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The New G5 PowerMacs - Page 2

post #41 of 196
Quote:
Originally posted by evantandersen
imac G5's what will the low end one be? dual 1.8? or Dual 1.6

I think the iMacs will be all single cpu units to differentiate from the P Macs. Also it would be easier to design a smaller AIO machine around a single cpu.
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post #42 of 196
Hey All,

The new updates are good, but not great! I have been waiting since December to switch from PC to Mac and am a little dissapointed that we had to wait this long for what is essentially a "bump" rather than a full on update! Also, the fact we have to wait until July for the 90mm 2.5 dualie just stinks of "we havent quite sorted our yield problem yet......"

Anyway, one question - is PCI-X the same as the much touted PCI Express? If so, do you think we may finally get some PRO cards (3D) on the MAC?

mecha
post #43 of 196
I was waiting for this Rev in hope that the graphics where to have been updated. To be honest the current lineup is a joke for my everyday work.

Apple shows nice graphics on their site that displays how much faster the 2xG5:s with 2GB ram preforms 45 Photoshop effects in a row... Well here is a newsflash. I never use photoshop that way in my everyday work, and I hardly belive anyone does. However I push lots of polygons back and forward in Maya, and I do not care if the 3 times more expensive apple renders my final images 25% faster if it at the same time lags tremendeous and is two times slower in showing realtime graphics then a Dell 8300 system with 1GB RAM and a real GF FX card (about 950$).

Im pushing polys 95% of my workday.
I render during my coffe breaks.

Do I realy want to pay three times more to get shorter coffebreaks at the expense of longer workdays?

If apple is serious about 3D there must be a pro lineup soon...

The current apple lineup is like a Ferrari, Porche and BMW, but with shoppingcart-wheels option only.
post #44 of 196
Quote:
Originally posted by Yevgeny
DUAL CPU's ON THE LOW END. This is a GOOD thing. The overall price/performance ratio has gotten much better.

Honestly, if you can't afford a few hundred extra for a second CPU, then go buy an iBook or an eMac.

you're delusional.

Let me remind you that the 1.6Ghz PowerMac was released almost a year ago and did not change in price. Do you not think the cost of making that machine dropped considerably over that time as it does with every other piece of electronics in the world. you are not getting a better deal. the 1.6Ghz yesterday was a complete rip off. The new 1.8Ghz is no bargain either.

These are NOT low end towers..... 2000 dollars is not low end.....1799 is not low end. these cost a lot of money comparably and are the professional line. the ONLY reason this low end is on the crappy motherboard is that if it were on the PCI-X motherboard.... Apple would not be able to sell the more expensive middle model because there is not a large enough performance gap between the two processor alone.

This is Apple milking more money out of you, not giving you a better deal.
post #45 of 196
What a bunch of horseshit. This speedbump should have happened 4 months ago. Are we going to have to wait another 9 months for the next lineup?

Gheyest. Speedbump. Evar.

It's the G4 fiasco all over again.
post #46 of 196
This also means the rumor sites were so very wrong.
post #47 of 196
These are hardly professional-grade machines.

1. No ECC
2. Graphics cards that are two generations behind, and the damn 9800XT uses two slots!
3. No PCIe
4. No professionally certified cards (eg. NVidia Quadro)

The added feature of water cooling makes me wonder what the hell is going on. Opterons (which are faster than the G5, clock-for-clock and overall) at 2.4GHz with twice the L2 cache of the G5 require only air cooling. There are 1.5GHz Itanium 2 (blazing hot!) 1U rackmounts that are air cooled!
The Penitum 4EE processors with their huge caches and 100W+ disappation are also air cooled.

Something is very very wrong. I'm beginning to wonder if going with the G5 was a good idea. Perhaps Apple should have switched to x86 when it had the chance--they are cooler, cheaper and faster.
post #48 of 196
Quote:
Originally posted by Existence
These are hardly professional-grade machines.

1. No ECC
2. Graphics cards that are two generations behind, and the damn 9800XT uses two slots!
3. No PCIe
4. No professionally certified cards (eg. NVidia Quadro)

The added feature of water cooling makes me wonder what the hell is going on. Opterons (which are faster than the G5, clock-for-clock and overall) at 2.4GHz with twice the L2 cache of the G5 require only air cooling. There are 1.5GHz Itanium 2 (blazing hot!) 1U rackmounts that are air cooled!
The Penitum 4EE processors with their huge caches and 100W+ disappation are also air cooled.

Something is very very wrong. I'm beginning to wonder if going with the G5 was a good idea. Perhaps Apple should have switched to x86 when it had the chance--they are cooler, cheaper and faster.

Indeed...this is totally unacceptable. I would of rather not seen an upgrade at all than be stuck with this shit for another 4-9 months. Adding to the injury, this is definitely not the new 970s we've been hearing about for 9 months if the the computers require water-cooling. No decent price drop on the low-end either.

Happy 20th fucking birthday Macintosh!
post #49 of 196
Yeah, this update really sucks. I have been waiting so damn long to buy either a Powermac or an iMac. The G5s haven't been updated for a year and this is what they come out with? Only one new model and higher prices.

What the hell is going through Apple's head when the entry-level model is $1999 and comes with 256 MB RAM, 80 GB HD and a GeForce FX 5200???

I was waiting for a low-end model to be at least 2.0 Ghz with 512 MB RAM, 160 GB HD and a Radeon 9600 Pro.

This is not a good plan on Apple's part to get people to buy their hardware. I was going to wait till June 28 anyway, but now I'll have to wait possibly longer to see if Apple fills the gap b/w the OLD models and the new 2.5 Ghz.
post #50 of 196
This tops it: 2.5GHz not shipping until July.

We all know the translation to this is: 2.5GHz not shipping until September.

Thanks Apple.
post #51 of 196
I don't believe these are actually "new" machines. Rather, Apple, after overpredicting sales of the original G5s, probably overstocked motherboards, graphics cards, hard drives and RAM. Or perhaps the infrastructure (tooling, etc) for this design has not reached a "breakeven" and more units need to be produced at a profit.

Either way, there are probably some financial considerations for Apple selling this one-year-old crap. But there is bad news. Some people who have ordered 2.5GHz G5 have recieved August shipping dates. This means we have to wait at least 2-3 months after August before we can expect new machines (October-November).

This explains the crappy configurations, but does not explain the heat issues with the 2.5GHz G5 or why they are not at 3GHz like they promised. I wonder if Steve will apologize at WWDC.
post #52 of 196
256 RAM in ANY machine, even lowest end iBooks, is retarded. Put in 384 bare minimum. It's the cheapest thing which arguably would have the most impact, to change. Most people do NOT understand how RAM works or even what it's called, so they open up 20 applications, don't restart for weeks, and don't understand why there brand new Mac is slow, when they are running on 256 RAM. WTF mate?

Heresy Existence!!! But I'm wondering why they need water-cooling too...However you have to take in to account G5s are quieter than air-cooled PCs with hot chips. Still, I have to wonder too, if these are the new 90nm G5s then why the drastic cooling? They should make the water cooling system fluorescent or something.
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post #53 of 196
Thanks Apple, I was excited by this update. Today I am disapointed, especially for the video cards and others features. I will wait until the next real revision.
post #54 of 196
Hey long time applenut!
Quote:
onestly, if you can't afford a few hundred extra for a second CPU, then go buy an iBook or an eMac.

They need a low end desktop. Some people don't want an all-in-one computer. They need either a G4 tower, like $899 or something, or they need a single 1.8 at $1499 or at most $1599. We were going to buy a low end G5 for my house, but not for 2 g. There would be nothing wrong with PowerMac G4's coming back, PCs have Celerys I mean Celerons. It's just a stigma. Jobs probably wouldn't think it would "look good." But it would make good business sense, and they already have the design, the old Speed Holes case.

Also what does this liquid cooling business mean for G5 PowerBooks? Not anytime soon is my guess. If these are 90nm chips it's weird they need extra cooling in an already incredibly designed case.
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post #55 of 196
Quote:
Originally posted by Existence
This means we have to wait at least 2-3 months after August before we can expect new machines (October-November).

Stop it. They're not going to release new PowerMacs 2-3 months after shipping the previous generation. This is it for 2004.
post #56 of 196
Why is liquid cooling necessary for a 2.5GHz 970fx chip?

Here's one thing I do not understand:
Wasn't the 970fx chip supposed to be running a lot cooler than the first generation 970? Wasn't this the whole idea of the 970fx to allow it to run as cool as a 2.0GHz 970 chip at 2.5GHz?

Why then does the new 2.5GHz PowerMac have liquid cooling? Apple wouldn't add this unless it would be absolutely necessary.

If you ask me this does not bode well for a 3.0Ghz (or dare we hope 3.4GHz) chip. 3.4Ghz G5s (i.e. 'Intel-speed') would probably need liquid nitrogen cooling. \

I feel that the 970fx is a big disappointment. With liquid cooling required at 2.5GHz, I do not see this chip making 3.0GHz ever.

Let's hope the Power5 derived chip is a lot better, whatever its name. And let's hope it get's used in a PowerMac this year...
post #57 of 196
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Stop it. They're not going to release new PowerMacs 2-3 months after shipping the previous generation. This is it for 2004.

I think you're forgetting the June 1999 update to the Blue and White G3s. Apple, in June 1999, boosted the speed by 50MHz and changed specifications of it's Blue and White G3s in early June of 1999 as a move to clear inventory. Then, in September 1999 Apple introduced the PowerMac G4 that began shipping in October of that year.

It can happen. This update screams "Let's clear our inventory for the next generation."
post #58 of 196
I think all of you need to take some chill pills. Apple probably should not have promised a 3GHz G5 within a year, but IBM obviously made it sound as if they would be at that point. Apple couldn't create a new lineup with no new chips from IBM. Thus, they did what they could by creating a 500mhz increase for the top end, making all PMs dual, and creating a better deal for your money. People complain about ECC, PCI express, and all these others features they want added when only 1% of the buyers need them. I've got news for you guys, more advanced features means higher prices. Apple has to make a profit on these machines. It is pretty dumb to get mad at them for trying to create situations where their profit is maximized. What do you expect them to do? Apple took PCI-X out of the bottom end cause it saves you money and creates more for apple. If you are a heavy pro user you are not going to be buying the low end anyway. You all sound like socialists complaining about apple stealing your money and shit. YOU GUYS PISS ME OFF!!!

You people make it sound as if apple intentionally fucked you over with these updates. Steve Jobs must be sitting in his office thinking of how to screw his customers over the best he can. You guys are paranoid IMHO. Apple did what they could in light of the situation. If IBM had delivered I'm sure things would have been different.

Before everyone bitches about a 2000 entry price, please remember that the new iMac G5 will be like a low end tower in many ways.

I repeat: IT IS NOT APPLE'S FAULT IBM COULDN'T DELIVER!!! NOTHING CAN BE DONE BUT HOPE THE ENGINEERS HAVE BETTER LUCK IN THE COMING MONTHS. APPLE CAN ALWAYS CHANGE THE LINEUP AS MORE CPUS BECOME AVAILABLE.
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post #59 of 196
Not a great update, but we'll still buy them. I wish the video cards were 9800 class, base RAM should be doubled, and the optical drives could be dual layer. I'm sort of glad we can still use our normal PCI cards and not forced to buy all new PCIe cards.
post #60 of 196
Quote:
Originally posted by hobBIT
[B]Why then does the new 2.5GHz PowerMac have liquid cooling? Apple wouldn't add this unless it would be absolutely necessary.

Sure they would. It's a test run for the next chip that *NEEDS* it. Look at the case, from day 1 it's been obvious that it was designed to last through years, not months, of updates and product changes. Yeah, we'll probably see a case retool with the G6 (whenever that hits), especially on the outside where marketing can plug it, but the innards are pretty amazingly thought out. There's room to grow, if they choose. Liquid cooling is a natural fit with this progression.
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post #61 of 196
They are charging $300 to upgrade from the 9600 to the 9800 (a slightly better version of last-gen tech), which is paltry compared to the modern top of the line cards that they should be offering as standard.

This release is all about profit margins. Since they know that sales will be even worse than the first G5 release.
post #62 of 196
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Stop it. They're not going to release new PowerMacs 2-3 months after shipping the previous generation. This is it for 2004.

Quote:
Originally posted by Existence
I think you're forgetting the June 1999 update to the Blue and White G3s. [....]
It can happen. This update screams "Let's clear our inventory for the next generation."

Even though I respect the optimism of Existence. I think BRussell is right... The 2.5 wont even be shipping until august/september. The B&W update shipped immediately, and we knew the G4 wouldn't be far off. In this case, there is no next-gen to move to anytime soon. Apple confirmed that today in the MacCentral article. IBM is obviously having major troubles.

The only suspicious thing is that the motherboard doesn't match the ones shown in the manual pics here at AI. They were retrofitting existing inventories of B&W machines for that update. Do we have other evidence they are doing that here though?
post #63 of 196
The most obvious reason they added liquid cooling was so they could create a less noisy machine. The fans can run slower and less often and people won't get sucked into the machines and killed. Someone was bitching about how all these x86 chips don't need it, well thats cause they have huge fans that are really noisy. Apple is trying to avoid the wind tunnel effect.
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post #64 of 196
"Thus, they did what they could"
I dont realy care if the processor is 2.5 or 3.0.
The main problem (at least for me)is the graphic card options.

Like I said, the current apple lineup is like a Ferrari, Porshe and BMW, but with shoppingcart-wheels option only.

They could deliver a GF-card that is not a joke.... that is a pretty easy thing to do.
post #65 of 196
I didn't realize the 9600XT was a joke? I thought it was considered a rather good card. Maybe i'm wrong? What should they be putting in them?
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post #66 of 196
Quote:
Originally posted by hobBIT
Why is liquid cooling necessary for a 2.5GHz 970fx chip?

According to IBM (pdf file), the 970 typically consumes 51W at 1.8 Ghz, while the FX consumes 24.5 W at 2 Ghz. But that's typical. the "Junction temperature range," and I have no idea what that means, is 0-85 C in the 970 but 0-105 C in the FX. Could it be that with the ability to switch to lower power, the "typical" temp is lower, but the thing in reality has a higher maximum heat? So the liquid cooling is required to use it at its fullest?
post #67 of 196
Algol,
a Quadro or a Fire

otherwise it just isn´t pro 3D...
post #68 of 196
Quote:
Originally posted by Existence
This update screams "Let's clear our inventory for the next generation."

Considering the lack of new graphic cards, more HD bays, a second removable drive bay, PCIe, EEC RAM, the lack of 3.0+GHz speeds,... it does seems a bit like a stopgap update.

Unless Apple will surprise us with a new 'workstation' class hardware segment.

They could easily introduce a new 'MacStation' line within the next 6 months since they would not replace existing PowerMacs.
Why not already in August? Apple has (reportedly a big) stand at SIGGRAPH 2004 in mid August. Apple has not been an exhibitor at SIGGRAPH for many years. Why this year? To show PowerMac G5s and Xserve RAIDs?
Or will they only demo software like Final Cut Pro and Shake...
Pixar has its own booth.
post #69 of 196
Quote:
Originally posted by Existence
I think you're forgetting the June 1999 update to the Blue and White G3s. Apple, in June 1999, boosted the speed by 50MHz and changed specifications of it's Blue and White G3s in early June of 1999 as a move to clear inventory. Then, in September 1999 Apple introduced the PowerMac G4 that began shipping in October of that year.

It could happen, but how likely is it? You can find one example in how many years? And even that example involved a hopelessly bungled G4 introduction.

You can almost feel Steve's personality causing these problems. He's incredibly optimistic and gets people to work hard for him, but at the same time he makes these stupid projections (100 million iTunes sales, 3 Ghz G5).
post #70 of 196
Wow, totally underwhelming and very disappointing.

I guess this just proves that IBM IS no better than Motorola. Perhaps Apple is in the wrong chip camp?

It has been a full year with these G5 chips and the best IBM can do is .5 Ghz and it is not even shipping yet. Shipping in July? My ass.....shipping in July is pathetic enough but we all know it won't ship until September.

That makes me laugh. Apple never changes.

Apple should NOT promise what they can't deliver.

-Dr.Bimane
post #71 of 196
Christ.

After all the grief with MOTO and the f**k**g G4 we now have this horsesh*t.

Is it simply too much to ask for apple just for once to get it right?

How can they expect to sell computers when people are always convinced that a better deal is round the corner becuase apple's updates always seem too little too late?

I believe that jobs is seeking to dump the whole mac thing in favour of apple becoming an ipod, itunes, software company.

How MOTO must be laughing . . .
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post #72 of 196
Quote:
Originally posted by hobBIT
Why is liquid cooling necessary for a 2.5GHz 970fx chip?

Here's one thing I do not understand:
Wasn't the 970fx chip supposed to be running a lot cooler than the first generation 970? Wasn't this the whole idea of the 970fx to allow it to run as cool as a 2.0GHz 970 chip at 2.5GHz?

Why then does the new 2.5GHz PowerMac have liquid cooling? Apple wouldn't add this unless it would be absolutely necessary.

If you ask me this does not bode well for a 3.0Ghz (or dare we hope 3.4GHz) chip. 3.4Ghz G5s (i.e. 'Intel-speed') would probably need liquid nitrogen cooling. \

I feel that the 970fx is a big disappointment. With liquid cooling required at 2.5GHz, I do not see this chip making 3.0GHz ever.

Let's hope the Power5 derived chip is a lot better, whatever its name. And let's hope it get's used in a PowerMac this year...

I don't see it that way. i see it as Apple introducing a new cooling method to their units. the 1.8 and 2.0GHz machines use the regular 130nm 970 processors so they continue to use the same coooling method. With the new 970FX they can rework their heatsink and cooling method. Maybe make room for even more processors or the eventual dual core processors.
post #73 of 196
Everyone conveniently missed your question...

PCI-X and PCIexpress are 2 different animals. PCI-X is a doubled version of PCI. PCI Express can be considered AGP 12x but 12x both ways. Current AGP is 8x one way and 1X the other way.

To the person that said it would have been stupid to move to pci express because then you couldn't use your old cards. All they would replace with pci express is the agp slot... your pci-x slots and pci slots would remain there. 2 different animals.

This update is very mystifying. I stayed up all night last night programming UDP packet programs for my final Software Engineering class today, so I'm really out of it. But true it isn't apple's fault on the speed.

As far as the Liquid Cooling... 2 things. One was already mentioned and that was noise. But another major thing has been forgotten... the rev a g5's had powersupply issues... they had what 12 fans on dual models? With the liquid cooling i'm sure this significantly cut power consumption... how big are the new Power Supplies in these machines?

Also has anyone else verified if the dual 1.8 and dual 2 are 970fx yet?

Quote:
Originally posted by mecha
Hey All,

The new updates are good, but not great! I have been waiting since December to switch from PC to Mac and am a little dissapointed that we had to wait this long for what is essentially a "bump" rather than a full on update! Also, the fact we have to wait until July for the 90mm 2.5 dualie just stinks of "we havent quite sorted our yield problem yet......"

Anyway, one question - is PCI-X the same as the much touted PCI Express? If so, do you think we may finally get some PRO cards (3D) on the MAC?

mecha

 

 

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post #74 of 196
Quote:
Originally posted by hobBIT
Why is liquid cooling necessary for a 2.5GHz 970fx chip?

Uh...so it remains as quiet as the Rev A G5s.
post #75 of 196
Apple finally publicly stated that they will not get to 3.0GHz any time soon. Nor will the G5 make it into PowerBooks this year. And they are not even sure about iMacs.

It almost seems that Apple itself is a bit disappointed the way the G5 turned out (at least in the near future).

Perhaps this is why Jon Rubinstein left the Mac hardware division to look for greener pastures in the iPod division?

Let's face it. It definitely does not look good for any PowerMac updates this year. 2.5GHz that's going to be it until MWSF 2005 at the least.
post #76 of 196
For the low end tower with a 128MB 9600 XT card, AppleCare, and a 17 inch monitor, the total comes out to $4,029 Canadian, and that's using the educational discount. That is not a low-end tower. How in the bloody does Apple expect to pick up users with costs like that on their low-end machines?
post #77 of 196
This probably doesn't deserve a thread of its own since it's related to the new G5s, but has anyone noticed what's wrong with this picture?



Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm pretty sure the 1.8 GHz model shouldn't have been tested twice.
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post #78 of 196
Quote:
Originally posted by Jim Paradise
For the low end tower with a 128MB 9600 XT card, AppleCare, and a 17 inch monitor, the total comes out to $4,029 Canadian, and that's using the educational discount. That is not a low-end tower. How in the bloody does Apple expect to pick up users with costs like that on their low-end machines?

Exactly. That's the only real major gripe I have with this speedbump round of revisions. The low-end (low priced) desktop market has not been addressed.

I think Apple believes that only creative professionals with deep pockets want expandability. I admit, I personally don't but I'm guessing a large segment of users want that option, but don't want to spend megabucks.

Perhaps Apple will surprise us and introduce a single processor G5 consumer tower for under a thousand ( I doubt it). Or maybe this market will be soon be addressed by a somewhat expandable 3rd gen iMac (crossess fingers) at WWDC.
post #79 of 196
Quote:
Originally posted by mlnjr

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm pretty sure the 1.8 GHz model shouldn't have been tested twice.

Makes you wonder if the lineup was originally intended to be dual 1.6, 1.8 and 2.0 only.
post #80 of 196
LOL, looks like they forgot the 2.5 and the 2.0. Unless that 1.8 has no apps running while the other one....
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