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Disgusted by Apple ripping off Konfabulator! - Page 2  

post #41 of 91
who says apple ripped off konfabulator?

does anybody here know when apple started developing dashboard?

no.

then shut up.

konfab was first to market, but that doesn't mean that apple wasn't already developing it. same with the whole watson deal.
post #42 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by pesi
konfab was first to market, but that doesn't mean that apple wasn't already developing it. same with the whole watson deal.

Demonstrate it, then we'll see. Til then you might as well shut the fsck up yourself.

ZoSo
post #43 of 91
I don't think shareware developers should ever be surprised when they implement existing ideas in Mac OS X in a Mac OS style and then Apple replicates the functionality. You could look at it byt saying that really, Apple should have already implemented this technology, and Konfabulator etc saw a gap in the market, from which they've been profitting from for some time. The same could be said for several other apps - how long is it going to take for Apple to implement something like Quicksilver in Mac OS X.

It must be a real bummer to develop a great application and for it then to be redundant, but they were exploiting a lack of functionality in the operating system - an easy way to code up small applications and have easy access to them.

From what I've seen, dashboard looks far superior to every version of konfabulator I've used - I've not seen the build with Konspose (or whatever it's called). In my expereience, Konfab made your desktop look pretty, but wasn't of great use because unless you had the widgets floating on top of the others, it was just as easy to access normal applications as the widgets, which were normally covered by applications. The implementation of Konspose seems like a knock off of dashboard, which Apple obviously have been developing for months. No one says anything against the authors of konsfabulator for doing that.

And finally - think how many more people will benefit from this functionality than would have done otherwise. What percentage of Mac users use or even know about konfabulator? Isn't it better to improve the experience for everyone by including this functionality into the OS, rather than expect people to download a shareware application (and pay for it) to receive less functionality.

It would be nice if Apple credited shareware developers for stuff like this, but I don't think the konfab developers can really be too upset. Time to improve their product, or develop a new idea.
post #44 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by mortigi tempo

And finally - think how many more people will benefit from this functionality than would have done otherwise. What percentage of Mac users use or even know about konfabulator? Isn't it better to improve the experience for everyone by including this functionality into the OS, rather than expect people to download a shareware application (and pay for it) to receive less functionality.

kind of sounds like bill gates talking of internet exploer and netscape here
post #45 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by mortigi tempo
Isn't it better to improve the experience for everyone by including this functionality into the OS, rather than expect people to download a shareware application (and pay for it) to receive less functionality.

Again, this is pretty much a billg argument. And it basically kills the whole shareware segment of development for your OS. There are no incentives. Sure you wanna do that? Does it bring more benefits or more damage?

ZoSo
post #46 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
kind of sounds like bill gates talking of internet exploer and netscape here

You beat me to it!

ZoSo
post #47 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
kind of sounds like bill gates talking of internet exploer and netscape here

maybe, but I don't see apple doing this to steal konfabulator's market share, simply to increase functionality in the OS.

Do you think apple shouldn't develop partrs of the OS that third party developers provide. There should be room for both apple's solutions an other peoples. Apple developed Safari - it had tabs - did you hear Camino/Mozilla/Opera developers moaning about how apple had stolen their ideas and implemented them in the OS?

no, they made their products better. Apple have reimplemented their existing desktop accessories in a better way. sure, it's very similar to konfabulator, but that wasn't even an original idea anyway
post #48 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by ZoSo
Point 4: bitch with a vengeance when an OS company wants you to develop for their platform and when your work is flourishing and ripe they rip-off what you've done.

ZoSo

Point 5: Don't base your income on making OS extensions that fills a gap in an OS - gaps are usually filled eventually.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
post #49 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by ZoSo
Again, this is pretty much a billg argument. And it basically kills the whole shareware segment of development for your OS. There are no incentives. Sure you wanna do that? Does it bring more benefits or more damage?

That is a good point. In the open source community they often seem to look down on Shareware as inefficient and detrimental to the platform since they feel that if the code was free and open, development would be faster and bugs would be fixed quicker. In addition code could be shared freely and if the licence was appropriate, Apple could either take and enhance it (as they did with much of *BSD) or they could contribute to the open source effort (as they have with gcc). There is no monitary incentive as with shareware of course but that can be both a good thing and a bad thing. Certainly if Konfabulator was open source things would have been different.

Not drawing any conclusions since there's too many factors involved but it is something to think about.
post #50 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
Point 5: Don't base your income on making OS extensions that fills a gap in an OS - gaps are usually filled eventually.

This is sterile JLL: by definition an application is a piece of software not included with the Operating System. Point 6 would be "stop developing".

ZoSo
post #51 of 91
Dog eat dog.

It's sad to see Watson being sold to Sun because Watson is till better than Sherlock to this day. I can't say the same for Konfabulator because I have no desire to use it (or Dashboard).

Sure Dan Wood and Arlo Rose might be ticked, but in the end the reason why Apple didn't approach them was because of the following things.

1a) They didn't think to file patents on the technology.
1b) They knew they wouldn't be awarded patents on the technology.

2) Their apps are just plain easy to copy. They're both just glorified web apps...

If Apple wanted either and they weren't easily copiable, then they would have cut a deal. After all, Apple has been buying up plenty of software companies in the past few years.
I can change my sig again!
I can change my sig again!
post #52 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by mortigi tempo
maybe,

Definitely.

Quote:
but I don't see apple doing this to steal konfabulator's market share, simply to increase functionality in the OS.

Do you think apple shouldn't develop partrs of the OS that third party developers provide. There should be room for both apple's solutions an other peoples. Apple developed Safari - it had tabs - did you hear Camino/Mozilla/Opera developers moaning about how apple had stolen their ideas and implemented them in the OS?

no, they made their products better. Apple have reimplemented their existing desktop accessories in a better way. sure, it's very similar to konfabulator, but that wasn't even an original idea anyway

Whatever the reason you might want to put on it, the real one is that they had enough power to unfairly crush the competitor and get away with it. Period.

Camino and Mozilla belong to an Open Source Community--which is something terribly different from an independent shareware developer. IIRC they had tabs first. Safari itself is mostly derived from open source, being based on KHTML. Your argument makes no sense at all.

ZoSo
post #53 of 91
From a business perspective, I'm not sure why Apple didn't buy Konfab. I don't think it would have been very expensive and would have avoided all this bad press.

At the very least, DB was 'inspired' by Konfab. I never tried the program, but I was aware that it used JavaScript for the widgets. When I heard that Apple had used this same platform for creating their widgets, I was pretty sure I knew where Apple got the idea.

On a side note, will Konfab widget work w/DB? I wonder if Apple will be able to harness the level of community involvement that Konfab has been able to produce?
post #54 of 91
I think Adobe should be worried. With Core Image how hard would it be for Apple to make a Photoshop killer ? Half of it will be in Tiger and I think Steve gave them the warning on stage. And they have just had a demo of how ruthless Apple can be. Steve wants to be way ahead of longhorn , that includes the apps that run on it. As for ripping off Konfab....well these guys have made a living exploiting gaps in Apples os for years now, and it has come to an end , so find another gap and PATENT.
It's a matter of taste
It's a matter of taste
post #55 of 91
Thread Starter 
Noone has implied that Konfabulator was some breakthrough piece of software but it was an innovative implementation. I love the fact that Apple is trying to improve the OS and give it more functionality, and they will probably do a better job with this than Arlo did. The problem I have is that this software was cool, people(geeks) were pretty crazy about it when it first came out. When a developer comes out with something like this they should be praised, not copied, crushed and discarded. Which we all know is going to happen. What better message could a company send to it's developers than admiring some innovation, offering to purchase it or working with the developer to offer a new implementation? Instead they just took it with no acknowledgement.

If Microsoft added a new functionality(and they probably will) to Longhorn that behaved almost identically to Exposé, everyone on this board would crucify them. And rightfully so. What Apple did in this case was wrong not legally wrong, but morally and ethically bankrupt.
I too, have the ability to kill a yak at 200 yards... with mind bullets!
I too, have the ability to kill a yak at 200 yards... with mind bullets!
post #56 of 91
Seeing Apple's behavior here, it is a great thing they are locked solidly into the 5% market share. If they had like 95%, they'd behave as shitty as MS.
post #57 of 91
I think the widgets into Expose it great.

It's fair game.

You can't copyright an idea, only its implementation. As M$ proved when they shafted Apple. And Apple's implementation via Expose seems fresh enough to me. SDK. So Konfab' can prob' keep knocking out widgets? ie like 3rd parties do filters to Adobe's PS?

Lemon Bon Bon
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We do it because Steve Jobs is the supreme defender of the Macintosh faith, someone who led Apple back from the brink of extinction just four years ago. And we do it because his annual keynote is...
post #58 of 91


Nuff freakin' said.
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post #59 of 91
Apple used their own artwork. It's implemented in Expose. And because it's right in the OS via the SDK people can share in the party.

Expect Konfab' to really bitch when M$ copies them in 2007?

Lemon Bon Bon
We do it because Steve Jobs is the supreme defender of the Macintosh faith, someone who led Apple back from the brink of extinction just four years ago. And we do it because his annual keynote is...
We do it because Steve Jobs is the supreme defender of the Macintosh faith, someone who led Apple back from the brink of extinction just four years ago. And we do it because his annual keynote is...
post #60 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by chilleymac
If Microsoft added a new functionality(and they probably will) to Longhorn that behaved almost identically to Exposé, everyone on this board would crucify them. And rightfully so. What Apple did in this case was wrong not legally wrong, but morally and ethically bankrupt.

I fully expect this to happen, and I won't be bothered in the slightest. That's just the way it goes.

You can't expect apple to just not improve it's OS and tell people "just go buy these 12 third party add ons to gain these various functionalities"

As many people have pointed out, it is like desktop accessories back in the old days, and, I actually think much more similar to the control strip from OS 7-9. There were hundreds of custom control strip mods.
A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts
A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts
post #61 of 91
1. No one will be forcing you to use dashboard over konfab, so you can stay with whatever program you want.

2. Konfab had every chance to copyright their stuff and/or sue apple. it's their own damn fault for sitting around.

personally, i think Konfab sucks and I stopped using it. I'm looking forward to Dashboard.
post #62 of 91
Look folks, this is not so complicated. Those who say this is just a little competition are deluding themselves. If I were to come out with a Konfab clone, that would be a little competition. If Apple were to do a clone in the form of an OS plus pack sold separately for $29.99, that would be heavy handed. What they did was a Borg style assimilation. It is obvious that Apple has no moral problem with the concept of bundling. It is a lot easier than competition. I guess Cupertino is saving a bundle on R & D these days.

Perhaps the best point I have seen so far is this. Why is Apple spending time and resources implementing mature, existing utilities. Why not spend their resources on functionality that does not already exist? This is the sort of thing that makes people question "Apple innovation". This is not innovation. It is just cut and paste. How much of what Apple has implemented falls in this category? They acquired Next, the foundation of OS X. They acquired Soundjam, the foundation of iTunes. They copied Watson down to the look and feel after acknowledging that Watson was innovative. Now Dashboard. They buy what they are legally forced to buy. They just take everything else. The shame of it is that the people actually responsible for many great features of the innovative OS/platform are forgotten and swept away. They have been assimilated and Apple gets the credit for innovation.

This will be my final rant on the subject as I believe it has all been said by now. People around hear know that I have been a long time hater of Apple, the company. And I am no fan of SJ. Yes, I like the products well enough and my iBook has served me well enough, but it is now showing its age (less than two years old).

All of this will be easier to swallow when people give up the childish notion that this is a battle between good and evil, and that Apple is the good guy. Not true. Apple occupies no moral high ground. They do not care about you anymore than any other company cares about you. They are not a kinder and gentler business. They will cut your throat and stab you in the back as soon as the next guy if they see an advantage to it. SJ is not fundamentally different from BG. APPLE IS NOT YOUR FRIEND! If they were as big and powerful as MS, they would be just as bad. In fact, they are just as big and powerful as MS in their own market segment and they do behave pretty much the same way. People need to quit trying to defend everything they do as if they were the good guys that need defending and just accept them for what they are. Love them or hate them, but do so on the merits of the products, not some preconceived notion that their the ones in the white hats.

Well that's it for me. I think I'll go find one of those iMac threads and rant about that for a while. What's up with that thing anyway?
Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
post #63 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by ZoSo
Agree 100%.

Hell, Microsoft got sued, and now we have here a full bunch of apologists willing to take it under their tails just cuz it's Steve's...

We're talking about developers here people, and this was a developer's conference. Arlo got screwed for being a developer! I would not, will not, develop for an Apple platform. Ever. Not after this.

< snip >

Thanks Steve, but after this you lost me (after 14 years).

ZoSo

Wow! I can't imagine someone dropping a platform because of this. Have fun developing for Windows. I hope someone else doesn't copy your work or ideas if you don't copyright your work.
Welcome to the world of free enterprise in business. Did you ever think that this might give the same developers a larger market share once Tiger becomes mainstream? I do, and I can't wait to get my hand on the SDK.
post #64 of 91
Just to clarify something: The guys who made Konfabulator did copyright their work. They took the legal precautions they needed to take, but Apple could probably argue that 1) what they did is different enough and 2) this approach wasn't originated by Konfabulator anyway.
post #65 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by MacTech
Wow! I can't imagine someone dropping a platform because of this.

It's called ideology. Or a matter of principles, if you will.

Quote:
Have fun developing for Windows. I hope someone else doesn't copy your work or ideas if you don't copyright your work.

Mono (.NET in MS talk), C# and Open Source is the way of the future. Then you sell--and make money on--expertise, services, vertical solutions, you name it. Code becomes a platform on top of which you can add and sell value, not a tool to slow innovation down or crush your competitors (think Windows, IE, the rest--and Dashboard).

If I'm the only one in here who holds true to his principles I don't care--I'm glad I do. I'm a thousand times better than those who bash MS for its anti-competitive behaviour and subsequently praise Apple for doing the same exact things.

Some people should remove a few kilograms of shit from their eyes.

ZoSo
post #66 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
It's fair game.

It's not.

If you really think so you're deluding yourself and being an apologist for Apple. And they do not deserve an apologist, but are due apologies.

ZoSo
post #67 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by chilleymac
Noone has implied that Konfabulator was some breakthrough piece of software but it was an innovative implementation. I love the fact that Apple is trying to improve the OS and give it more functionality, and they will probably do a better job with this than Arlo did. The problem I have is that this software was cool, people(geeks) were pretty crazy about it when it first came out. When a developer comes out with something like this they should be praised, not copied, crushed and discarded. Which we all know is going to happen. What better message could a company send to it's developers than admiring some innovation, offering to purchase it or working with the developer to offer a new implementation? Instead they just took it with no acknowledgement.

If Microsoft added a new functionality(and they probably will) to Longhorn that behaved almost identically to Exposé, everyone on this board would crucify them. And rightfully so. What Apple did in this case was wrong not legally wrong, but morally and ethically bankrupt.

Greatly expressed.

Cheers,

ZoSo
post #68 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by Mac Voyer
All of this will be easier to swallow when people give up the childish notion that this is a battle between good and evil, and that Apple is the good guy. Not true. Apple occupies no moral high ground. They do not care about you anymore than any other company cares about you. They are not a kinder and gentler business. They will cut your throat and stab you in the back as soon as the next guy if they see an advantage to it. SJ is not fundamentally different from BG. APPLE IS NOT YOUR FRIEND! If they were as big and powerful as MS, they would be just as bad. In fact, they are just as big and powerful as MS in their own market segment and they do behave pretty much the same way. People need to quit trying to defend everything they do as if they were the good guys that need defending and just accept them for what they are. Love them or hate them, but do so on the merits of the products, not some preconceived notion that their the ones in the white hats.

Most exactly!

I'm sick of the fact that SJ and Apple in general have been living on this notion for years. Maybe it didn't give them more market share, but it certainly was basically free advertisement.

Lots of people--as you can see here--still believe in this. Hell, a MOVIE was made depicting them as the good guys!

Un-dammit-believable...

ZoSo
post #69 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by ZoSo
It's called ideology. Or a matter of principles, if you will.



Mono (.NET in MS talk), C# and Open Source is the way of the future. Then you sell--and make money on--expertise, services, vertical solutions, you name it. Code becomes a platform on top of which you can add and sell value, not a tool to slow innovation down or crush your competitors (think Windows, IE, the rest--and Dashboard).

If I'm the only one in here who holds true to his principles I don't care--I'm glad I do. I'm a thousand times better than those who bash MS for its anti-competitive behaviour and subsequently praise Apple for doing the same exact things.

Some people should remove a few kilograms of shit from their eyes.

ZoSo

There is no shit in front of my eyes. If you are implying otherwise, you are free to express your opinions. I can see the picture quite clearly.
As a developer of software for 20 years, I have had people steal my ideas, even capitalize on my company's software products name in their meta tags, press releases, etc. to earn themselves more business. If I had a leg to stand on, I sued them, if not, I made my product better.
The only difference here is that it is Apple, and not some other small developer. How is DashBoard slowing innovation? Konfabulator is a great product, but hardly anything revolutionary. It is like Desk Accessories for OS X. I hope Arlo and company can take the free press they are getting and run with it and come out with an even better product.
post #70 of 91
Does anyone actually KNOW the official story? Does anyone maybe KNOW if Kinfab was bought or licensed by Apple or whatnot?

Why do we automatically jump to the idea they ripped it off without discussing with theKonfab developer?

I can imagine they DID, but lets get the facts straight first mm'kay?
I'm having deja-vu and amnesia at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before.
I'm having deja-vu and amnesia at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before.
post #71 of 91
ok... i'll shut up now...

i guess this is pretty self explanatory.

At least it gives him almost a year to get people to pay for Konfab.

I'm having deja-vu and amnesia at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before.
I'm having deja-vu and amnesia at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before.
post #72 of 91
ZoSo, you can leave anytime you want. Bye.
post #73 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by ZO
Does anyone actually KNOW the official story? Does anyone maybe KNOW if Kinfab was bought or licensed by Apple or whatnot?

Why do we automatically jump to the idea they ripped it off without discussing with theKonfab developer?

I can imagine they DID, but lets get the facts straight first mm'kay?

The facts, just check The Register:

"While Redmond is stealing ideas from Cupertino, it seems Cupertino is stealing ideas from its third-party developers," said Rose in an open email. He described Konfabulator as the "template" for Mac OS X Tiger's Dashboard.

"We'd like [to] let the Mac OS X community know that if they'd like to get their hands on Dashboard now rather than wait 'till 'the first half of 2005' they can," he wrote.

ZoSo
post #74 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by MacTech
There is no shit in front of my eyes. If you are implying otherwise, you are free to express your opinions. I can see the picture quite clearly.

It wasn't my intention for you to take it personally. Sorry...

I was referring to a whole set of obtuse ideas, to a forgive-them-all-because-it's-Apple mentality that it seems is quite widespred and hypocritical.

ZoSo
post #75 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
ZoSo, you can leave anytime you want. Bye.

This story is too important for me, before I leave I want to at least try to shake all those carved-in-rock opinions. Then I'll move along, for your general relief...

ZoSo
post #76 of 91
Widgets aren't a new idea like everyone else said, it's just that Arlo implemented them the best. Stinks but like everyone has said he can't do much. They should just hire the Karelia guys and Arlo, I mean if they want the same things these guys have already made it! So who better to implement it. They do fantastic stuff. Still waiting for Kaleidoscope X...Nah just kiddin but Apple could hire those Unsanity folks too.
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post #77 of 91
People seem to have a short memory, relatively speaking. Are people here old enough to remember the Mac OS before the multi-Finder, before the Classic OS extensions, before the control strip, app switcher, etc.? Just keep in mind that Apple has co-opted the ideas of many third party utilities and put them into the OS since 1984. It's nothing new. Watson, Konfabulator and LaunchBar are just some more recent examples.

While ethically, I think it's a fair argument that they're stealing thunder from developers, I think Apple is doing something right in that these features are, at least with our most recent examples, extensible and open to developers as SDKs. So take some solace in that Apple isn't stealing the goodies and keeping the booty for itself.
post #78 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by ZoSo
The facts, just check The Register:

"While Redmond is stealing ideas from Cupertino, it seems Cupertino is stealing ideas from its third-party developers," said Rose in an open email. He described Konfabulator as the "template" for Mac OS X Tiger's Dashboard.

"We'd like [to] let the Mac OS X community know that if they'd like to get their hands on Dashboard now rather than wait 'till 'the first half of 2005' they can," he wrote.

ZoSo

Sorry, but I just had to jump in here...

You're taking *THE REGISTER* quoting *THE ALLEGED VICTIM* as 'the facts'?

Um.

I really hope you're never called for jury duty.
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
post #79 of 91
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
I really hope you're never called for jury duty.

Don't worry, it doesn't work like that over here

It was the only direct quote I've seen of Arlo's email--I wasn't quoting them about a future CPU

ZoSo
post #80 of 91
( I also wrote this in the other (news) thread)

Of course Apple got the idea from Konfabulator.And it was developed after Konfabulator. Internal Apple people will probably agree. The legal issue is irrelevant. It is probably legal. The moral issue is relevant. And the economic issues. Searchlight clearly copies Launchbar, and RSS Safari has possibly destroyed the market for RSS readers. And then there was Watson.

So the only part of the Apple developer community that is in fact relevant; not the old dinosuars but the new exciting shareware and downloadware, developed in Cocoa mainly, has had Apple fire this warning shot across their bow:

"We have given you tools to develop your applications quickly and efficiently, but please do not try and be innovative - we have hooks into the Operating System and vast resources and we can steal your ideas, integrate them into the OS, and get defended by the Mac "community" who will argue that we do it better, or you idea wasn't original anyway. We will humiliate you in Public as a developer's conference to boot."

I actually would trust Microsft more than this shower. Why write software for the Mac if Apple is going to rip it off in more than a year because it's lazy designers cannot think of original ideas?

These innovative developers have nothing to lose but their chains to the Mac, and nothing to gain but their dignity if they move to Windows development; a crowded field surely, but one where Microsoft is unlikely to waste it's time on an RSS reader - leaving that, wisely, to it's developers.

And good luck to Apple and Apple's users, in hoping to compete with Microsoft and all it's resources; and Microsoft's developers and all their resources.

Meanwhile the declining Apple cult will use Apple's operating system only, and Apple's applications only; a situation guaranted when Apple creates it's verions of Office and Photoshop. As it surely will.

In future Apple should hold it's WWDC in-house. For internal developer's only.
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