Michael Moore - Fahrenheit 9/11 (general discussion - merged) - Page 11

I saw the movie . . . I was dissapointed in a number of ways:
one, he didn't cover enough of the lead up to the war, the arguments and the relationship to the "Pax Americana" document or the issues around the Office of Special Plans . . .

He also showed good footage from Iraq, but I think that it was rushed and could have been an entirely different film

On that point, There is a rather scathing article in SALON The author invites members of a local military base to see the film and they have severe criticisms that seem pretty on target.
One of them puts his finger on sonething that I didn't even know bothered me until he said it: he called it too "pop" and said that he went from trying to be funny to being serious . . . so the whole thing was not serious enough.

They also point out that their perspective was not shown properly, such as in the scene where a house is being searched, the reasons why they are searching for the "student" are never made clear, and that even young kids and 'soldiers are involved with fighting them . .
They were also very upset about showing the suffering soldiers.

Well, it was an ok film but I think it could have been better.

The absolute best technique he employed as a filmwas NOT showing the now-iconic images of the buildings and planes of the WTC but rather using the sounds . . . it really re-invoked the dread of that event and sidestepped teh accumulated aura that the iconic/images have accumulated.

I agree. There was much left out that should not have been. It was too short. And lots of dumb humor like him driving in an ice cream truck, and his commentary over Bush footage, was annoying and unnecessary.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. The humor is way too important to exclude. Doing that would make the movie far less effective I think.

All work no play makes Jack a dull boy.

Just saw it today and it was better than I thought.

For me the first half was weak to say the least. We now have a new version of why US went to Iraq: To get attention away from the saudi connection between the Bushes and the royal family and the Bin Ladens. Its a different message than the "Neocons wanted to get Iraq for a long long time for ideological reasons" and the petrodollar argument (it actually in some ways contradict Moores argument) and the "we did it ourselves" argument. And I usually don´t use that word much but it was both racial (Iceland as a nation of vikings aso) AND it did stereotype the Bin Ladens (that if someone in the family at one point was at a wedding where Bin Laden was present the whole family in some way is connected to him) and saudi arabia (if most of the hijackers was from saudi arabia the whole country somehow had responsibility for it). The only part that really said anything powerful in this part was the times the administration contradicted itself, but the daily show does that much better.

The last half was excellent. The cross clipping between life in america, putting up flags in the neighbourhood and the situation in Iraq with killed innoncent children aso was brilliant, War zones are often made out to be belonging to another reality. Here it was argued that reality in Iraq and in US is the same and a lost Iraqi lifeis no less than an american one. Following the social worker at her work,talking proudly about her family in the military and then after the death of her son and her at the white house almost made me cry.

Moore is becoming a better director. The black screen during the TwinTower attack and the pictures of the people and the paper falling was almost beautiful in its cruelty. And the wrapping with all the insiders getting make up in the beginning and taking their headpiece of at the end while Moore quoting 1984 was also quite powerful, even if also contradicted the overall theme (do they want neverending war or was Iraq a war per proxy (instead of a war against SA)

Re:the binLaden family ties

I saw an interview today with a woman who was married into the Bin Laden family and left in order to be able to raise her daughters in a free manner.
She was asked if there were ties between teh family and OBL.

She said something to this effect: "well, you know in this family and that part of the world the bond of brotherhood is much too strong for a brother to be ostracized because of his religious ideas'

Which implies that there probably is some contact with the family by OBL still . .

just a point

another point, the black screen was a great and powerful scene in that movie . . . it is a very delecate issue to deal with such a level of horror in an aesthetic format . . . it demands more than aesthetics and yet at the same time aesthetics are always at play . . . how do you treat such a reality without dishonoring it?
The worst thing, perhaps would be to make it into a kitschy iconoc image of heroism and suffering . . . which I think has been done to death . . . I think the best way is to show without adornment or fancy editing or slow-mo and absolutely NO music . . . I think that Moore came close to making a 'Great' decision by not even showing it . . . but ir still rides a fine line, in a sense because he came close to 'making art' out of it . . . an issue which I have some touchiness about . . .

just another point

Lars Von Trier use sound in his films like all other directors to emphasize the emtions in the film. But he often make use of special tricks that are different than others. He often use silence ("the music flee") in very tense passages to make it more powerful. You normally expect very emotional music during those passages. But when you are alone with the situation without music making the "translation" for you it becomes more personal and direct. The non use of the icon images of planes against buildings and falling buildings and the new focus on frustrated people looking up is new. You can´t use the stereotypical version stored in your brain and that forces you to realise the situation once again.

Its an artistic trick but its used to make the scenes more real.

The article I read with her was much more direct. She essentially said that OBL was somewhat idolized for his religious faith, and this after 9/11.