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Speculations on the new iMac's specifications - Page 3

post #81 of 242
Thread Starter 
I decided to do a comparison with the Mhz rating of the iMac versus the PowerMac. It doesn't all map on perfectly because they were upgraded at different times, but I chose the most overlapping models. I got the info from http://www.everymac.com.

Fall 1998
iMac rev. A/B: 233 Mhz G3
PowerMac Desktop 266-300 Mhz G3
PowerMac Tower 300-333 Mhz G3

Winter 1999
iMac Colors 266 Mhz G3
PowerMac Blue & White, 300-400 Mhz G3

Summer 1999
iMac, 333 Mhz
PowerMac Blue & White, 350-450 Mhz G3

Winter-Spring 2000
iMac 350-400Mhz G3
PowerMac G4, 350-500, dual 400 Mhz G4

Fall 2000
iMac, 350-500 Mhz G3
PowerMac, Dual 450-dual 500 Mhz G4
(Cube single 450-500 Mhz G4)

Winter-Spring 2001
iMac 400-600 Mhz G3
PowerMac 466-733 Mhz G4

Fall 2001
iMac 500-700 Mhz G3
PowerMac G4 Quicksilver 733, 867, dual 800 Mhz G4

Spring 2002
iMac Flat Panel 700-800 Mhz G4
PowerMac G4 800, 933, dual 1 Ghz G4

Fall 2002-Spring 2003
iMac Flat Panel 700 Mhz - 1 Ghz G4
PowerMac G4 Mirrored Drive Doors dual 867, dual 1 Ghz, dual 1.25 Ghz

Fall 2003
iMac 1-1.25 Ghz G4
PowerMac G5 1.6, 1.8, dual 2 Ghz G5

It's clear that the original intent of the iMac was to be at or just below the low-end PowerMac. And when the PowerMac went G4 and the iMac stayed G3, they overlapped quite a lot in Mhz. Then when the iMac went G4, they went to the iMac being just at the low-end PowerMac again.

The other interesting thing to me is that the Cube was at about the same Mhz as the PowerMac, but it was single processor while the PowerMac was dual. If the Flat Panel iMac is kind of a new Cube, then this new iMac ought to be a single G5 rated at the same Mhz as the current PowerMacs and the eMac ought to be at about the same Mhz too but with a G4.

Given this, I'd expect the iMac either to be right at the low-end PowerMac G5 - say, 2 Ghz when the new PowerMac come out - or if the PowerMacs go all dual, the new iMac ought to match the Mhz of the PowerMac.

Of course history isn't a perfect predictor of the future, but it's clear where they want the iMac to be. And now that there's an eMac, the pressure for it to be up there with the PowerMac is even greater, as it was with the Cube when the iMac remained at a G3.

The other thing I noticed is how they just stopped updating the iMac in a serious way there at the end. The PowerMac really has surpassed the iMac in a serious way in the last year and a half. But in the history of the two machines, that's an anomaly.
post #82 of 242
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
The other thing I noticed is how they just stopped updating the iMac in a serious way there at the end. The PowerMac really has surpassed the iMac in a serious way in the last year and a half. But in the history of the two machines, that's an anomaly.

Sure, but it's easy to see why - Motorola cutting back on PPC development, Apple's involvement with IBM, and the fact that it's damn tough to cool one of these in an enclosure the size of the current iMac.

Not really an anomaly at all.
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post #83 of 242
Quote:
Originally posted by Rhumgod

Not really an anomaly at all.

Yeah but BRussell, with that excellent post has demonstrated that the iMac is not intended to be a crippled machine at all. Circumstances have allowed the Power Macs to make it look bad, if only temporarily. I'll be watching for a bad-ass upgrade to the iMacs in the next few months. Just wait.
post #84 of 242
Fools !

The PPC970 bus is runnig at Half Speed always so shut up with this s**t 450MHz Bus !

If the Chip will run 1.6 it will have a 800MHz Bus !

Simply be quiet if you dont know !
post #85 of 242
Quote:
Originally posted by iDave
Yeah but BRussell, with that excellent post has demonstrated that the iMac is not intended to be a crippled machine at all.

Crippled, no but seriously behind the PowerMac. Look at this speed graph:



I couldn't figure out the best way to graph in dual CPU options, but just imagine that light blue line showing Duals in the high-end from July 2000 until present. And Duals in the iMac, well, never.

The PowerMac has shown a steady increase in disparity (high-end versus high-end) over the iMac since the iMac introduction in 1998. Granted only since the 970-based PowerMacs have the low-end PowerMac versus high-end iMac shown such disparity.
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post #86 of 242
Quote:
Originally posted by macmunch
Fools !

The PPC970 bus is runnig at Half Speed always so shut up with this s**t 450MHz Bus !

If the Chip will run 1.6 it will have a 800MHz Bus !

Simply be quiet if you dont know !

Uh oh.

I think somebody here needs to both
1) Cool down.
2) Learn about the 970, himself.

It's common knowledge on this forum that the 970 supports more than just the 2:1 multiplier.
post #87 of 242
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Rhumgod
Crippled, no but seriously behind the PowerMac. Look at this speed graph:

Nice graph. But I think the low-end PowerMac is the relevant comparison. And even if you look at high-end PowerMac vs. high-end iMac, we probably should look at it in terms of proportions of Mhz rather than raw Mhz.
post #88 of 242
Quote:
Originally posted by Rhumgod
Crippled, no but seriously behind the PowerMac. Look at this speed graph:

...snip...

The PowerMac has shown a steady increase in disparity (high-end versus high-end) over the iMac since the iMac introduction in 1998. Granted only since the 970-based PowerMacs have the low-end PowerMac versus high-end iMac shown such disparity.

Your graph well-illustrates the current problem. I don't think anyone expects the iMac to be quite equal to the Power Mac with respect to speed. After all it is a non-expandable consumer machine with limited cooling ability. It's a given that recently it has become a pitiful computer when compared, pricewise, to both the Power Mac and the eMac. May I say it again...Motorola?!

I'm telling ya, just wait a little longer, a month or two, tops, and we'll be pleasantly surprised by the iMac. Of course there will always be those who will be dissatisfied.
post #89 of 242
Quote:
Originally posted by iDave
Your graph well-illustrates the current problem. I don't think anyone expects the iMac to be quite equal to the Power Mac with respect to speed. After all it is a non-expandable consumer machine with limited cooling ability. It's a given that recently it has become a pitiful computer when compared, pricewise, to both the Power Mac and the eMac. May I say it again...Motorola?!

I'm telling ya, just wait a little longer, a month or two, tops, and we'll be pleasantly surprised by the iMac. Of course there will always be those who will be dissatisfied.

Oh I am sure it will be a pleasant surprise. I have almost no doubt of that fact. It's just the curve of iMac speed advancement I was trying to illustrate from BRussells specs, is much flatter than the PowerMacs. Which is what I was expecting, but more or less wanted to see for myself. I figure I'd post it if nothing more than to illustrate it. Also, let's not forget the iMac went from a single G3 to a single G4. The PowerMac when from a single G3 to G4 to dual G4s to single/dual G5s in the same time frame.

Different computers designed and marketing for a different group of buyers.

It's just people looking to pick up a Mac on the cheap are directed to an eMac (yuck!) and my feelings on the whole eMac/iMac discussion are in another thread.
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post #90 of 242
Quote:
Originally posted by Rhumgod
It's just people looking to pick up a Mac on the cheap are directed to an eMac (yuck!) and my feelings on the whole eMac/iMac discussion are in another thread.

I agree, basically, eMacs should not be the only inexpensive choice Mac buyers have. That's why I believe Apple should offer both low end and high end iMac configurations. I really hope, in addition to a killer 2.2Ghz (or so) high end, they'll have a new low end iMac, still with a 15" LCD and say a 1.4 Ghz G5 for about $1000. Or else, some kind of cheap headless non-expandable unit for less.
post #91 of 242
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph
I believe we're a ways from detachable wireless screens. 802.15.3 is a step in the right direction, but LCDs are holding steady pricewise, and the technology to make a compelling tablet - even one that is "tethered" is not there yet. In fact, I don't think Apple will go there. You have to have some computing power locally, so you might as well have enough. Network latency is crippling, and I won't even mention network reliability. Finally, I think the perfect candidate to be this machine is... the iBook. And if you want to borrow some desktop cycles, you can use Rendezvous to your iMac/PowerMac/whatever.

Well then, we agree that that's past the lifespan of any putative "new iMac," and so outside the scope of this thread.

Maybe not? See "interactive display" rumor here: http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/...07193235.shtml

But, assuming this rumor isn't accurate, the technology doesn't seem to allow for a WWDC intro for such a product, I agree. However, I disagree that the iBook is perfect for the market I was talking about, or that we won't see such a thing in from Apple down the road though.... But that's outside the scope of the thread of course.
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post #92 of 242
Steve at WWDC..."I would like to intorduce the new and amazing iMac G4 at 1.5 GHZ. It is the fastest iMac every produced."


Angry mob rushes stage...
post #93 of 242
Yeah, they probably will be 1.5 Ghz G4's.
However, the comments by Boger are a bit cryptic, so who knows.

I can only see Steve unveiling them at WWDC if they have G5's and a new design. Other wise... they are coming to a tuesday near us.
post #94 of 242
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
I think the return of color would be a mistake. I get the feeling that the G5 iMac is being primed as the "grown up" iMac. Still sleek and gorgeous of course, but more refined and powerful. It'll still be white, but with more chrome and/or metal accents and fittings.

You gotta remember that when the fruit-flavored iMacs were all the rage there were no inexpensive, powerful iBooks and eMacs or multi-colored iPod minis to also appeal to the youth/female/hipster market. Now the G5 iMac can take its rightful place as the elegant prosumer machine it has recently tried to be, but finally with the specs to back it up.

PowerMacs are the pro machines, iMacs/iBooks are the consumer machines! I think a line of the same metalic imacs as the iPod Minis would be great! (just like a Aluninium PowerPod for G5 users!) Apple could then re-brand the apple with the old rainbow colours, but with a metalic finish... classy!
post #95 of 242
Quote:
Originally posted by nathan22t
Yeah, they probably will be 1.5 Ghz G4's.
However, the comments by Boger are a bit cryptic, so who knows.

I can only see Steve unveiling them at WWDC if they have G5's and a new design. Other wise... they are coming to a tuesday near us.

Boger? I am missing something. Is that an AI user, or some other person. I searched AI and come up with nothing. Please give me a link.

Sincerely

OMF
post #96 of 242
Quote:
Originally posted by oldmacfan
Please give me a link.

Link to MacCentral article.
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post #97 of 242
Quote:
Originally posted by Rhumgod
Link to MacCentral article.

Thanks, I just read it and came back to find your link
post #98 of 242
Quote:
Originally posted by Rhumgod
Link to MacCentral article.

What is it that you find cryptic?
post #99 of 242
Quote:
Originally posted by oldmacfan
What is it that you find cryptic?

"While Boger didn't give a timeframe for an iMac G5, he did say the company faced similar challenges getting a G5 to work with their consumer desktop."

The bold part seems to indicate that they have already faced those challenges of getting it into the consumer desktop (read: iMac)

It's the same story -- the challenges are obvious when you look at the G5 and the size of the heatsinks and the enclosure; that would be a heck of a challenge as well."

Don't know what the hell he is talking about in the 2nd. Almost seems as though he changed the phrasing to mean there could be challenges in dropping a G5 in an iMac, or PowerBook or whatever he is referencing.
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post #100 of 242
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Rhumgod
"While Boger didn't give a timeframe for an iMac G5, he did say the company faced similar challenges getting a G5 to work with their consumer desktop."

His statement about the iMac was a tiny bit more equivocal, but I think you're reading too much into the use of the past tense there. It wasn't the quote from Boger that was in the past tense, it was the statement itself reporting what Boger had said that was in the past tense.

I guess it's still possible that they'll simply dump the iMac and come up with something else that could fit a single-processor G5. I wonder if they could take the power supply out of that thing and stick it on the cord, and if that would free up some air in there?
post #101 of 242
Quote:
Originally posted by oldmacfan
What is it that you find cryptic?

Unlike the statement about the PowerBooks, it isn't explicit enough to make me believe that G5 iMacs are coming soon or not.
post #102 of 242
I would think, if Apple was redesigning an iMac with a new motherboard for a G5, it would be much simpler to design a new iMac base than it would be to shoehorn a G5 into a thin PowerBook. Sure, it would require an all new design, but I'm doubtful it would be so tough unless they're planning for a very fast hot G5.
post #103 of 242
Quote:
Originally posted by nathan22t
Unlike the statement about the PowerBooks, it isn't explicit enough to make me believe that G5 iMacs are coming soon or not.

For me, the message from the Power Mac update is quite clear: no G5 iMac anytime soon. The next update will still have a G4. The one the Powerbooks have right now.
post #104 of 242
although i really want the imac updated it could not possible for the summer ,we have not heard anything new other than the imacs have not been restocked,maybe it means something,but dont u thing that we would have heard a bit more of imacs if they were approaching to a g5

,i hope im wrong 'cause im dying for an imac g5
post #105 of 242
On the other hand, don't you think the iMac would have already been updated if all we were going to see was a speed bump to 1.5Ghz G4s? I really think there's a big reason why the eMac was upgraded and allowed to make the current iMac look bad; there's something new and it's not quite ready.
post #106 of 242
Quote:
Originally posted by oldmacfan
Steve at WWDC..."I would like to intorduce the new and amazing iMac G4 at 1.5 GHZ. It is the fastest iMac every produced."


Angry mob rushes stage...

this WONT happen.
im thinking new chips from freescale.
post #107 of 242
[QUOTE]Originally posted by geekmeet
[B]this WONT happen.
im thinking new chips from freescale or an ibm g5.
post #108 of 242
so i can expect that maybeee we are getting the imac g5 for this summer,according to some slim suspicions that u have guys?

i hope so ,i think it is due to a g5 upgrade ,because it is beggning to lag bahind,also if we have to wait ,it will be past winter ,i think,and i think thats too long for an upgrade
post #109 of 242
Quote:
Originally posted by geekmeet
this WONT happen.
im thinking new chips from freescale.

PowerMac8,1
SMU_Neo2_PlatformPlugin

That says completely new design to me.

I would think the Freescale design would be the most likely, as even the G5 has the standard PowerMac7_2_PlatformPlugin definition for the PowerMac7,3 machine code.

No, this is something completely new!
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post #110 of 242
Interesting phrasing from the Boger interview

Quote:
"I think it's important to realize that the technical challenges are not trivial putting that G5 in a PowerBook or anything else and not to expect a G5 anytime soon in a PowerBook -- certainly not before the end of the year," said Boger.

(my emphasis)

That G5? suggests that there's another G5 around

Perhaps a freescale CPU? It still suggests that there's no G5 powerbook before next year, but that when it turns up, it may not be the PPC970
post #111 of 242
Quote:
Originally posted by mortigi tempo
That G5? suggests that there's another G5 around

Perhaps a freescale CPU?

Yeah, this is something that has been extensively discussed here the last months. Do a search for Powerbook and Freescale and you will find the threads. Until now, there is no newer information on that than what you will find in the older threads.
post #112 of 242
Quote:
Yeah, this is something that has been extensively discussed here the last months. Do a search for Powerbook and Freescale and you will find the threads. Until now, there is no newer information on that than what you will find in the older threads.

I know that, I just meant that it's interesting that Boger didn't just say "it's going to be difficult to get the PPC970 into a powerbook etc" he said "it's difficult to get THIS g5 into ..."

Small point, I know, and he may just mean a future iteration of the ppc970, but it does give some credence to the suggestions that there is going to be another g5 class chip
post #113 of 242
Quote:
Originally posted by mortigi tempo
I know that, I just meant that it's interesting that Boger didn't just say "it's going to be difficult to get the PPC970 into a powerbook etc" he said "it's difficult to get THIS g5 into ..."

Small point, I know, and he may just mean a future iteration of the ppc970, but it does give some credence to the suggestions that there is going to be another g5 class chip

I see. Although I think you are reading too much on that, and it could be very well just an expression to emphasize the problem, it is rumored that Apple and IBM are working on a mobile 64-bit solution for next year. In a year from now or so I would say. It is MacRumors that brought this possibility back in January, if I remember well.

It is clear that the current G5 is not for the Powerbooks. I believed for a moment that the 970FX could do the trick, when I read about power dissipation etc., but when I saw that the numbers were the typical ones and not the maximum, I realized that there is no way. If Apple comes one day and says "this is the new Powerbook G5", I bet it would not be any of the G5s we know right now therein.
post #114 of 242
Of course they are working on future G5s. You think they built the 970 & 970FX and just stopped and said "okay, this will do for us forever"? The real questions are in how many designs they are working on, what their specs are, and when they'll come available. Look at the recent interview with an IBM rep about how they are throwing open Power for customization... I'm quite sure that means we'll see a variety of things from the IBM Power group, not to mention the possibility that Freescale might deliver something as well.
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post #115 of 242
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
Of course they are working on future G5s. You think they built the 970 & 970FX and just stopped and said "okay, this will do for us forever"?

I will repeat what you said, of course they are working on future G5s, but I will complete saying that no one knows if they are working on mobile 64-bit CPUs for the Mac platform and where they are.

It should be evident that this is the case indeed, but neither Apple nor IBM said something on that. On the other hand, in several occasions it has been apparent that IBM prepares the next generation 64-bit CPUs for Apple (we have already the 970FX), but until now all those CPUs seem to be desktop/server CPUs. Not notebook CPUs. At least not thin notebook (see Powerbook) CPUs.
post #116 of 242
Heres what I think will happen at WWDC.
What I HOPE happens:
- New iMac design, takes out the powersupply
- takes on cubular shape for more space
- has G5's at 1.5, 1.7, 1.9
- uses liquid cooling (less fans = less noise) to allow it to handle the heat from G5

What might actualy happen:
- iMac design is the same
- has G5's at 1.4, 1.6, 1.8
- uses liquid cooling
- power supply is taken out

What probaly will happen:
- Steve shows off really c001 powermacs
- talks about tiger
- adds in various plug-ins for other apps
- demonstrates exactly how cool powermacs are
post #117 of 242
well i hope the IMAC G5 will be there,really hope sooo,do you think chances are so slim,many people say ,yes,many no,i hope they come out for the end of the month,or at least before august
post #118 of 242
Quote:
Originally posted by iMAC G5dreamer
well i hope the IMAC G5 will be there,really hope sooo,do you think chances are so slim,many people say ,yes,many no,i hope they come out for the end of the month,or at least before august

I expect at least one hardware announcement and a ton of software (Tiger, QT7, etc)
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post #119 of 242
If Apple was gong to put the 1.5 gig G4 into the next iMac it would have been released a while back - just after the PB (which I bought last month).

If Apple is going to the G5 for the iMac it is a new generation design/engineering effort that will be able to last for a few years, like when the G5 is kicking out at 3.5 to 5 gigs.

From the new PMs we know that they are only available in a dual config, leaving the single G5 for another platform. That leaves us with 2 options:

1. A G5 iMac, new generation that will be used for several years announced at WWDC.

2. If the G5 iMac is released BEFORE the WWDC then there might be a chance for a PowerMac mini - smaller case (PM "shrunk") three thermal zones, some expansion potential (but not as much as the PM) and priced where a mini with a 20" screen is about $200 more expensive than a similar powered iMac.

In terms of the G5 iMac, not all consumers are dumb. It targets the market that buys $20,000+ cars, everything from 3 Series BMWs to old f@rts with Crown Vics. The dude with the BMW is going to be somewhat tech savvy (or have friends that are) and the old f@rt (like me, but no Crown Vic) might have been exposed to macs since the mid-80's - like me. Sure there will be a "Little Princess" who thinks they are cute and gets Daddy to buy one for her, but a lot of iMac customers are somewhat intelligent when it comes to iMacs.

With the new PMs all dual I believe that the iMacs are going to be next generation and be the single G5 platform for at least a year. I believe that it will top out one notch below the PM (2.0 gigs for now, but increasing as the PM gets faster chips) and there will be some impressive specs, like a faster FSB) that appeals to those that look at such things before reaching for their credit card.

I also think that the 15" will be the entry level, moving to a wide screen display, like the 15" PB, and have the cheapest G5 that IBM puts out - which will probably be the ones that don't hit 1.8 gigs. Pricing below $1,200 with a Combo drive. BTO can get you a SuperDrive and/or a 1.8 G5 chip.

The mind range would be 17/18" at 1.8. If it's 18" then the 15" might move to 16". BTO can get you a 2.0 chip.

the 20" (or higher) would be at 2.0 and move to 2.5 when a 3 gig PM is available. BTO can NOT get you a 2.5 chip . . .

One important factor for me is that if this is a new generation iMac it will have a lot of the technology that is in the current PMs, mainly because it has to have a multi year life and that will include moving to 3 gigs (or more) over time. I believe a new generation iMac will have to stay in production until Apple is ready to move in Gx chips that have dual cores so we are talking about some heavy engineering as well as dynamic & elegant styling, which Apple does better than anyone else.
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post #120 of 242
The next iMac could very well have a 1.5 gig G4 in it.

I think Jobs will talk about more than Tiger, though. \
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