary of defense, said this, he said, "We know where the WMDs are._ They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad."_ That turned out to be a mistake.
RICE:_ Well, they're still searching._ The areas around Tikrit and Baghdad happens to be one of the most difficult areas, of course._ It's in the Sunni triangle (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

Want more, try Google.
Quote:
On March 30, 11 days into the war, Rumsfeld said in an ABC News interview when asked about WMDs: "We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."

Click me There's hundreds of links about Rumsfeld and what he said about WMDs. Help yourself.
post #119 of 162
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I don't think the WMD exists for some of giant's reasons---freshness dating---and the fact the any one with on firing synapse left would have "flushed the dope" before the party started. This business of the shell is probably a canard, but a FRIGGIN dangerous canard, all the same.

I still insist America has the best corrupt politicians that money can buy.

time to work---I just hope the insurgents haven't a bevy of beauties to IED.

Can't see the logic behind getting rid of WOMD during the run-up to the war.

If the idea was to flush 'em to avoid the invasion, seems like Saddam would have then been fairly forthcoming about it, otherwise what's the point?

If the idea is that Iraq hastily got rid of them once they realized they were being invaded, again, what's the point? Too late to make nice, can't really see it as a plan to come off clean after being invaded (unless you think Saddam had an amazingly baroque scheme to lure America into invading his country by dangling WOMD, then flush 'em to make America look really bad.?

Certainly seems more likely that if Saddam in fact had WOMD at the point of the invasion he would have used them.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
post #120 of 162
While we chase tails arguing wether or not SH had WMD or not, the fact is that he did and the UN and the world asked him to destroy them and make an accounting for them. He has never done so.

He also never followed his own cease fire agreement and continuously fired upon coalition aircraft.

These are the reasons for this war. It was up to him and his government to satisfy the UN and more importantly the US/UK since they were the only entities with the desire and ability to enforce the sanctions.

I still don't understand the desire to defend that murderous regime. I know you'll say something like "I'm being patriotic by pointing out the mistakes of my government." Well, in my opinion you may believe that, but the reality is you just sound like you are defending SH and his regime.

I know that finding Sarin in Iraq proves nothing to you about the WMD issue. I also realize that when they find, oh let say 40 or 100 or 200, you will still say "What happened to the thousands that we were lied to about?".

It will never be good enough, at least until a democrat gets into office. Then anything he/she says will be gobbled up like fine chocolate, much like some do now from their opinion handlers.
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