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New iMac's in Sept - **CONFIRMED** - Page 6

post #201 of 303
I think this would be cool for the new imac

AN all-in-1.5-2-3

there would be many options and choices.
Base: A 17" display on a hinge similar to new monitors. CPU and ports on back, as well as disc drive parallel to the screen. Power flip to move the screen facing the ceiling, exposing ports and drive. Power flip down to the original position that the computer remembers.
Add: Connectivity box can connect to the computer through proprietary cable or wifi (more on that feature in a sec) and have many ports, ipod dock, flash memory card reader and maybe in a partnership with Kodak an easy share dock, maybe even more things I cant think of. With wifi you could put it in Your front hall or bedroom or anywhere , in an apartment this feature would be dumb, but in a house you dont always head for your computer the first thing.

Next model: Connectivity box as well as a larger monitor (20", 23", ?) with the integrated CPU/drive unit.

Top end: Connectivity box plus the CPU/drive unit in another independent box (stackable ?) Limited reworking required with the same MB and drive just mounted in a box. This box would also have Component video out (the one with the wacky labels like R-Y) as well as several audio out options for a BYO-hdtv setup. So that the computer can be the hope media center, and maybe throw in some nifty Apple software, tivo...

All this would be really cool but like I said at the beginning this is just my uninformed idea.

REPEAT THIS IS NOT WHAT I THINK APPLE WILL DO
they will probably do something way cooler that will floor us all, and cost some stratospheric number to make us say alas.

If I was good at cgi id draw it for you all, but anyway I can dream cant I
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post #202 of 303
An accurate account. What amazes me about Apple is that they continue to release stupid "improvements" to technology that has industry standards. Its like they never learned their lessons way back in the day of the twiggy / tweaky or whatever they called that disk drive.

How does one make a reasonable argument, within a company like Apple, that something like a non-standard video connector is a feature that there customers would really appreciate. It would be a very interesting day to see how such things get promoted from a thought into an actual product introduction. Discovering how this is done and correcting the issue would go a long ways to fixing the product development cycle with respect to Apple PC hardware.

I don't know whether or not the present issue with the iMac is the result of the mindset at Apple or just the result of slippage with a vendor. It would be very good to see Apple having a change of heart with respect to some of the funky hardware it likes to deliver. Can anyone imagine an iMac3 with a standard video connector connected to a video card in a standard format that is actually easy to upgrade or replace?

Thanks
Dave


Quote:
Originally posted by Matsu
Apple also made a big deal about the death of the CRT... still here.

3Ghz PPC970... not here yet.

ADC, the future... not so much.

Apple has made lots of big deals about products, only to swing the other way -- various shipping times for everything from iMacs, iPod minis, and assorted Gfx cards, that either arrived late, or with price bumps, or spec drops (remember that?)

Whatever is said on stage is merely marketting designed to justify the product design of the moment and nothing more.

On vertical drives?

S.J. "
In the past we couldn't find a way to integrate the computer behind the display, not in any elegant way, especially the drives, but thanks to our engineering..."

Catch my drift?
post #203 of 303
I, for one, really hope the iMac stays AIO. My reasoning:

-The current 20" Cinema would effectively double the price of the iMac.

-Apple will not introduce smaller Cinema displays that would cannibalize sales of the larger models.

Of course, I would like a pizza box in addition to the iMac, but not as a replacement.

The question is really whether its possible for Apple to build a PowerMac with one processor, half the RAM slots, no PCI slots, slightly lesser graphics and a built-in display for half the price. I don't know if they can do it. It seems like the price of the display would outweigh the cost savings of cutting a few slots and a processor from the MOBO.
post #204 of 303
Quote:
Originally posted by wizard69
How does one make a reasonable argument, within a company like Apple, that something like a non-standard video connector is a feature that there customers would really appreciate. It would be a very interesting day to see how such things get promoted from a thought into an actual product introduction. Discovering how this is done and correcting the issue would go a long ways to fixing the product development cycle with respect to Apple PC hardware.

I don't know whether or not the present issue with the iMac is the result of the mindset at Apple or just the result of slippage with a vendor. It would be very good to see Apple having a change of heart with respect to some of the funky hardware it likes to deliver. Can anyone imagine an iMac3 with a standard video connector connected to a video card in a standard format that is actually easy to upgrade or replace?

There are a lot of examples where Apple tried to create new standards but had to drop the techno because they were they only ones to use it, sure : ADB, ADC, NuBus, etc...
All those proprietary things were evolutions of existing technologies, not new technologies at all. When you have 3% marketshare, it's worthless trying to impose new "standards", especially when the differences with the existing standard are small.
And this is plain foolishness to build a low-end computer with proprietary gadgets indeed!

Anyway, implementing BOTH standards and all-new technologies on the higher-end computers is pretty nice. A nice example being Apple's Firewire technology which has been implemented on Powermacs without dropping the USB standard.
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post #205 of 303
The new iMac will be iRobot. Don't the Nestor Class 5 robots in the upcoming movie look like iMacs personofied?

Sorry for wasting your time.
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post #206 of 303
Funny I thought all PowerMac video cards came with DVI, and ADC before. Mine did.
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post #207 of 303
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
Funny I thought all PowerMac video cards came with DVI, and ADC before. Mine did.

Yes but still, modifying a video card to add support for a non standard video card costs a little.
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post #208 of 303
Quote:
Originally posted by wizard69
What amazes me about Apple is that they continue to release stupid "improvements" to technology that has industry standards. Its like they never learned their lessons way back in the day of the twiggy / tweaky or whatever they called that disk drive.

No. The problem is Apple wanted to have its name on it. Dell, HP, Sony, they all won't adopt a technology, even if it's superior, that carries an apple in its name. FireWire did well - no Apple in the name included.
post #209 of 303
i hope it has a g5
post #210 of 303
It is one thing to introduce new technology such as firewire that provides new functionality. If such functionality is superior to what is offered in any other form then it will sell itself. This has been the case with Firewire, it probally doesn't hurt that the licensing arraingement was rather light.

Even ADB could have been considered to be in th category of technology that worked well until something better came along. That better technology was USB and Apple dived into it full hog. USB was the right idea at the right time.

Unfortunately many of Apple forays into non standard technology have not been so well managed. A new technology has to have a compelling advantage over industry standards to even be worthwhile to look at. What is bothersome is the engineering effort required to even implement these technologies is significant. It is effort that Apple could have used in a much more agressive fashion with improvements to the Mac that are outside of industry standards.

The problem outside of Apple is that the business community does not want custom hardware and custom connectors for mundane hardware. Even in the consumer space there is a concern about upgrade and repair costs.

Dave


Quote:
Originally posted by The One to Rescue
There are a lot of examples where Apple tried to create new standards but had to drop the techno because they were they only ones to use it, sure : ADB, ADC, NuBus, etc...
All those proprietary things were evolutions of existing technologies, not new technologies at all. When you have 3% marketshare, it's worthless trying to impose new "standards", especially when the differences with the existing standard are small.
And this is plain foolishness to build a low-end computer with proprietary gadgets indeed!

Anyway, implementing BOTH standards and all-new technologies on the higher-end computers is pretty nice. A nice example being Apple's Firewire technology which has been implemented on Powermacs without dropping the USB standard.
post #211 of 303
I think some are forgetting the audience here for the iMac. It is first-time buyers, as well as people who want ease of setup and modular (education) solutions. That means simple. That means less options. Basically, take it out of the box, and plug it in & it goes. Nothing to configure, nothing to attach, etc.

The original gumdrop was a blockbuster precisely because of that: power and simplicity: remember "there is no step 5"?

So, I think that the AIO thing is going to happen, with fewer options (e.g. not stackable external components with pci slots, etc.) Slots are for pros. iMacs are for the rest of us. And they will have FW2 and USB2 for external connectivity, when they need it (remember the gaggle of USB devices that we never dreamed possible that came out with the original?

My hunch is that they will probably not have video-out capability, but may have ability to stream other media to other devices in the next iteration, but that is only a hunch. Video out makes no sense when the monitor is right there in front of you. (Though it makes a lot of sense on a powerbook, for example).

So, I think it is possible: a limited graphics card, of course, good enough for most gamers, (but not a 256MB fan-cooled whopper that many seem to want). A decent and quiet disk drive, speakers not included, and a low-end G5 chip, shipping with way too little RAM and a front-side (and chip) bus that will have its speed governed by heat concerns and a 17-inch screen.

I think it is doable for 1299. Whether they can get that under 1000 as many seem to want, I doubt it. But hey, getting a G5 in your bedroom for 1299 isn't such a bad deal.

Hope springs eternal,

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post #212 of 303
Quote:
Originally posted by Mandricard
I think some are forgetting the audience here for the iMac. It is first-time buyers, as well as people who want ease of setup and modular (education) solutions. That means simple. That means less options. Basically, take it out of the box, and plug it in & it goes. Nothing to configure, nothing to attach, etc.

The original gumdrop was a blockbuster precisely because of that: power and simplicity: remember "there is no step 5"?

So, I think that the AIO thing is going to happen, with fewer options (e.g. not stackable external components with pci slots, etc.) Slots are for pros. iMacs are for the rest of us. And they will have FW2 and USB2 for external connectivity, when they need it (remember the gaggle of USB devices that we never dreamed possible that came out with the original?

My hunch is that they will probably not have video-out capability, but may have ability to stream other media to other devices in the next iteration, but that is only a hunch. Video out makes no sense when the monitor is right there in front of you. (Though it makes a lot of sense on a powerbook, for example).

So, I think it is possible: a limited graphics card, of course, good enough for most gamers, (but not a 256MB fan-cooled whopper that many seem to want). A decent and quiet disk drive, speakers not included, and a low-end G5 chip, shipping with way too little RAM and a front-side (and chip) bus that will have its speed governed by heat concerns and a 17-inch screen.

I think it is doable for 1299. Whether they can get that under 1000 as many seem to want, I doubt it. But hey, getting a G5 in your bedroom for 1299 isn't such a bad deal.

Hope springs eternal,

Mandricard
AppleOutsider


I agree wholeheartedly, I think you've hit the issue on the head. However, I do think there is room to EXPAND the idea of what a computer is/can do. I hope the new iMac will revolutionize in a way we can't quite dream of yet. After all, it's about the consumer. Apple asked what people wanted with the original iMac, and the answer was an easy path to the internet and computing without all the hassle/complications.

I think that answer rings true today, but I think it might also include: A hassle-free way to manage my digital lifestyle (Photos, Movies etc.) I think iLife will play a big role in the physical hardware design of the new iMac. My hope is that it will include a new HUB strategy (software/hardware) for sharing/interacting with my digital lifestyle.
post #213 of 303
A little brain fart for 'yall: isn't the new iPod supposed to come out around September too? Food for thought.
post #214 of 303
Here's my horrible Photoshop job of what I think the iMac3 will look like.

Please improve upon if you have *actual* photoshop skills.



One part 17" flat panel, one part 1U mini-xServe-like base.
post #215 of 303
What about wireless firewire as a reason it has not been announced yet?

Macaddict16
post #216 of 303
Quote:
Originally posted by Mandricard
Slots are for pros. iMacs are for the rest of us. And they will have FW2 and USB2 for external connectivity, when they need it (remember the gaggle of USB devices that we never dreamed possible that came out with the original?

If that were true then why are there so many video upgrade cards available for the PC? Surely pro's are not buying a new one every 6 months. In fact, the only video cards that I know of that have been replaced at work in the past 5 years are those that were no longer functioning. Most of the retail video card market is driven by the game industry, which markets to consumers NOT pros. Except for the video production and animation markets I would bet that most pros leave their OEM cards in the computer till they sell it.

Also note that a video card in a Mac tower really isn't that much more difficult to replace as the memory. Apple might get more resources put into video cards from ATI and Nvidea if they had a consumer computer that they could market their retail cards to.
post #217 of 303
Quote:
Originally posted by Macaddict16
What about wireless firewire as a reason it has not been announced yet?

Macaddict16

Doubt it, that technology will be adopted in the PowerMac first.
post #218 of 303
Quote:
Originally posted by foamy
Here's my horrible Photoshop job of what I think the iMac3 will look like.

Please improve upon if you have *actual* photoshop skills.



One part 17" flat panel, one part 1U mini-xServe-like base.


Thats almost exactly what I was thinking/hoping. The iMac is a stylish pizza box, or cube, with a slot in the back which the current range of flat panel monitors snap into. The buyer then selects which ever Apple monitor suits their needs, or if they already have a monitor, they can use their own. Perfect?
post #219 of 303
Quote:
Originally posted by BuonRotto
A little brain fart for 'yall: isn't the new iPod supposed to come out around September too? Food for thought.

Good point, it should have a built-in iPod dock, and the home-on-iPod feature.
post #220 of 303
Quote:
Originally posted by foamy


How would you cool that?
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post #221 of 303
I don't think there is anything wrong about this, I think it's legit and that
Apple just wants to "quietly" release a small tip to keep us faithful mac users on our toes.
post #222 of 303
Quote:
Originally posted by Mandricard
How would you cool that?

Speed Holes, of course



I wonder how much fannage you'd need for a single, sub 2.0GHz 970fx if the entire front and back were like the G5 Powermac? Perhaps PowerTune is one of the things holding up the new iMac?

If they can't get a single G5fx in a 2 inch high enclosure cool, then Apple has some serious problems on the horizon.
post #223 of 303
No, no. Here's what the new G5 iMac will look like (yeah, sure..)

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post #224 of 303
Quote:
Originally posted by Mandricard
How would you cool that?

How do they cool a 1u dual 2.0 xServe?
post #225 of 303
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
How do they cool a 1u dual 2.0 xServe?

Louder then you will ever want, and then some. With FireWire 800 and USB2 expansion an AIO setup should be fine. Now... external PCIe... that would be something as well.
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post #226 of 303
Quote:
Originally posted by MacsRGood4U
No, no. Here's what the new G5 iMac will look like (yeah, sure..)


If you can imagine that cone as a pyramid in brushed aluminum then you have it.
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post #227 of 303
That might work, but the bevel around the screen needs work. Apple won't come out with a new form iMac that has any part that looks like the former version. 55 days and counting.
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post #228 of 303
Quote:
Originally posted by Mandricard
I think some are forgetting the audience here for the iMac. It is first-time buyers, as well as people who want ease of setup and modular (education) solutions. That means simple. That means less options. Basically, take it out of the box, and plug it in & it goes. Nothing to configure, nothing to attach, etc.

The original gumdrop was a blockbuster precisely because of that: power and simplicity: remember "there is no step 5"?/B]



There was a time when a microwave with more than a timer dial and a start button intimidated people. Today, microwaves have more features than traditional ovens and consumers are perfectly OK with that because they are no longer microwave neophytes. Same with dish washers, vacuums, and other household appliances. I do not believe it wise to bank your entire consumer line on people who don't know how to connect to the Internet. Why even bother sticking a G5 into the thing if it is nothing more than a glorified internet appliance. If you are going to under-spec the rest of it, just leave a G4 in it, drop the price to $899 and be done with it. The iMac has to become a whole lot more than an expensive Internet appliance for the clueless wealthy.

Quote:
Originally posted by Mandricard
[BSo, I think that the AIO thing is going to happen, with fewer options (e.g. not stackable external components with pci slots, etc.) Slots are for pros. iMacs are for the rest of us. And they will have FW2 and USB2 for external connectivity, when they need it (remember the gaggle of USB devices that we never dreamed possible that came out with the original?

I know Apple will never provide upgrade options for the masses. But they should. Consumers like the idea of being able to upgrade their technology without the need to replace it altogether. It doesn't matter what they actually do. It is what they want that is important. Most drivers don't feel comfortable changing the tires on their car but they will not buy a car with non-upgradable tires. I assure you, they will find someone who will do the work for them. Same with their computer. I have heard it said that most don't upgrade their PMs. Should Apple make AIO PMs? Absurd!

Quote:
Originally posted by Mandricard
So, I think it is possible: a limited graphics card, of course, good enough for most gamers, (but not a 256MB fan-cooled whopper that many seem to want). A decent and quiet disk drive, speakers not included, and a low-end G5 chip, shipping with way too little RAM and a front-side (and chip) bus that will have its speed governed by heat concerns and a 17-inch screen.

I think it is doable for 1299. Whether they can get that under 1000 as many seem to want, I doubt it. But hey, getting a G5 in your bedroom for 1299 isn't such a bad deal.

Hope springs eternal,

Mandricard
AppleOutsider

By definition, a limited graphics card will never be good enough for most gamers. Why would you want to look on any part of this flagship, iconic product as limited? What you call decent and quiet disk drives, I call slower and smaller than anyone else's at the same price. Anything less than 160 GB running at 7200 RPM will not qualify as decent for this type of machine. Are not a half decent set of speakers included with every PC on the market? I can understand an option to reduce the price by cutting the speakers. But I don't think that is what you mean. Why are you wanting a low end processor? The iMac is not at a low end price point. It should have the fastest G5 available. PCs have the fastest hyper-threaded monsters in them at that price range. Why should an equivalently priced Mac be crippled? We Mac users have developed such an inferiority complex, that we just don't believe we deserve the best hardware for a reasonable price. We think it is privilege enough just to be allowed to use a Mac no matter what. For the specs you mentioned, $1299 is still way too much. As long as people are telling Apple that it is OK to under-spec their systems with too little power, graphics, HD, modern i/o, (think card slots), and ram, well their just going to keep right on doing it. If Apple produces the system you envision at the price you envision, then it will be just as big a success as its predecessor was for the first three months, and as big a failure as it was for the rest of the time it is on the shelves.
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post #229 of 303
Everybody seems to be expecting the impossible here. First off, Dell uses integrated graphics in their machines well into the iMac's price range. The GeForce 4 may not be the best card around for games, it sure as hell beats the pants off an integrated chip that shares system memory.

They ship CD-ROMS and 40GB drives in that range as well. And of course they use "crippled" processors in that price range. Everybody does that. In fact, most of Dell's cheap boxes don't even allow you to upgrade to the latest processors...they're stuck in the 2.4-2.8GHZ range.

Take a look at this side-by-side. Do you really think the Dell is a better value?
post #230 of 303
And a hush falls on the crowd.

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post #231 of 303
You can get better than that, for less money, from Dell.

Dell Dimension 4600

P4 3GHz, 800MHz FSB
512MB DDR400
80GB 7200rpm
DVD + CD-RW drives
GeForce 5200 FX with 128MB VRAM
17" CRT
post #232 of 303
If you add in the LCD, which the first guy has, and Windows Professional, which is really the equivalent of OS X your setup comes out more expensive. So for more money you get a better system. Yes one would hope so.

Try this

Not saying 3 GHz wouldn't be nicer but that's far closer to the 15" setup and the previous.
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post #233 of 303
OK, for $1,446, I now get the following:

P4 3GHz 800 FSB
MS Windows XP Pro
3-year Warranty
512MB DDR400 RAM
80GB 7200rpm HDD
DVD/CD-RW Combo Drive
MS Works Suite
15" TFT Flat Panel Display
GeForce 5200 FX GPU with 128MB VRAM
SoundBlaster Live! audio card
2-button scroll mouse
FireWire adapter

So for an extra $147, I get a much, much faster CPU & FSB, a much better GPU with 4X the graphics memory, twice the RAM, and the equivalent of AppleCare.

But you're right, it is more expensive........
post #234 of 303
The point is not that you can't configure a PC for less money with more power.

The point is that you don't have to configure a Mac to make it a worthy machine. Apple doesn't believe that suckering morons into buying integrated graphics is a good way to sell computers. Apple believes that there is a minimum level of quality that should be expected of every computer such as dedicated graphics, firewire on the logic board, and purposeful ergonomics.

It means that the Macintosh will never be the cheapest platform, or perhaps the fastest or the best for games, etc. But it will always be the most integrated, most elegant, and highest quality platform.

The Macintosh is not a commodity. It is sustainable. An educated consumer can trick-out a silly Honda Civic with all kinds of cheap, tacky third-party accessories that will make it superior in speed and handling to, say, an entry-level Porsche. I'll take the Porsche, thank you very much.

As far as I'm concerned, an eMac is worth more than any PC.
post #235 of 303
Quote:
Originally posted by Michael Wilkie
Apple doesn't believe that suckering morons into buying integrated graphics is a good way to sell computers.

Well, the Dell mentioned above doesn't have integrated graphics; in fact, it makes the iMac's GPU look piss-poor. Added to which, the iMac's GPU is non-ugradeable (unlike the Dell's).

Quote:
It means that the Macintosh will never be the cheapest platform, or perhaps the fastest or the best for games, etc. But it will always be the most integrated, most elegant, and highest quality platform.

'Elegance' is a subjective term; these days, Mac quality is debatable. Unfortunately, most people go for cheap+fast, whether Apple likes it or not.

Quote:
The Macintosh is not a commodity. It is sustainable.

What does that mean? Most PCs are far more upgradable than Apple's consumer desktops.

Quote:
As far as I'm concerned, an eMac is worth more than any PC.

Apple's problem is that 98% of their target market do not share your view.


Don't get me wrong; I'm a long-time Mac user; but I am concerned about Apple's future in the consumer mass-market.
post #236 of 303
The GeForce FX 5200 is not that much better than the GeForce4 MX. Both are very lean GPUs. I suppose the 128 MB of VRAM is nice.
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post #237 of 303
Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
The GeForce FX 5200 is not that much better than the GeForce4 MX. Both are very lean GPUs. I suppose the 128 MB of VRAM is nice.

Except that the 5200 is capable of running CoreImage (without resorting to software fallbacks), Motion, and everything that requires Shader Model 2.0 (DX9), while the 4MX doesn't even support SM 1.0. It's getting more and more important every day.
post #238 of 303
I think there's one very obvious fact and that's that the iMacs were/are sorely in need of an update. They really haven't been touched in a year, that's poor by any standards.
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post #239 of 303
Crap. Delete this post.
post #240 of 303
Quote:
Originally posted by Michael Wilkie
Everybody seems to be expecting the impossible here. First off, Dell uses integrated graphics in their machines well into the iMac's price range. The GeForce 4 may not be the best card around for games, it sure as hell beats the pants off an integrated chip that shares system memory.

They ship CD-ROMS and 40GB drives in that range as well. And of course they use "crippled" processors in that price range. Everybody does that. In fact, most of Dell's cheap boxes don't even allow you to upgrade to the latest processors...they're stuck in the 2.4-2.8GHZ range.

Take a look at this side-by-side. Do you really think the Dell is a better value?

Not sure where you got that picture, but clicking on home or home office, and then clicking on the most expensive system on the page, I get this:


so for less money you get a DVD/CDRW, 16X PCI express Video card, 512mb ram, and a 17" LCD display.

The thing is that, once you configure it to be how you want it, ie, with software, firewire etc, then the price really does jump up.

IT is also misleading, as all those things at the top tab are optional. you pay more for them. But that inital price got them in the door.

That's what apple needs to do. Get them in the door to at least look at what they are selling.
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