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TS drops the boom. Dual 2.6 tomorrow - Page 4

post #121 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by Rhumgod
I think Nick got duped.

also changed his information on the webpage. it was updated today, but instead of leaving in the old info and putting an addition at the bottom, he wiped out most of the old info(including the tuesday announcment and changed it to 'this week')
post #122 of 164
EDIT:sorry, screwed up
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post #123 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by Existence
I agree with onlooker. Apple needed 3GHz 6 months ago. If you look at benchmarks using various apps like photoshop, games, SPEC etc.. using the fastest available processors, this is the picture you usually get from <$5000 systems.

Opteron > Xeon > Athlon64 > P4 > G5 > AthlonXP

Onlooker, I'd wait until WWDC (or whenever these new G5s come out) before judging against Apple and getting a BOXX system (or building your own).

I'm not doing anything until I see what they have, but I reconfigured my next possible system earlier with a Quadro FX 4000 in it, and it's not that much more than it was, but I took alienware over BOXX, and Dual AMD Opteron 250 2.4 GHz 64-Bit over Xeons.. Still affordable.
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post #124 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by Rhumgod
Just to stop these posts, please, DO NOT include any apostrophes any more.

Ensign Pulver's got issues with their improper use.

Yes, that is correct use of an apostrophe
post #125 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by TWinbrook46636
And what's up with the downgrade to the video card on the top model?

Asuming that the TS specs are right, I agree with you that the 9600XT on the top model is a joke, but it's NOT a downgrade. The current 2X2 ships with a 9600 Pro with 64MB. The XT is a better card with 128MB.
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"its" possessive form of the pronoun "it".

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"it's" contraction of "it is"
"its" possessive form of the pronoun "it".

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post #126 of 164
I think we ahve a fundamental misunderstanding of what dual core provides us. Dual core provides us with SMP, it is the same SMP that one gets with dual chips except for some minor issues. How those minor issues impact the results you get with dual core chips will be dependant on a couple of things. However since we don't know the implementation details yet it realy is not worth getting wrapped up in a discussion about it.

That being said though, if Apple where to deliver a dual core iMac I'd jump on it. Priced right it would offer extremely good performance, well beyond what one could get for the price with single core SMP units.

Thanks
Dave



Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
What I mean is when we see these dual core systems (if ever) Apple better not release a SP dual core system, and say o.k., now MP is out the window this is just as good as an MP system so no more MP system's. Basically they need to use the dual core processors, but keep 2 of them in at least the highest configuration of the PowerMacs. XOEN's aren't going away any time soon.
post #127 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by The General
also changed his information on the webpage. it was updated today, but instead of leaving in the old info and putting an addition at the bottom, he wiped out most of the old info(including the tuesday announcment and changed it to 'this week')

General,

We simply updated the story to reflect new information, and marked it accordingly. In fact, the assertions in the first edition of the story are still referenced in the updated version:

"While it was previously thought that the updated Power Macs would top out at 2.6GHz..." and "Apple's initial plans called for an announcement of the G5 refresh on Tuesday, June 8..."

We're committed to providing the most detailed, reliable information as it becomes available to us, and have no intention of hiding past inaccuracies.

-Nick
post #128 of 164
Anyone see the latest rumor on ThinkSecret? I'm sorry, but after looking at all aspects of those "predicted" new displays, they are just plain bad....

Apple has been known for their "different" yet innovative products. When you look at an iMac, or even the current LCDs, you say, wow! Thats cool! And besides their looks, they have innovative features, like the iMacs LCD, and the LCDs ADC Connector, allowing you to only have to connect ONE cable, for video input, USB hub, and Power.

The display shown of TS, looks just like the rest, boxy design, DVI, power cable needed, etc. What makes that so different?

Now I'm really starting to get the feeling that Apple is just releasing FALSE information, since if Apple were to release what is depicted on TS, honestly, they have no idea what they're in for...
post #129 of 164
To be fair to TS, I'm pretty sure yesterday's story did include a sentence that said the date couldn't be positively confirmed and might change, perhaps to later in the week.
post #130 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by applejustworks2
Anyone see the latest rumor on ThinkSecret? I'm sorry, but after looking at all aspects of those "predicted" new displays, they are just plain bad....

As much as I personally dislike the design, I have to admit that it addresses many of the complaints about the current line. It's adjustable for height; it has a slimmer bezel; and it dumps ADC. I happen to love ADC but people started screaming about it the instant it was introduced.

Also, there has been discussion that ADC could not provide the power needed for the rumored 30-inch display. Apple may not have had a choice. I can't imagine this was done to draw in PC users. Apple isn't even on their radar for displays, are they? Unless Apple plans to price them very aggressively (which would be nice).
post #131 of 164
ok, atfer looking at the designs a few more times, it's not THAT bad... Although it just doesn't look Apple...It looks boxy, and kinda cheap...It's just not what I expected!
post #132 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by wizard69
I think we ahve a fundamental misunderstanding of what dual core provides us. Dual core provides us with SMP, it is the same SMP that one gets with dual chips except for some minor issues. How those minor issues impact the results you get with dual core chips will be dependant on a couple of things. However since we don't know the implementation details yet it realy is not worth getting wrapped up in a discussion about it.

That being said though, if Apple where to deliver a dual core iMac I'd jump on it. Priced right it would offer extremely good performance, well beyond what one could get for the price with single core SMP units.

Thanks
Dave

I'm not arguing that a dual core processor at 2GHz isn't identical performance wise to a 2 processor x 2GHz MP system, What I'm saying is there needs to be 2 Dual core processors per highend PowerMac.
Xeons are hyperthreaded which is the same freakin thing. They see, and work as 4 processors. MS, and Linux will have any kernel HT problems resolved before G5s hit 3GHz anyway. But what's the point of having one Dual core processor when the competitors will sell you 2? No way buckwheat. One isn't enough.
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post #133 of 164
I just read TS about the new displays. I think someone is feeding them bad info. It's hard to believe that Apple would abandon the clutter less desktop. Wouldn't they just have to upgrade the ADC to empower FireWire 800 to get the results they are talking about?
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post #134 of 164
...so the 30" display has Firewire ports. Does this mean I can plug my DV camcorder into it and playback video on it?

If so... Sweet.
post #135 of 164
If the displays can still power up the computer like the current ADC displays, I have no complaints. I'd hate to have to reach for the Powermacs powerswitch every time I start up the computer.

New monitor benefits:

The design matches the G5 better.
It is more compatible with Powerbooks.
It has a larger and possibly brighter screen.
Narrower frame.
More adjustable.
It can be sold to bigger audience (windows users).
Firewire ports.
Lower price?

All these benefits with only one drawback:

Extra cables because ADC was not used.


What's not to like?

One more thing: ATI once said that there will be more Mac retail graphics cards if Apple abandons ADC. Lets hope ATI is right.
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post #136 of 164
Well...

I just had a look at Think Secret's article and I can see the new G5 lineup is shaping up just as I expected. I guess we'll all find out soon enough but let's hope the top end machine isn't ridiculously (eg. ~$3,500) priced.

It would be nice if Apple were to suprise us with PCI-E, ATI X800 XTs and on-board RAID, but that seems unlikely at this juncture. But still...

More importantly, let's hope that IBM has ironed out the kinks in their 90nm process so we can see the G5 refresh more than once a year...


Cheers,

C.
post #137 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by BeigeUser
If the displays can still power up the computer like the current ADC displays, I have no complaints. I'd hate to have to reach for the Powermacs powerswitch every time I start up the computer.

New monitor benefits:

The design matches the G5 better.
It is more compatible with Powerbooks.
It has a larger and possibly brighter screen.
Narrower frame.
More adjustable.
It can be sold to bigger audience (windows users).
Firewire ports.
Lower price?

All these benefits with only one drawback:

Extra cables because ADC was not used.


What's not to like?

One more thing: ATI once said that there will be more Mac retail graphics cards if Apple abandons ADC. Lets hope ATI is right.

I'm guessing from the TS illustration that Apple has dealt with the clutter by incorporating all the cabling into one large cable that breaks at the computer end into USB, FW, Power, and DVI. The old AudioVision monitors had a cable that did this with ADB, VGA, Mic, and Speaker Cable, minus the power cord.

[Not directed at you Beigeuser] Another point is that this illustration is from someone who has supposedly seen it or heard a description of it and could be from a prototype. Wait till the displays come out to make any judgement calls.
post #138 of 164
Despite how shallow this may sound, I'm just happy the damn things match the G5s.

About time...only been a year.
post #139 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
I'm not arguing that a dual core processor at 2GHz isn't identical performance wise to a 2 processor x 2GHz MP system, What I'm saying is there needs to be 2 Dual core processors per highend PowerMac.
Xeons are hyperthreaded which is the same freakin thing. They see, and work as 4 processors. MS, and Linux will have any kernel HT problems resolved before G5s hit 3GHz anyway. But what's the point of having one Dual core processor when the competitors will sell you 2? No way buckwheat. One isn't enough.

Wrong!

Dual core != SMT/HT. In an SMT/HT system the execution resources are shared between the two threads so if they get busy they will slow eachother down. They may also share L1 cache resources. A dual core chip doubles the amount of execution resources and doesn't share them, except (probably) for the L2 cache... which is an advantage because it speeds up communication between the processors.

Now in the POWER5 they have a dual core SMT chip which is a single chip that can run 4 threads at once. Personally I don't think we'll see dual core in the PowerPC lineup just yet, but we very well may see SMT which would let Apple build a system roughly comparable to the Xeon you're talking about. Much faster in floating point & vector processing, I'd expect.
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post #140 of 164
What kind of performance boost do you typically get out of hyperthreading? It certainly can't be anywhere near what you'd get from a true dual chip or dual core.
post #141 of 164
I think this is definitely false info....a 20 inch studio display? Good Lord, that would just be idiotic. Cinema is where Apple is going and a 17 inch model is about as large as I would want to use.

And no, I don't recall anything in the initial report about any release dates other than today ( June 8 ).

I may be wrong, God knows I don't have anything close to TS source info, but this just doesn't seem right.
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post #142 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by Rhumgod
I think this is definitely false info....a 20 inch studio display? Good Lord, that would just be idiotic. Cinema is where Apple is going and a 17 inch model is about as large as I would want to use.

And no, I don't recall anything in the initial report about any release dates other than today ( June 8 ).

These days, 17" displays are as outdated at 15" was two years ago. Doesn't mean they aren't useable, just not anywhere near top of the line.

Think Secret definitely had a disclaimer on Monday that the release date for new G5s might change.
post #143 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
What kind of performance boost do you typically get out of hyperthreading? It certainly can't be anywhere near what you'd get from a true dual chip or dual core.

Lots of variables -- the SMT/HT implementation can vary greatly. Intel's first attempt was lame, but Prescott is better. IBM claims the POWER5 implementation is quite strong. It also depends heavily on the kind of software you are running (which is why both Intel & IBM put in controls to affect how it operates), and the design of the rest of the system. If you have lots of memory latency issues then SMT will probably run each thread at "full" speed. If you are purely computationally bound and your code is perfectly scheduled then your threads will run at less than 50% speed.

SMT is all about making better use of the execution resources you have. If you're already using them perfectly SMT won't do you any good. Most of the time, however, the processors of today are sitting waiting for things. In those cases SMT will help performance significant (in multi-threaded software). Fortunately IBM's POWER5 SMT only increased the core size by 25%. If they apply this to the 970, and double the L2 cache, that will bump the chip to (I estimate) 100 million transistors... compared to a dual core implementation of ~120 million transistors.

I'm very confident that in the future we will see multi-core chips, and I feel that there is a strong likelyhood that these cores will by SMT enabled (at least 2-way). The first step along that path is SMT because its cheaper and makes the most of what you've already got.
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post #144 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
Wrong!

Dual core != SMT/HT. In an SMT/HT system the execution resources are shared between the two threads so if they get busy they will slow eachother down. They may also share L1 cache resources. A dual core chip doubles the amount of execution resources and doesn't share them, except (probably) for the L2 cache... which is an advantage because it speeds up communication between the processors.

Now in the POWER5 they have a dual core SMT chip which is a single chip that can run 4 threads at once. Personally I don't think we'll see dual core in the PowerPC lineup just yet, but we very well may see SMT which would let Apple build a system roughly comparable to the Xeon you're talking about. Much faster in floating point & vector processing, I'd expect.

Yes but isn't that the kernel, and processor issues they are sorting out now?
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post #145 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
Xeons are hyperthreaded which is the same freakin thing. They see, and work as 4 processors.

Hyperthreading IS NOT the same as multiple cores in performance. Not even remotely close. It might appear as multiple processors but it isn't.

Later on I might post an article on IBM's multithreading too. For now I'm off to work.
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post #146 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by Telomar
Hyperthreading IS NOT the same as multiple cores in performance. Not even remotely close. It might appear as multiple processors but it isn't.

Later on I might post an article on IBM's multithreading too. For now I'm off to work.

What does it matter what they are now? Like I said previously

"Yes but isn't that the kernel, and processor issues they are sorting out now"

If your talking about right this second that may be the case, but right this second Apple is still using regular 130 nm G5's in the PowerMac anyways.
I'm referring to when Apple, and IBM provide us with a dual core processor powered PowerMac. Don't forget intel is the largest PC CPU manufacturer in the world. They are working on it just like IBM.
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post #147 of 164
Ok.. time to move to Current Hardware

Liquid cooled Dual 2.5Ghz
post #148 of 164
I just checked out Apple's web site. The link to the G5 page from the hardware page goes to the new G5. All dual-processor (1.8, 2.0, 2.5), liquid cooled, etc. Still AGP though. This was at 7:45 AM CST.

http://www.apple.com/hardware/
http://www.apple.com/powermac/
post #149 of 164
imac G5''s coming out tuesday? wow! what will the models of G5 chip will they have. the 1 cooler design or the 2 cooler design?
post #150 of 164
Alright....purchased a Dual 1.8 in the last 30 days. Is it worth the 15% restocking fee to take it back and get the New Dual 2.0? How much of an improvement will I see? Also....am I seeing that correct, that they don't come standard with an ethernet port? Add another $100? Thanks in advance.
post #151 of 164
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by burnsra
Alright....purchased a Dual 1.8 in the last 30 days. Is it worth the 15% restocking fee to take it back and get the New Dual 2.0? How much of an improvement will I see? Also....am I seeing that correct, that they don't come standard with an ethernet port? Add another $100? Thanks in advance.

No they sell an "extra" gigabit port.

I'm not too sure that it's worth the stocking fee. You should have a better video card in your computer now. The speed difference is neglible. You weren't really hurt by this upgrade. In fact no one really was except for people that just bought a dual 2Ghz
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post #152 of 164
Looks like they have Gb ethernet with an optional BTO PCI-X Gb sceondary port.
post #153 of 164
So now with the G4 PowerMacs going bye-bye, the only choice in desktops a consumer has for less than $1999 is an overpriced iMac or a 50-lb. ugly, VW Beetle-looking, eMac.

Man, WWDC better bring a lower priced consumer desktop, AIO or not.
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post #154 of 164
Weirdness:

New PowerMacs do not use the logic board pictured in leaked Service Manual photos.

New PowerMacs basically are the same systems except the dual 2.5GHz model with liquid cooling and an ATI 9600xt memory bump to 128Mb, Superdrive at 8x versus old models.

In a year's time?

Something is rotten in Denmark.

I wonder if the leaked photos were from another model? It just doesn't make sense.
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post #155 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by Rhumgod
Weirdness:

New PowerMacs do not use the logic board pictured in leaked Service Manual photos.

New PowerMacs basically are the same systems except the dual 2.5GHz model with liquid cooling and an ATI 9600xt memory bump to 128Mb, Superdrive at 8x versus old models.

In a year's time?

Something is rotten in Denmark.

I wonder if the leaked photos were from another model? It just doesn't make sense.

Yeah, I noticed that too. There are still eight memory slots (woohoo!!).
post #156 of 164
Moving this to Current Hardware...
post #157 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by Rhumgod
Weirdness:

New PowerMacs do not use the logic board pictured in leaked Service Manual photos.

I wonder if the leaked photos were from another model? It just doesn't make sense.

Or it confirms what many of us stated categorically... the pictures were fakes.
Motherboard colours were wrong. Told you so. Not a shipping model.

Perhaps Kasper, who kept proclaiming they weren't fakes, will come clean...
if not, might I suggest adding some salt to his hat to improve its flavour.
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post #158 of 164
I'm totally upset, and I await independent testing.

I think I'm going to order my Alienware system.
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post #159 of 164
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
I'm totally upset, and I await independent testing.

I think I'm going to order my Alienware system.

You really should. This update is absolutely terrible and the top end wont ship for sometime. Apple is only good for portables right now.
post #160 of 164
For a change I can understand that point of view.
This is an early January update at best, releasing this now is a farce, and an overheating, turbo-clocked farce at that.
I guess this is the highest speed 970FX we're going to see.
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