Originally posted by MacJoo
Got a good laugh from your "talking points" on what you describe as revisionist history.
Regarding the 1967 Six Day War: Dude, a blockage (ie. Straits of Tiran) is an act of war. Get over it, also the Soviets supplied weapons/training to many Arab states, true they were not Soviet satellites, but the 60's - 80's was a showdown between USSR and USA technology/idealogy. Also I recommend you read a few MILITARY HISTORY BOOKS to get an unbiased, unpolitical account of 1948-49 (war of independence), 1956 war (GB,France, Israel), 1967 (Six day War), 1973 (Yom Kippur War)and more recent conflicts---honestly you make some good points, but you also put your foot in your mouth.
Regarding "occupied territories". This is a misnomer. There is no such thing as "Palestine", no state has ever existed. In fact, Palestine is not an arabic word (Filastine), was created by Roman Empire (cira 70 CE) to insult the defeated Jewish state rebellion and renamed Syria Palestina in reference to old Philestine population that occupied Ertz Israel, before the founding of the first Jewish commonwealth.
Also Ertz Israel (or historic Palestine 70 CE and on) was occupied by many a people: Jews, Romans, Arabs, Persians, Ottoman Empire, Egyptians....we can go on. Point is occupied territories is a relative word.
Besides Israel, the USA are the only nations to give up land to losers of military campaigns (if you are about to make the arguement for displaced people, I suggest you read post WWII history regarding millions of Germans that were forced to leave Poland, Austria,Czech.. that were not compensated by U.N. this was an issue to be resolved by the defeated country), this is how history works and how nation borders are created.
If you really want to get a good appreciation of the debacle of the entire Middle East, read the treaty of Versailles (ie post WWI) a good book is titled 1917. This really is the orgins of alot of Middle East Conflicts. Keep in mind the conflicts encompass more than Jew vs. Arab, but also Arab vs. Arab.
Also look at history maps of "historic Palestine", it is much bigger than just Ertz Israel...hum, can you say modern day Jordan....curious.
Also, the West Bank was annexed by Jordan after the 1948-49 war of independence. The Gaza Strip was annexed by Egypt, did the Palestinians complain about this, rise up and demand their own independent state? Ah the answer is no? Makes one wonder why, and Jordan/Egypt treated these people as second-class citizens and kept them in refugee camps instead of assimlating them into the respective countries. If you really think about it the Palestians are treated as pawns by the Arab world. The real objective of the Arab world is annihalation of the Jewish State and Pan-Arabism from N. Africa accross the entire Middle East. If the Arab world really wanted peace now and recent past, it would have happened already---Israel has always been willing to conceed land for true peace and establishment of diplomatic/economic relations with Arab Nations.
Look forward to your comments....
I've heard all those arguments before:
a) Palestine hasn't really existed any time in history..
b) The arabic states have lost wars against Israel, so they just need to swallow it and live on...
c) The arabic states treat the palestinian refuggees as second-class-citizens and don't allow them to assimilate...
Those arguments are all legitimate arguments and also true, but tell only half the story:
1. It doesn't matter if Palestine was once a country or not, if the palestinians had a national identity before 48/67 or not, it really is not important. The palestinians have lived in the areas that nowadays make up Israel, have owned land and homes and worked that land, so they have a right to it, regardless if they call themselves palestinians or not.
The israelis also didn't have a national identity before 48, they came from all over the world, the only thing they had in common was their jewish religion. That's why Israel is a jewish state and a jewish democracy, which is an important contrast to normal states/democracies which aren't specifically religioon-bound. What it means is that in Israel the jews are favoured by the law, it means from definition that muslims in Israel are second-class-citizens...
Actually the best solution for the conflict would have been if Israel had annexed the occupied areas Gaza, Westbank and Golan, but Israel didn't want that solution as long as the palestinians are still inside these occupied areas, as Israel would have to grant them the israelic nationality, and Israel would be in danger of losing its jewish character, when there are 5 million islamic palestinians becoming israelis, with voting and candidating-rights...
That is the reason why Israel has decided instead to uphold the occupation, thus having access to the water-ressources there and the ability to found settlements by expropriating land from the palestinians... without having to accept the palestinians as citizens..
2. Yes, the arabic states have lost wars espescially the one from 1948. But one has to remember three important things: a) The arabic states have just gained their independence from the colonists and had no time nor high-profile-support to build up their armies to modern-standards. b) Eventhough these arabic states have gained independence from the british and french troops, because Britain and France have lost most of their military power in the two worldwars, a new form of colonism was installed by the US: Supported families gained the power in their countries and worked from then on in the interest of the USA. c) The wars that happened were only slightly more than show-wars in order to satisfy the arabic masses and to convince them that their governments are not US-puppets. As an illustration of that serves the six-day-war in 67. Regardless of how superior the israelic army is regarding the arabic armies, if the arabic states were really interested in a war with Israel and if they were really not US-puppet-governments, they would have fought the war for years with Israel. Just look at the real war between Iraq and Iran, in which Iraq played the highly superior player against a seemingly weak Iran, and still the war lasted for years and was not won by Iraq.
3. Your last point about the arabic states being no better than Israel regarding the palestinians, that is partially true. But like I already said those are US-puppet-dictatorships having already problems oppressing/suppressing their own people and the palestinians are espescially interested in owning land with water-sources which is difficult to find for them in arabic countries that are mostly desert-land..
So, assimilation in highly populated yet small land stripes with water-sources isn't easy without provoking a massive uprise which would topple the US-puppet-dictatorships..
There's no jewish conspiracy, actually the jews themselves are just instrumentalised by US-interests, in order to create a US-neo-colonialism in the arabic countries where the important ressources are located including the oil. US-puppet-dictatorships complemented by a big US-military-base with the name Israel for the case that all arabic dictatorships are toppled by nationalistic or islamic movements ...