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Michael Moore - Fahrenheit 9/11 (general discussion - merged) - Page 3

post #81 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
visa vi

I really don't think this guy reads.

"All I need to know I learned from Rush."
post #82 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
I really don't think this guy reads.

"All I need to know I learned from Rush."

Golly gee wiz y'all cot me red handed. I be an unedumacated ditto hed.



What are you saying exactly? You quote one phrase and then try to marginalize me by making some wild eyed link to Rush Limbaugh?

That was the reason you wasted the precious electrons, not to mention the time to type it in?

Do you feel good about that post? really . Be honest.
post #83 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I don't see anyone here that is "up in arms", do you guys?I think most are predicting it to be a bunch of clever edits and lies based on his past works. I don't know if that quite qualifies as "up in arm".

I was speaking in general terms and not referring to you specifically. By the way, have you seen any of his past works? Just curious.
I find it interesting, yet not surprising, that you felt that it applied to you and you felt the need to come out and stand up for all neocons.

If the shoe fits....
post #84 of 407

I still haven't seen Columbine . . . i read reviews by non-ultra-right wing critics . . . smart people, who were able to say why Moore tended to exageration in the film, that, and being tired of his schtick has kept me away.

I'll see this film, Im sure there will be places where fact checking might uproot one or two inconcistencies but I don't care . . . I want to see him trash Bush.

I was fully aware of the context for that 'Elite' quote . . . it is obviouse and well known . . . but it is obviouse and well known also that that joke is funny to 90% of the people in the real-time audience because of its truth!!!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #85 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by dviant
How about spinsanity?
http://www.spinsanity.org/topics/#MichaelMoore

I just spent some time at the above page, and poking around other parts of the Spinsanity site.

This seems like a fairly impartial web site -- they go after distortions on the left and the right.

Maybe Michael Moore's responses to some of the criticisms found here would help his case, but I've had my suspicions that Moore was someone who needs to be taken with several large grains of salt, and I think Moore would have a hard time relieving me of said suspicions now.

I've never seen any of Moore's films yet, however. I'd be curious to see how much of the points he's trying to make stand up after accounting for Moore's mistakes and deliberated distortions. It's a shame that finding someone who's passionate, entertaining, and devoted to accuracy is hard to find all in one package. For my money, Al Franken comes closer to that ideal than Moore, though not perfectly so.

I'm going to have to see Fahrenheit 911 no matter what -- I can't turn down a good Bush bashing. I'm already quite convinced that Bush is an incompentent sleaze anyway, based on information from many sources. Even a compentent and honest Bush would be distasteful to me since I so disagree with his publically asserted values. I'll see what Moore has to say about Bush, then see how well it stands up under scrutiny later.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #86 of 407
I can't judge this film yet but my favorite Michael Moore film is Canadian Bacon, staring John Candy and Alan Alda, simply because it's so prescient (especially the bits in it about terrorists). It's fiction unlike some of Moore's contemporary works. The middle east and terrorism are the canada of Canadian Bacon.
post #87 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by Existence
I can't judge this film yet but my favorite Michael Moore film is Canadian Bacon, staring John Candy and Alan Alda, simply because it's so prescient (especially the bits in it about terrorists). It's fiction unlike some of Moore's contemporary works. The middle east and terrorism are the canada of Canadian Bacon.

Like maple syrup, canadian evil ooozes into america. How long can we silence the screams!
orange you just glad?
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orange you just glad?
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post #88 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
The documentary looks pretty good, actually. From what I've read, the film looks interesting enough to actually see it when it comes out. This is coming from someone who has neither read any of Moore's books nor seen his movies. I bet the local 20 screen movie theater will show it-- although they recently devoted 10 screens total to Troy and Shrek 2.



Whatever maximizes profit, I suppose. *shrugs*

I think I'll rent The Fog of War, Elephant, and In America tonight.

Frightening because even I've seen Bowling for Columbine.

I would recommend not watching all those in one night. Good movies, like good food is best when savored, not just consumed.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #89 of 407
OK how about some constructive posting here. First, does anyone have a mirror? That sucks how it's streaming and not a normal trailer like Apple's. Second we need to get Post Counts back so people stop making a bunch of new names like Common Man and Playmaker and posting to back themselves up.
"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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post #90 of 407
It is forum policy that members are not to have multiple accounts. Moderators have all the resources they need to weed out those accounts. I suggest a moderator policy of "outing" secondary accounts from the usual suspects to further discourage this practice.
post #91 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by Aquatic
OK how about some constructive posting here. First, does anyone have a mirror? That sucks how it's streaming and not a normal trailer like Apple's. Second we need to get Post Counts back so people stop making a bunch of new names like Common Man and Playmaker and posting to back themselves up.

Why is this sort of thing asserted so often here? Is it really so hard to believe that more than one or two people on this planet might agree with someone else, regardless of the view held? Why don't you just come outright and say that anyone who disagrees with you must be an extremist?

The mods here can tell if someone is repeatedly posting from the same IP number. In the past they have taken care of such people and would likely do so again in the future.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #92 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
It is forum policy that members are not to have multiple accounts. Moderators have all the resources they need to weed out those accounts. I suggest a moderator policy of "outing" secondary accounts from the usual suspects to further discourage this practice.

Here, here. I say they should investigate this obvious breech and then post their findings right here in this thread. That should lay this to rest post haste.
post #93 of 407
It's not hard to change your IP, or use a different computer. Post Counts were a good balance against that.
"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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post #94 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by Aquatic
It's not hard to change your IP, or use a different computer. Post Counts were a good balance against that.

sure but you can't change your ISP's IP and Subnet, so let's put this to rest already.

I am sick of you pansies accusing everyone that they are cheating, it all sound like whining, now.
post #95 of 407
Sorry to break it to you naples, but it's actually pretty easy to post with a different IP.
post #96 of 407
mms://wm.mindshare.na-central.speedera.net/wm.mindshare.na-central/moore/fahrenheit_911_480.wmv

The above is the address WMP says I played this morning when I played the F911 trailer. It still works...
post #97 of 407
In addition to that, you don't think it's even the slightest bit strange that someone would come to an apple computer discussion forum for the sole purpose of discussing politics.*

Most of the AO-ites post(ed) apple related stuff still, they came here because they are fans of apple computer, and they just kind of got caught up talking in AO about politics almost exclusively. But finding this place, and coming here simply as a place to talk about politics is at least a little bit suspect methinks.

I'm not accusing anyone of doing this, or suggesting that it is happening, but surely you don't think it's not totally unreasonable, given the circumstances.

\


*just to clarify I'm not saying it can't happen, It's just a little weird, and kind of rare. but then again, I don't know how easy it is to find this place since I'm already here, it is on google, but still, I have a hard time picturing someone thinking "I need to find a place to vent about my political opinions, *google* hmm, appleinsider, that sounds perfect!"
orange you just glad?
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post #98 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
You'd rather have him support some protest candidate who can't win, who can only help Bush? That would be logically contradictory.

My response: You bet your ass that's what I'd want of him.

If Michael Moore truly cared for America and really wanted to see change, I would indeed expect him to look towards a protest candidate. Think of what Moore and his great ability to generate press could do to bring light to viable third party candidates. But he doesn't want real change, he just wants Bush gone at any cost. And right now to Moore and the rest of those who dislike Bush it means voting for whomever has the best chance at beating him, not who they actually would support if they cared about the future of their country.

It's the compromises that have gotten us to where we are. Your statement serves to reinforce the idea of compromise, and also vilify those who wish to vote with their hearts and minds and vote 3rd party. You choose to make them seem like a part of the problem, instead of as people looking for a new and better solution. And don't be mistaken and think I believe your type of rancor to be characteristic of one specific party. Were the tables turned I've no doubt the rhetoric would be the same.

Those who care for themselves, others, and their country will seek a candidate who best represents them; be that Bush, Kerry, Nader, etc.. They will not give in to the overwhelming pressure of the two parties and vote for someone for no other reason than they hope their choice will "beat the other guy"©. But people don't vote that way. Because really people don't actually give a shit. Besides, it's so much work trying to actually research an alternative candidate when we can get home from our jobs, sit on our fat asses while we bitch about how bad we have it, and let CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, CNN, MTV, Moore, Hannity, Limbaugh and Franken tell us who we should be voting for. Which is why America is really starting to suck. Because most people only want to taste victory, even if that victory is hollow and by proxy. Change is insignificant other than in the superficial sense.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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post #99 of 407
Well we need Bush gone at any cost, imagine how many species will be lost in the next four years if he is re-elected. No one thinks about the environment when we wage war. It's pretty damn bad. Agent Orange?

Anyway Naples gee you're getting a little touchy eh. How about some input from Common Man and Playmaker. And it's not exactly hard to physically go somewhere and use Internet. Anyway all us liberals we're all just pseudonyms for pfflam!!!
"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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post #100 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by Aquatic
Well we need Bush gone at any cost, imagine how many species will be lost in the next four years if he is re-elected. No one thinks about the environment when we wage war. It's pretty damn bad. Agent Orange?

Anyway Naples gee you're getting a little touchy eh. How about some input from Common Man and Playmaker. And it's not exactly hard to physically go somewhere and use Internet. Anyway all us liberals we're all just pseudonyms for pfflam!!!

Um, fine. How many times have this been brought up in this thread. It's getting old. Get some proof, or shut the hell up.

I post from 3 different computers: 1 at work, 1 at home and my laptop all over the place. But I do it under the same name. I would not have ever even thought of creating a pseudonym until I heard it from someone here. I have nothing to hide as you can tell from my profile, unlike many that are accusing me and others of being duplicitous.

It may be possible and actually happening, but not by me. let's get back to debating the topic and get over it.
post #101 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
My response: You bet your ass that's what I'd want of him.

If Michael Moore truly cared for America and really wanted to see change, I would indeed expect him to look towards a protest candidate.

For Michael Moore, and many other people now, getting Bush out is more than big enough of a change.

A lot of people who had the attitude "Democrats and Republicans? They're all the same! They're all out for big business! They're all power mongers who don't care for the little guy!" may still not be in love with Democrats, but they are now realizing how big a difference there can be between the lesser and the greater of two evils.
Quote:
Think of what Moore and his great ability to generate press could do to bring light to viable third party candidates.

His abilities will be enough to shift opinions a few percentage points, no more.

First of all, he's tarnished his own credibility on more than one occasion.

Second, while he may be influential, he's also divisive. He's viewed as far to the left, and many people would disbelieve him if he said 2+2=4, just because he said it.

The left/right division in this country is very real, and the coming election is will most likely be decided by a few percentage points drifting around in the middle between entrenched camps.
Quote:
But he doesn't want real change, he just wants Bush gone at any cost.

I don't buy the rhetoric that Kerry replacing Bush isn't "real change". It will most certainly be real change.

As for costs, what about protest at any cost? What about the cost of forms of protest that run counter to the protesters own goals?

Many Americans might be disillusioned with the two-party system, but it's not because they're hankering for, oh, a Socialist Worker's Paradise that neither of the two parties is providing.

I'm not saying it's wrong to try to change the two party system -- I'd like to see a lot of changes myself. I'd like to see the notion of "party" severely weakened, and have a system where individual candidates mattered more, and where proportional representation and power rather the "winner takes all" is the most common way of doing things.

But there are effective and ineffective ways to get there. Voting for Nader is an ineffective one. Nader does not appeal to the majority, or even a plurality, of Americans, no matter how displeased or apathetic towards the two parties we might be. In a crude left/right analysis of the current electorate, Kerry appeals to the left, Bush to the right... and Nader? Mostly to the further left.

Call it "voting your conscience" all you like, voting for Nader will suck more votes from Kerry than from Bush, hurting Kerry, helping Bush, and even if you, unlike many of the rest of us, aren't terribly worried about what four more years of Bush could be like, the "return on investment" in future elections for casting a protest vote now isn't likely to be very high, and could in fact be negative.
Quote:
And right now to Moore and the rest of those who dislike Bush it means voting for whomever has the best chance at beating him, not who they actually would support if they cared about the future of their country.

This sounds an awful lot like insufferable Bushies who call liberals traitors.

News flash: It's BECAUSE MANY OF US CARE ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THE COUNTRY that we think that another four years of Bush is something that WE CANNOT RISK. Please don't play the game of impugning the motives of those who disagree with you.

I give you credit for having genuine concerns. I just think you're very mistaken about how to express your concerns effectively.

If you're concerned about the symbolic power of voting, consider this: Think of all of the harm Bush has done to the reputation of America around the world, all of the distrust and hate stirred up among both allies and rivals. Now think of the world's reaction if we show that we've dismissed this man vs. the reaction if we look like we're putting our stamp of approval on all he has done by giving him four more years.
Quote:
It's the compromises that have gotten us to where we are.

On the contrary, I'd say it's lack of compromise that's gotten us into the current mess. Republicans, with control over both Congress and the White House, haven't had to compromise enough with Democrats, and have given an incompetent, politically-driven, policy-inept administration too much power.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #102 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by Aquatic
Anyway all us liberals we're all just pseudonyms for pfflam!!!

In fact, PFFLAM is really an acronym: People Frequently Faking Location And Moniker
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #103 of 407
This movie looks great, will it be released in theatres here though?

I saw one of Michael Moore's other movies, "Bowling for Columbine" and thoroughly enjoyed it

"Fahrenheit 911" is getting rave reviews it seems
~Winner of the Official 2003 AppleInsider NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament Pool~
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post #104 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
In fact, PFFLAM is really an acronym: People Frequently Faking Location And Moniker

LOL.
post #105 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
If Michael Moore truly cared for America and really wanted to see change, I would indeed expect him to look towards a protest candidate. Think of what Moore and his great ability to generate press could do to bring light to viable third party candidates. But he doesn't want real change, he just wants Bush gone at any cost.

I understand what you're trying to say...but give me a break. Let's keep it in the real world. "Protest" vote? Yeah, maybe if 40% of the electorate voted for a third party. People want to protest(vote)? Get a bumper sticker or something.

I am not going to defend anyone I don't much care for(I have only seen parts of B for C)...but at least Moore is not hiding the fact that he wants Bush gone. It's the Bush fanatics who just have to jump into the discussion without doing a little research first.
post #106 of 407
I was going to use shetline instead of pfflam too. Hehe.

Damn does anyone else know what song that is in the trailer at the end? The rock one? It's a really fitting tune, it's rockin and angry. It starts right after Ashcroft "sings."
"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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post #107 of 407
The trailer is up on Apple.com

http://www.apple.com/trailers/lions_...ahrenheit_911/

Also, here's a full link to Ascroft singing used in the trailer.

http://www.cnn.com/video/us/2002/02/....wbtv.med.html
post #108 of 407
Thanks, Existence!

Wow the trailer looks even better in high quality. Notice the subtle change in font color of the Fahrenheit 9/11 title from cloudy blue sky white to a fiery white and orange. Very slick. That's one of my favorite parts. Also the "sit down, my son" line from Conyers-- the trailer music just stops and the congressman drops the bomb. Or the look the one Michael Moore employee gives when told to ask congressional leaders to enlist their sons. Or anything Bush does in that trailer-- the "elite/base joke," the "now watch my drive line." Oh i hope the movie is full of good stuff like that.
post #109 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Thanks, Existence!

Wow the trailer looks even better in high quality. Notice the subtle change in font color of the Fahrenheit 9/11 title from cloudy blue sky white to a fiery white and orange. Very slick. That's one of my favorite parts. Also the "sit down, my son" line from Conyers-- the trailer music just stops and the congressman drops the bomb. Or the look the one Michael Moore employee gives when told to ask congressional leaders to enlist their sons. Or anything Bush does in that trailer-- the "elite/base joke," the "now watch my drive line." Oh i hope the movie is full of good stuff like that.

I'm sure it will be as good as any other fictional movie out this summer.

Congressman's answer cut

Quote:
WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Rep. Mark Kennedy has unhappy memories of his filmed encounter with leftist moviemaker Michael Moore, an encounter featured Thursday in a trailer for the upcoming U.S. release of the film "Fahrenheit 9/11."

"I was walking back to my office after casting a vote, and all of a sudden some oversized guy puts a mike in my face and a camera in my face," said the Minnesota Republican. "He starts asking if I can help him recruit more people from families of members of Congress to participate in the war on terror."

Kennedy said he told Moore that he has two nephews in the military, one who has just been deployed in the Army National Guard.

But to Kennedy's annoyance, his response to Moore was cut from the trailer (and from the film, according to a spokeswoman for the movie).

"The interesting thing is that they used my image, but not my words," Kennedy said. "It's representative of the fact that Michael Moore doesn't always give the whole story, and he's a master of the misleading."

A spokeswoman for the film, which has found a U.S. distributor after the Walt Disney Co. refused to release it, said she had no comment.

A transcript released by the film's producers shows Moore telling Kennedy that "there is only one member [of Congress] who has a kid over there in Iraq." He asks Kennedy to help him pass out literature encouraging others "to get their kids to enlist in the Army and go over to Iraq."

Kennedy replies, "I'd be happy to. Especially those who voted for the war. [As Kennedy did.] I have a nephew on his way to Afghanistan."

To which Moore replies: "I appreciate it."

This guy is actually seen in the trailer. But of course his reply is not seen in either the trailer or the movie.

Michael Moore obviously has the ability to stitch together a compelling presentation of his viewpoint via film. He also, as you mentioned, has a great style to his film making. Why does he have to constantly misrepresent things though to put that across?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #110 of 407
Nick, it's not immediately clear exactly *what* Michael Moore supposedly misrepresents. I think his "image" conveys something that's largely true. The incredulous look the congressman gives Moore is priceless and probably indicates how most people feel (including congressional leaders) about "Senator's sons," who have historically enjoyed deferments to domestic guard duties, deenlistment, and otherwise. I think the use of his image leaves open the question of whether he would encourage his own kids to enlist, but clearly conveys skepticism in doing so and in encouraging other members of congress to do so. There's no misrepresentation either way, from what I can gather from the trailer and from what we now know from the newspaper article.
post #111 of 407
OK
OK,


My wife went out and rented it and gave me the option; either go waste time on AO or watch Bowling For Columbine:

You know what? it was MUCH MUCH better than I thought it would be.
He acually got to deep structural root causes . . and those causes were not simply too many guns . . . in fact Moore is a member of the NRA and won regional medals for marksmenship etc as a youth.

also, I have been aware of the so called lies and mistakes etc that people have been on about in order to dismiss Moore entirely, and, I could even see them in the film --they were NOTHING . . . they had nothing to do with the message of that movie, nor its power, and also nothing to detract from the enjoyable watch that it was.

So,

To all of you who haven't seen it yet, I recommend it . . . besides I know some of the musicians in the title song . . . and they could use re-exposure and income . . . .

It reconfirms many of my ideas about what we, as a culture need to place in higher priority . . .

Can't wait to see the new movie!!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #112 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Nick, it's not immediately clear exactly *what* Michael Moore supposedly misrepresents. I think his "image" conveys something that's largely true. The incredulous look the congressman gives Moore is priceless and probably indicates how most people feel (including congressional leaders) about "Senator's sons," who have historically enjoyed deferments to domestic guard duties, deenlistment, and otherwise. I think the use of his image leaves open the question of whether he would encourage his own kids to enlist, but clearly conveys skepticism in doing so and in encouraging other members of congress to do so. There's no misrepresentation either way, from what I can gather from the trailer and from what we now know from the newspaper article.

The misrepresentation occurs because we are not allowed to see to what that look is related. I mean how would you look if someone off the street just came and stuck a microphone and camera in your face. Raising your eyebrows would likely indicate in both your and the congressman's instance, nothing more than increased awareness. (A sort of who the heck is this?) The fact that he wouldn't use the words or conversation spoken during the exchange is the height of disinformation.

The reason Moore used the look is because it can be, just as you showed, a bit neutral and as a result can have the beliefs of Moore, or someone like yourself read into it. You can take the beliefs you have and read them into that look. You couldn't do so with his actual words. That is why it is a misrepresentation.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #113 of 407
Existence I meant the song after Ashcroft sings. But I'm surprised! LOL that is probably the singing Attorney General we've had. Maybe he should change his day job?? Go in to some Italian opera or something? He could play the swashbuckling bad guy!
Quote:
Also the "sit down, my son" line from Conyers-- the trailer music just stops and the congressman drops the bomb. Or the look the one Michael Moore employee gives when told to ask congressional leaders to enlist their sons. Or anything Bush does in that trailer-- the "elite/base joke," the "now watch my drive line." Oh i hope the movie is full of good stuff like that.

I know. That Conyers quote, just the way he says it, floors me. I watch it over and over. And how the music stops. I like that guy and I don't even know what party he is or his views...He's just funny. He reminds me of me, working at Sears. every day someone comes in and asks where the car audio stuff is. We got rid of it and filled the aisle with boxes of crap. On one side vacuums are encroaching, on the other, hardware. Our department is going to shit especially since Best Buy moved in. I give them the same answer Conyers appears to be giving, like "Yeah I know. That is stupid huh?" Sigh. That was really funny. And the music right after it is so good I want to know what that song is!

I also like Bush's "joke" and his golfin'. Almost as good as the 'no WMD here' "joke" Good guy. That's my Gee Dub. Maybe he should be in the PGA instead of leading the most powerful nation in the world.

hey Nick it's really annoying when the other side makes up stuff isn't it! I'll admit, that is pretty shady. Just like when he stitched Heston together. So why don't you get indignant about the recent Bush ad?
"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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post #114 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
The misrepresentation occurs because we are not allowed to see to what that look is related. I mean how would you look if someone off the street just came and stuck a microphone and camera in your face. Raising your eyebrows would likely indicate in both your and the congressman's instance, nothing more than increased awareness. (A sort of who the heck is this?) The fact that he wouldn't use the words or conversation spoken during the exchange is the height of disinformation.

The reason Moore used the look is because it can be, just as you showed, a bit neutral and as a result can have the beliefs of Moore, or someone like yourself read into it. You can take the beliefs you have and read them into that look. You couldn't do so with his actual words. That is why it is a misrepresentation.

Nick

This is Moore's famous tactic . . . and it works much like a push-poll . . .

it is more about the IDEA of the question and the questioned than it is the answer . . . unless the answer is really telling . . . which it sometimes is. . . .

This Senator has a 'nephew' . . . from who? his wife's black-sheep poor artist brother, or what? We don't know . . . it still isn't his son or daughter, and, though it would seem on the surface, if I were looking to dismiss before-hand, that it is an indictment, it really isn't a worhty criticism of Moore at all . . . only for the choir

But that too is a critique of Moore
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #115 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
This is Moore's famous tactic . . . and it works much like a push-poll . . .

it is more about the IDEA of the question and the questioned than it is the answer . . . unless the answer is really telling . . . which it sometimes is. . . .

This Senator has a 'nephew' . . . from who? his wife's black-sheep poor artist brother, or what? We don't know . . . it still isn't his son or daughter, and, though it would seem on the surface, if I were looking to dismiss before-hand, that it is an indictment, it really isn't a worhty criticism of Moore at all . . . only for the choir

But that too is a critique of Moore

Nonsense. You award honesty to Moore for no other reason than having his politics in the right(or left as it were) place.

He leaves off the reply. You concede it is basically push polling, and on top of that question the integrity of the congressman for no other reason than he raised an eyebrow.

Mr. McCarthy, I don't think he is a communist. You can leave him off your list.

The reality of it is that he attempted to make this member of congress look like a hypocrite. Since he couldn't achieve it via his words or even his actions, he had to edit it down to just his eyebrows. It is more than just creative editing. It wasn't even satire or anything of that nature where the expression is being used or repeated for comedic purposes. It is outright misrepresentation.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #116 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
This is Moore's famous tactic . . . and it works much like a push-poll . . .

it is more about the IDEA of the question and the questioned than it is the answer . . . unless the answer is really telling . . . which it sometimes is. . . .

This Senator has a 'nephew' . . . from who? his wife's black-sheep poor artist brother, or what? We don't know . . . it still isn't his son or daughter, and, though it would seem on the surface, if I were looking to dismiss before-hand, that it is an indictment, it really isn't a worhty criticism of Moore at all . . . only for the choir

But that too is a critique of Moore

Nicely put, pfflam. Thank you for articulating my unarticulated thoughts! The idea of the question (would you encourage your son/daughter to enlist in Iraq) and the questioned (members of congress) could be that members of congress have traditionally found ways of getting around doing that-- or maybe whether people responsible for sending other kids to war would potentially sacrifice their own children for the country. Moore doesn't misrepresent Kennedy . In fact, he uses the representative to convey exactly the IDEA of the question and the questioned-- and there's no doubt he looks initially incredulous or skeptical at the purported task. Kennedy, in his interview in that newspaper article, seems to miss the point entirely.
post #117 of 407
post #118 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Nonsense. You award honesty to Moore for no other reason than having his politics in the right(or left as it were) place.

He leaves off the reply. You concede it is basically push polling, and on top of that question the integrity of the congressman for no other reason than he raised an eyebrow.

Mr. McCarthy, I don't think he is a communist. You can leave him off your list.

The reality of it is that he attempted to make this member of congress look like a hypocrite. Since he couldn't achieve it via his words or even his actions, he had to edit it down to just his eyebrows. It is more than just creative editing. It wasn't even satire or anything of that nature where the expression is being used or repeated for comedic purposes. It is outright misrepresentation.

Nick

Boy, you sure are outraged!!!

what injustice!!!

besides, I did say that it was like a push-poll . . . but far more entertaining . . . I think it is a shortcoming of his style: basically badgering people, and using the discomfort of the camera as a tool.

But there is more to it than simple lying: it really is about the idea of that specific question being asked of a specific person . . . it just so happens that the eyebrows also look hillarious.

I'lll wait to see the film, maybe there is mre of the dialogue in there . . .
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #119 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Boy, you sure are outraged!!!

what injustice!!!

besides, I did say that it was like a push-poll . . . but far more entertaining . . . I think it is a shortcoming of his style: basically badgering people, and using the discomfort of the camera as a tool.

But there is more to it than simple lying: it really is about the idea of that specific question being asked of a specific person . . . it just so happens that the eyebrows also look hillarious.

I'lll wait to see the film, maybe there is mre of the dialogue in there . . .

They already confirmed via a transcript of the film that the dialog is not there.

I'm glad that the depth of Michael Moore's investigative journalism questioning falls along of the lines of "Does your mother know you pick your nose?" (Yes, eww gross.. .No, well then you better tell her)

I'm so glad Moore is raising the level of discussion.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #120 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
They already confirmed via a transcript of the film that the dialog is not there.

I'm glad that the depth of Michael Moore's investigative journalism questioning falls along of the lines of "Does your mother know you pick your nose?" (Yes, eww gross.. .No, well then you better tell her)

I'm so glad Moore is raising the level of discussion.

Nick

Before I actually saw Columbine I would have agreed with you. However it is clear that he does what few, if any, do: and that is take a pwerspective down to the roots of deep sociological problems.

peppered with a few snide little schtick tricks, but notheless its there (deep journalism) and is a good. breath of fresh air.

I commend him on his willingness to make connections on big social trends and not merely stop at something like: "guns are the problem"
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
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