G5 Trinity @ WWDC - Page 2

It wasn't a serious question. I guess you haven't been around here long enough to remember Junkyard Dawg and his penchant for stories involving drunk Apple employees spilling the beans. It was just a lame AI reference.


I know what oblique means.
I was merely trying to slyly induce Programmer into giving some more detail. First the JD reference and now this. Man, NOBODY gets me!

For what it's worth tman, I hope you're sincere with your story about 3GHz at WWDC. It'd be a shame if you're really some 14 year old punk trolling for the hell of it. It's been awhile since somebody came on the boards claiming to have actual inside info. That's what this place is for, right?

Uh, not exactly. The Power chips are built for reliability, and use a larger, better tested process. The Power4s are 180nm, and the G5 was 130nm. It seems very likely that the 975 will be introduced at 90nm.

The POWER4+ is on 130nm. I would be surprised if we saw any more chips for Apple (from IBM) at 130nm.

Apple has done a lot of messing with code names to prevent actual information from getting out, and to reduce its credibility assuming it DOES get out.

They've reused code names. They've told some people one code name and others a different one so they can narrow down the source of a leak. They have used highly misleading code names to add confusion (i.e., the code name for Newton OS 2.0 was Newton OS 3.0). I would not doubt for a second that the new G5s COULD be code named "Trinity." But maybe it's just saying "this is the trinity of PowerMacs that will come out."

If it's true I have to say... GOD DAMN STOP IT WITH THE YIKES MACHINES!!! Other than that... awesome! Still, using an outdated graphics bus for the low end machine is stupid as hell. It's happened before, with the Yikes! G4 that used crappy PCI for graphics, limiting it to a Radeon graphics card (whereas the AGP G4s can take a Radeon 9800 or GeForce 4 Titanium).

Didn't that strange "riddles of the past" thread some time ago at AI talk about Trinity's return? Also isn't Xbox 2 rumoured to have three (3 in 1 = Trinity?) PPC976 chips? Just a thought.

Lets assume for one minute that this rumour is true. The specifications for these machines as so far in excess of the current model and contain some rather more expensive parts that I hfind it hard to believe that these would make an etry at the same price levels. If they do, the preformance gap between the iMac and new G5's would leave the 1mac dead in the water. The iMac is already suffering badly with it rather out of date specifications.

So, I would expect that within 4 weeks of announcement we will either see a G5 -lite to bridge the gap or a new iMac or both.

Of course, one of the other usages of Trinity as a codename was for the first atomic test on 16/07/45.

And these specs as published would be equally cataclysmic in the PC world, especially at the prices mentioned by Existence.

For what it's worth Ensign, I am sincere about what I've posted here but allow me to temper what I've said with the following: I know the gentleman who imparted this information to me only in passing. The context of the dialogue was based on my beginning casual statement to him of how much I looked forward to getting home to my Mac after a day of work in a PC environment. It went on from there and expanded to what I've stated above. Let me be clear; this guy might have been playing me like a hooked bass for all I know but I'm paid to judge and evaluate human nature and I "believe" what he told me but I do not "know" it to be true. I'm a stand up guy and I promise that if WWDC doesn't produce what he said it would I will start a "beat me up" thread here in future hardware.
As for being a 14 year old troll (I know that's not an accusation but rather supposition)- born in Chicago 1949, graduated high school 1968, University of Denver 1971- 3 kids (2 boys 19 & 24, 1 girl 22). Will have been married to my bride of 30 years October of this year. I know a 14 year old could write that, but I hope you can be persuaded if only from the qualitative mechanics of my writing.
I'll colse with this: You, Ensign, and most others on this board have vastly superior knowledge of computers in general and Macs in particular than I. You guys are a wealth of information which is why I come to the AI forums- mainly to learn rather than post- and it's a hell of a good time. I hope, as I know everyone here does as well, that what I was told is true.

Eh... \

I'd guess I would like this rumor better if the baseline was also a dual.

Oh well, you can't have everything in life.

You mean there's actually someone older than me that frequents this board.

I'm pushing 53 and also frequent these boards for amusement and kernels of knowledge as they present themselves.


Curious, I also was married in October.(insert Twilight Zone theme here)

Hope the person you met wasn't yanking your chain, an IBM 975 introduced sooner rather than later can only help Apple at this time.

Wait a minute: an intelligent, well written, lucid, sincere, and dare I say it, believable rumor? Are you sure this is AI?

Well, tman, I'm getting onboard your train, and not just because of the compliments. (You're definitely not 14 at least. The English language weeps for the younger generation.)

So, since I'm now going to believe you, let me grill you for even more details. What terms did he use to describe the processor itself? Did he specifically say 975 or Power5-lite or mention the fab/glue problems with the 970fx, or did he just say "new G5s from IBM" without any knowledge of the codenames? If not, did he seemed surprised that you knew the codenames also?

Dig deep into your memory tman. You are the momentary Belle of the Ball here at AI and no detail is too small.

....psssh. I think its obvious. Its gonna be a tall slender sexy leather clad Mac.

I miss Belle

He specificly referred to the 975 "chipset" in reference to the next generation PM's. What's the difference between the chip and the chipset anyway. I didn't ask- didn't want to look stupid. The new PM's will be desigined around the 975 processor. He did not refer to the power 5 or power 5 derivitave. It is a much more robust (his word-not mine) processor than the 970. He probably would have gone into more technical detail if he was talking to you or Programmer, but I guess he surmised from the conversation that I wasn't too techanially adept. He also told me (I asked this specifically) that the AGP was being replaced with PCIe. That's really the sum and substance of the conversation. Man, what have I gotten myself into? I feel like a nun in a cat house.

You're the man, tman! Thanks for the greater detail.

Your source's specifics on PCIe give me great hope. Anyone who attended Apple's Motion presentation at NAB was struck by that breakthrough app's reliance on the GPU. Those new realtime, drag and drop, no keyframe necessary Behaviors are all being rendered by the graphics card. I think this very clearly indicates a new push at Apple to treat the GPU as a second (or third) processor.

What people don't appreciate about PCIe is that it isn't merely 16x (as opposed to AGP's 8x), it's 16x in both directions. It can return data to the CPU just as fast as it gets it (AGP is restricted to 1x back to the CPU). This opens up all kinds of Open GL accelerated scenarios that would be impossible with AGP. I believe Motion is just the tip of the iceberg and that we'll see extensive GPU optimization in Tiger. In fact, I expect WWDC to be the coming out party for PCIe and all it can do for Apple's OS and apps.

So, I sure as Hell hope tman's source was telling the truth. A water-cooled, dual 3GHz 975 Power Mac G5 with PCIe native ATi x800 graphics at WWDC?

Splooge!

I think the only thing explicitely missing here (after rereading this thread) is if the 975 machines will ship at WWDC, or a little later, or a lot later...

HAHA

Where did water-cooled come into play though?

Can you go into more detail on PCIe for me??

Whats the numbers of the bandwidth? All I can find is info on PCI-Express... which obviously isn't PCIe... enlighten me.

Bet on later for low and mid....

Bet on a lot later for high end....

They will ship 5 high end machines by september 22nd so jobs can be right

This would be no different than what happened with the original G5s last year and we all lived through that.

And for the 1 millionth time, he didn't say "end of summer", he said "within twelve months" which can only be interpreted as 3GHz G5s being at least announced no later than this year's WWDC. At least, that's obviously what he meant at the time.

I just threw that in to complete my dream machine, not that water cooling is out of the question for the new G5s, especially if they're 975 based. I didn't mean to imply tman had relayed that feature from his source.


4GB per second in both directions. It's really the bilateral nature of the data transfer that makes it so compelling. There are probably others on these boards more qualified than I to speak on the merits of PCIe though.

In the meantime here's an article from The Inquirer.

Your choice, blond. brunette and (my choice) Redhead.

I won't try to pass myself off as qualified to speak on all the merits of PCIe but it is worth waiting for. I just hope that Apple implements more than just a slot for the video card. While we don't want to give up the older PCI technology yet it would be very nice to have atleast two PCIe slots in the new Mac. The thought of having two high performance graphics cards in one of thse machines is hot.

DAve

Originally he did say 12 months... but in sept at paris mw he said end of summer... who cares... same to me any ways.

a thread like this is why I spend months reading inanae AI comments. I spend all day in front of my mac doing motion graphics and waiting for the damn thing to render. Motion... ahhh, 975.. ahh PCI Express... ahhhh.
I just wee'd my pants

I think Trinity is for 3 processors. two 975s and one ati/Nvidia PCIe monster.

Check your Jobs quotes. While he did say "within 12 months" at WWDC in June, at Apple Expo in Paris (September 2003) he changed this statement to "3GHz by the end of summer". And Summer, according to Apple, is end of September.

Thats not to say that we wont see 3GHz in June, I am just letting you know that Jobs did indeed update his statement.

The "Trinity" name may be from this TechWorld article dated
February 16th this year titled "IBM reveals chip process trinity".

http://www.techworld.com/news/index....ws&newsid=1035

Fanboi delusions

Your points about the 975 being vapore are cogent, but the original G5 was also vaporware right up until the point it was announced and subsequently released. I guess time will tell who is right. I say that the 975 will be at least announced at WWDC in June.

I'd be surprised if they put more than one PCIe slot in for the first rev, but multiple video cards is a big plus of PCIe over AGP. On the other hand, one of the top end cards is already hot enough, two would be too hot. Literally.

Love the last line of that article:


Spoke too soon, I'd say.

I'm dumb

I did not know that PCI - Express and PCIe are two completely different things. I wasn't sure reading some of the post, I figuresed it was PCIe was just a short hand for PCI Express. If somebody could explain the difference or point me to a page that does, that would be great.

emig647, are you thinking about PCI-X? AFAIK, PCIe does = PCI Express.

They are not the same thing, though they can talk to each other.

Yah I had my wires crossed... for some reason I kept thinking that the current g5's had pci-express but not pcie... too much programming this weekend ...

I've had 5 hours of sleep in the last 48 hours... stupid java / swing

I don't quite understand what you mean, wizard. What's so terrible about the 970? If they've gotten higher clocked yields up, I don't see what the problem is.

I was wondering about PPC 975 info and I googled this up on IBM's Taiwan server and used babelfish to do the Chinese to English translation. Apparently this is a reprint of an iThome article, 132nd issue, p.56 - p.60.

Doc Link

Scroll down to the "IBM Power5/Power5+" section. I found this part most interesting:


To me it sounds like IBM will be focusing on the 975 first. IBM offered the Power 4 in high end servers first, then the 970 in their low-end servers. One could take the above statement to mean that they will bring out the Low end server (975 based?) and then the higher end (Power 5).

In fact, I could swear that I saw an article for new servers from IBM with a power 5 based chip in it.

The article also talks about several other features of the Power5 family that are interesting.

Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.

Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.

Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.

The 970 is not terrible but niether is it the beast that some think it is. One of the biggest problems with it is the size of the cache which will be a problem if an attemtp to ramp colck speed is made. Further by the time it does come outin a G5 Tower. if it indeed does come out there, it will not have an acceptable performance point relative to the rest of the Hardware world.

The 970 and the FX would be fantastic in a iMac or other consumer Mac. It will be lacking in another go around of the Tower, so what I'm trying to say is that Apple has the makings of an excellent low end processor but the high end is a bit underserved by it.

Dave

Ugh. I hope those prices aren't right. My friends at work already mock me bad enough for wanting to spend $2500 for a PMac vs $1000 for a homebrew PC. I know Apple positions the PMacs as professional machines and if the machine is making you money, any price is worth it if the box pays for itself.

But I'm a software engineer who works in a Windows centric shop and has been an Apple owner since 1984. The eMac and iMac are too closed for my taste. I've put new video, memory, hard drive, and optical drive in my B&W G3; about the only upgrade I haven't made is a processor swap. I'm looking at a (hopefully) dual 975, PCIe machine to be serviceable for 5 or so years. If Apple pushes the bar of entry into the "good" machines that high, I may fall off the bandwagon and enter the world of beige boxes and frequent motherboard swaps, etc., etc. - with an iBook to keep me sane.

Maybe other "prosumers" are going to laptops, or Apple will make the iMacs beefy enough to appeal to others, but I REALLY want a new PMac. I hope Apple doesn't price the next gen PMacs out of the prosumer hobbyist market.

- Jasen.

Hold on... we knew plenty about the 970 by January '03, but the Apple G5 machines weren't released until June '03. We had photos of the chip (with feathers!), data sheets, all kinds of information on the chip from IBM, altho nothing from Apple. Some folks still thought Apple would switch to the Itanic, right up to the day that the G5 came out.

By contrast, we know virtually nothing about the 975 at this point. Even the part number is only a rumor.

I wouldn't worry about those prices too much... they don't really compute any ways... I think he was just joking.

Think about the ratio... if it goes dual 2.2, dual 2.6, dual 3.0... the ratio's are completely wrong...

Right now you can get a dual 1.8 for 2500, and a dual 2 for 3k. retail that is. (since you're a software engineer you should be able to slide into getting them cheaper )

If the configs I mentioned above are correct... why would the dual3 go up 500 and the dual 2.6 go up 400?? Graphics Card?

I seriously doubt apple would release a top machine for that price before build to order options have been selected. They wouldn't sell that many... I know I sure in the hell wouldn't buy one for that much. And I definitely wouldn't buy mid line... I'm actually in the same boat you are... I'm a software engineer and I'm sick of windows machines. I've used macs since 93 and want to develop on them full time.

Even with the discount 3500 isn't WAY too high and apple knows it.