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post #81 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
It's like talking to goddamned wall. It has nothing to do with history, it has to do with prudence. Jesus Christ, it's not even a partisan issue. Get over it.

Oh, and since you've kindly explained "why Bush hasn't run things above board", I guess I should accept your bullshit and move on.

Your last comment is just hilarious. This has NOTHING TO DO WITH WHO IS PRESIDENT RIGHT NOW.

You need to read the thread before you post things out of context.

My history comment posted right after your reply to sammi jo

" You have a well documented history of unreasonable and idiotic conspiracy theories with reagrds to government, corporate America and well, everything worth noting . Your statements go beyond the realm of any reasonable and credible political discourse. "

That's what history I was talking about.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #82 of 154
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001

And oh, I forgot: Now you're implying that the administration knew about the anthrax attacks in advance too? [/B]

Well, if Cheney said that all White House staff started taking CIPRO on September 12, 2001, you tell me who appears to have been informed of anthrax attacks in advance? Taking a course of CIPRO is no small deal...that stuff is one heavy duty antibiotic. Doctors do not precribe that material on a whim. And...it is the one universally prescribed for anthrax infection..

So SDW...oh knowledgeable one, pray tell the world: how come the people who work in the White House started taking a very powerful and specific antibiotic treatment for anthrax infection 6 days before the word "anthrax" became a household word? To repeat, slightly with a different emphasis: Do you have another explanation of why White House staffers started taking CIPRO one day after 9-11, and 6 days before the first anthrax mailing. I would love to hear it. Does your explanation pass the "duck test"? Do you even have an explanation ior theory? Is it a common occurence for White House staffers to take courses of CIPRO? Maybe you know something about this that nobody else does? By the way, the simplest explanation is often the reality, and a journey into black helicopter-land is redundant. The repetition, ad nauseam, of "conspiracy" accusations is your stock-in -trade accusation. This is what happens when you have no alternative facts to back up your own arguments.

And....btw...what an horrible, sick scandal that the fate of those postal (and other) workers was ignored, even weeks after (exceptionally pure and potent) anthrax had started polluting facilities in the east coast US Mail system. I guess the Bush Administration, (or whoever else was responsible), felt that those public servants weren't significant enough on the pecking order to warn, help and in some cases, have their lives saved.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #83 of 154
Sammi, it's how you jump to conclusions that makes it funny.

If what you say is true, the White House had some advance notice that an anthrax attack was imminent. I imagine the WH would be getting hourly briefings of every kind of threat the day after 9-11. And taking them much more seriously. Given that political leaders had been targeted the day before, the assumption seems to have been made that those that escaped (aka The White House) might be the primary target of the attack.

Did you really expect Bush to shut down the entire postal system for a possible biological attack when the country wanted to know how safe the aviation system was? How do you know he was warned that the attack would target " the east coast US Mail system" alone? Was he supposed to order the shutdown of all tabloids in Florida too?

You've identified Bush as the enemy, and you're throwing mud to see what sticks. From up here, it's kinda sad to watch people throw vitriol at personalities instead of debating the real issues. It's even worse that your spinmeisters are now being employed by our political parties too.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #84 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
2. The culprits of 9/11 ARE known.

I question that.

Work with me here - let's assume I have just arrived from another planet or am a complete incompetent idiot (not difficult I know) - who are they ?

Please explain it to me without spin, assumptions or anything else. Just tell it like you would if I had somehow never heard who they were. Just who they were and why they did it.

Please.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #85 of 154
Scott Peterson and Alex Krychec
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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post #86 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
Well, if Cheney said that all White House staff started taking CIPRO on September 12, 2001, you tell me who appears to have been informed of anthrax attacks in advance? Taking a course of CIPRO is no small deal...that stuff is one heavy duty antibiotic. Doctors do not precribe that material on a whim. And...it is the one universally prescribed for anthrax infection..

So SDW...oh knowledgeable one, pray tell the world: how come the people who work in the White House started taking a very powerful and specific antibiotic treatment for anthrax infection 6 days before the word "anthrax" became a household word? To repeat, slightly with a different emphasis: Do you have another explanation of why White House staffers started taking CIPRO one day after 9-11, and 6 days before the first anthrax mailing. I would love to hear it. Does your explanation pass the "duck test"? Do you even have an explanation ior theory? Is it a common occurence for White House staffers to take courses of CIPRO? Maybe you know something about this that nobody else does? By the way, the simplest explanation is often the reality, and a journey into black helicopter-land is redundant. The repetition, ad nauseam, of "conspiracy" accusations is your stock-in -trade accusation. This is what happens when you have no alternative facts to back up your own arguments.

And....btw...what an horrible, sick scandal that the fate of those postal (and other) workers was ignored, even weeks after (exceptionally pure and potent) anthrax had started polluting facilities in the east coast US Mail system. I guess the Bush Administration, (or whoever else was responsible), felt that those public servants weren't significant enough on the pecking order to warn, help and in some cases, have their lives saved.

it really doesn't matter if Cheney et.al. had Cipro prior to the Anthrax mailings. What is more significant is the fact that it was sourced in the US and traced back to a US military installation where the story holed up and died. Either the networks are on the dole or someone put extreme pressure on them to cease reporting on this. And what happened to the fellow who was threatening to talk about that Anthrax? Where is he? Why did he feel it neccessary to "threaten" to talk and never carry through? Could it be that Anthrax could be linked to any Anthrax that Saddam had? If it could be then it would put the US government in a serious legal bind. Perhaps the lack of WMD is not accidental for similar reasons. But we'll never know because no one is talking.
As sure as the Bible is missing books
George Bush is missing sense
and violence breeds more violence
But this ain't really about Hussein
Regime change
Crashing Airplanes
or buildings falling in flames
Reply
As sure as the Bible is missing books
George Bush is missing sense
and violence breeds more violence
But this ain't really about Hussein
Regime change
Crashing Airplanes
or buildings falling in flames
Reply
post #87 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
I question that.

Work with me here - let's assume I have just arrived from another planet or am a complete incompetent idiot (not difficult I know) - who are they ?

Please explain it to me without spin, assumptions or anything else. Just tell it like you would if I had somehow never heard who they were. Just who they were and why they did it.

Please.

Islamic fundamentalists with known associates in Islamic fundamentalist groups, who shared flats with other Islamic fundamentalists, who made phone calls to Islamic terrorrists responsible for the Madrid bombs, who went off for training in camps run for trainee terrorists in Afghanistan, whose families have written articles published in Britain's Sunday newspapers about how they changed beyong recognition when they fell in with fundamentalist Islamic groups.

I haven't seen any serious evidence that any of these people are alive.

There may be a conspiracy here somewhere, but it was members of an Islamic terror cell who hijacked those planes and killed all those people. It seems to me like you have to go round the houses to find evidence to the contrary.
post #88 of 154
Oh: and why did they do it? Because they are trying to change the world 'for the better'. They're trying to bring it all down and make a change. They're 'freedom fighters'. They're sociopaths, they're religious fundamentalists; they're not sane.
post #89 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Islamic fundamentalists with known associates in Islamic fundamentalist groups, who shared flats with other Islamic fundamentalists, who made phone calls to Islamic terrorrists responsible for the Madrid bombs, who went off for training in camps run for trainee terrorists in Afghanistan, whose families have written articles published in Britain's Sunday newspapers about how they changed beyong recognition when they fell in with fundamentalist Islamic groups.

Ok - looks like SDW's deserted and gone awol so I'll accept you as a stand in Hasan - unfeasible though it seems

I don't want to be boring but as all those claims are tenuous and I have seen no such actual evidence (as opposed to journalistic/political statements)
then I've got to ask for some proof. Tedious as that is.

Quote:
I haven't seen any serious evidence that any of these people are alive.

What is serious evidence ?

Let's assume that it is of the same qualitative degree of the evidence that suggests they actually did it - please share it as I have seen far more evidence that they are alive than that they were on those planes. In fact I have seen no actual evidence (beyond official statements) that they were and plenty of suggestions (if not actual evidence) that they weren't.

I don't want any 'conspiracy' bs from anyone on this either - it might well be that Islamic fundamentalists did do 911 but they stole the identities of people who are actually still alive. Any number of rational possibilities spring to mind - my point is not about fundamentalists or the perps, it is that we are not being told the truth whatever that truth is.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #90 of 154
Sammi Jo, no ofense but maybe you should put your energies somewhere else rather this website. join an origanization to help uncover these so-called conspiracies or get into politics and try and make a difference. i don't just a though

AQ does exist, they are responisble for 9-11, the current adim does cry about terrorism a lot but you just wait until they strike America again, i suspect it will make 9-11 look like a drive by shooting
post #91 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
Well, if Cheney said that all White House staff started taking CIPRO on September 12, 2001, you tell me who appears to have been informed of anthrax attacks in advance? Taking a course of CIPRO is no small deal...that stuff is one heavy duty antibiotic. Doctors do not precribe that material on a whim. And...it is the one universally prescribed for anthrax infection..

So SDW...oh knowledgeable one, pray tell the world: how come the people who work in the White House started taking a very powerful and specific antibiotic treatment for anthrax infection 6 days before the word "anthrax" became a household word? To repeat, slightly with a different emphasis: Do you have another explanation of why White House staffers started taking CIPRO one day after 9-11, and 6 days before the first anthrax mailing. I would love to hear it. Does your explanation pass the "duck test"? Do you even have an explanation ior theory? Is it a common occurence for White House staffers to take courses of CIPRO? Maybe you know something about this that nobody else does? By the way, the simplest explanation is often the reality, and a journey into black helicopter-land is redundant. The repetition, ad nauseam, of "conspiracy" accusations is your stock-in -trade accusation. This is what happens when you have no alternative facts to back up your own arguments.

And....btw...what an horrible, sick scandal that the fate of those postal (and other) workers was ignored, even weeks after (exceptionally pure and potent) anthrax had started polluting facilities in the east coast US Mail system. I guess the Bush Administration, (or whoever else was responsible), felt that those public servants weren't significant enough on the pecking order to warn, help and in some cases, have their lives saved.

I agree that there is something strange about the speed with which the Anthrax story died.

However . . . Cheney 'said' that people started taking CIPRO, which would mean that many of the people who had started to take CIPRO would clearly have discerned a problem with the timing . . . why is it that only 'Cheney said' it and none of these people have said anything?

I also have to admit that some of those so called 'facts' in your first list of suspicious facts are really without any credibility . . . this '2.3 richter scale' thing reminds me of the radio phone0in caller that repeatedly described an offshore EMP pulse explosion that was 'well known' prior to the great Blackout . . .he was rambling and had to be cut off . . .

and what are the sources for these 'facts' . . . the most credible source that you list is the MSNBC site with reference to the Israeli spies . .

What abot other sources? . .

For instance, you say that the videos have been proven to be fakes . . . the only place that I have encountered that 'proved' they were fakes was a site that 'conclusively' placed images side by side and said 'voila!' . . . so much for scientific method!
And, the repeated claim of 'they are still alive"? I know that there was an incident with a 'Most Wanted' man that turned up a teacher in Packistan . . . or somethng like that, but I have read nothing about the hijackers . . . . give us some citations or clam-it!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #92 of 154
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
I agree that there is something strange about the speed with which the Anthrax story died.

Too damned right there is.

Quote:
However . . . Cheney 'said' that people started taking CIPRO, which would mean that many of the people who had started to take CIPRO would clearly have discerned a problem with the timing . . . why is it that only 'Cheney said' it and none of these people have said anything?

Maybe they have? I don't know. But I do know that Cheney said that.

This report (from a rightwing site):
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=27888

Quote:
I also have to admit that some of those so called 'facts' in your first list of suspicious facts are really without any credibility . . . this '2.3 richter scale' thing reminds me of the radio phone0in caller that repeatedly described an offshore EMP pulse explosion that was 'well known' prior to the great Blackout . . .he was rambling and had to be cut off . . .

From this article:
http://www.americanfreepress.net/09_..._seismic_.html

Quote:
SEISMIC SPIKES

Seismographs at Columbia Universitys Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, N.Y., 21 miles north of the WTC, recorded strange seismic activity on Sept. 11 that has still not been explained.

While the aircraft crashes caused minimal earth shaking, significant earthquakes with unusual spikes occurred at the beginning of each collapse.

The Palisades seismic data recorded a 2.1 magnitude earthquake during the 10-second collapse of the South Tower at 9:59:04 and a 2.3 quake during the 8-second collapse of the North Tower at 10:28:31.

However, the Palisades seismic record shows thatas the collapses begana huge seismic spike marked the moment the greatest energy went into the ground. The strongest jolts were all registered at the beginning of the collapses, well before the falling debris struck the Earth.

These unexplained spikes in the seismic data lend credence to the theory that massive explosions at the base of the towers caused the collapses.

A sharp spike of short duration is how seismologist Thorne Lay of University of California at Santa Cruz told AFP an underground nuclear explosion appears on a seismograph.

The two unexplained spikes are more than 20 times the amplitude of the other seismic waves associated with the collapses and occurred in the East-West seismic recording as the buildings began to fall.

Experts cannot explain why the seismic waves peaked before the towers actually hit the ground.

Asked about these spikes, seismologist Arthur Lerner-Lam, director of Columbia Universitys Center for Hazards and Risk Research told AFP, This is an element of current research and discussion. It is still being investigated.

Lerner-Lam told AFP that a 10-fold increase in wave amplitude indicates a 100-fold increase in energy released. These short-period surface waves, reflect the interaction between the ground and the building foundation, according to a report from Columbia Earth Institute.

The seismic effects of the collapses are comparable to the explosions at a gasoline tank farm near Newark on Jan. 7, 1983, the Palisades Seismology Group reported on Sept. 14, 2001.

One of the seismologists, Won-Young Kim, told AFP that the Palisades seismographs register daily underground explosions from a quarry 20 miles away.

These blasts are caused by 80,000 pounds of ammonium nitrate and cause local earthquakes between Magnitude 1 and 2. Kim said the 1993 truck-bomb at the WTC did not register on the seismographs because it was not coupled to the ground.

Only a small fraction of the energy from the collapsing towers was converted into ground motion, Lerner-Lam said. The ground shaking that resulted from the collapse of the towers was extremely small.

Last November, Lerner-Lam said: During the collapse, most of the energy of the falling debris was absorbed by the towers and the neighboring structures, converting them into rubble and dust or causing other damagebut not causing significant ground shaking.

Evidently, the energy source that shook the ground beneath the towers was many times more powerful than the total potential energy released by the falling mass of the towers. The question is: What was that energy source?

While steel is often tested for evidence of explosions, despite numerous eyewitness reports of explosions in the towers, the engineers involved in the FEMA-sponsored building assessment did no such tests.

Dr. W. Gene Corley, who investigated for the government the cause of the fire at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco and the Oklahoma City bombing, headed the FEMA-sponsored engineering assessment of the WTC collapse.

Corley told AFP that while some tests had been done on the 80 pieces of steel saved from the site, he said he did not know about tests that show if an explosion had affected the steel.

I am not a metallurgist, Corley said.

Much of the structural steel from the WTC was sold to Alan D. Ratner of Metal Management of Newark, N.J., and the New York-based company Hugo Neu Schnitzer East.

Ratner, who heads the New Jersey branch of the Chi ca go-based company, sold the WTC steel to overseas companies, reportedly selling more than 50,000 tons of steel to a Shanghai steel company known as Baosteel for $120 per ton. Ratner paid about $70 per ton for the steel.

Other shipments of steel from the WTC went to India and other Asian ports.

Ratner came to Metal Management after spending years with a metal trading firm known as SimsMetal based out of Sydney, Australia.

Calling any geologists in the house??? Lets have some scientific explanations for those seismic spikes that happened just a few seconds before EACH building's collapse, that are some TWENTY times the magnitude of those recorded when the buildings actually came down.

Quote:
and what are the sources for these 'facts' . . . the most credible source that you list is the MSNBC site with reference to the Israeli spies . .

Good overview of the story here:
http://ww1.sundayherald.com/37707
I am amazed that people don't know this stuff...it has been all over the news. Do some googling, and there's hundreds of links to stories in the regular media. As I keep maintaining....you don't even need to get into the land of the "paranoid" for most of this stuff.

MSNBC the most credible....O.M.G.



Quote:
What abot other sources? . .

For instance, you say that the videos have been proven to be fakes . . . the only place that I have encountered that 'proved' they were fakes was a site that 'conclusively' placed images side by side and said 'voila!' . . . so much for scientific method!

Go look at the video! It's all over the net.... The "Osama" in the video wears a gold ring...something absolutely verboten for a fundamentalist Islamic. The "Osama" in the video is is credited with subtitles for things he is "saying" when his lips are not moving, and on another occasion he is eating something and doesn't say anything for 3 minutes (!). The "Osama" in the video is writing notes with his right hand, but the FBI's description of Osama says that he is left handed. The "Osama" in the video has a face of a different shape...more square than Osama's long skinny face, and the eyes are set far further apart. And...the "translation" of what "Osama" was (or not!) saying appears to be "mistranslated, manipulative, inaccurate and misleading".

http://dc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/16801

About the only similarity between these two men is that Osama and "Osama" both have big long beards and wear middle eastern attire. Unfortunately for everyone, that seems good enough for 99.5% of the US population. Sad.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/september1...619188,00.html

But wait...there's more:

Quote:
And, the repeated claim of 'they are still alive"? I know that there was an incident with a 'Most Wanted' man that turned up a teacher in Packistan . . . or somethng like that, but I have read nothing about the hijackers . . . . give us some citations or clam-it! [/B]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1559151.stm
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...sp?story=94438
http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...0/wterr120.xml
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/21/inv.id.theft/

And PLEASE READ this comment by FBI chief Mueller: I know someone posted it earlier, but it seems that too many people want to yell CONSPIRACYTHEORIST!!!! rather than look at contrary evidence and then face up to some disquieting possibilities:

http://www.americanfreepress.net/051...evidence_.html

Now look at this webpage:
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/092701hjpic.htm

Now we have the situation that the FBI chief reckons that the IDs of the hijcakers is in doubt, and at the same time, on his own FBI website, are pictures and names of those 19 men, a number of whom are very much alive. Why haven't they edited this to tell us what the identities of those 19 (?) people really were? Two possibilities: Either (1) they have no idea, or (2) they do and do not want to admit to a mistake after all this time.

Even if just one of the hijackers' real identities is in doubt, this would put a severe strain on the credibility of the official story that everyone has been told time after time. But when as many as seven may still be alive....well...you tell me.

And one more thing: Why have these issues not been dealt with by the so-called "Independent Commission on 9-11"??? It would have saved so many people and researchers so much time and so much trouble if the Commission could have laid out its findings to the public on these anomalies...and put our minds at rest, by squashing the so-called "conspiracy theories" with sound science and evidence. Not only that but such findings would have vindicated the Bush administration against the growing army of skeptics, both here in America and all around the world. The commission failed to address so much material. Even the vital evidence of firefighters who climbed up to the floors in the towers which had been impacted was PROHIBITED from being presented to the commission.

Why, why, why?????
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #93 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
For instance, you say that the videos have been proven to be fakes . . . the only place that I have encountered that 'proved' they were fakes was a site that 'conclusively' placed images side by side and said 'voila!' . . . so much for scientific method!
And, the repeated claim of 'they are still alive"? I know that there was an incident with a 'Most Wanted' man that turned up a teacher in Packistan . . . or somethng like that, but I have read nothing about the hijackers . . . . give us some citations or clam-it!

I'll have a stab if I may:

Re the fake videos (I take it you refer to the OBL tapes):

German TV is currently investigating some blatant White House mistranslations of the tapes. Link to IndyMedia article with further links to the broadcasts (in German).

It is interesting, not so much as any proof or otherwise of OBL's involvement but as proof that the US authorities lied about OBL's involvement on this occasion.

Why would they need to do this (and there are many other occasions) if they had any real proof ?

More importantly, the 'dead' hijackers:

BBC article: 23rd September 2001

That's 12 days after 911. From the article - I'll bold the interesting bits:

Quote:
Another of the men named by the FBI as a hijacker in the suicide attacks on Washington and New York has turned up alive and well.

The identities of four of the 19 suspects accused of having carried out the attacks are now in doubt.

Saudi Arabian pilot Waleed Al Shehri was one of five men that the FBI said had deliberately crashed American Airlines flight 11 into the World Trade Centre on 11 September.....

Now he is protesting his innocence from Casablanca, Morocco.

He told journalists there that he had nothing to do with the attacks on New York and Washington, and had been in Morocco when they happened. He has contacted both the Saudi and American authorities, according to Saudi press reports.

He acknowledges that he attended flight training school at Dayton Beach in the United States, and is indeed the same Waleed Al Shehri to whom the FBI has been referring.

But, he says, he left the United States in September last year, became a pilot with Saudi Arabian airlines and is currently on a further training course in Morocco.

Abdulaziz Al Omari, another of the Flight 11 hijack suspects, has also been quoted in Arab news reports. He says he is an engineer with Saudi Telecoms, and that he lost his passport while studying in Denver.

Another man with exactly the same name surfaced on the pages of the English-language Arab News. The second Abdulaziz Al Omari is a pilot for Saudi Arabian Airlines, the report says.

Meanwhile, Asharq Al Awsat newspaper, a London-based Arabic daily, says it has interviewed Saeed Alghamdi.

And there are suggestions that another suspect, Khalid Al Midhar, may also be alive.

FBI Director Robert Mueller acknowledged on Thursday that the identity of several of the suicide hijackers is in doubt.

So, the Feds acknowledge there is doubt 12 days later but there is no action taken and the 'gospel' is still gospel three years later to the extent that it has to be argued as a point here.

Why ? Are they not interested in the truth ? And if so, why not ?

But there's more.

Guardian article reporting Atta's father's claim to have spoken to him 2 days after 911.

BBC article which mentions that Atta reported his passport lost or stolen in 1999.

Daily Telegraph report adds more details to the mix and brings total of alive hijackers to at least 7.

Passenger lists: these are in the public domain so you would think that it could shed some light on this issue. You'd be wrong.

This is the list of AA Flight 11 passengers (CNN)

Flight 77 - Pentagon (CNN)

UA 175 (CNN)

UA 93 (CNN)

No Arab names, a fact that can be verified by a quick Google. The explanation is usually that they used aliases but then you have other problems that it's probably best not to get into here, not least of which is Atta's miraculous passport which survived the fireball, escaped from the plane and emerged intact on the ground to be found by the Feds.

That's frankly unbelievable and again raises the question: if they lied then why did they need to ? There is no need to lie about something you have proof of - but if you have no proof.......
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #94 of 154
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by burningwheel

Sammi Jo, no ofense but maybe you should put your energies somewhere else rather this website.[ join an origanization to help uncover these so-called conspiracies or get into politics and try and make a difference.

Why single me out?

[quote]AQ does exist,
that's undisputed...I never ever claimed that is doesn't. I only linked to an article by terrorism reseachers that talks about how the term "al qaida" was less the product of those who supposedly belong to "it" than a way of lumping various separate middle eastern groups...etc. etc.

Quote:
they are responisble for 9-11,

So we have been told a bazillion times, by a thousand people. If you can show me the undisputable evidence of your claim, then lets have it.So far, it is a theory, and nothing more. So far, all we have is people who have been accused of being members of al qaida, the identities of whom are even in doubt as expressed by even the FBI chief...(see link in previous post). What else do we have? Some circumstantial, and highly disputed stuff which would never stand up in a US court.

Quote:
the current adim does cry about terrorism a lot but you just wait until they strike America again, i suspect it will make 9-11 look like a drive by shooting [/B]

read that sentence again...I think you said something that you didn't mean!
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #95 of 154
Note: wrote all above whilst Sammi Jo was posting hers and thus covered more or less the same ground - apologies.

Oh and this was meant to be an edit....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #96 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
I know it's wrong to generalize, but Americans can be so funny sometimes.

Bunge, you do realize that most of the countries in the civilized, democratic world don't have fixed election dates. Most elections are generally called whenever the Government decides to go to the people within its five year term.

If a catastrophic attack led to a bipartisan call to delay the election for a month, I really can't see how American democracy is diminished.

Constitutions are changed on a daily basis, which is why Congress or Parliament exists in the first place. I really can't understand the alarmist tone that's being taken here.

Of course I understand this. I lived in Italy for a better part of two years and their government collapsed several times while I was there. We're not in Italy here though.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #97 of 154
Sammi,

It is clear that you believe the American Government is responsible for 9/11. There is no other way to take your statements. Just come out and say it.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #98 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Sammi,

It is clear that you believe the American Government is responsible for 9/11. There is no other way to take your statements. Just come out and say it.


A baited question if I ever heard one.

I think the chances of that being the case are small. I don't think Bush is that smart.

However on the other hand....

I think many of us don't dismiss the possibility as easily as you do. The way it happened is awfully odd.

Also the american government is not always above wrong doing ( even at the highest levels ) as we've seen previously with Watergate.

Sorry and feel free to answer in your own way sammi. I just had to comment.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #99 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
Also the american government is not always above wrong doing ( even at the highest levels ) as we've seen previously with Watergate.

Indeed. Though I think it may be a Hail Mary to suggest that because one administration was willing to break into an office and steal files another is willing to kill 3000 of it's own citizens.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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post #100 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
Indeed. Though I think it may be a Hail Mary to suggest that because one administration was willing to break into an office and steal files another is willing to kill 3000 of it's own citizens.

Although the administration would have to admit to killing 1000+ of its own citizens by sending them to Iraq. Say you have some international terrorists. You know they hate your country. You know they're trying to acquire weapons of mass destruction to use on your country. You know they've attacked your country before. They're a clear threat. How do you justify eliminating them? Dropping bombs on a sovereign nation is not something you can (should?) do without provocation...

Under those circumstances, sacrificing 3000 lives is justified by simple algebra, even if the American public would never swallow it.
post #101 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by a10t2
Although the administration would have to admit to killing 1000+ of its own citizens by sending them to Iraq.

That's a big number for friendly fire. Are you sure about that figure? How about the enemy killed them?
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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post #102 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
That's a big number for friendly fire. Are you sure about that figure? How about the enemy killed them?

Don't trust a politician to tell you who your enemies are.
post #103 of 154
...or a spotty filmmaker.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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post #104 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
...or a spotty filmmaker.

I don't need Moore to tell me who my enemies are. I already knew and just agree with him.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #105 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
Indeed. Though I think it may be a Hail Mary to suggest that because one administration was willing to break into an office and steal files another is willing to kill 3000 of it's own citizens.

Probably true and yet crime in general has grown much more bold since the 1970's. Lots of works of fiction have been written about that kind of possibility. Maybe it was time for some extemely stupid president to try something no sane person would.

Before the conservatives jump on me for wearing a tin foil hat it was just entertaining an idea.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #106 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
I don't need Moore to tell me who my enemies are. I already knew and just agree with him.

The same logic applies for the assertion that a politician was soley responsible for one's concept of who the enemy is. Hence, the assertion made by a10t2 is utter bunk 2x over at this point.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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post #107 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
The same logic applies for the assertion that a politician was soley responsible for one's concept of who the enemy is. Hence, the assertion made by a10t2 is utter bunk 2x over at this point.

It's simple. Give us some " facts " to the contrary.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #108 of 154
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #109 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
Indeed. Though I think it may be a Hail Mary to suggest that because one administration was willing to break into an office and steal files another is willing to kill 3000 of it's own citizens.

Let's be clear though, willing to allow an unknown terrorist attack to happen isn't the same as being willing to kill 3000 of your own citizens.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #110 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
The same logic applies for the assertion that a politician was soley responsible for one's concept of who the enemy is. Hence, the assertion made by a10t2 is utter bunk 2x over at this point.

The way I see it the politicians WERE the sole source of statements that Iraq was an enemy. I certainly don't recall anyone else calling for an invasion prior to the Bush/Powell song and dance.

And hindsight may be 20/20 but it seems pretty clear to me that Iraq simply wasn't a credible threat to the US, or anyone else for that matter.

My whole point with that statement is that were I a soldier killed in a "war" of dubious necessity, I know I would consider the politicians who sent me off to die more of an enemy than the Iraqi civilian who killed me.
post #111 of 154
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Sammi,

It is clear that you believe the American Government is responsible for 9/11. There is no other way to take your statements. Just come out and say it.

SDW, all I have done is ask questions, trying to understand why the story we have all been told umpteen million times is so lacking. I have listed a number of things which don't gel with the official story. There are many more of these anomalies, covered in the press which haven't even been mentioned in this thread. In isolation, they are very peculiar, but when taken into context in the larger picture, nothing seems to make any sense. And by the way, there is some far strange stuff about 9-11 which hasn't made its way into the regular media, and is covered by many alternative sites. This material ranges from non-factual hysteria and nonsense, to yet more disquieting strangeness.

What is so wrong, about asking questions? Or in this age of Bush and conformity, are we Americans all required to put up, shut up, don't ask questions and if you think there's something wrong, then find another country to live in? That is the attitude of many folk who support Bush, which in my mind, is so notAmerica.

And as for blaming the US government for responsibility in 9-11:
I haven't apportioned blame towards any party, because I have seen no proof which is strong enough and indisputable enough to land a conviction in a US court, (assuming that the hearing wasn't laced from head to foot with gag orders . All the evidence presented by the administration is circumstantial at best, and downright shaky or even untrue at worst.

*Why did the Bush administration take 411 days to allow an independent inquiry into the greatest security failure an attack on US soil, ever, while balking all the way. It was only the bad PR generated by all those angry bereaved family members that got that ball rolling, for what its worth.

*Even if one cannot apportion blame to any party in 9-11, it is apparent that there was an incredible amount of gross incompetence and negligence on the part of the security apparatuses and individuals within. And I am not so much talkiing about the lead up to 9-11, and the failed intel we have heard so much about. I mean what happened on the day of 9-11. So far, not a single solitary person has been fired. Nobody. Why?

*Furthermore, we have the world's most powerful military, with a nearly $0.5 Trillion annual budget, which undertakes huge logistic operations costing hundreds of $billions overseas. On the other hand, on 9-11, it couldn't, or didn't, even defend its own headquarters against a single rogue (plane) which had been roaming US airspace unopposed for nearly an hour and a half (!), until it hit the military's principle nerve center. Just suspend all preconceptions and think about it for a minute, and how and why it could have come about. It is all too bizarre.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #112 of 154
Bush = Police State. was this the idea our country was founded? Hell no it wasnt. Thats why the checks and balances but with republicans running the whole show we dont have any. meanwhile he pretends no terrorist can come across the mexican border with those 5 million illegal mexicans every year, yet he wants to take away rights liberty and freedoms of every American through the disgraceful patriot act and the bullcrap at every airport like taking off you shoes because of one F......... Idiot? How about keeping these bastards out in the first place George? The American people will boot him out for his cascade of lies & failures and ineptness. Never thought i would vote democrat. oh well. Im pulling the whole Democratic ticket after seeing how bad the Republicans are for the common man. 200 billion to get rid of Saddam while Osama is running loose? this administration are a bunch of crazy old republican zealots helping the likes of Haliburton and Enron. enough said rant over.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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post #113 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
Indeed. Though I think it may be a Hail Mary to suggest that because one administration was willing to break into an office and steal files another is willing to kill 3000 of it's own citizens.

FBI-CIA-JFK
You gotta admit there is at least a possibility that was a case of "regime change begins at home".
eye
bee
BEE
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eye
bee
BEE
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post #114 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by a10t2
The way I see it the politicians WERE the sole source of statements that Iraq was an enemy. I certainly don't recall anyone else calling for an invasion prior to the Bush/Powell song and dance.

You forget that a new perspective to ME matters was in play after 9/11. In all honesty, you must give credit that Iraq has been kept under watchful eye ever since the early 90's (and even before then). This didn't just fall out of the blue as you imply with the "Bush/Powell song and dance".

Quote:
And hindsight may be 20/20 but it seems pretty clear to me that Iraq simply wasn't a credible threat to the US, or anyone else for that matter.

The jury is not entirely in on that matter, except for those who wish to forward a political agenda that there was absolutely nothing to be concerned with here.

Quote:
My whole point with that statement is that were I a soldier killed in a "war" of dubious necessity, I know I would consider the politicians who sent me off to die more of an enemy than the Iraqi civilian who killed me.

They did not send you off to die. They sent you to do a job. The people who would kill you are not simply "civilians", either. They are combatants. People don't just "happen" to pick up a gun and start firing at armed soldiers. People don't just "happen" to drive around with a trunk full of explosives. Clearly, someone who does these things is operating under a different motive than your average "civilian".

...and don't bring up some crap about them being "freedom fighters". This particular group is certainly fighting, but they are definitely not for the "freedom" of Iraqi people at large. They are fighting to setup a local criminal regime to replace the very one that was eliminated- Saddam's regime. If that is the fate you would wish upon the Iraqi people, then by all means, the more humane alternative would have been to wipe them all out with a bombing campaign. I'm thinking you spend one week living under these supposed "freedom fighters" with the notion that that is how the rest of your life will be, I think you might be begging for death.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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post #115 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
They did not send you off to die. They sent you to do a job.

But rageous will simplify the argument down to the idea that out government "is willing to kill 3000 of it's own citizens." If rageous is going to do this, a10t2 should be able to do it as well.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #116 of 154
My guess is that one is being facetious and the other is just being a talking-points parrot.

It's also possible that one explanation does not fit all, and anyone does things for reasons entirely different from the next guy.

Think about it- if your wife sends you out to pick up a gallon of milk in town and you get hit by a drunk driver on the way, did she send you off to die? F*cking ridiculous! After a while, you just got to realize that, though a clever supposition of logic, it is rhetoric like this that only succeeds in obscuring the real issues.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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post #117 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
My guess is that one is being facetious and the other is just being a talking-points parrot.

It's also possible that one explanation does not fit all, and anyone does things for reasons entirely different from the next guy.

Think about it- if your wife sends you out to pick up a gallon of milk in town and you get hit by a drunk driver on the way, did she send you off to die? F*cking ridiculous! After a while, you just got to realize that, though a clever supposition of logic, it is rhetoric like this that only succeeds in obscuring the real issues.

She did if she made a deal with the driver.

And was the driver who was never found really drunk?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #118 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
She did if she made a deal with the driver.

And was the driver who was never found really drunk?

You have your parties mixed up. What deal are you implying? The driver was most certainly drunk, just as the "freedom fighter" is most certainly discharging a firearm that kills the coalition soldier.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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post #119 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
You have your parties mixed up. What deal are you implying? The driver was most certainly drunk, just as the "freedom fighter" is most certainly discharging a firearm that kills the coalition soldier.

Nothing that hasn't already been talked about in this thread.

The wife is Bush and the driver is Osama or Saddam. They seem to be interchangeable to Bush. I prefer Osama as he hasn't been found and this thread was talking about terrorism not Iraq ( two different things ).


I'm not saying I know this to be true of course but it's just as plausible as your overly simplistic analogy.

What were you implying?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #120 of 154
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
Think about it- if your wife sends you out to pick up a gallon of milk in town and you get hit by a drunk driver on the way, did she send you off to die?

You just compared a war to buying milk. I think we can all see how Bush could have made such a stupid mistake.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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