Michael Moore - Fahrenheit 9/11 (general discussion - merged) - Page 9

AO in a nutshell.

In most cases you are right. But not in the case of Moore. I find it funny that Moore is able to applaud that conservatives have the ability to consider other point of views while he clearly isn´thimself. Moore have a lot of good points but he sees ghosts everywhere and I see NO ability from his side to try to see the case from the other side. Thats what I find funny. There is no black and white but Moore is as one sided as you possible can get in presenting the current political situation in US.

All you have to do is to look at the ABC interview with George Stephanopoulos. His explanation about the Bin Ladens alligations and about what the member of the Congress said and didnt say is so far fetched that it shame the rest of what is said in the movie.

And just to clear things up try look at posts made by me about the current war against terrorism. I´m not excatly on Bush side to put it mildly.

The pure and simple truth is rarely pure and never simple.
-Oscar Wilde



Farenhite 7/11 is glib whitewash but out by a big corporation. If MM wanted to get the word out he would have streamed the movie over the internet for free. He is selling mass-produced discontent, owns his million dollar homes, etc, etc, etc.

Everbody go watch Evita again, same story, different gender.

http://www.suntimes.com/ebert/ebert_...06/062401.html

From the review :

-----------------------------------------------------------

"Fahrenheit 9/11" is a compelling, persuasive film, at odds with the White House effort to present Bush as a strong leader. He comes across as a shallow, inarticulate man, simplistic in speech and inauthentic in manner. If the film is not quite as electrifying as Moore's "Bowling for Columbine," that may be because Moore has toned down his usual exuberance and was sobered by attacks on the factual accuracy of elements of "Columbine"; playing with larger stakes, he is more cautious here, and we get an op-ed piece, not a stand-up routine. But he remains one of the most valuable figures on the political landscape, a populist rabble-rouser, humorous and effective; the outrage and incredulity in his film are an exhilarating response to Bush's determined repetition of the same stubborn sound bites.

-----------------------------------------------------------



Nuff said!

Why not move to Cuba ya goddammed pinko-commie hippie.

This is America where big corporations, self-made millionaires and smug, fat people are welcomed with open arms.

Why deny him the right to earn a living just because he is trying to level the political playing field a little, from a center/left point of view? btw...it's Fahrenheit 9-11 (!)

I don't know about you, but I find both music and video on the net a very poor replacement. Give me a theater with people and an atmosphere any day: I would rather put up with waiting in line a few minutes for a ticket to see it properly, with quality sound and picture, than a tiny, pathetic, pixellated compressed version on a monitor which will get interrupted at some point, or more..

7-eleven?

Oh the irony.

You know what. In 20 years when k-12 are asked what 911 they will say "the alarm number" or "where they buy their Jolt Cola" and we will be sitting here as 50 year olds and complainthat kids nowadays don´t know any history.

Will there be a 7-eleven in the new world trade tovers? Perhaps where the hanging garens were suppose to be.

what's the matter with you people!!! I was JOKING!!!!

Seems that Spinsanity has gotten around to Moore's latest work.

Spinsanity

The summary says it best.


Nick

He has it available for a free download.

Not everyone has the time or inclination to download an entire movie off the net though. Some people do like to watch movies on the big screen too.

eh?

Oh I think they'll remember it because of school. They'll just think it happened in 1960's.

And yes when you get to 50 you remember lots of things from your 20's and 30's that seemed terribly important at the time.

what!?





The point! -----> It was done for money!!

I just saw the movie.
Is it really a documentary or is it a political commercial?
It's definately one-sided and created exactly the way the director intended for it to be made. From his point of view.
Ken Burns' baseball was a documentary.
This movie was entertaining.
Did it piss me off?
Sure.
I can't stand rich people who use poor people to make themselves richer.
The director made Bush to be a baffoon, Cheyney to be a typical business jerk and other top government officials to be idiots.
The rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

So, who's really telling the truth?
Who is to believe?
I guess people will believe whatever they want ot believe.

As for me, I believe the one comon denominator in this whole mess of things is money. Money money money money....

Documentaries don't have to be "objective" and unentertaining. On that note, I didn't believe it was butter either.

dmz what do you mean by your post. Surely you can't be implying he did it for the money, considering he has said and so has Lions Gate that they don't mind people pirating the film. Of course he's not 100% altruistic, almost no one besides maybe Mother Theresa and Ghandi are, and if you think about it, even they aren't since they think by doing "God's work" in this lifetime they are buying themselves a cozy seat in "Heaven."

OK just watched the film. ONE thing they should have added: this. At the end, right after Bush's stumbling "Fool me...uh..." quote. http://www.musicforamerica.org/misc/...s/bushjoke.mov

Wow. He is a heartless bastard. How can you defend someone who jokes about sending a thousand Americans to their death for oil money.

Nick speaking of fancy concepts like strawmen, let's try not to change the subject shall we. This thread isn't about opening weekend profits and Spiderman 2. No one here cares how much profits the film is making we just want everyone to see the truth that this administration has desperately been trying to hide. I learned quite a few new things in the film. I mean I knew his companies dealt with Saudis but not to that extent. FOOTAGE DOESN'T LIE. You can see him and his dad schmoozing with Saudis. And yes that's where the 9/11 terrorists came from.

I also like how plainly obvious Moore and his interviewee the retired FBI agent make the fact that Bush flew bin Laden's family out of the US way out of line and not following correct investigative procedure.

Again: Bush is a heartless bastard. http://www.musicforamerica.org/misc/...s/bushjoke.mov

Something I didn't like about the movie that was misleading was that it implied that soldiers decided to abuse Iraqis on their own. That undoubtedly occurred but a lot of the abuse and deaths were ordered. Things like this can't happen without support/knowledge of superior officers, all the way to Bush and Rumsfeld. It's like the movie Serpico. THEY KNEW.

Prisoners orderd abused.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...&oneclick=true

Prisoners were ordered held "off the books" so no one, like the Red Cross would find out.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5226957/

Then we covered it up.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...oner.abuse.ap/

Then they defended and rationalized and justified.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in617105.shtml

queue: Now Nick, SDW and Scott will rationalize torture.

I thought we were benevolent liberators working for freer societies, where the President didn't control the media, snoop on its own citizens, and attack other countries and torture innocent people? Go ahead. Defend that. It makes you look like a sick person. No. It makes you a sick person. Look at a picture of an Iraqi baby or American soldier with no arms or legs and tell me it's worth it. The picture that grasped me was the kid whose face was cut up from who knows what, with one tear. The tear, it grabbed me. Damn.

Hahahahaha, classic.

Footage doesn't lie. How about a nice logical fallacy. A = B, therefore B = C. Let's try it on for size with reasoning that you aren't so blind to seeing, in fact that you would likely declare to be completely stupid and idiotic.

Most of the terrorists were from Saudi Arabia, therefore all Saudi Arabians must be terrorists...

Right I mean that is what you just said above. Talk about your ultimate form of racism.

The profit aspect wasn't even my angle. Others were remarking about how "big" Fahrenheit was playing in terms of buzz and people seeing it. My point was that it wasn't really that big at all when you compared it to other films this year. In fact it will probably do about the same amount of business as that cultural phenom.. Scooby Doo. Appropriate since the level of mystery, clues and factualness is about the same.

Nick

You mean you wish this was true. For a documentary it's doing quite well!

He's publicly stated that he doesn't mind people downloading it off of the internet.

yes, I know that, but that's different than "he has it available free for download"

HE isn't serving it or having it served, it's still pirates that are distributing it, unless he actually is, which is why I said eh? because I had only heard he was cool with it being downloaded, not that he was actually providing people a means to download it. additionally, the only copies you can find online are shitty shaky cams.(that may have changed since it came out)

He spent a lot of money making this film . . . as all films are expensive . . . he probably owes his life to Disney . . . well, he probably did for a while there . . . I'm sure that he needed to make money in order to be able to continue making films . . . distribution and PR through a major distributor also costs lots of money, and, it guarantees that he will get his film seen . . . how many people actually watch full length downloaded movies? not many
and how many people have seen 'Uncovered' even though it has been going around the country in free screenings? not that many . . . I haven't.

I downloaded a very poor quality dub of just 'part1' and it took hours and hours . . . I won't watch it till after I see it at a theatre though . .

Nick nice try. FOOTAGE DOESN'T LIE. BUSH JOKED ABOUT HIS WMD LIES. WHICH COST THOUSANDS OF LIVES. I'm sure those families would be a little pissed if you mentioned your "logical fallacy" and "A to B to C" bullshit to them. Like the woman in Fahrenheit who knew "This is all staged! All staged!"

And I just finished watching Wag the Dog. Everyone go watch it! Made in 97, amazingly a year before the Lewinsky scandal, where Clinton used some war maneuvering (or so Republicans said, he was actually um fighting terrorism) to escape the media. Very interesting, this film. Just like The Siege, which predicted 9-11 and our reaction. These are two potent, powerful films. I would say almost more so in their way that they were made before events actually happened!

Also I liked Moore's "1984" reference in the film. Ashcroft's real good at singing apparently he even made that song up? At least if he gets fired he'll have another career option.

It's his property. You can download it for free.

By your logic he isn't making it available in theaters either.

Get yourself a copy of BOB ROBERTS.

eh?

Michael Moore does not have the movie available for download, The movie *IS* available for download yes, but michael moore is not making that so. It would still be AVAILABLE for download even if moore said "don't download my movie, you have to see it in theaters"

his blessing means nothing, pirates will be pirates regardless, only now, the guy that went into the theater with the intentions of stealing the movie to put it on the internet, isn't Technically a pirate because moore said it was okay, but, that doesn't change the fact that moore isn't serving it for anyone, or giving it to anyone for free. He's just saying that he wants as many people as possible to see it, if they have to download it, so be it, he has no problems with that, as long as they end up seeing it.

that's a big difference from him making it available to download for free, which implies that he is actively making that so.

I just finished watching Uncovered: The Whole Truth About the Iraq War.

Has anyone here seen it? (edit: I just saw pfflam mention it) It's very good.
Seems like it and F 9/11 would be a good double feature.

Have you seen Happy tree Friends?

I thought it was kind of funny, that they linked to that as a "we also recommend"

The irony is killing me...

Cheney: "And we would have owned the world if it wasn't for those pesky Liberal kids!"

Hooray for the pesky kids. To keep the real thieves in check.

I think you meant to type "EVITA"

(the one with Madonna, Banderas, and Pryce)

By your logic he isn't making it available in theaters either.

he isn't, his distribution company is.


But, my point with the file sharing, is that, moore didn't tell people to go pirate his movie(as in, goto the theater with a camera and film it, then put it on the internet for people to download) he just told people that he's cool with people downloading it.

he didn't have any active role in getting people to go to a theater with a camera and film the movie, then subsequently releasing it on the internet. that was done ENTIRELY WITHOUT HIS INPUT AND WOULD HAVE HAPPENED ANYWAY. Just because he's cool with it doesn't mean that he had anything to do with it happening, HE DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH RELEASING IT ON THE INTERNET.

He doesn't "have it available for download" OTHER PEOPLE(you know, the kind that aren't michael moore) have it available to download , and nothing michael moore says changes that, You said he "has it available for download", which is incorrect. If moore releases an official "michael moore fahrenheit 9/11 online edition" THEN he will have it available for download, until then, your phrasing error, still stands as an error, that would easily be corrected by you editing your post and saying "the movie is available to download" not "he has it available to download"

because he doesn't(unless he does, in which case, a link would be appreciated because I would like to see the fucking movie and the one I already downloaded was super crappy and not worth watching)

No, I haven't and that's truly bizarre.

Exactly.

Do you not see the difference between a commercial distribution company and movie pirates?

Don't you realize that he doesn't own the movie . . . he merely made it . . . if he put it on a server for free-download he would be sued and would probably never be able to make decent sized flms again, that we all could see . . . . his distribution company and his production company are in hock to financial backers . . . and even if, for some unimaginable reason, he did actiually own the movie entirely, he himself is probably in a great deal of debt to crew and facilities companies and etc etc . . .
Also, in the same light, if he did not allow these companies, who 'own' huge amounts of the film, to recoup their investments he would never find backing again . . . unless it were through moveon.org or some such penny pinching means . . .

When you make a big film that is then distributed in a BIG way - not just loading it up on some damn server somewhere - then you are most likely in some serious financial limitations . . .

Good points, I had overlooked that. So, for the purposes of this little argument, Michael moore should mean (something to the effect of) "michael moore, and those that are affiliated with him through business" I apologize for the mistake.

But, Movie Pirates are working independently from michael, he didn't set them up to make available the movie on the internet. Michael Moore(and especially his financial backers, distributors, production company..etc.) has NOT made available his movie on the internet, just by saying that he's alright with people downloading it, is what I'm saying.

I guess you are a little beyond help at this point. But looking at your reasoning, it is easy to see why you enjoy the Moore film.

Nick

You ought to see what Moore will film and claim for a Scooby snack.

Nick