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Could this mean "Powermac Extreme" at WWDC? - Page 2

post #41 of 78
Ok, unless nobody else has mentioned it...

I may be just trying to keep hope alive, but what about the difference in the design of the inside? The new 2.5's have the same setup in the 'innards' as the original 1.6, 1.8 & 2.0 G5 models, but what about the new inside design that showed up in the developer manuals that Apple released just recently? Not to mention the new PowerMac 8,1 kernel ?driver? that showed up in the recent update.

Nope! Too much is keeping my dreams alive...
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post #42 of 78
Quote:
Originally posted by MacMorsel
Ok, unless nobody else has mentioned it...

I may be just trying to keep hope alive, but what about the difference in the design of the inside? The new 2.5's have the same setup in the 'innards' as the original 1.6, 1.8 & 2.0 G5 models, but what about the new inside design that showed up in the developer manuals that Apple released just recently? Not to mention the new PowerMac 8,1 kernel ?driver? that showed up in the recent update.

Nope! Too much is keeping my dreams alive...

Difference in design is likely due to pre-production systems used in photos. the PowerMac8,1 machine code references iMac/eMacs - PowerMacs use odd numbers (1,3,5 and the most recent 7). iMacs/eMacs use evens (2, 3, 4, 6 and most recent 8).

This is a new iMac or something completely different. I am guessing iMac with a totally new processor. Think Freescale or IBM (not a G5 though).
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post #43 of 78
fyi, the 2.5 ghz g5's have a ship date of on or before 8/2/04.
post #44 of 78
Quote:
fyi, the 2.5 ghz g5's have a ship date of on or before 8/2/04.

Y'know, a lot of people complain that Apple never gives the consumer a heads up on what's coming next, but let's face it - their "releases" are essentially roadmaps in disguise.

C.
post #45 of 78
Are you people nuts? "Poor chip development" wow. The G5 @ 2.5 GHz with 1.25 GHz FSB's is absolutely screaming fast. I use a 1.5 GHz G4 PowerBook and I know it is a fast machine, one can only imagine what a 2.5 G5 feels like! Tiger will probably even be extremely efficient with it too, so there is nothing to really bitch about. Apple is coming along just fine. 500 MHz bump on the high end in a year, and 90nm with 250 MHz faster FSB's, makes this a pretty sizeable upgrade.

Stop planning purchases on the rumors and start buying on the news and the basis of real need. If you need a G5 at this time you are lucky, because it now is a lot faster than it was yesterday.

I am not an Apple apologist, simply a voice of reason in the chaotic and kiddie-ridden rumor world. Shut the fuck up about not getting 500 more MHz, thanks.
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post #46 of 78
Quote:
And what makes you think IBM didn't scrap any almost completed chips?

Can you name a chip that was on IBM's roadmap that they scrapped? We KNOW Intel dumped two chips... The only IBM chip that might qualify is the 750VX (or whatever it was called), but I don't really think it counts-- for one thing, I believe it was only rumored to exist, and it was based on the previous 750 designs, not the 970.

Quote:
I also dread these games Apple plays by offering a dual 1.8 with reduced features than the dual 1.8 it seemingly replaces. Why did they remove the PCI-X from the dual 1.8 models?

You're approaching it from the wrong direction. Think of it like this: For an extra $200, the low end Powermac gains an extra processor, 200MHz more speed for that processor, 100MHz for the bus, and 67MHz for the memory. That's a pretty hefty improvement, if you ask me. The low end makes a pretty strong showing in price/performance now, whereas yesterday it was the weak spot in the line.

At any rate, I'm a bit disappointed in this update, as well-- I was hoping they'd be something like 2.0, 2.2, & 2.5, at least; 2.2, 2.4, and 2.6 preferably.
post #47 of 78
The only change I can see Apple making is a Yikes!-style refresh, where the two low end configurations move to the 970fx and get bumped to, say, 2.0 and 2.25GHz, or something like that. The bottom two machines are stopgap-looking enough that I can imagine them having fairly short shelf lives, like the Yikes! machine did. But not so short that they'll pop up at WWDC.

However, that's the most that will happen for at least 6 months, and probably longer. IBM admitted that they'd only nearly caught up to projected yields on 130nm 970s this spring; obviously 90nm is giving them real headaches, and that's delaying the 970fx and likely the presumed "975" as well.

I don't think Apple is going to go much higher end than the PowerMac. Their philosophy has been to bring pro gear down out of the stratosphere, polish it up, and make it available to a much wider audience. I don't see them offering $10K workstations when their strategy is to kill $10K workstations. The PMG5 is it. Maybe Apple will preview a fire-breathing dual 975 at WWDC for a select few? Who knows? But I don't see anything like that actually appearing until late this year/early next year, and when it does go on sale it'll be at the PowerMac's price point.
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post #48 of 78
Quote:
Stop planning purchases on the rumors and start buying on the news and the basis of real need. If you need a G5 at this time you are lucky, because it now is a lot faster than it was yesterday.


Messiahtosh- That is the most salient advice you have ever given on these boards.

If we attach a cost and benefit to every computer technology purchase we can quickly make sense of relative value.


PCI Express- Does absolutely nothing to increase today's productivity

2.5Ghz- Increased speed

More HD bays- Small productivity gains

Graphics cards- Some people can experience big gains in productivity. We need more options.

Do we envy PC users that much that we should emulte them? We have OSX. We relish great software over great hardware. Isn't that what a Mac user is?

Computer Hardware is a commodity. You piece together controllers and busses and voila. Software is crafted in line after line of code. There's a certain magic in a well made application. Software provides the experience hardware is a panacea. Humans are the slowest component and the easiest way to affect change there is via software improvements..not hardware.
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post #49 of 78
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph:
The only change I can see Apple making is a Yikes!-style refresh, where the two low end configurations move to the 970fx and get bumped to, say, 2.0 and 2.25GHz, or something like that. The bottom two machines are stopgap-looking enough that I can imagine them having fairly short shelf lives, like the Yikes! machine did. But not so short that they'll pop up at WWDC.

However, that's the most that will happen for at least 6 months, and probably longer. IBM admitted that they'd only nearly caught up to projected yields on 130nm 970s this spring; obviously 90nm is giving them real headaches, and that's delaying the 970fx and likely the presumed "975" as well.

It's good see that there is at least some level-headed expectations out here...

That pretty much mirrors my own expectations, not to say that I don't hope they'll do better... 8)


Cheers,

C.
post #50 of 78
I got one of two predictions right in saying that the new G5 would be liquid cooled. I still believe the photo and firmware removed by Apple legal point to something else besides these computers released today. The investment in the new design is minimal for Apple so they could easily bring out a total redesign in the near future.

A single large heatsink (smaller than two existing heat sinks) like shown in the removed photo could easily hide the SMC/CMC Power5 chip that is all the HOT news at IBM for high-end use. IBM says this chip design is the future of computing and I believe Apple is thinking the same thing. It is in the same PowerPC family and is already adapted to AIX, etc... which would probably make it easily adaptable to get OSX running on it.

Right now it is only available in expensive servers but what would it take to drive the cost down... volume sales, smaller fabrication technology, etc.... And remember Apple only has to drive costs down if they want to sell this type of box to the general consumer market. If Apple wants to compete with IBM in servers then I doubt if IBM would have a problem selling them the chips as IBM would likely not think it will affect their Wintel market sales.

post #51 of 78

Regarding the service manual discrepency, I've heard that there is only one heatsink cover on the new ones and that the line you see is just an etched line on the surface of the metal cover.

C.
post #52 of 78
Quote:
Originally posted by Concord

Regarding the service manual discrepency, I've heard that there is only one heatsink cover on the new ones and that the line you see is just an etched line on the surface of the metal cover.

C.


But in the service manual, there is only one logo centered on the heatsink cover.
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post #53 of 78
Quote:
Originally posted by MacMorsel:
But in the service manual, there is only one logo centered on the heatsink cover.

But note that the image here has had the logos clearly photoshopped in. There could have easily been a change inbetween them.

C.
post #54 of 78
Quote:
Originally posted by Concord
I've heard that there is only one heatsink cover on the new ones and that the line you see is just an etched line on the surface of the metal cover.

C.

Looking at the full-sized PR image, your right. The line is etched and doesn't extend completely to either side.

Perhaps the service manual image was an earlier version, who knows.
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post #55 of 78
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph
The only change I can see Apple making is a Yikes!-style refresh, where the two low end configurations move to the 970fx and get bumped to, say, 2.0 and 2.25GHz, or something like that. The bottom two machines are stopgap-looking enough that I can imagine them having fairly short shelf lives, like the Yikes! machine did. But not so short that they'll pop up at WWDC.

However, that's the most that will happen for at least 6 months, and probably longer. IBM admitted that they'd only nearly caught up to projected yields on 130nm 970s this spring; obviously 90nm is giving them real headaches, and that's delaying the 970fx and likely the presumed "975" as well.

Right on Amorph. To be honest I suspected it was only going to be a 2.5ghz 90nm 970fx update. However I thought for sure the low end would be @ 2ghz with another squeezed in between.

If they can fit TWO 970fx cpu's running at 2ghz in a 1u rackspace server, then they can fit ONE running @ 1.6-1.8ghz in a re-designed compact desktop box for sure.

The 3ghz answer is NOT going to be an overclocked 130nm 970 or 90nm 970fx. It will have to come from a new chip, the power 5 variant we presume. The only thing is that the Power 5 is a 130nm chip. I just hope they don't need to scale THIS chip to 90nm as well to achieve higher clock speeds of 3ghz and up. Or if they do, that they have learned all the 'hard lessons' with the 970fx and it will be a smooth transition.
post #56 of 78
What if Steve announce New workstation class PowerMac G5 at WWDC ?

He will not do this since this WWDC is for much bigger announcement.

I think we will see something just before Siggraph,Aug 8

http://www.siggraph.org/cgi-bin/cgi/...&CompanyID=833
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Apple ignited the personal computer revolution in the 1970s with the Apple II and reinvented the personal computer in the 1980s with the Macintosh. Apple is committed to bringing the best personal computing experience to students, educators, creative professionals and consumers around the world through its innovative hardware and software.


Categories

2D Graphics
3D Graphics
Animation
Authoring Software
Desktop Publishing
Desktop Video Production Software
Digital Imaging
Encoders/Decoders
Graphic Design Systems
Graphics Standards Software
Motion Capture Software
Multimedia Tools and Applications
Rendering and Modeling
Streaming Technology
Video Encoding and Compression
Visual Effects Software
Web Graphics
Digital Video Hardware
DVD Authoring Tools
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Monitors and Displays
Multimedia Tools and Applications-HW
Networking Equipment
RAID Systems and Storage
Terminals, Monitors and Displays
Video Servers
Workstations
Education/Training

------------------------------------------------------

Last year, while Apple had a "strong" presence at Siggraph 2003, they did not hold an official booth... This year Apple is reported to have one of the largest (booth) presences of any vendor in the show.

http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/...06052725.shtml

Something like this;

SAME case as G5 for one model and larger case for future model

CPU : 4 x 2.5GHZ G5 with liquied cooling.

*Dual core can be applied in future with larger case


Memory: 8 slot module for max 64GB capabilty with 64 bit OS

Graphic: several option available with PCI Express

PCI Express

http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/...03213724.shtml

http://news.com.com/2110-1001-885582.html

1) Wildcat Realizm from 3Dlabs for CAD & 2D CG

http://www.3dlabs.com/whatsnew/press...ealizmtech.htm

Do you remember this story ?

http://www.appleinsider.com/news.php?id=210

2)FireGL from ATI

http://www.ati.com/products/workstation.html

3)Quadro¢ç FX 4000 class card with PCI Express from NVidia

http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_11761.html

* One interesting note in here is "DVI-I+DVI-I+Stereo" This is for future plan


Architecture & BUS :ALL 3 independent 133MHz PCI-X with HyperTransport and Numa based internal architechture

As we know now by this;

http://www.apple.com/powermac/architecture.html

Optical Drive: Dual-layer DVD-R from LG(?)

http://www.lge.com/catalog/prodsubca...&parentId=ROOT
Click "Optical storage"

And APPLE will support Blue-laser in future.

What do you think ?
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post #57 of 78
Quote:
Originally posted by kormac77
CPU : 4 x 2.5GHZ G5 with liquied cooling.

Kormac, just say no to drugs. Do you see where to cram 2 more CPUs with these heat sinks in these enclosures? Or do you suggest a 40kg PowerMac, twice as big as now?
Quote:
And APPLE will support Blue-laser in future.

How many years from now? Will it ever become a wide-spread thing at all?
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post #58 of 78
Is it possible that the supposed service manual picture is from the new 1.8 GHz model. It has the older PCI versus PCI-x slots and can handle only 4 Gig of ram. All the pictures that are on Apple's web site might be of the 2 and 2.5 G machines.

I guess we will know when someone actually gets a new one.


Edit: I see I wasn't the first one: Case discussion I guess great minds think alike.
post #59 of 78
Quote:
Originally posted by colletti
The 3ghz answer is NOT going to be an overclocked 130nm 970 or 90nm 970fx. It will have to come from a new chip, the power 5 variant we presume. The only thing is that the Power 5 is a 130nm chip. I just hope they don't need to scale THIS chip to 90nm as well to achieve higher clock speeds of 3ghz and up. Or if they do, that they have learned all the 'hard lessons' with the 970fx and it will be a smooth transition.

I agree that a new chip (presumably POWER5 related) will be needed to hit 3 GHz. It will appear at 90nm -- I doubt we'll see a 130nm variant of it. Getting the 970FX working on 90nm with decent yields should benefit the next chip(s) as well so it ought to go smoother. Hopefully they figure out their material science well enough to support the higher clock rates as well, but I have to wonder if the clock rate ceiling is here. Perhaps Intel will never hit 4 GHz in a production model, and IBM won't pass 3 GHz? What then?
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post #60 of 78
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
Perhaps Intel will never hit 4 GHz in a production model, and IBM won't pass 3 GHz? What then?

Cell. Ready or not, here it comes.

On the Intel side, it'll take the M series a while to get up to those clockspeeds — if they ever get there — and so we'll finally see the rise of the "many hands make light work" school of system design that people have been predicting for something like 25 years now.
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post #61 of 78
Quad xMac exist for years at prototype stage. What will be the market for such extreme computing. pMac with xgrid and xsan are very scalable form one to more than thousand of unit.

What should be the price of a Quad xMac? Less than 5k$. Is it viable for Apple?

For people who are expecting 3 GHz G5. Do you saturate a 2x2GHz CPU already
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post #62 of 78
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
Are you people nuts? "Poor chip development" wow. The G5 @ 2.5 GHz with 1.25 GHz FSB's is absolutely screaming fast. I use a 1.5 GHz G4 PowerBook and I know it is a fast machine, one can only imagine what a 2.5 G5 feels like! Tiger will probably even be extremely efficient with it too, so there is nothing to really bitch about. Apple is coming along just fine. 500 MHz bump on the high end in a year, and 90nm with 250 MHz faster FSB's, makes this a pretty sizeable upgrade.

Stop planning purchases on the rumors and start buying on the news and the basis of real need. If you need a G5 at this time you are lucky, because it now is a lot faster than it was yesterday.

I am not an Apple apologist, simply a voice of reason in the chaotic and kiddie-ridden rumor world. Shut the fuck up about not getting 500 more MHz, thanks.

That is one chip in one machine. The rest is lagging. A 1.25 G4? Are you kidding.
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post #63 of 78
Quote:
Originally posted by kormac77
What if Steve announce New workstation class PowerMac G5 at WWDC ?

If the new screens are kept in reserve until the WWDC, there must be a good chance that either a headless SP G5 or xStation is contemporaneously announced.

Reminds me of the Cube, one more thing...

MacPro 2 x 3GHz, 8GB RAM, 4x1000 HD, 2x23" ACD
15" rMBP; 17" MBP

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MacPro 2 x 3GHz, 8GB RAM, 4x1000 HD, 2x23" ACD
15" rMBP; 17" MBP

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post #64 of 78
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
Are you people nuts? "Poor chip development" wow. The G5 @ 2.5 GHz with 1.25 GHz FSB's is absolutely screaming fast. I use a 1.5 GHz G4 PowerBook and I know it is a fast machine, one can only imagine what a 2.5 G5 feels like! Tiger will probably even be extremely efficient with it too, so there is nothing to really bitch about. Apple is coming along just fine. 500 MHz bump on the high end in a year, and 90nm with 250 MHz faster FSB's, makes this a pretty sizeable upgrade.

Stop planning purchases on the rumors and start buying on the news and the basis of real need. If you need a G5 at this time you are lucky, because it now is a lot faster than it was yesterday.

I am not an Apple apologist, simply a voice of reason in the chaotic and kiddie-ridden rumor world. Shut the fuck up about not getting 500 more MHz, thanks.

I have no problems with the 2.5GHz update. The things I have issue with are lack of updates throughout the system - same video, same storage, etc... Not updating the video to "current" models but rather using kit that is 2 generations-old tech is simply inexcusable.
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post #65 of 78
Quote:
Originally posted by Rhumgod
I have no problems with the 2.5GHz update. The things I have issue with are lack of updates throughout the system - same video, same storage, etc... Not updating the video to "current" models but rather using kit that is 2 generations-old tech is simply inexcusable.

The price cut is significant for me
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post #66 of 78
Quote:
Originally posted by costique
Kormac, just say no to drugs. Do you see where to cram 2 more CPUs with these heat sinks in these enclosures? Or do you suggest a 40kg PowerMac, twice as big as now?
How many years from now? Will it ever become a wide-spread thing at all?

Kormac is excited because he thinks the heat pipe in the new G5's is really a crack pipe.
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post #67 of 78
Quote:
Originally posted by anand
Kormac is excited because he thinks the heat pipe in the new G5's is really a crack pipe.

go away
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post #68 of 78
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
go away

You first

You've been defensive/rude since the new PMs were released. Problems?
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post #69 of 78
Apple fans are so funny.

Everything is always "wait until X comes out"; substitute your favorite pipedream product in for X.

For example, we always heard "Wait until the G5 comes out. We will blow Intel away with it." Then the G5 came and we barely caught up with Intel.

Then it was, "Oh, just wait until Jaguar is optimized for the G5. It will scream." Then, Jaguar came and went and we made no huge leaps in speed (just modest ones).

Now, it is "Wait until Tiger comes out" and "Wait until we have 3.0 Ghz G5's" and "Wait until blah blah blah...."

Shit. It was even "Motorola sucks....wait until we switch to an all IBM line-up." For Christ's sake, IBM is having the same problems as Motorola.

Perhaps we all should see the writing on the wall....?

-Dr.Bimane
post #70 of 78
Dr Bimane. It's because they're not using the computers to earn money. Enthusiasts live for the "next big thing" so waiting in perpetuity becomes the de rigeur of their existence.

I'm through with waiting. I'm going to get a Mac and start using all the cool software that is available and let that take me where it does.
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post #71 of 78
Quote:
Shit. It was even "Motorola sucks....wait until we switch to an all IBM line-up." For Christ's sake, IBM is having the same problems as Motorola.

Maybe, if this speed bump was from 1.6, Dual 1.8, Dual 2.0 to 1.4, Dual 1.6 and 1.8. As it is, AMD, Intel and IBM are all not having much luck with the 90um transition.
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post #72 of 78
Quote:
Originally posted by DVD_Junkie
If the dual 2.5 is using the 970FX and the machine is running this hot, you can kiss goodbye to a dual 3.0GHz anytime soon. I would've thought the 970FX would be running so much cooler than the 970's but alas it would seem that the 90nm fabrication hasn't helped all that much. Is Apple going to have to wait for the 70nm to get a G5 in the PB's?

Finally, PPC's have traditionally ran cooler than the Pentiums but is that no longer the case? From what I know first hand, a Pentium 4 2.8GHz uses a smaller heatsink than a single G4 1.25 so while IBM can give Apple faster processors, Apple is stuck having to work with hotter chips. A tough challenge for sure. IBM needs to get their act together. Maybe, Apple should get Intel to fab the G5

they are cooler but remaining air cooled would require loud fans and with the future being hotter the liwuid cooler was inserted now it is also 90nm meaning the heat ids coming out f a smaller space than older chips (130nm)
post #73 of 78
Quote:
Originally posted by DVD_Junkie
If the dual 2.5 is using the 970FX and the machine is running this hot, you can kiss goodbye to a dual 3.0GHz anytime soon. I would've thought the 970FX would be running so much cooler than the 970's but alas it would seem that the 90nm fabrication hasn't helped all that much. Is Apple going to have to wait for the 70nm to get a G5 in the PB's?

Finally, PPC's have traditionally ran cooler than the Pentiums but is that no longer the case? From what I know first hand, a Pentium 4 2.8GHz uses a smaller heatsink than a single G4 1.25 so while IBM can give Apple faster processors, Apple is stuck having to work with hotter chips. A tough challenge for sure. IBM needs to get their act together. Maybe, Apple should get Intel to fab the G5

they are cooler but remaining air cooled would require loud fans and with the future being hotter the liwuid cooler was inserted now it is also 90nm meaning the heat ids coming out f a smaller space than older chips (130nm)
post #74 of 78
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
go away

Buddy, Crackmac has been pushing this stuff on these boards for years. And you know what, it is all crap. All of it. Every year, around this time, he comes out and spouts this stuff. Crazy. It used to be funny. Now it is just plain stupid.
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post #75 of 78
Quote:
Originally posted by DVD_Junkie
Actually, the article says:
"It's actually quite simple," said Boger. "When we made that prediction, we just didn't realize the challenges moving to 90 nanometer would present. It turned out to be a much bigger challenge than anyone expected."


Nothing here implies the current crop of duals are using 90nm chips but rather to the contrary. Had they been 90nm chips, the heat issue wouldn't have required the additional liquid cooling IMO. Could anyone confirm if any of these chips are using 90nm fabrication?

Tnx.

Read the white paper available at http://www.apple.com/powermac
post #76 of 78
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
Read the white paper available at http://www.apple.com/powermac

I did go and read the white paper, and I can't find anywhere where it says that anything but the 2.5 Ghz machine is at 90 nm. The white paper is very vague about this.

I was under the impression that the 2.0 and the 1.8 are still 130 nm except in the XServe, where the 2.0 is at 90 nm.
post #77 of 78
They don't mention another process besides the 90 nanometer in the paper, so perhaps they've decided to put the FX in all the Power Mac models (hence late ship date, at least for the 2.5).
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"Be entirely tolerant or not at all; follow the good path or the evil one. To stand at the crossroads requires more strength than you possess."

"Ordinarily he was insane, but he had lucid moments...
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post #78 of 78
Quote:
Originally posted by fred_lj
They don't mention another process besides the 90 nanometer in the paper, so perhaps they've decided to put the FX in all the Power Mac models (hence late ship date, at least for the 2.5).

Not according to the interview on MacCentral. If they are having yield problems with the 90nm chip, but the 130nm chip is now at or approaching IBM's targets, then it only makes sense to use the 130nm in the 1.8/2.0 towers (since that's what they were already using with no problems). The Xserve G5 requires the 90nm 2 GHz chip, and the 2.5 GHz tower requires the 90nm version -- both for clear heat/power reasons.

At this point the 130nm version is probably cheaper since their yields are now good, while the 90nm yields are still being improved. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple silently switched the 1.8/2.0 towers to 90nm when the yields of that version improved beyond the 130nm yields (measured in terms of chips/wafer).
Providing grist for the rumour mill since 2001.
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Providing grist for the rumour mill since 2001.
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