motorola has a chance

Now here, apostrophes would be appropriate, eh Ensign?

Seriously, Apple is selling many, many more G4s (iBooks, eMacs, iMacs, PowerBooks, and until recently G4 PowerMacs) than G5s so it's not out the realm that they are working with FreeScale on something new.

Their latest roadmap.

But does a Moto road map actually mean that much...?

Motorola had their problems. From the press I have read on Freescale, it sure seems like it is set up and managed much better.

I think the people here, especially with the last Power Mac updates after a whole year of waiting with nothing in the meantime, need to realize that the G5, at least in its current state, is not a processor for thin notebooks (Powerbooks) or even compact desktop computers (iMac). Such devices are served much better by a Motorola chip. This is why I believe that in its next update, the iMac will have a G4. And this is why I hope Freescale finally delivers their e600 chips by the end of this year, just to be ready for the next Powerbook update the beginning of 2005.

I don't know anything about Motorola. I still expect to see 3GHZ machines at some point this year, maybe September/October.

As far as Apple saying they won't hit 3GHZ - I don't trust their comments. They were forced to say something because of Steve's guarantee last year at WWDC, and I hardly doubt that they're going to come out and say:
"We'll definitely be at 3GHZ in the Fall." It would depress new PowerMac sales and also get them back into the uncomfortable "guarantee" position once more. While there are no plans to get the 970FX up much past 2.5GHZ, the new derivative of the POWER5 will scale beyond that and add multi-threading. Those should be arriving in Apple's hands later in the summer. It looks like the yields will be in good shape.

As for FreeScale/Moto, I do think they'll deliver something this summer and we'll see it in the PowerBook in the Fall. Not sure if it'll reach 2GHZ in the laptops or not. Might be able to take any consumer end Macs past 2GHZ (like the eMac) if the PowerMacs push the G5 beyond 3GHZ - but that is ultimately Apple's decision, and depends on IBM's yields.

And the updates really are not that NEW. Just the high-end. Lowsy update if you ask me.

As for the G5 going into a laptop, definately no. I am convinced of that now. They have to strap a friggin water-cooled radiator on top the the damn thing to get it cool enough? I think the cooling is for the FSB/memory controllers too, which is why this architecture is made for the cheese-grater PowerMac and not the thinline PowerBook. iMac, who knows?

Hopefully the e600 and maybe sooner the update to the 7xxx line will prove fertile.

Unbelievable.

Unless Moto is able to get them up near 2GHZ, I don't think we'll see a G4 in an iMac. However, I'd love to see the e600 in a consumer machine if FreeScale can deliver it (and I think they will). However, I think Apple will divide things up like this:

Pro-line:

Desktop G5
Laptop G4 (new ones from FreeScale)

High-End consumer line:

iMac replacement with a G5

Lower-end consumer line:

eMac and/or another machine with the FreeScale G4

Consumer laptop:

iBook G4 (maybe the PowerBook will get dual-core G4s).


I really think we're now setup for big updates to all lines in September/October to beat the rush of the Christmas season. This may mean new FreeScale 90nm processors. We should see the 975 (as it's been called) with multi-threading. I'd like to see a non-AIO consumer Mac, especially since the PowerMac G4 has now been discontinued. I expect to see something since the PowerMac G5 lineup is all dual.

Is this sarcasm at Apple's expense?

Who wants 3 GHz, i want dual-core dual-processor (2.5 GHz is fine) with space for FOUR HD'ssss

That is the problem. The iMac needs an update quickly (this September is a whole year from the last speed bump--the 20" iMac had the same speed as the 17" model), and I don't think Freescale will be ready to deliver the e600 or any other enhanced G4 before the end of the year. This is why I believe we will see soon (relatively, maybe September) the new iMacs with the 1.5 GHz G4 that Powerbooks have now. Watching the e600 going into production this summer, would really be a surprise for me.

If the iMac doesn't get upgraded until September, and then only with a G4, I have to start questioning Apple's logic. It makes no sense to wait that long.

It is quite simple: assuming that the current G5 cannot be used in a compact computer like an iMac (which I believe is correct, but I may be wrong on that), what else Apple is left with? A G4 that tops at 1.5 GHz. If they used this one this spring (along with the Powerbook update), then what they will use if Freescale is unable to deliver in time improved G4s?

I see in Apple's logic a desperate effort to gain time, updating as slowly as they can, since the processor landscape around them is not very rose. I only hope Freescale surprises us this summer.

The current G5 comes in duals and is nearly silent most of the time (more so than my PowerBook, which has just roared into life). It shouldn't be impossible to shoe-horn it into an all-in-one (after all, they changed the iMac case the last time they changed the CPU )

Isn't it funny how we assumed that the 970fx would be a shoe-in for the Powerbooks?



Heh, how times change.

Well, we were going on power consumption numbers that were being reported back at Christmas time. Those numbers made most people believe it was possible when comparing it to the numbers for the G4.

I know. I guess we never expected the entire power consumption and heat of the whole system to be as high as they are.

This is nothing short of delusional. When Apple says they'll hit 3GHz they are to be believed, but when they say they won't, they aren't?

Not only does Motorola have a chance, they are almost a shoe-in. Well, either them or IBM lurking in the wings.

Think about it:

G5 has a machine code of PowerMac7,x with a key definition of PowerMac_7_2_PlatformPlugin in /System/Library/Extensions/AppleMacRISC4PE.kext/Contents/Info.plist

What is PowerMac8,1 machine code with a key definition of SMU_Neo2_PlatformPlugin. That is completely new. No, this ain't no G5.

Defining SMU_Neo2 will give you the answer.

This is the Power5 based PPC that will debut in the new XStation and Xclient being announced at WWDC.

I never said that. Had IBM's timeline been pulled off without a hitch, we would have seen 3GHZ.

My point is that what good would it do if Apple said they were going to hit 3GHZ? It would have hurt their sales. The only reason they had to say anything about it is the delay in PowerMac updates and the 3GHZ guarantee.

Apple isn't really the company that controls it, anyways. The POWER5 derivative is thus far moving forward without any serious problems and will be available sooner rather than later. It will scale beyond 3GHZ.

You know of such a critter? Up until now, it has all been hearsay and assumptions. We all know where that leads us (reference: today's PowerMac bump).

Im praying for something like this to come out within the next 6 months or so:

-Powerbook G5-Mobile (maybe using e600 or e700 w/ 400mhz fsb)
-new Gun Metal case, still roughly 1 inch thick
-All widescreen
-128mb video
-gigabit internet and airport extreme
-superdrives

-1.7ghz 13 inch
-1.8ghz 15 inch
-2.0ghz 15 inch
-2.0ghz 17 inch
\t
of course probably wont fly, maybe IBM has been building something centrino like under wraps.

This is my opinion that apple will never go back to moto once the G4 dies out. Apple will still lurk to see what moto is doing but, I don't think moto can gain Jobs trust again. I think IBM is here to stay for a while. Even with a no 3 Ghz G5, IBM still gave us a faster machine performance then moto would give us in a year. IBM gave us a faster machine then AMD and Intel gave in a year. IBM is so far giving us a godd and respectful processor upgrade. I would say moto's chance in getting back into gear after the G4 is like 24% in my mind.

I know it exists and, unlike the 970, was developed concurrently with the POWER5. Like the POWER5 to the POWER4+, the new derivative is faster than the 970, clock for clock (a 2.5GHZ POWER5 based CPU is faster than a 2.5GHZ 970FX). There are architecture improvements (I don't know the specifics), improved cache access (okay, I know a specific), and an increase in L2 cache (though, to be honest, my info on this is hazy - it may still only be 512K, but some of the stuff I've gotten implies an increase. They are multi-threaded processors. Future revisions will be multi-threaded and dual core.

As to a few other posts, I doubt Jobs will abandon Motorola. As I've said elsewhere, Apple has cancelled an IBM chip project - and IBM seems to think Motorola's split off of FreeScale will bring Motorola back to the forefront of chip manufacture, so they see them as very, very serious competition. However, Apple will use chips from both manufacturers, I'm pretty sure of this.

IBM has no viable portable processor for Apple reaching production until next year - a SoC CPU that is being devloped with Apple, and it could be cancelled if the SoC e600 is delivered in the somewhat near future (this is speculation on my part, and someone else's).

yes yes, go on

To me the fact that the new PMs are all duals provides an indication that there will be a next generation G5 iMac fairly soon - and it will be in the traditional AIO form. Experience over the past year showed Apple that a single processor PM is not a hot seller, so why bother.

The iMac range is perfect for the single G5. Reengineered to start around 2 gigs and go up from there - just as the PM case was reengineered last year to go above 2 gigs. If you are going to reengineer the iMac for the G5 you are probably going to get the benefit of Apple's styling genius with something that is as great a leap over the current iMac as the current version is over the original.

A third generation iMac is the logical choice for Apple. Since the lower and mid ranges of the PM is available today (if you were quick to order) it can be assumed that IBM is delivering large quantities of these chips. Enough for a 1.6 gig in the 15" (if it survives), a 1.8 in the stock 17/18" version and a 2.0 in the stock 20" version. BTO would allow an upgrade to 2 gigs in the 17/18" range and, maybe 2,2 on the 20".

AIO is going to be a pain for those that want a headless iMac. AIO has been very successful for Apple and I doubt that they are going to go by the pleas on the rumor boards. AIO is perfect for a lot of people (I'm one waiting for the next generation) and it won't be dropped - "i" will continue to mean AIO. The important thing for the AIO is that it has strong tech features - similar to the PM in areas like FSB.

Headless iMac? Doubt it, but I do see the potential for a PM mini - as soon as WWDC. Pull out one of the G5s, rearrange things so the box will be noticeably smaller (three cooling zones) and keep it one notch from the top of the line. When combined with a 20" display it will be about $200 more than the similar rigged iMac, but will provide the expansion room for those that want it. Most of the parts from the PM could be moved directly over without a significant cost burden.

If the iMac is released before WWDC then a PM mini could be the "one more thing" for Steve's keynote speech - along with an iPod with a color screen (40 gigs until September).

Wild thoughts, but that is what rumor boards are for.

Are there model names/numbers to these things?

Macphisto speaketh the truth

Why would Job's jetison a supplier that provides him with a hedge against IBM cocking up? Don't forget that during the lost years of the MPC7400, the best IBM could do was incrementally, albeit slowly, improve upon the 750. I note that IBM had other fish to fry elsewhere during this time, but there is a precedent. People rush to praise IBM when they too have a spotty record when it comes to promising the 'bees knees' of processor technology. You only need to look at yesterday to work that one out.



Just imagine the Freescale e600 (two 1.6 Ghz cores, 500Mhz FSB, PCI-e) and the IBM PPC 800 (two 750GX cores, 500Mhz FSB, PCI-e) fighting over the eMac, iBook, iMac and Powerbook?

Competition! Bloody Fantastic

Moto/Freescale have gone from 1.42 to 1.5 in a year, more or less. IBM has gone from 2.0 to 2.5 in a year, more or less. From where I sit, I see the gap widening. Besides, wouldn't an iMac use a lower-clocked G5, anyway? It still seems 1.6 and 1.8 at 90nm is within the realm of plausibility for a revamped iMac.

CV

Actually, the 1.42 G4 was an overclocked CPU. Also, FreeScale's first rollout was the 7447A, which is now in the PowerBooks. They delivered it ahead of schedule - and it was a leftover from Motorola management. The first big delivery from FreeScale is rumored to be due this summer. I feel that we'll see dual core chips from them around the end of the year. The new management and the new fab give me great hope. If you look into the Crolles 2 fab, you'll see that it's one of the world's most advanced. Couple that with FreeScale's teaming up with Phillips and STM. The current roadmap looks really good and I do think they have the management and the fab to reach it.

I'll believe it when I see it...run Doom 3 really fast.

Until then, Freescale/Moto is still the piece of shit it has been for 4 years.

But really...how can we put any more faith in a company that almost destroyed Apple.

If it wasn't for Steve Jobs' strategies of focusing on things other than processor speed (nice enclosures, digital hub, etc.), Apple would be long dead.

Fuck Motorola and fuck Freescale. Even if Freescale came out with a 5GHz processor tomorrow, I wouldn't touch it with an infinitely long pole.

I seriously doubt the 1.42 was overclocked. Motorola/Freescale has no history with dual core cpu's that I know of, so if I were betting on whether IBM or Motorola/Freescale would introduce a dual core chip first, place my bet on IBM.

As someone mentioned earlier, IBM already announced the 970fx would reach 2.5 GHz. and infered from that, that Jobs goal of reaching 3.0 GHz probably involved a different model. I tend to agree with this logic.

However, the 2.5 GHz 970fx(0.09 µm) typical watts is 50 and the old(0.13 µm) 1.8 GHz 970 typical watts is 51, so does that mean the liquid cooling is mainly for noise reduction/rapid heat flucuations or will the 970fx actually scale to 3.0 GHz.???

Also, throw in the fact that IBM appears to not be using SSDOI yet, all this is pretty much guess work and speculation.\

Tell us how you really feel!

Seriously though, where do you think eMac, iMac, iBook and PowerBook CPUs come from. Still Motorola/Freescale. They will be here for the forseeable future. If they give you something good, are you going to turn it away? I would hope not! That's the whole beauty of multiple suppliers. That is why they went to IBM. What if IBM becomes stagnant for a couple years, but then gives Apple a new POWER(whatever) that runs at 5GHz. Would you look the other way?

I believe the liquid cooling is for noise reduction. The number of fans in the PowerMac was designed for the same purpose: to make it a fast, quiet workstation. In my experience, it runs very quiet most all of the time. The liquid cooling should just improve that.

Actually, there was a chance that the 970FX would scale to 3GHZ by January. that didn't happen. The yields are too low right now for the 970FZ at 3GHZ, and it would be much hotter (I think around 90W+, but I could be wrong).

The order of events - from what I've been told - is this:

Jobs made the "promise" last year at WWDC. He knew at that time that IBM would be fabbing at 90nm before the end of the year. He knew that IBM was optimistic that the 970FX would have good yields at 3GHZ. My guess is that Steve was hoping for 3GHZ in January at MWSF to really impress the Mac World (double intendre). The problem ended up being that IBM could not even provide ANY 90nm chips, even for the 2GHZ xServe (and it was supposedly scaled back because IBM thought they could ship 2GHZ 970FX in quantity). Even IBM didn't expect these kind of delays. They had thought they'd at least have 2.5GHZ available in mass by February - but they are only now finally shipping these things out.

So, even with the delay, Jobs new that IBM would get the POWER5 derivative out during the summer. Problem is that the delay on the 970FX has pushed the manufacture of the new chip back later in the summer, BUT preliminary tests have indicated that it shouldn't hit any major snags.

So, essentially, IBM and Apple had accounted for delays, but didn't expect the massive delays they ended up getting. My guess is that Apple couldn't wait to update until Sept./Oct. due to slumping sales and they HAD TO put out PowerMac updates in order to get them up a bit. So these machines will ship in July/August. I still think we'll see new chips based on the PPC975 (as most call it here) by October - the current revisions being only a stopgap.

As for the dual-core chip, don't bet on IBM. They do have multi-threaded chips coming up, but FreeScale could be producing a dual-core e600 before the year is out. In many ways, their new fab in Crolles is superior to the Fishkill plant. Without Moto's incompetent management, I fully expect FreeScale to surprise. In fact, a September/October update of the PowerBooks and iBooks featuring new G4s with greater bus speeds, more L2 cache, architectural improvements, and dual-core chips in the PowerBooks woudl not surprise me. If things pan out, I think we could see Apple refresh all of their lineups through the month of October, getting ready for the Christmas season. I'd also love to see some nice iPod/Mac combo deals to try to lure people in with the iPod.

Mr. MacPhisto, those seem to be all plausible events and outcomes. Any clue as to SMU_Neo2 in the 10.3.4 update? To me that just seems to scream, "and now, for something completely different."