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post #41 of 60
Quote:
Originally posted by X X
We were not "crude and tasteless". We put more effort into being "accepted" in France than we did in any other country specifically because of the warnings we had received before going. Our so called "crude and tasteless" tact didn't generate any bad behaviour in any other country except France, then.

I think that you came here in your dreams ;-)

Where did you go in france to find such hostile people...?
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post #42 of 60
Back on topic, you've got to query this comment quoted by the thread starter:

"France remains the country in which anti-Americanism finds its most sophisticated intellectual expression in the West."

It is firstly a loaded statement. That 'remains' sets up a presumption which is by no means a given. When were the French ever the leaders in this field ? On whose authority ?

Secondly it is arguably blatantly false. There are very few 'intellectuals' in France nowadays and those that do exist are moderate to extreme right-wing in many ways. Revel would be a textbook example of this.

The fashion in France nowadays is for 'secularism' which although nominally can be taken to mean an antipathy towards religions and deist conceptions generally, does in practice on the ground, translate merely into extreme Islamophobia. Again a stereotypical right-wing paranoia that at times verges on the clinical.

In this they are merely aping the right as they exist anywhere and in America in particular. You could make a far better argument that the French are the most pro Americans in Europe (certainly they cannot beat Germany, Greece or Spain in anti-US sentiment) and that they have merely fallen out temporarily as declining and corrupt regimes so often do.
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #43 of 60
Quote:
Originally posted by pierr_alex
I think that you came here in your dreams ;-)

Where did you go in france to find such hostile people...?

Paris, Nice, some other place West of Geneva to sleep in a parking lot (because of my brother), and another place on the Mediterranean.

I'll tell you what...In the next couple of years, I'd like to go back to Europe to take my wife and I'll let you know how it ends up then. I'm sure it will be better based on what everyone has said. Perhaps it was just bad luck, but my response was more in the direction to Harald who said that it was a fabrication and we were being lied to.

Regards!
post #44 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
I am sorry to say this, Max Parrish but french people are more interested by the latest soccer match, or by their beloved reality TV show than by the US.

Bush is not very popular here, but is not popular in others european countries either (do not speak of the governements here).

Saying that french hate US is grossly overexagerated. Some leftist intellectuals think so, because US represant the capitalist countrie by excellence. The left is not the majority of france, and the intellectuals are a very small part of the population ...

If french, hate so much US, how do you explain that US attract so many french people ?


Segovius. I disagree with your statement about the extremely right winded mussolinian Sarkozy. For me it's a joke. I could not let you write this without noticing. Feel free to elaborate, but I fear that nobody here, will be interested by this discussion.

I did post why do the hate us as catchy bait for a more exciting discussion than Mutual Franco-American Perceptions in the 21st Century.

I doubt that, as a people, they hate us although a close friend of mine who travels Europe wont go to France because he thinks them (from experience) the rudeist people hes ever met.

However, obsessive anti-Americanism in regards to our culture, politics, and economics seems to be far more prevalent. Contrary to a few other posters, THIS IS NOT ABOUT BUSH. Both books were written and published long before the invasion of Iraq (the beginning of 2002) and address issues far deeper than the first 12 months of the Bush administration. In fact, Revel wrote a book on the same issue in 1969and marveled that not a lot has changed.

The French for some time have freaked over America as the sole hyperpower and Americanunilaterialism, as well as the ills of globalism (tied to the US). It was only a few days after 9-11 that French opinion leaders started murmuring that Americans shared responsibility for the deaths due to our governments policies. Publications gloat over rising unemployment in the US, blame the US for the falling price of beef, and for aids in Africa. From groups as diverse as ATTAC to La Pen (and publications like Politis) anti-Americanism seems pervasive.
post #45 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Back on topic, you've got to query this comment quoted by the thread starter:

"France remains the country in which anti-Americanism finds its most sophisticated intellectual expression in the West."

It is firstly a loaded statement. That 'remains' sets up a presumption which is by no means a given. When were the French ever the leaders in this field ? On whose authority ?

Secondly it is arguably blatantly false. There are very few 'intellectuals' in France nowadays and those that do exist are moderate to extreme right-wing in many ways. Revel would be a textbook example of this.

The fashion in France nowadays is for 'secularism' which although nominally can be taken to mean an antipathy towards religions and deist conceptions generally, does in practice on the ground, translate merely into extreme Islamophobia. Again a stereotypical right-wing paranoia that at times verges on the clinical.

In this they are merely aping the right as they exist anywhere and in America in particular. You could make a far better argument that the French are the most pro Americans in Europe (certainly they cannot beat Germany, Greece or Spain in anti-US sentiment) and that they have merely fallen out temporarily as declining and corrupt regimes so often do.

First, The reviewer was Walter Russel Mead of Foreign Affairs (A Journal published by the Council on Foreign Relations). As a leading journal in its field, I assume the reviewer has been vetted as qualified to review these books.

www.foreignaffairs.org/

Or do a search on "foreign affairs revel".

This "french anti-americanism among intellectuals" is a common perception, dating back to Sarte.

Second, as 113 of these intellectuals signed an anti-American screed, I find that (there are no french intellectuals) difficult to believe.

Third, your underlying assumption is that the extreme right is 'pro-American'. From what I understand La Pen and associated reactionaries are just as Anti-American as the left...
post #46 of 60
Quote:
Originally posted by X X
Perhaps it was just bad luck, but my response was more in the direction to Harald who said that it was a fabrication and we were being lied to.

Regards!

Yeah, you are.

They don't hate you, but people like Murdoch are trying to make you hate them.

I stand by it.

"Freedom fries" indeed.
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post #47 of 60
Quote:
Originally posted by MaxParrish
First, The reviewer was Walter Russel Mead of Foreign Affairs (A Journal published by the Council on Foreign Relations). As a leading journal in its field, I assume the reviewer has been vetted as qualified to review these books.

www.foreignaffairs.org/

Or do a search on "foreign affairs revel".

This "french anti-americanism among intellectuals" is a common perception, dating back to Sarte.

Second, as 113 of these intellectuals signed an anti-American screed, I find that (there are no french intellectuals) difficult to believe.

Third, your underlying assumption is that the extreme right is 'pro-American'. From what I understand La Pen and associated reactionaries are just as Anti-American as the left...

Le Pen is a right winged populist, he surf among the sadest feelings common in france, like racism, nationalism ...
Many people vote le Pen, only to say Fuck you to politicians, and not because any real convictions.
Anti americanism exist but is very limited : if you want to see real anti-americanism, I suggest you to look in some part of the middle east.

In reverse, there is an anti-french behavior in USA, but it will never prevent me to go there, because I am sure that there is plenty of nice people, who did not give a rat-ass weither I am french or Martian.

And Segovius is right, there is not many intellectuals in France, right or left. Many people claims to be intellectual, but they don't deserve this mention. Sartre was an intellectual but very difficult to read. He died some decades ago, so his influence is small.

As a simple french people having acess to different groups of people, I can say that :
- people where really worried for 9/11
- people don't like Bush policy
- anti-americanism is very limited, and is more common to the left, who dislike the US model of economy (can you expect that a socialist love this model ?)
- There was great emotion for the 60 anniversary of the D-Day, especially among the older generations.

For me, if this sentiment exist in France he do not prevail. You will still find people who call the germans Boch, althought Germany is the best friend/ally of France.
The fact that book exist show that there is differents way of thinking in France, and some are agaisnt anti-americanism. It's not because Michael Moore did Farheinheit that every US people hate Bush. Sure some US people hate Bush, but it's not all american people, by a wide margin.
post #48 of 60
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
In reverse, there is an anti-french behavior in USA, but it will never prevent me to go there, because I am sure that there is plenty of nice people, who did not give a rat-ass weither I am french or Martian.

You are welcome anytime Powerdoc!

Any time..

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #49 of 60
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Le Pen is a right winged populist, he surf among the sadest feelings common in france, like racism, nationalism ...
Many people vote le Pen, only to say Fuck you to politicians, and not because any real convictions.
Anti americanism exist but is very limited : if you want to see real anti-americanism, I suggest you to look in some part of the middle east.

In reverse, there is an anti-french behavior in USA, but it will never prevent me to go there, because I am sure that there is plenty of nice people, who did not give a rat-ass weither I am french or Martian.

And Segovius is right, there is not many intellectuals in France, right or left. Many people claims to be intellectual, but they don't deserve this mention. Sartre was an intellectual but very difficult to read. He died some decades ago, so his influence is small.

As a simple french people having acess to different groups of people, I can say that :
- people where really worried for 9/11
- people don't like Bush policy
- anti-americanism is very limited, and is more common to the left, who dislike the US model of economy (can you expect that a socialist love this model ?)
- There was great emotion for the 60 anniversary of the D-Day, especially among the older generations.

For me, if this sentiment exist in France he do not prevail. You will still find people who call the germans Boch, althought Germany is the best friend/ally of France.
The fact that book exist show that there is differents way of thinking in France, and some are agaisnt anti-americanism. It's not because Michael Moore did Farheinheit that every US people hate Bush. Sure some US people hate Bush, but it's not all american people, by a wide margin.

To give a little background, I'll add this...

Le Pen is a shame to our country, sure. But it's a known fact that he was a political creature created by Mitterand (our President before Chirac) to break the right in parts (you know, we're not a two party country) to win a second term. The problem is, the creature stayed alive... and did everything it could to keep on existing. To the point that it made it to the second turn of the elections in 2002, due to a fragmented left (you know, we're not a two party country ;-) and finished at 18% votes ! Now, the man (J-Marie Le Pen) is getting old and his daughter (Marine Le pen, his successor) is just not taken seriously. For those interested in some statistics on Le Pen (it's in French, but full of graphics ;-)

Anti-Americanism : Doesn't exists. honestly. Except in the mind of some complicated theorists, but you can't impeach people from thinking what they want and sign petitions. Those Leftish intellectuals do not even represent the actual French left, which is mostly center-left and has nothing against America IMHO. You could compare them to a J.Kerry better than J.Stalin.

But I'll add something : You Americans are very 'Transparent'. We know a lot about you, about your ways of life. We have tons of 'cultural' products from your country: Movies, Sitcoms (from Friends to Alias), iPods, etc... News or Opinion websites that we can read and understand... Even your government communicates a lot, more than any other.
So we have an opinion on your affairs. Something you can't really do with us because you don't know anything about us. (I think few of you read Libération (left), Le monde(center) or Le Figaro (right) very often. Whereas the NYT, the WashPost and the LA Times are in my Bookmarks. You never see our movies (they are rarelly blockbusters I agree), witch are the best ways to understand a country's references, humour, past, societal problems...) - We see yours !
Just one other example (not French) : If you want to understand modern Spain, see every Pedro Almodovar movies. Those movies are also important to us Europeans. We're not just Postcards.

Almost everyone here hates Bush. That's a fact. And the fact that he lied about WMD and that we (and the U.N.) said so a the time makes him even more detestable. The fact that he was warned that Iraq would become the playground for Islamic extremists/terrorists of all kind didn't changed anything. Now see the mess we're in... (to paraphrase Tom York ;-)

What else now... Well, it took me 2 hours to write twenty line and I forgot where I wanted to go...
Whatever, we love you buddies, just be carefull where you put your feets - and replace your ignorant President ;-)
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Merry Christmas !
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post #50 of 60
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
You are welcome anytime Powerdoc!

Any time..

Fellows

Thanks
post #51 of 60
Quote:
Anti-Americanism : Doesn't exists. honestly. Except in the mind of some complicated theorists, but you can't impeach people from thinking what they want and sign petitions. Those Leftish intellectuals do not even represent the actual French left, which is mostly center-left and has nothing against America IMHO. You could compare them to a J.Kerry better than J.Stalin.

Nonsense. Anti-Americanism exists just as surely as Islamophobia or Anti-Semitism. France has more than its fair share. Doesn't mean every Frenchman is a bigot, but the denial of its existence is a cheap way to gloss over a problem. Likewise such prejudices exist in the US including a segment of the population which espouses Francophobia. Ignoring the problem doesn't help solve it.

Quote:
But I'll add something : You Americans are very 'Transparent'. We know a lot about you, about your ways of life. We have tons of 'cultural' products from your country: Movies, Sitcoms (from Friends to Alias), iPods, etc... News or Opinion websites that we can read and understand... Even your government communicates a lot, more than any other.
So we have an opinion on your affairs. Something you can't really do with us because you don't know anything about us. (I think few of you read Libération (left), Le monde(center) or Le Figaro (right) very often. Whereas the NYT, the WashPost and the LA Times are in my Bookmarks. You never see our movies (they are rarelly blockbusters I agree), witch are the best ways to understand a country's references, humour, past, societal problems...) - We see yours !

Indeed. Tell me, during your travels through America, how well did your experiences fit your preconceived notions of America?

<Tongue Meets Cheek> A shame that I ever bothered to go to France when I could have merely sat around sipping Beaujolais Nouveau and reading Proust and I would have gotten the same experience. Oh wait. Americans don't drink wine, even crappy wine at that and they certainly don't read literature. Well then I suppose I shall go see if they are showing a special on the Eiffel Tower on the Travel Channel and I'll sip a nice Belgian beer. Belgium, France, they're practically neighbors and the Belgians speak French anyway when they are not speaking German. Or that other thing that they speak. So same thing. </Tongue Meets Cheek>

Transparent is a good choice of words for your post. For someone preaching no Anti-Americanism you were pretty quick to appeal to a common stereotypes and caricatures of Americans. Americans are ignorant of other cultures, worship wealth, have a bankrupt culture which they export for financial gain, yada yada yada. Do you realize that this is another variation on prejudice whose only difference is that it is far more fashionable than others at present? No different than the notion that the Muslim is an angry fundamentalist who comes to Europe to exploit its welfare system while engaging in street crime. Or that the Jew is a selfish money grubbing banker trying to control the world. Or that the Frenchman is a lazy coward who smells bad, is rude, arrogant and hypocritical. Or that the German is a represseed humorless machine whose women are mostly shaped like bull cows. Or that the Italian is an ass-grabbing mafioso. All the same. Unfortunately neither my electronic trinkets, nor my glowing box which tells me what to think, nor my glorious President- God Bless him- nor my minister have managed to capture my short American attention span so I'm left to reply to Frenchmen on an internet message board in order to distract me from the pain of my hollow American existence. Hopefully none of the 300 million other Americans will follow suit. Replying to all of them might be time consuming for you. On the other hand, since you've already gotten them all pegged the same and you know what we know and don't know, well then you can just copy and paste the same reply to each one of us.

Quote:
replace your ignorant President ;-)

Gladly. I hope you'll do the same as well with your head of state. Chirac's attempts at achieving an artificial revival of French geopolitical influence by using a garbled combination of EU and UN empowerment to further his vision of multipolarity with French culture as the epicenter of the other pole is certainly one of the greatest threats to Western unity and thereby global security at present. Let's hope these dangerous men can be removed.
post #52 of 60
Quote:
Originally posted by ColanderOfDeath


Gladly. I hope you'll do the same as well with your head of state. Chirac's attempts at achieving an artificial revival of French geopolitical influence by using a garbled combination of EU and UN empowerment to further his vision of multipolarity with French culture as the epicenter of the other pole is certainly one of the greatest threats to Western unity and thereby global security at present. Let's hope these dangerous men can be removed.

I agree with this one, but for differents reasons. I don't want Chirac seeking for a third mandate. I think that we should adopt the US constitution who limit the president to two mandates.

And for the the greatest threat to western unity, it sounds to me like a joke
post #53 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
I agree with this one, but for differents reasons. I don't want Chirac seeking for a third mandate. I think that we should adopt the US constitution who limit the president to two mandates.

And for the the greatest threat to western unity, it sounds to me like a joke

You must appreciate that Americans have always liked the French.

After traveling the country, Mark Twain had many kind thoughts about the French people:


In certain public indecencies the difference between a dog & a Frenchman is not perceptible.
- Notebook #17, October 1878 - February 1879

France has usually been governed by prostitutes.
- Notebook #18, Feb.- Sept. 1879

Trivial Americans go to Paris when they die.
- Notebook #18, Feb.- Sept. 1879

A Frenchman's home is where another man's wife is.
- Notebook #18, Feb.- Sept. 1879

An isolated & helpless young girl is perfectly safe from insult by a Frenchman, if he is dead.
- Notebook #20, Jan. 1882 - Feb. 1883

A dead Frenchman has many good qualities, many things to recommend him; many attractions--even innocencies. Why cannot we have more of these?
- Notebook #20, Jan. 1882 - Feb. 1883


post #54 of 60
Mark Twain, was famous for not having his tongue in cheeks. Considering the times where he live, it was fantastic

I am not Expert of Twain, but I think he made others fantastic comments about other countries, or part of the US society
post #55 of 60
Twain really had nothing bad to say about Americans. His wrath was pretty much directed at Frenchmen, especially those who work in cosmetic surgery. When you're trying to pilot a steamboat nothing is more irritating than the visual distraction of your passengers' fake boobs bouncing around and the accompanying sloshing noise- which is eerily similar to that of water entering a breached hull- that those bouncing Powerdoc-implanted boobs make.
post #56 of 60
I am an American with a bilingual French background:

I got both ends of the spectrum growing up:
Some friend's families were extreme Francophiles and believed, in their vulgar, nouvauex riche way, that I, because I was part French, could give the final yay or nay on their outrageously over-priced bottles of wine that they paraded around!! Hah! I don't even like wine!

The other end of the spectrum, and this happened more, was getting rude remarks to my mother's accent while in public,
and, in school being ridiculed because they immediately assumed that since my mother was French that we were complete snobs . . . and I mean ridiculed, non-stop teasing . . . .

I tend to think that there is such a thing as anti-Americanims in France and that some of it is justified: I think that much of France is afraid of the 'Gigantism' of American culture: giant strip-malls, giant shopping, wall-marts etc, giant driving, cars, Cities that are designed exclusively around automobiles!!! big expensive and vapid movies etc as well as the fear that the slower life that seems to be concerned with elements of life other than making money might dissapear if the influence of American culture continues: fast food, desperation to keep jobs, no vacation time, no non-work life . . . and all this for giant paychecks with little taxation devoted to the non-profit aspects of life. I can see that many Europeans are afraid of loosing some subtle values that are embedded in their culture that Americans, at least the exporting big business sort, patently find unimportant . . . . somethng subtle which some peope might feel is absolutely essential ifthe term 'civilized' is to be used in conjunction with Civilization

I see the surrounding region around the city of Tours in France and I see a reall Americanification: huge endless strip malls on and on for miles . . . I don't think that it is 'American' but that it has become associated with America because it is our business model that is being exported.

(I think this point about the cities and automobiles is a deeply American situation: I think the car has shaped America and Americanism more than any other single factor, and is probably responsible for the shape of our current business models, and, IMO, our lack of civility and social relations and yes, a form of alienation . . . we don't relate to one another on the street like many old European cities where the people make a point to take walks in the crowded city center each day -- our 'city centers' are gigantic shopping malls that you have to get in your car to get to . . . and sometimes even get in your car just to get to another store IN THE SAME MALL! also this contributes very much to our epidemic of obesity .
. . in fact, this epidemic is perfectly symbolic, no, symptomatic of the problems with American 'Gigantism' stemming from our automobile culture

anyway, of course there are many fantastic things that have come from this said culture (think 68 finned Cadillac!!!!) as well as a intellectual mobility that, in Camille Paglia's (para)phrase: "doesn't need Deconstruction, we allready are Deconstructed"

anyway . . . two cents
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #57 of 60
Quote:
Originally posted by ColanderOfDeath
Twain really had nothing bad to say about Americans. His wrath was pretty much directed at Frenchmen, especially those who work in cosmetic surgery. When you're trying to pilot a steamboat nothing is more irritating than the visual distraction of your passengers' fake boobs bouncing around and the accompanying sloshing noise- which is eerily similar to that of water entering a breached hull- that those bouncing Powerdoc-implanted boobs make.

The irritating thing with a steamboat, is that your hands are already busy with the weel, and that they can do nothing for these fine boobs or butts ...

I have suggested Twain once, that I may graft him two arms, but he replied me that one hand was sufficiant for his sexual practices ...How unfortunate, he was, to lose such an opportunitie
post #58 of 60
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
I am an American with a bilingual French background:

I got both ends of the spectrum growing up:
Some friend's families were extreme Francophiles and believed, in their vulgar, nouvauex riche way, that I, because I was part French, could give the final yay or nay on their outrageously over-priced bottles of wine that they paraded around!! Hah! I don't even like wine!

The other end of the spectrum, and this happened more, was getting rude remarks to my mother's accent while in public,
and, in school being ridiculed because they immediately assumed that since my mother was French that we were complete snobs . . . and I mean ridiculed, non-stop teasing . . . .

I tend to think that there is such a thing as anti-Americanims in France and that some of it is justified: I think that much of France is afraid of the 'Gigantism' of American culture: giant strip-malls, giant shopping, wall-marts etc, giant driving, cars, Cities that are designed exclusively around automobiles!!! big expensive and vapid movies etc as well as the fear that the slower life that seems to be concerned with elements of life other than making money might dissapear if the influence of American culture continues: fast food, desperation to keep jobs, no vacation time, no non-work life . . . and all this for giant paychecks with little taxation devoted to the non-profit aspects of life. I can see that many Europeans are afraid of loosing some subtle values that are embedded in their culture that Americans, at least the exporting big business sort, patently find unimportant . . . . somethng subtle which some peope might feel is absolutely essential ifthe term 'civilized' is to be used in conjunction with Civilization

I see the surrounding region around the city of Tours in France and I see a reall Americanification: huge endless strip malls on and on for miles . . . I don't think that it is 'American' but that it has become associated with America because it is our business model that is being exported.

(I think this point about the cities and automobiles is a deeply American situation: I think the car has shaped America and Americanism more than any other single factor, and is probably responsible for the shape of our current business models, and, IMO, our lack of civility and social relations and yes, a form of alienation . . . we don't relate to one another on the street like many old European cities where the people make a point to take walks in the crowded city center each day -- our 'city centers' are gigantic shopping malls that you have to get in your car to get to . . . and sometimes even get in your car just to get to another store IN THE SAME MALL! also this contributes very much to our epidemic of obesity .
. . in fact, this epidemic is perfectly symbolic, no, symptomatic of the problems with American 'Gigantism' stemming from our automobile culture

anyway, of course there are many fantastic things that have come from this said culture (think 68 finned Cadillac!!!!) as well as a intellectual mobility that, in Camille Paglia's (para)phrase: "doesn't need Deconstruction, we allready are Deconstructed"

anyway . . . two cents

Big is beautifull. That's the way I see USA, even the mountains are bigger here
post #59 of 60
I know you are old power, but that you knew Mark Twain comes as a surprise.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #60 of 60
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
I know you are old power, but that you knew Mark Twain comes as a surprise.

The most difficult part is to look young. Too many lift on me have backward effects : now you understand why this is my favorite smiley
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