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Michael Moore - Fahrenheit 9/11 (general discussion - merged) - Page 8

post #281 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by Common Man
Moore and the Democrats



http://www.chronicallybiased.com/index.php?itemid=588

Bush and the Nazis.

comparisons
post #282 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by buckeye
Bush and the Nazis.

comparisons

I find that picture comparing Auschwits to Gitmo more than just a little insulting !!. . . its completely out-of-line and sick!!
and deprecates serious critique of this administration!!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #283 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
I find that picture comparing Auschwits to Gitmo more than just a little insulting !!. . . its completely out-of-line and sick!!
and deprecates serious critique of this administration!!

Probably. The point of the link was to answer common man's ridiculousness with a little ridiculousness from the other side.

But, the comparisons about the need of leaders to use the media to control the population is relevant to the discussion.

Bush has Rush Limbaugh and the Fox (Faux) News Channel to promote his agenda. Very few people from the left have made a huge stink about that, but now that Michael Moore makes an openly biased movie, they start to cry about it because it is a huge threat to their dominance.
post #284 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by Aquatic
Which ones are "no"? Looks like a "Check, check, check, check" list. Some are a little debateable but mostly, just yes yes yes. Which ones wouldn't be?

As far as I can tell #3 is no . . . I thought it was Richard Clarke who arranged those flights?

I would venture to guess that #8 is also a no . . . what does 'not being read' mean?
Someone clearly 'read' it . . . . prehaps those who voted on it didn't read it too closely . . . but I will venture to say that not one person who voted for it will say that they didn't 'read' it.

I would also say that #s 16-19 are all Kind-of-sort-ofs
#16 - I'm sure that they are always 'working-vacations'
#17 - DId he 'not' read them? He says he did . . . . what he did with that less than scant reading is another question . . . or rather, what he DIDN'T do . .
#18 - The Soldiers went abroad and then their schedules were changed on them without any choice in the matter on their parts . . . to phrase it in the manner in which #18 does is to imply forthought to the deed . . . and I somehow think that the need for their staying came about after they departed . . . simple matter of phrasing, that's all.
#19 - I would say that it appeals to anybody who needs a job . . . sure that is the poor and needy bt it doesn't need to be seen clearly . . . *ehem* I mean need to be seen as overtly manipulative and class biased . . . you could also say that those who need money statistically tend to be more patriotic . . . No?
Ok, I'll concead #19 to ya.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #285 of 407
There are some impossible-to-know-for-sure questions in Wade's list (8 and 17), others are depends-on-how-you-look-at-it (16, 18 and 19)...but the point remains that Moore is not 'telling lies' or 'spounting propeganda' in this film. He's asking uncomfortable questions that become even more uncomfortable to the Bush admin when they are all put together. The fact that Moore wants to make Bush look bad doesn't invalidate the questions.
post #286 of 407
You know what?

The moore I spend time here the more I am convinced that you simply cannot cannot cannot CANNOT convince politically-identified people of ANYTHING !!!!
No matter how rationally argued and reasonable your presentation is!! It is the same for those who are proud of their Identification with the Left as well as those on the Right!

they would argue that the sky does not seem blue on a cloudy day if it ran counter to their rigid ideology

My time here, with Trumpt and SDW and Naples has made me lose faith in human reason and willingness to think things through . . .

how does this apply to Moore?
His film will remain 'trash' for people who want it to be no matter what . . .and it will remain 'great' for those who want it to be no matter . . . .

It all is very disheartening . . .
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #287 of 407
F911 vs. Passion of the Christ...similarities abound in the fanatiscm exhibited for either movie. \

Maybe the big Summer Blockbuster theme for this year is Attack of the Cult Followings?

When's the next Star Wars come out, anyway? We really could have used it to tone things down in movieland this year.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
Reply
post #288 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
You know what?

The moore I spend time here the more I am convinced that you simply cannot cannot cannot CANNOT convince politically-identified people of ANYTHING !!!!

I've flipped my positions on a few subjects. Oh, and there are some young impressionable people around here who haven't been politically identified as of yet.

Keep the faith!
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
post #289 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
You know what?

The moore I spend time here the more I am convinced that you simply cannot cannot cannot CANNOT convince politically-identified people of ANYTHING !!!!
No matter how rationally argued and reasonable your presentation is!! It is the same for those who are proud of their Identification with the Left as well as those on the Right!

they would argue that the sky does not seem blue on a cloudy day if it ran counter to their rigid ideology

My time here, with Trumpt and SDW and Naples has made me lose faith in human reason and willingness to think things through . . .

how does this apply to Moore?
His film will remain 'trash' for people who want it to be no matter what . . .and it will remain 'great' for those who want it to be no matter . . . .

It all is very disheartening . . .


Take heart Pfflam.

What you're seeing is the last gasp of the Bush years ( I hope but I'm pretty positive about this ).

They're desperate now as the election grows closer and as more and more ( I could have said Moore and made a pun )stuff comes out.

Just stand firm. It'll only get worse as Nov. draws near.

However it could be soon after that it will be unfashionable to align yourself with Bush. People don't exactly look at Nixon in a positive ( hindsight ) light.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #290 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam

The moore I spend time here the more I am convinced that you simply cannot cannot cannot CANNOT convince politically-identified people of ANYTHING !!!!
No matter how rationally argued and reasonable your presentation is!! It is the same for those who are proud of their Identification with the Left as well as those on the Right!

they would argue that the sky does not seem blue on a cloudy day if it ran counter to their rigid ideology

My time here, with Trumpt and SDW and Naples has made me lose faith in human reason and willingness to think things through . . .

how does this apply to Moore?
His film will remain 'trash' for people who want it to be no matter what . . .and it will remain 'great' for those who want it to be no matter . . . .

It all is very disheartening . . .

I feel the same way. Democrats are blind to the fact that their party is no different than the Republicans. Without Democratic support, Republicans would not have passed: resolution to authorize Bush to attack Iraq, tax cuts for the wealthy, the patriot act, "partial-birth" abortion ban, hundreds of right-wing appointments and numerous other things.

www.votenader.org
post #291 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by Existence
I feel the same way. Democrats are blind to the fact that their party is no different than the Republicans. Without Democratic support, Republicans would have passed: resolution to authorize Bush to attack Iraq, tax cuts for the wealthy, the patriot act, "partial-birth" abortion ban, hundreds of right-wing appointments and numerous other things.

www.votenader.org

and yet you seem to me to be exhibit A of the lefty-identified individual, who will not listen to reason in the face of potentially calamitous outcome in November.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #292 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
The moore I spend time here the more I am convinced that you simply cannot cannot cannot CANNOT convince politically-identified people of ANYTHING !!!!
No matter how rationally argued and reasonable your presentation is!! It is the same for those who are proud of their Identification with the Left as well as those on the Right!

This is true a lot of the time, but it is still possible to make a reasonable, reasoned argument to an intelligent person and at least hope that he or she will think about what you have said.

The problem with partisan politics is that all too often people choose a side and argue along those lines even if they have not given deep personal thought to a particular issue. It's an easy trap to fall into, because it allows you to use your brain to argue a point (fun, easy to get caught up in) but saves you having to make decisions about how you really feel on each issue as it stands alone (tough, calls for frequent introspection and possible questioning of other values).

The only people I truly despair of are those who obviously NEVER listen to anything that might fall outside their own carefully constructed worldview.
post #293 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
and yet you seem to me to be exhibit A of the lefty-identified individual, who will not listen to reason in the face of potentially calamitous outcome in November.

The outcome will be calamitous with either Bush or Kerry. For example, Clinton was far worse than H.W. Bush when it came to his war on mothers, NAFTA/WTO and budget cutting with social programs.

You obviously don't get it.
post #294 of 407
Hey, I've got an idea. Why doesn't everybody change their signature to "you obviously don't get it!"?

Liberal use of this phrase germinates rational, even-toned discussion. Case in point: this thread.
Dual 2Ghz G5, Single 2Ghz Xserve G5, Dual 1Ghz QS G4, Single 1.25Ghz MDD G4.
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Dual 2Ghz G5, Single 2Ghz Xserve G5, Dual 1Ghz QS G4, Single 1.25Ghz MDD G4.
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post #295 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac People don't exactly look at Nixon in a positive ( hindsight ) light.

More schools integrated under him, introduced the EPA, put a man on the moon, ended the Vietnam War (quagmire) that Kennedy and Johnson had going.

But the only thing folks remember is a bunch of tapes...
post #296 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by JimDreamworx
More schools integrated under him, introduced the EPA, put a man on the moon, ended the Vietnam War (quagmire) that Kennedy and Johnson had going.

But the only thing folks remember is a bunch of tapes...

And that little bit about him ordering the illegal killing of 150,000 Cambodians. But that doesn't matter since those are brown people. You're right.
post #297 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
F911 vs. Passion of the Christ...similarities abound in the fanatiscm exhibited for either movie. \

Maybe the big Summer Blockbuster theme for this year is Attack of the Cult Followings?

When's the next Star Wars come out, anyway? We really could have used it to tone things down in movieland this year.

I've seen both of those two offerings. Moore's movie provides a rare. left leaning spin to a selection of current affairs, in stark contrast to 95% of the remainder of the media which is controlled by conservative white men in suits, answering to big advertising also controlled by conservative white men in suits.That is a fact of life, no conspiracy needed. Sure, F-911 is a breath of different air, although not necessarily fresh, but for some us including myself, a very welcome one. Overall, however, its like taking on a hurricane with a hairdryer.

The Passion of the Christ on the other hand, a spin on the crucifixion, is a different beast. Passion is blatant and shameless spiritual blackmail via grossly exaggerated physical violence towards one man, two thousand years ago, with very little reference, wildly out of context to the historical record, in order to evangelize and win converts; F911 is a lightweight, easy to watch, occasionally humorous effort, dealing with current, verifiable facts and incidents to evangelize and win converts,
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #298 of 407
Maybe, but now the polarities have been set, sides drawn (in children's thick markers, but drawn nonetheless):

It is now:
Moore vs Christ
Evil vs Good
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #299 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Maybe, but now the polarities have been set, sides drawn (in children's thick markers, but drawn nonetheless):

It is now:
Moore vs Christ
Evil vs Good

Moore vs Christ? Huh? Michael Moore may look like a fat slob and has enraged some folk in breaking the unwritten rules by not conforming with public's expectation of the classic, handsome, cleancut, sanitized star requisite in todays film entertainment business. But EVIL? If Christ was all good, then is your evaluation of Moore all evil?.

For a simplistic, but relevant exercise, compare the BushCorp philosophy to that of the MooreCorp and you tell me who is more "Christ like"? Who is all about elitism, unparalleled greed, arbitrary hatred towards certain minorities, waging unnecessary war, killing thousands of innocents, authorizing torture, imposition of Orwellian Newspeak, anti-responsible environmental stewardship, and the wholesale promotion of fear. Moore, at his worst is an opportunist who is enjoying his 15 minute allotment, using his skills in whatever way he can to counter the most dangerous, powerful and manipulative regime for over half a century.

To put it another way. I don't know what Mr Moore's personal spirituality is...he may be an atheist for all I know, and there is nothing wrong with that. (Most atheists I know are the most moral and decent people I have ever met). But Bush has publicly worn his "Christianity" badge on his chest for a number of years, and I cannot name a single aspect of George W. Bush's political message that has anything in common with the teachings of Jesus Christ. In fact, they are 180º in opposition.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #300 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
Moore vs Christ? Huh? Michael Moore may look like a fat slob and has enraged some folk in breaking the unwritten rules by not conforming with public's expectation of the classic, handsome, cleancut, sanitized star requisite in todays film entertainment business. But EVIL? If Christ was all good, then is your evaluation of Moore all evil?.

For a simplistic, but relevant exercise, compare the BushCorp philosophy to that of the MooreCorp and you tell me who is more "Christ like"? Who is all about elitism, unparalleled greed, arbitrary hatred towards certain minorities, waging unnecessary war, killing thousands of innocents, authorizing torture, imposition of Orwellian Newspeak, anti-responsible environmental stewardship, and the wholesale promotion of fear. Moore, at his worst is an opportunist who is enjoying his 15 minute allotment, using his skills in whatever way he can to counter the most dangerous, powerful and manipulative regime for over half a century.

To put it another way. I don't know what Mr Moore's personal spirituality is...he may be an atheist for all I know, and there is nothing wrong with that. (Most atheists I know are the most moral and decent people I have ever met). But Bush has publicly worn his "Christianity" badge on his chest for a number of years, and I cannot name a single aspect of George W. Bush's political message that has anything in common with the teachings of Jesus Christ. In fact, they are 180º in opposition.

Take is easy there fella . . .

I am pointing out the way in which the rhetoric is setting up a dichotomy . . .
Once these positions are set down they will only become increasingly rote and ossified.
'F-911 is to the Left what Passion was to the Right' - so says the rhetoric . . .
a false dichotomy, or rather, merely slightly true.
But the manner in which it is filling the debate, it will increasingly become accepted truth . . . and with that, you have the implied perception that a film that glorifies Jesus is in natural Opposition to a film critiquing the President . . . the catagories are being drawn and they fall into a simple Good/Bad; Black/White etc . .
It simply remains, once the rhetorical catagories are set and behind the scenes, to choose a side
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #301 of 407
Well it appears Fahrenheit's chances of being number one this week are slim and none. Spiderman 2 opened with 40 million in one night. So that is only 5 million more in one night than Fahrenheit has earned total so far.

Bye bye Mickey

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #302 of 407
Moore is simply the left's Art Bell.

He sees "things".

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #303 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Moore is simply the left's Art Bell.

He sees "things".

differance, Art was entertaining, and funny, he had a fun, entertaining product, he made freaks be freaks and regular people laugh at him.

Moore on the other hand, is just hate mongering, and for some reason the Dems love it.
You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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post #304 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by a_greer
differance, Art was entertaining, and funny, he had a fun, entertaining product, he made freaks be freaks and regular people laugh at him.

Moore on the other hand, is just hate mongering, and for some reason the Dems love it.

Because liberals hate America and want it to be overrun by terrorists and despise decent people and want them to be enslaved and are generally so incredibly filled with hatred, yes, irrational hatred that they can barely speak so choked are they with bile and rage.

They are so dangerously unhinged with their hatred and all that they should be killed, each and every one of them, lined up and shot in the face because they are so hateful, left to die in the dirt like the dogs they are, their bodies piled up in broken heaps and covered with shit so then there will be no more hate in America.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #305 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Because liberals hate America and want it to be overrun by terrorists and despise decent people and want them to be enslaved and are generally so incredibly filled with hatred, yes, irrational hatred that they can barely speak so choked are they with bile and rage.

They are so dangerously unhinged with their hatred and all that they should be killed, each and every one of them, lined up and shot in the face because they are so hateful, left to die in the dirt like the dogs they are, their bodies piled up in broken heaps and covered with shit so then there will be no more hate in America.

"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #306 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Well it appears Fahrenheit's chances of being number one this week are slim and none. Spiderman 2 opened with 40 million in one night. So that is only 5 million more in one night than Fahrenheit has earned total so far.
Bye bye Mickey
Nick

Trumpt, you have some unrealistically high expectations of Fahrenheit yes? Look at the competition: Spiderman is a blockbuster megabudget universally rated feature movie taken from an established famous story, with big name stars, presented by mega corp Sony Entertainment, and playing in a near record 4,152 theaters, and practically every kid in the nation will be watching it over the next couple of weeks. On the other hand, F-911 is a documentary. for crying out loud, it is R-rated, with a subject matter that most kids are not drawn to, the budget is relatively tiny in comparison, (I believe it was edited in Final Cut Pro on a Macintosh!), it is playing in 832 theaters (that is a mere 20% of the theaters Spiderman opened in), and there isno real star attraction, apart from Moore himself, who is neither a sex symbol (!!!!) nor an actor, and the other known personalities are a bunch of 2nd rate crooks.

So, all in all, I reckon Michael Moore's effort is pretty damned good!
He came from nowhere, at first he didn't know one end of a camera from the other, and he got stuck into his career and made his own wealth, all off his own initiative, in sharp contrast to the man he is criticizing in F-911, the silver-spooned, rich-from-birth, daddy's boy of a president, who has failed in every business venture he got into. I have always understood that conservatives value hard work, building up businesses, turning a profit, aka the "American Dream" concept. Mr Moore's effort looks most representative of that noble ideal....isn't it a little duplicitous that conservatives are slamming him for it?
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #307 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Because liberals hate America and want it to be overrun by terrorists and despise decent people and want them to be enslaved and are generally so incredibly filled with hatred, yes, irrational hatred that they can barely speak so choked are they with bile and rage.

They are so dangerously unhinged with their hatred and all that they should be killed, each and every one of them, lined up and shot in the face because they are so hateful, left to die in the dirt like the dogs they are, their bodies piled up in broken heaps and covered with shit so then there will be no more hate in America.

Welcome to the world's largest strawman competition.


Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #308 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Because liberals hate America and want it to be overrun by terrorists and despise decent people and want them to be enslaved and are generally so incredibly filled with hatred, yes, irrational hatred that they can barely speak so choked are they with bile and rage.

They are so dangerously unhinged with their hatred and all that they should be killed, each and every one of them, lined up and shot in the face because they are so hateful, left to die in the dirt like the dogs they are, their bodies piled up in broken heaps and covered with shit so then there will be no more hate in America.

We know from what side Michael Moore drew inspiration.



"...Strike me down with all of your hatred..."(.wav file)

"...your hate has made you powerful.."
post #309 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Well it appears Fahrenheit's chances of being number one this week are slim and none. Spiderman 2 opened with 40 million in one night. So that is only 5 million more in one night than Fahrenheit has earned total so far.

Bye bye Mickey

Nick

Sorry "Nicky", but even Spidey 2 didn't do as well as 911's opening based on the per screen average.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #310 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by Existence
And that little bit about him ordering the illegal killing of 150,000 Cambodians. But that doesn't matter since those are brown people. You're right.

Oh, no, I wasn't justifying a President getting involved in a war and having people killed. Just pointing out some good things he did.

ANY President that initiates any conflict that results in the death of even one life is guilty and evil.
post #311 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Take is easy there fella . . .

I am pointing out the way in which the rhetoric is setting up a dichotomy . . .
Once these positions are set down they will only become increasingly rote and ossified.
'F-911 is to the Left what Passion was to the Right' - so says the rhetoric . . .
a false dichotomy, or rather, merely slightly true.
But the manner in which it is filling the debate, it will increasingly become accepted truth . . . and with that, you have the implied perception that a film that glorifies Jesus is in natural Opposition to a film critiquing the President . . . the catagories are being drawn and they fall into a simple Good/Bad; Black/White etc . .
It simply remains, once the rhetorical catagories are set and behind the scenes, to choose a side

Look alot of people may be passionate about their beliefs ( I know I am ).

Everything I've heard commented by people who have seen the film ( I've yet to but will ) idicates that it wasn't anything they didn't know before.

This probably means that the people who think Bush was right think the film is trash. The others think it's great because it agrees with their beliefs.

As always in life you have to go with what you know.

If a film came out vindicating Bush's actions I'd give it a chance also But I would need solid evidence to convince me otherwise. So far the Bush supporters have offered nothing but excuses and rhetoric. So at this late date I don't see that as forthcoming.

Nothing in this world is black or white but when push comes to shove sometimes your position has to be.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #312 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
We know from what side Michael Moore drew inspiration.



"...Strike me down with all of your hatred..."(.wav file)

"...your hate has made you powerful.."




God! Didn't they get this part of the film when they were kids?

Of course I was thirty when I viewed this but I'd seen similar parables before.

Great example though.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #313 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Sorry "Nicky", but even Spidey 2 didn't do as well as 911's opening based on the per screen average.

Well are you going to let Spiderman have more than a day?

Talk about jumping to your quick conclusions.

Fahrenheit went into wide release on Friday and averaged $9868 per screen. Spiderman 2 opened on Wednesday and averaged $9741. Of course Spiderman 2 should be given then until the weekend to truly compare apples to apples.

But if you want to compare the limited, 2 screen release, that isn't the same type of comparision. Limited vs wide.

Nick(y) (as in Darling)

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #314 of 407
I'm a little perplexed as to why anyone is even bothering with bringing up spider-man vs. fahrenheit, I don't think any reasonable person ( nyuk nyuk nyuk) thought that fahrenheit would top a major blockbuster super summer movie like spider-man, particularly when Fahrenheit was rated R. \

The fact that Fahrenheit has done so well on the very limited number of screens it's been on, says something. The fact that spider-man did so well on such a large number of screens is just business as usual ( oh cliches!)

Spider-man 2, the first sequel to an immensely popular movie, of course it's going to be the number 1 movie. Heh, although, Fahrenheit is a sequel of sorts, in that it's the next film from the notorious michael moore, so that right there probably supplied a very large portion of his opening revenues.

Eitherway, it's a pretty ridiculous "comparison" to begin with, ultimately, WHO CARES?!
orange you just glad?
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orange you just glad?
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post #315 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
But if you want to compare the limited, 2 screen release, that isn't the same type of comparision. Limited vs wide.

Actually, it's been you who is trying to compare the two releases.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #316 of 407
I just took my son to his first movie on the 4th of July, Fahrenheit 9/11. It was a really entertaining and moving film. It's not just about Bush's ties to the Bin Laden family and oil. A lot of the movie was spent on US soldiers, and it was not soldier bashing.

I was curious so I checked out his website. Here is what he had to say about this past week.

Sunday, July 4th, 2004
My First Wild Week with "Fahrenheit 9/11"... By Michael Moore

Friends,

Where do I begin? This past week has knocked me for a loop. "Fahrenheit 9/11," the #1 movie in the country, the largest grossing documentary ever. My head is spinning. Didn't we just lose our distributor 8 weeks ago? Did Karl Rove really fail to stop this? Is Bush packing?

Each day this week I was given a new piece of information from the press that covers Hollywood, and I barely had time to recover from the last tidbit before the next one smacked me upside the head:

** More people saw "Fahrenheit 9/11" in one weekend than all the people who saw "Bowling for Columbine" in 9 months.

** "Fahrenheit 9/11" broke "Rocky IIIs" record for the biggest box office opening weekend ever for any film that opened in less than a thousand theaters.

** "Fahrenheit 9/11" beat the opening weekend of "Return of the Jedi."

** "Fahrenheit 9/11" instantly went to #2 on the all-time list for largest per-theater average ever for a film that opened in wide-release.

How can I ever thank all of you who went to see it? These records are mind-blowing. They have sent shock waves through Hollywood and, more importantly, through the White House.

But it didn't just stop there. The response to the movie then went into the Twilight Zone. Surfing through the dial I landed on the Fox broadcasting network which was airing the NASCAR race live last Sunday to an audience of millions of Americans -- and suddenly the announcers were talking about how NASCAR champ Dale Earnhardt, Jr. took his crew to see Fahrenheit 9/11 the night before. FOX sportscaster Chris Myers delivered Earnhardts review straight out of his mouth and into the heartland of America: He said hey, it'll be a good bonding experience no matter what your political belief. It's a good thing as an American to go see. Whoa! NASCAR fans you cant go deeper into George Bush territory than that! White House moving vans START YOUR ENGINES!

Then there was Roger Friedman from the Fox News Channel giving our film an absolutely glowing review, calling it a really brilliant piece of work, and a film that members of all political parties should see without fail. Richard Goldstein of the Village Voice surmised that Bush is already considered a goner so Rupert Murdoch might be starting to curry favor with the new administration. I don't know about that, but Ive never heard a decent word toward me from Fox. So, after I was revived, I wondered if a love note to me from Sean Hannity was next.

How about Lettermans Top Ten List: Top Ten George W. Bush Complaints About "Fahrenheit 9/11":

10. That actor who played the President was totally unconvincing

9. It oversimplified the way I stole the election

8. Too many of them fancy college-boy words

7. If Michael Moore had waited a few months, he could have included the part where I get him deported

6. Didn't have one of them hilarious monkeys who smoke cigarettes and gives people the finger

5. Of all Michael Moore's accusations, only 97% are true

4. Not sure - - I passed out after a piece of popcorn lodged in my windpipe

3. Where the hell was Spider-man?

2. Couldn't hear most of the movie over Cheney's foul mouth

1. I thought this was supposed to be about dodgeball

But it was the reactions and reports we received from theaters around the country that really sent me over the edge. One theatre manager after another phoned in to say that the movie was getting standing ovations as the credits rolled in places like Greensboro, NC and Oklahoma City -- and that they were having a hard time clearing the theater afterwards because people were either too stunned or they wanted to sit and talk to their neighbors about what they had just seen. In Trumbull, CT, one woman got up on her seat after the movie and shouted "Let's go have a meeting!" A man in San Francisco took his shoe off and threw it at the screen when Bush appeared at the end. Ladies church groups in Tulsa were going to see it, and weeping afterwards.

It was this last group that gave lie to all the yakking pundits who, before the movie opened, declared that only the hard-core "choir" would go to see "Fahrenheit 9/11." They couldn't have been more wrong. Theaters in the Deep South and the Midwest set house records for any film theyd ever shown. Yes, it even sold out in Peoria. And Lubbock, Texas. And Anchorage, Alaska!

Newspaper after newspaper wrote stories in tones of breathless disbelief about people who called themselves Independents and Republicans walking out of the movie theater shaken and in tears, proclaiming that they could not, in good conscience, vote for George W. Bush. The New York Times wrote of a conservative Republican woman in her 20s in Pensacola, Florida who cried through the film, and told the reporter: It really makes me question what I feel about the president... it makes me question his motives

Newsday reported on a self-described ardent Bush/Cheney supporter who went to see the film on Long Island, and his quiet reaction afterwards. He said, "It's really given me pause to think about what's really going on. There was just too much - too much to discount." The man then bought three more tickets for another showing of the film.

The Los Angeles Times found a mother who had supported [Bush] fiercely at a theater in Des Peres, Missouri: Emerging from Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11, her eyes wet, Leslie Hanser said she at last understood. My emotions are just.... She trailed off, waving her hands to show confusion. I feel like we haven't seen the whole truth before."

All of this had to be the absolute worst news for the White House to wake up to on Monday morning. I guess they were in such a stupor, they "gave" Iraq back to, um, Iraq two days early!

News editors told us that they were being "bombarded" with e-mails and calls from the White House (read: Karl Rove), trying to spin their way out of this mess by attacking it and attacking me. Bush spokesman Dan Bartlett had told the White House press corps that the movie was "outrageously false" -- even though he said he hadn't seen the movie. He later told CNN that "This is a film that doesn't require us to actually view it to know that it's filled with factual inaccuracies." At least they're consistent. They never needed to see a single weapon of mass destruction before sending our kids off to die.

Many news shows were more than eager to buy the White House spin. After all, that is a big part of what "Fahrenheit" is about -- how the lazy, compliant media bought all the lies from the Bush administration about the need to invade Iraq. They took the Kool-Aid offered by the White House and rarely, if ever, did our media ask the hard questions that needed to be asked before the war started.

Because the movie "outs" the mainstream media for their failures and their complicity with the Bush administration -- who can ever forget their incessant, embarrassing cheerleading as the troops went off to war, as though it was all just a game -- the media was not about to let me get away with anything now resembling a cultural phenomenon. On show after show, they went after me with the kind of viciousness you would have hoped they had had for those who were lying about the necessity for invading a sovereign nation that was no threat to us. I don't blame our well-paid celebrity journalists -- they look like a bunch of ass-kissing dopes in my movie, and I guess I'd be pretty mad at me, too. After all, once the NASCAR fans see "Fahrenheit 9/11," will they ever believe a single thing they see on ABC/NBC/CBS news again?

In the next week or so, I will recount my adventures through the media this past month (I will also be posting a full FAQ on my website soon so that you can have all the necessary backup and evidence from the film when you find yourself in heated debate with your conservative brother-in-law!). For now, please know the following: Every single fact I state in "Fahrenheit 9/11" is the absolute and irrefutable truth. This movie is perhaps the most thoroughly researched and vetted documentary of our time. No fewer than a dozen people, including three teams of lawyers and the venerable one-time fact-checkers from The New Yorker went through this movie with a fine-tooth comb so that we can make this guarantee to you. Do not let anyone say this or that isn't true. If they say that, they are lying. Let them know that the OPINIONS in the film are mine, and anyone certainly has a right to disagree with them. And the questions I pose in the movie, based on these irrefutable facts, are also mine. And I have a right to ask them. And I will continue to ask them until they are answered.

In closing, let me say that the most heartening response to the film has come from our soldiers and their families. Theaters in military towns across the country reported packed houses. Our troops know the truth. They have seen it first-hand. And many of them could not believe that here was a movie that was TRULY on their side -- the side of bringing them home alive and never sending them into harms way again unless it's the absolute last resort. Please take a moment to read this wonderful story from the daily paper in Fayetteville, NC, where Fort Bragg is located. It broke my heart to read this, the reactions of military families and the comments of an infantrymans wife publicly backing my movie -- and it gave me the resolve to make sure as many Americans as possible see this film in the coming weeks.

Thank you again, all of you, for your support. Together we did something for the history books. My apologies to "Return of the Jedi." We'll make it up by producing "Return of the Texan to Crawford" in November.

May the farce be with you, but not for long,

Michael Moore www.michaelmoore.com
mmflint@aol.com

P.S. You can read letters from people around the country recounting their own experiences at the theater, and their reactions to the film by going here.

P.P.S. Also, Im going to start blogging! Tonight! Come on over and check it out.
post #317 of 407
So Moore is saying that conservatives are more open minded and ready to consider alternative world views from "the other side" than he is?
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #318 of 407
$100 million?

"Last weekend's top film, Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11," held up strongly, taking in an estimated $17 million from Friday to Saturday. Doubling its theater count to 1,725, "Fahrenheit 9/11" pushed its total to $56.1 million and has a good shot at becoming the first documentary to top the $100 million mark." -CNN article
post #319 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
So Moore is saying that conservatives are more open minded and ready to consider alternative world views from "the other side" than he is?

Even I get tired of hearing myself say this, but the world is not made of equal and opposite "views". There is such a thing as factually true, and not.

If Michael Moore is presenting facts (and to a large extent he is, the punditry not withstanding), your fake dichotomy would oblige him to adopt false beliefs in order to demonstrate "open mindedness".

Reaction to his film indicates that people are capable of changing their minds when presented with evidence they may not have been aware of.

Part of the reason he made the film is the shameful record of America's mainstream media and its inability to handle information that doesn't conform to the master narrative (every-thing's basically OK, he said/she said, it's all just politics, American is incapable of acting badly out of anything but well intentioned naiveté).

Very little about the Bush admin fits into this ideology, so many people have likely never encountered a sustained, internally consistent critique of its policies. I imagine it's quite a shock.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #320 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Even I get tired of hearing myself say this, but the world is not made of equal and opposite "views". There is such a thing as factually true, and not.

If Michael Moore is presenting facts (and to a large extent he is, the punditry not withstanding), your fake dichotomy would oblige him to adopt false beliefs in order to demonstrate "open mindedness".

Reaction to his film indicates that people are capable of changing their minds when presented with evidence they may not have been aware of.

Part of the reason he made the film is the shameful record of America's mainstream media and its inability to handle information that doesn't conform to the master narrative (every-thing's basically OK, he said/she said, it's all just politics, American is incapable of acting badly out of anything but well intentioned naiveté).

Very little about the Bush admin fits into this ideology, so many people have likely never encountered a sustained, internally consistent critique of its policies. I imagine it's quite a shock.

I think what addabox is saying in the first part of this post is true and important. It is also a mistake that seems easier to fall into when you spend alot of time on BBS boards: the world is not made up of equally false sides.

We may not be able to talk in terms of Truth with a capital 'T', but we can detirmine when something is falsifiable to a credible degree: in other words, it is an actual possibility to be wrong about something . . . in fact I would venture to say that most of us are wrong almost all of the time --not just taking a position, but truly wrong.

I am not sure that 'factuality' is such an easy thing to be absolute about, as one person's facts will mean differently for another person (I try to avoid the word 'fact') . . . but, this doesn't mean that Scott was not the auther of Waverly (or whatever that famous example is) or that saying that it is false that Ceasar crossed the Rubicon simply because one doesn't want it to be true, or one was told otherwise . . . these things will not go away, they can be properly called 'truths', to think them otherwise is to be wrong . . . However, what they mean for someone is an entirely different story . . .

Anyway, endless dialogues with people who twist logic to serve their ideology gives the false impression that merely taking a side is equal to taking the other side but different. . . that its all about style, or cleanlines, or whimpiness factor, or something trite and wrong like that.

anyway . . . its late and I ramble
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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