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TS drops the boom. Dual 2.6 tomorrow

post #1 of 164
Thread Starter 
http://www.thinksecret.com/news/g5refresh.html

The source said that the company's plans call for an announcement of the long-awaited G5 refresh tomorrow, on Tuesday, June 8, but stressed that announcement dates for speed bumps can be subject to change.

TS is never wrong the day before. Bring it on Apple!
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post #2 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
http://www.thinksecret.com/news/g5refresh.html

The source said that the company's plans call for an announcement of the long-awaited G5 refresh tomorrow, on Tuesday, June 8, but stressed that announcement dates for speed bumps can be subject to change.

TS is never wrong the day before. Bring it on Apple!

So I guess no 3GHz this summer?
post #3 of 164
Summer ends Sep 20.

Technically, it starts June 21, so it's not even summer yet.
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post #4 of 164
Thread Starter 
Yes I think that if these new macs don't have PCIe that we'll see it hit in Aug or early sept with the 3Ghz model.

I'll take 2.6Ghz tomorrow no problem with iMacs coming the following tuesday.
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post #5 of 164
There can still be room for a dual 3s if they add a 4th configuration to the mix, or just drop the low end once the 3s are ready to sell.
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post #6 of 164
If true, what will be announced at WWDC?
post #7 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by RolandG
If true, what will be announced at WWDC?

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post #8 of 164
if powermacs come tomorrow at only 2.6GHz, then WWDC will being the iPod 4G and a brand new iMac G5 with up to 1.8GHz.
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post #9 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
Summer ends Sep 20.

Technically, it starts June 21, so it's not even summer yet.

Don't encourage them.
post #10 of 164
Quote:
The source also pointed to increased talk in Cupertino about quad G5 models, but emphasized that the news was unconfirmed.

I have no comments other than I hope I don't get too pi$$ed off tomorrow. This better not be true.
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post #11 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
I have no comments other than I hope I don't get too pi$$ed off tomorrow. This better not be true.

Might explain the size of that 'mother' heatsink?

Single 2.6
Dual 2.6
Quad 2.6
post #12 of 164
Question: Would apps written for duals also take advantage of quads?

I dunno, I've never been a very big fan of duals, and I think people tend to overestimate their advantages. Same goes, but even more so, for quads.
post #13 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Question: Would apps written for duals also take advantage of quads?

I dunno, I've never been a very big fan of duals, and I think people tend to overestimate their advantages. Same goes, but even more so, for quads.

Apps are not written for duals. They are written for multiple CPU's.

And the short answer: Yes.
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post #14 of 164
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Question: Would apps written for duals also take advantage of quads?

I dunno, I've never been a very big fan of duals, and I think people tend to overestimate their advantages. Same goes, but even more so, for quads.

Duals make a big difference for apps that support them correctly like Final Cut Pro.

http://www.barefeats.com/fcp4.html

Apple should get just sick and develop a Quad CPU Powermac with SMT.
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post #15 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Duals make a big difference for apps that support them correctly like Final Cut Pro.

Right, exactly. They're great for those who know specifically that their apps can use them. They're not that useful for me because 1) I don't often use apps that use or need them and 2) I don't often do multiple processor-intensive things at once. If I can save some money with a single processor machine, it's a much better deal for me. And I bet I'm not unlike most Mac users.

At some point there must be diminishing returns though, right? Would quads really be a good idea, even if they could do it?
post #16 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Right, exactly. They're great for those who know specifically that their apps can use them. They're not that useful for me because 1) I don't often use apps that use or need them and 2) I don't often do multiple processor-intensive things at once. If I can save some money with a single processor machine, it's a much better deal for me. And I bet I'm not unlike most Mac users.

At some point there must be diminishing returns though, right? Would quads really be a good idea, even if they could do it?

Again it depends on the app. Im familiar with Cinema 4d, which is a very well written highly threaded 3d renderer. It can easily get 80% extra from a dual CPU, and on Dual Xeons, with hyperthreading simulating 4CPU's, it can actually get OVER 2x with 2 cpu's. A Quad 970FX system could potentially get 4x the performance in something like Cinema. Check out http://www.imashination.com/bench.html To see how much speedup you get, divide the Dual score by the Single score. You can usually see 1.8x - 2.1x the speedup. In Quad configuration , we might actually break the 1000 barrier, which would send a clear message to Cinema users, and have me in a state of utopia

my rough estimation would put a dual 2.6 970FX at the equivalent of a dual 3.2 Xeon in this Bench, which btw does not use any altivec at all.
post #17 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
They're not that useful for me because 1) I don't often use apps that use or need them and 2) I don't often do multiple processor-intensive things at once.

I would not say that so easily, since OS X itself benefits so much from the presence of the second processor, that I am sometimes wondering why all macs are not duals or with dual core processors. I believe this day will come and in the not so distant future.
post #18 of 164
Talking about Quad systems, I recently saw the price of a 4CPU opteron board, it was £1500, and about £1200 for each opteron 850(2.4ghz) or £700 for an 842(1.6ghz). Therefore the entry price of the 4CPU PC market is around £6000 (or $8000), if Apple could do this for £3000, or $4500, I think they would have a winner. And a Xeon MP (for 4 way boxes is about £2500 ($4000) at 1.5ghz.

Has anyone checked the newest seeds of OSX to see if it is compiled for more than 2 CPU?
post #19 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
Summer ends Sep 20.

Technically, it starts June 21, so it's not even summer yet.

What is your source for this "rumor"? And why haven't the reast of us heard about this. Yes I will go there, you my friend are lying in my opinion, desperate for attention you just make this stuff up. Shame on you.
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post #20 of 164
It all depends on how the application is multi-threaded. I would imagine that some applications would benefit right off the bat.

As to duals you have it backwards. The vast majority of the people underestimate the utility of SMP. Sure it doesn't have a huge impact on single thread application runned alone on a Mac. One has to consider how many single threaded applications exist today and how many users run only one application at any one time. Many applications are multi-threaded and few users run just one application, so there is a vast swath of users that could benefit from SMP.

AS far as being a fan of anything it is time to get over it. SMP is the wave of the future. It is the best way for a system to deliver complex services to a variety of users.

Thanks
Dave


Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Question: Would apps written for duals also take advantage of quads?

I dunno, I've never been a very big fan of duals, and I think people tend to overestimate their advantages. Same goes, but even more so, for quads.
post #21 of 164
If the bump does happen tomorrow...when will they be available? I just purchased a dula1.8 on the 17th of last month...and have 30 days to return. Please let me know so that I can plan accordingly. Thanks in advance.
post #22 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Right, exactly. They're great for those who know specifically that their apps can use them. They're not that useful for me because 1) I don't often use apps that use or need them and 2) I don't often do multiple processor-intensive things at once. If I can save some money with a single processor machine, it's a much better deal for me. And I bet I'm not unlike most Mac users.

Unfortunately you are basing your opinion on in accurate information. If you are running OS/X the you have the ability to make use of extra proccessors even if specific applications are single threaded. It is not just a case of multi thread applications that benefit, the system as a whole improves due to processes running in parallel.

As far as the better deal that is an open question. Duals are a cheap way to dramatically improve a systems performance. So is additional RAM. From my perspective RAM comes first for the average user with dual proccessors a close second.
Quote:

At some point there must be diminishing returns though, right? Would quads really be a good idea, even if they could do it?

Quads would be an excellent idea. Better yet quads with SMT support.

What you need to understand is that we are at the cross roads where single processor machines will quickly die out just like the dinosaurs. Multi tasking, multi threaded systems will be the rock that smashes the single processor era. Intel has already clearly laid out where they are going, I do believe that IBM and Apple are slightly ahead of Intel in this regard. Expect to see systems with 4 to eight logical processors in the near future. Within a couple of years it would be expected that any worthwhile system will have atleast 6 logical processors.

It is not just a case of PC's either; Sony, MS and everybody else are moving to SMP in GAME machines. They are doing so because it is the only reasonable way to get the required performance.
post #23 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Question: Would apps written for duals also take advantage of quads?

I dunno, I've never been a very big fan of duals, and I think people tend to overestimate their advantages. Same goes, but even more so, for quads.

You jest, I'm sure...
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post #24 of 164
Well I should have known that I'd cause problems by questioning MP systems.

OS X does not make single-threaded apps run faster. There was some discussion when X first came out that perhaps that might be true, but the data I've seen seem to show that's false.

Sure they make multi-threaded apps run faster. They're fantastic for people who spend lots of time waiting for multi-threaded apps to crunch through data. And X allows you to have multiple apps, multi-threaded or not, crunch data at the same time a lot faster. But I only spend approximately 1.6% of my time in one of those two situations, and I'd bet that's true of most Mac users.

I'm not "anti MP systems." I think all PowerMacs should be MP so the iMacs can be singles at the same Mhz. I just think their utility is narrower, at least right now, than what most folks on these boards seem to think.

RE: quads, again that's great for some folks, but probably not worth the extra cost for most of us. And I can't help shake the feeling that if they did this, it would be because of their failure to get to 3 Ghz as promised.
post #25 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
But I only spend approximately 1.6% of my time in one of those two situations, and I'd bet that's true of most Mac users.

Well I don't know about you, but I spend a lot of time with multiple Apps working at once, and that is just at home. Let's see: At present I have Mail, Text Edit, Safari and a distributed computing project, all running at the same time. I am surprised that my little iBook 600 can even keep up, but it does. I can only imagine what it could do with dual processors.

While dual processors won't speed up a single threaded App, they do speed up a lot of the background processes, that don't have to compete for cycles with the Apps themselves, and the status quo now days is for most users to have mail apps, browsers and other programs, often all running at once.

And it isn't just the Graphics and Video folks that need the power. At work I will usually have office, a database program, web browser, mail and 2 to 5 other apps, all running at once. That is one place where I could really use the power of 2 processors. It would benefit me more then a single "fast" processor.
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post #26 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Well...And I can't help shake the feeling that if they did this, it would be because of their failure to get to 3 Ghz as promised.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Winner!

Unless I am grossly mistaken, the only reason the MP system exists at all is because they fell so far behind in clock and performance that MP was the only way to save face. It had nothing to do with delivering a better experience. It had to do with not becoming a total laughing stock in the industry. I am fairly convince that Apple hates MP systems because it reminds them of how far behind they really are. Imagine if we were comparing the Wintel crop of systems to SP Macs. Even the 2 GHz G5 would look like a joke which is why such a system was never demoed. Whenever Apple thinks they have something good, they will fall back to SP. The G5 1.6 and the original 1.8 are good examples. Apple actually thought they could get away with only one MP product because the G5 was just sooo good. Well, they soon learned a valuable lesson that probably want soon repeat.

Now, they are backed into a marketing corner. They have conditioned Mac users to believe that the only way to do any real computing is with an MP system. Mac users automatically think "low-end" when they see a SP Mac, and for good reason. Before the G5, they were forced to go all MP because speeds were a joke. I look forward to the day when a Mac can compete with a PC without having to throw twice as many processors at the task. Theoretically, a three GHz would do it.

I guess we can all thank Moto for something useful after all.
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post #27 of 164
You are grossly mistaken.
post #28 of 164
Anyone read more than the top two lines?

Quote:
Apple will continue to sell the current G5 models at a discount to clear existing inventory; the cut prices will reportedly be $1,599 for the 1.6GHz G5, $2,199 for the Dual-1.8GHz, and $2,499 for the Dual-2GHz model.

Either this update has got to be priced insanely high, or Jobs has an expensive crack habit. If the "old" dual 2 ghz model is still $2500, what are the dual 2.6 going to cost? $3500 or something insanely stupid like that?

Nick

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post #29 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Anyone read more than the top two lines?



Either this update has got to be priced insanely high, or Jobs has an expensive crack habit. If the "old" dual 2 ghz model is still $2500, what are the dual 2.6 going to cost? $3500 or something insanely stupid like that?

Nick

I knew I smelled a fish, thanks for showing me where he died.
post #30 of 164
First: for those clinging to the idea that Apple will have 3 GHz G5s in the summer, drop it. It's okay not to increase clock speed by 50% in one year - in fact, it's rarely feasible for that to happen for any company.

Consider this. A 2.6 GHz G5 is a 30% clock speed improvement over the original 2 GHz from 2003. In contrast, the Pentium 4 was just reaching 3.2 GHz when the G5 was announced. Intel's next CPU update will bring 3.6 GHz. That's just 12.5% at best! And Intel as of late has been known to do paper launches, so 3.6 GHz may not even be available for a few weeks after it's announced.

Now I know that clock speed gains aren't one-for-one indicators of performance gains, but I wouldn't be especially disappointed with a dual 2.6 GHz G5's performance, especially not if it has PCI Express.
post #31 of 164
For a "Voyer" you don't seem to understand what you see happening around you. Apple loves it's SMP systems because they offer real value to the user and considering PPC cheaper chips, they allow Apple to be more than competitive with the PC world.

One thing that you allude to but seem to mis is that Apples customer are the one rejecting single processor machines in favor of SMP machines. If single processor machines where all they are described by you to be, Apple would not have had to upgrade the single processor 1.8GHz machine to SMP.

The clock rate issue was real but what you missed her is that SMP did offer more than just an alternative. Once the user base became familair with the responsiveness of SMP systems there was little incentive to look a single processor systems.


More disturbing than all of the above is that you seem to have no idea where the hardware and software world is moving to. SMP is the near term solution for acceptable machine performance. A year and a half from now it is very likely that we will see machines with 4 to 8 logical processors, maybe even more. Games may lead the march to SMP but I think Apple is going to jump on the chance to lead the way here.

Dave


Quote:
Originally posted by Mac Voyer
Ding! Ding! Ding! Winner!

Unless I am grossly mistaken, the only reason the MP system exists at all is because they fell so far behind in clock and performance that MP was the only way to save face. It had nothing to do with delivering a better experience. It had to do with not becoming a total laughing stock in the industry. I am fairly convince that Apple hates MP systems because it reminds them of how far behind they really are. Imagine if we were comparing the Wintel crop of systems to SP Macs. Even the 2 GHz G5 would look like a joke which is why such a system was never demoed. Whenever Apple thinks they have something good, they will fall back to SP. The G5 1.6 and the original 1.8 are good examples. Apple actually thought they could get away with only one MP product because the G5 was just sooo good. Well, they soon learned a valuable lesson that probably want soon repeat.

Now, they are backed into a marketing corner. They have conditioned Mac users to believe that the only way to do any real computing is with an MP system. Mac users automatically think "low-end" when they see a SP Mac, and for good reason. Before the G5, they were forced to go all MP because speeds were a joke. I look forward to the day when a Mac can compete with a PC without having to throw twice as many processors at the task. Theoretically, a three GHz would do it.

I guess we can all thank Moto for something useful after all.
post #32 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by Shaktai
And it isn't just the Graphics and Video folks that need the power. At work I will usually have office, a database program, web browser, mail and 2 to 5 other apps, all running at once. That is one place where I could really use the power of 2 processors. It would benefit me more then a single "fast" processor.

Gosh, some of you folks are mighty talented. I have enough trouble using one program at a time. An idle program in the background has little need for dual processors.
post #33 of 164
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Now, they are backed into a marketing corner. They have conditioned Mac users to believe that the only way to do any real computing is with an MP system. Mac users automatically think "low-end" when they see a SP Mac, and for good reason. Before the G5, they were forced to go all MP because speeds were a joke. I look forward to the day when a Mac can compete with a PC without having to throw twice as many processors at the task.

You are partly correct. Apple realized with the G4 that it was not going to clock high with 4/7 pipes. The only thing they could do was add two. If they had wanted to engage AMD/Intel in clockspeed they'd have just ran the pipeline stages up to the 12-15 X86 had at that time. Now Apple's forsight is looking brilliant in light of Intel cancelling Tejas because of clock/heat issues. Intel validated everything Apple has done by this overlooked choice.

Wizard69 is right. SMP has been the future for some time. No one expected Prescott to be as hot as it is. I believe the engineers thought 90nm would lead to more efficiency..that hasn't happened so rather than scale vertically we're moving to scaling horizontally. Bring on the multiple CPU/Core with SMT!!
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post #34 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by iDave
Gosh, some of you folks are mighty talented. I have enough trouble using one program at a time. An idle program in the background has little need for dual processors.

Well sure at home. At work I have 10, 12 sometimes more apps running all the time. Let's see, Mail, Entourage (freakin Microsoft, release a TRUE Exchange client already!), Safari, iCal, Dreamweaver/Flash MX 2004, dbvis, Terminal, Word, Excel, and sometimes VNC, Grab, Photoshop, and various other spur of the moment type apps... I would love duals, but my budget dictates that I use a PowerBook. I am in heaven though, even at my paltry 867MHz.... Duals rock, though. We have several at work and they literally scream in comparison to single CPU machines. It definitely makes a difference!
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post #35 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Anyone read more than the top two lines?



Either this update has got to be priced insanely high, or Jobs has an expensive crack habit. If the "old" dual 2 ghz model is still $2500, what are the dual 2.6 going to cost? $3500 or something insanely stupid like that?

Nick

Yeah if true that's not good news. Assuming they're not going to raise prices this would only make sense if the new mid-range was a dual 2.0 Ghz.

(old) single 1.6, $1500
(new) single 1.8 Ghz, $1800
(old) dual 1.8, $2200
(new) dual 2.0 Ghz, $2500
(old) dual 2.0, $2500
(new) dual 2.4 Ghz, $3000
post #36 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by wizard69
For a "Voyer" you don't seem to understand what you see happening around you. Apple loves it's SMP systems because they offer real value to the user and considering PPC cheaper chips, they allow Apple to be more than competitive with the PC world.

One thing that you allude to but seem to mis is that Apples customer are the one rejecting single processor machines in favor of SMP machines. If single processor machines where all they are described by you to be, Apple would not have had to upgrade the single processor 1.8GHz machine to SMP.

The clock rate issue was real but what you missed her is that SMP did offer more than just an alternative. Once the user base became familair with the responsiveness of SMP systems there was little incentive to look a single processor systems.


More disturbing than all of the above is that you seem to have no idea where the hardware and software world is moving to. SMP is the near term solution for acceptable machine performance. A year and a half from now it is very likely that we will see machines with 4 to 8 logical processors, maybe even more. Games may lead the march to SMP but I think Apple is going to jump on the chance to lead the way here.

Dave

I'm man enough to take that. But my point was mostly that Apple swerved into MP systems because of Moto's inability to produce better CPUs, not because of an intentional MP strategy. As I implied, if Apple was so fund of the idea, they would have offered the whole G5 line in MP configuration. They did practically the opposite. The Mac community demanded MP because they have been conditioned to think a certain way about the Mac offerings. That is not necessarily a bad thing. Moto's ineptness forced Apple to lead the way to the future in that regard. But it was not because they saw the light on MP vs SP IMO.
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post #37 of 164
I know TS is usually dead-on about stuff like this, but an Apple Corporate insider not knowing about Quads?
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post #38 of 164
Under MacOS X (and Window NT/2K/XP/etc) there is always something for the second processor to do, even when you're only running a single app. Graphics, I/O, file system, etc can all run on the 2nd processor while your app is using the first.

Multiple cores is the way of the future, and that has been clear for years -- only now is it really becoming obvious to everyone. Clock rate scaling is dead, and even Intel knows it. Power efficiency and multiple cores w/ multiple threads.
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post #39 of 164
Yes, and if anything Motorola just jumped on the train a little early.

Some of you might remember the mighty dual-CPU Power Mac 9600, or the DayStar boards that added multiple 604s to a Power Mac. Apple had done MP years before the G4. Robust support for SMP was built into the G4 from the absolute beginning, before any debacles had hit, and there was even rumbling from Motorola about dual core variants of the original G4. It might be true that Apple jumped to SMP under less than ideal circumstances, but there is absolutely no question that it was a familiar jump, and a planned one. My guess is that Apple planned to go multi-CPU and/or multi-core with the release of OS X.

As to BRussell's argument: The only machines in Apple's line that use dual CPUs are the professional towers, which are aimed very specifically at people who need all the power they can get their hands on, and priced accordingly. For everyone else, there's the eMac, iMac, iBook, and PowerBook. That said, I've heard widespread reports that the duals are "silkier" and more responsive generally than singles, and that makes sense: If you have the system running on one CPU and your app running on another, the machine will feel more responsive even if you're only using a fraction of its power. Nothing beats concurrent execution.
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post #40 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by Mac Voyer
[B]Unless I am grossly mistaken, the only reason the MP system exists at all is because they fell so far behind in clock and performance that MP was the only way to save face.

This was likely true in the OS 9 days when Apple could only update a single 500 MHz G4 to a dual, and the second processor was useless outside of Photoshop and a few other apps. Today, you are grossly mistaken. Any OS X machine under any usage pattern will benefit from multiple processors. You may think you're only doing one task at a time, but behind the scenes there are multiple processes running simultaneously.

Quote:
I am fairly convince that Apple hates MP systems because it reminds them of how far behind they really are. Imagine if we were comparing the Wintel crop of systems to SP Macs. Even the 2 GHz G5 would look like a joke which is why such a system was never demoed. Whenever Apple thinks they have something good, they will fall back to SP.

Why? Let's say IBM was magically able to produce a 4GHz PPC 975 next month. Why would Apple be content to be only mildly faster than the competition with SP systems, when they could have clear dominance with MP?
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