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Child abuse in Iraqi jails on TV  

post #1 of 123
Thread Starter 
http://pub.tv2.no/nettavisen/english/article249696.ece

Now there's video of US troops abusing children in Iraqi jails has been aired on German Television. How low can we get, courtesy of the Bush doctrine? I

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #2 of 123
How do you know what the video shows?
post #3 of 123
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
How do you know what the video shows?

I haven't seen it myself. I do not want to view images of children being attacked by burly guards, but if it's been on German television, (see link), then I would guess that lots of people in Germany have seen it.

Some more links:

http://www.swr.de/report/archiv/send...02/frames.html
http://www.swr.de/report/archiv/send...2/04070502.ram
http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/mov...es/000987.html
http://www.swr.de/report/presse/04070501.rtf
http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle6430.htm
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...307200,00.html
http://www.unicef.org/media/media_20927.html
http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2004/jul.../28revela.html
http://www.lnreview.co.uk/links/001967.php
http://www.the-signal.com/Archive/Vi...p?StoryID=4911

This stuff is all over the world, but not in our pathetic ass-licking corporate media. Liberal media...give me a goddam break.



We are being made to look like complete and total jerks....not just abusers and torturers of prisoners, which is bad enough. Now the world is seeing evidence that our troops are imprisoning and torturing kids, my blood boils, and I get sad beyond words. I dont have any children yet but imagine what parents must think when their sons and daughters are subject to this kind of treatment at the hands of "liberators". In one of the links, Rumsfeld even gave approval to the methods of torture. How long is it going to take America to rebuild our image in the world? If we are now being viewed as a "rogue nation", then lets pass the blame to where it belongs...right at the door of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, D.C.

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #4 of 123
Thread Starter 
This link describes what the Norwegian authorities saw:

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...icle823183.ece

Yikes.

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #5 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
I haven't seen it myself. I do not want to view images of children being attacked by burly guards, but if it's been on German television, (see link), then I would guess that lots of people in Germany have seen it.

Some more links:

http://www.swr.de/report/archiv/send...02/frames.html
http://www.swr.de/report/archiv/send...2/04070502.ram
http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/mov...es/000987.html
http://www.swr.de/report/presse/04070501.rtf
http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle6430.htm
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...307200,00.html
http://www.unicef.org/media/media_20927.html
http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2004/jul.../28revela.html
http://www.lnreview.co.uk/links/001967.php
http://www.the-signal.com/Archive/Vi...p?StoryID=4911

This stuff is all over the world, but not in our pathetic ass-licking corporate media. Liberal media...give me a goddam break.



We are being made to look like complete and total jerks....not just abusers and torturers of prisoners, which is bad enough. Now the world is seeing evidence that our troops are imprisoning and torturing kids, my blood boils, and I get sad beyond words. I dont have any children yet but imagine what parents must think when their sons and daughters are subject to this kind of treatment at the hands of "liberators". In one of the links, Rumsfeld even gave approval to the methods of torture. How long is it going to take America to rebuild our image in the world? If we are now being viewed as a "rogue nation", then lets pass the blame to where it belongs...right at the door of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, D.C.


Kids? It appears that we are talking about young adults, ages 15 and up. As most people know that a 15 year old can easily pass as someone much older. A 15 year old can also easily pick up a weapon and fight with the "grown-ups". So yeah, I suppose they are kids, technically, but they can be terrorists just like their fathers and uncles.

If they were abused, that was wrong, but if they took part in terrorist activities, they chose their path.
post #6 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Kids? It appears that we are talking about young adults, ages 15 and up. As most people know that a 15 year old can easily pass as someone much older. A 15 year old can also easily pick up a weapon and fight with the "grown-ups". So yeah, I suppose they are kids, technically, but they can be terrorists just like their fathers and uncles.

If they were abused, that was wrong, but if they took part in terrorist activities, they chose their path.

Weak.
post #7 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Kids? It appears that we are talking about young adults, ages 15 and up. As most people know that a 15 year old can easily pass as someone much older. A 15 year old can also easily pick up a weapon and fight with the "grown-ups". So yeah, I suppose they are kids, technically, but they can be terrorists just like their fathers and uncles.

If they were abused, that was wrong, but if they took part in terrorist activities, they chose their path.

Chilling. Evil.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
post #8 of 123
what's his signature say, something about him being a Sociopath that doesn't know right from wrong
orange you just glad?
orange you just glad?
post #9 of 123
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX

If they were abused, that was wrong, but if they took part in terrorist activities, they chose their path. [/B]

Terrorism? If *your* nation was occupied by a massively powerful foreign invader, I don't think you would take too kindly to being termed a "terrorist".
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #10 of 123
.
post #11 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
Terrorism? If *your* nation was occupied by a massively powerful foreign invader, I don't think you would take too kindly to being termed a "terrorist".

Well if they are bombing their own people to stop the formation of a representative government ... what would you call it? Freedom Fighters?
post #12 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
Weak.

No. You know what's weak? Sammi jo's anti-American, anti-military, anti-corporate, anti-Bush bullshit. That's what's weak. We're about two seconds away from Sammi jo screaming "Baby killers!, Baby Killers!".

Meanhwile, we have a "Vietnam War Hero" running for President that has admitted on video that he committed war crimes.

I HAVE seen THAT video.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
post #13 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
I haven't seen it myself. I do not want to view images of children being attacked by burly guards, but if it's been on German television, (see link), then I would guess that lots of people in Germany have seen it.

Some more links:

http://www.swr.de/report/archiv/send...02/frames.html
http://www.swr.de/report/archiv/send...2/04070502.ram
http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/mov...es/000987.html
http://www.swr.de/report/presse/04070501.rtf
http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle6430.htm
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...307200,00.html
http://www.unicef.org/media/media_20927.html
http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2004/jul.../28revela.html
http://www.lnreview.co.uk/links/001967.php
http://www.the-signal.com/Archive/Vi...p?StoryID=4911

This stuff is all over the world, but not in our pathetic ass-licking corporate media. Liberal media...give me a goddam break.



Did you read any of these links? They provide no more information that the first one you posted. It's just a repeat of the same information. All saying just about nothing.



Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
We are being made to look like complete and total jerks....not just abusers and torturers of prisoners, which is bad enough.

Yea with you're help. Your knee jerk anti-Americanism leads you to joyfully wallow in anti-American rumors that you present as proven truth.
post #14 of 123
Yeah . . . that's right . . . you hate us beating children . . . clearly you are 'Anti-American'!!!

This is the catch phrase du jour among the terminally blind.

Get a whiff of reality here folks . . . its bad enough that we have been beating prisoners, that may, or may not have been, in some way, fighting in Iraq . . .which is BENEATH the US and the America which I love, but we even seem to be beating children.

YOUR not questioning this in any fashion IS ANTI-AMERICAN
If these things are in fact going on, your allowing them to happen without comment is Anti-American,
Your allowing American values to be so degraded and distorted is Anti-American
Your unquestioned acceptance that whatever we are doing, be it possibly torturing people, including children is disgusting and straight forward Anti-American
Who would allow our reputation and our image to be so desecrated is Anti-American

And the excuses I'm reading are those of sociopaths.

The only possible defence for this is that it isn't actually happening . . . other than that, to not even second guess the possibility that it is, is disgusting . . . but not as disgusting as making excuses for it.

Let's hope that they are not real reports and that the fake reporting is merely that of Anti-Americans . . . but let us not become so enamoured of ANYTHING that displeases liberals, or that our forces are doing that we make excuses for degrading and disgusting actions that are not what our country stands for!!!!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

post #15 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
No. You know what's weak? Sammi jo's anti-American, anti-military, anti-corporate, anti-Bush bullshit.

Being so partisan that you would attempt to excuse the abuse of children because "A 15 year old can also easily pick up a weapon and fight with the "grown-ups"" is weak. It's a pathetic, thoughtless, reactionary statement to make. I'd like to think that NaplesX was suitably embarrassed once he/she sobered up.

I have never seen Sammi Jo post anything here to indicate that she hates America or the men and women who serve in America's armed forces. As for protesting the misue and mistreatment of the men and women who serve in America's armed forces or criticizing corporate greed, fraud and irresponsibility...what's bullshit about that?
post #16 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
Being so partisan that you would attempt to excuse the abuse of children because "A 15 year old can also easily pick up a weapon and fight with the "grown-ups"" is weak. It's a pathetic, thoughtless, reactionary statement to make. I'd like to think that NaplesX was suitably embarrassed once he/she sobered up.

I have never seen Sammi Jo post anything here to indicate that she hates America or the men and women who serve in America's armed forces. As for protesting the misue and mistreatment of the men and women who serve in America's armed forces or criticizing corporate greed, fraud and irresponsibility...what's bullshit about that?

God Almighty! Then you haven't been around long enough. Sammi jo doesn't hate the military memebers THEMSELVES, she hates the Big, Evil "Military-Inustrial Complex". Satan!

A 15 year old CAN and DOES participate in attacks. It was a valid point. But beyond this, sammi jo has presented her usual degree of backing for her claims, which amounts to ZERO.

As for you, pfflam, your implication is that "child abuse" and prisoner abuse are widespread happenings in the military. You have no proof of that.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
post #17 of 123
The real question is this:

Why is AQ and every other terrorist group around the world using kids to fight their battles? The parents of these kids should be ashamed. These people should be ashamed.

It is sheer foolishness to assume that because someone is yet to be considered an adult in our society, that that person couldn't possibly be a threat to your family. As it sits right now, any Arab Muslim male could be threat to you or me. Wake up.

I am so sick of all of you libs trying to sell the notion that it is intrinsically patriotic to cast aspersions. It is no longer about intellectually questioning policy, rather it is all about assuming wrong motive first then analyze later based entirely on partisan politics. What a load. be a mushroom if you wish.

At this point you lefties can only see negative, so that is what you preach. You don't even realize that your glasses are tinted, you've gotten used to it and you like it. Despite that, the rest of us are happy for the Iraqi people, knowing that they have embarked on tough yet worthwhile journey to freedom.

If you think that freedom is easy and sterile, you need to only look back at the battles that this country engaged in. Brother fought brother or father. The number of deaths make Iraq look miniscule. But thank God those battles happened. Thank God that one brother stood up to the other for freedom's sake.

War IS hell, but freedom and liberty are worth fighting and dying for. Wether it be for your family or for people you do not even know.

These "freedom fighters" as you so obviously view them - what are they fighting for, really?

Most of these people are fighting for freedom from freedom and liberty - for an extremist muslim state of affairs that once existed in Afghanistan. Think about that when you cry for terrorists to be treated fairly. When terrorists get their hands on chemical, biological, or nuclear materials, and they will, to target you or someone that you love, and they are, your tinted glass will become a bit more clear.

You people are creating an environment much like vietnam, in that you are spreading so much derision and doubt about doing the right thing that half of America now is unsure about the merits of it's own actions. Almost every interview I have read or seen or heard of an US Soldier, that soldier speaks highly of his/her mission and the good that has been accomplished there. In like manner, every interview with a returned soldier reveals that they have returned to hear falsehoods about what is actually happening in Iraq.

It won't be long, at this pace that soldiers are returning to crowds of protesters calling them "Baby Killers" and "Murderers" and who knows what else. When it happens, remember that I predicted this 6 months ago. Sammy Jo seems to be all to willing to jump on that bandwagon, right now.

We are only a couple of degrees from that right now. Think about it, based on what you see in AO right now:

If you agree that the war was needed and the results were a good thing, you are a bush loving, war mongering, Neocon sociopath. You obviously condone torture of not only terrorists, but also children. I would venture to say that an overwhelming majority of the soldiers in Iraq support the war and their commander in chief. Just going on what is stated here, they are all bush loving, war mongering, Neocon sociopaths. The leap is a small one, just like back in the day.

If bush wins another tight election, lefties will scream foul even louder and we will have Vietnam all over again. Mark these words. Even if Kerry wins you may still see it, as a result of the libs winning.

Pacifism is a band-aid, history has told us this. When will you guys learn.

But hey, that's my Bush loving, war mongering, Neocon sociopath's two cents.

Take it for what it's worth.
post #18 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Yeah . . . that's right . . . you hate us beating children . . . clearly you are 'Anti-American'!!!

This is the catch phrase du jour among the terminally blind.

Get a whiff of reality here folks . . . its bad enough that we have been beating prisoners, that may,
or may not have been, in some way, fighting in Iraq . . .which is BENEATH the US and the America which I love, but we even seem to be beating children.

Where did you read that? Not in any of the above links I'm sure. You just made it up. Making up slanderous lies about the US? Hummmmm? What could we call that?

Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
YOUR not questioning this in any fashion IS ANTI-AMERICAN

Questioning what? Alligations of something we have no information about? Yea I'll question that.

Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
If these things are in fact going on, your allowing them to happen without comment is Anti-American,

So now you admit you don't know what's going on?

Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Your allowing American values to be so degraded and distorted is Anti-American
Your unquestioned acceptance that whatever we are doing, be it possibly torturing people, including children is disgusting and straight forward Anti-American
Who would allow our reputation and our image to be so desecrated is Anti-American

So by me not lapping up every little bit of anti-american trip that SJO post I'm "allowing" all of these alleged things that we don't know what are to happen. HOW DARE I!

Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
And the excuses I'm reading are those of sociopaths.

How can we make up excuses for things that are unknown?

Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
The only possible defence for this is that it isn't actually happening . . . other than that, to not even second guess the possibility that it is, is disgusting . . . but not as disgusting as making excuses for it.

Defence for what? Alligations of things that we don't have informaiton about?

Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Let's hope that they are not real reports and that the fake reporting is merely that of Anti-Americans

Reports of what? SJO posted nothing. No details of anything. Just that someone might think that it may have been possible for something to maybe have been possible to have happened. I blame Bush!

Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
. . . but let us not become so enamoured of ANYTHING that displeases liberals, or that our forces are doing that we make excuses for degrading and disgusting actions that are not what our country stands for!!!!

You can get off the soap box now.
post #19 of 123
Alright that's about enough of that SDW. I hate America. How do you like that? I have hated it for a long time. Yeah even when Clinton was President. You know what? I live here and I hate America. I hate you. I hate most of America because they are stupid and mean, always looking to get a deal, the cheap way out, at someone else's expense, never willing to volunteer or put in more than there share. Your average American is fat and stupid. Why do even liberals always have to claim to be patriotic? That's weak. I have been thinking a lot about the concept of nationalism lately and I've decided I don't like it. It is unnecessary. Hopefully someday the whole world will be one country. Its headquarters to your and much stupid fat Americans' chagrin will probably not be in America.

NaplesX you sound like you are trying to defend torture of 15 year olds. That's sick. You're a mess man.

Disclaimer: Lots of Americans are good. Lots of people volunteer. I was a Boy Scout and I met a lot of great people that put in way more than their share. And you know what? They don't begin to account for the vast majority of stupid fat Americans that let people like Bush screw up the world. Despite all this some people keep fighting the good fight like McCain, Sanders, Jeffords, or Dean, and that's why I'm still optimistic in the long run.
"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
post #20 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX ]The real question is this:

Why is AQ and every other terrorist group around the world using kids to fight their battles? The parents of these kids should be ashamed. These people should be ashamed.

A typical head fake. "AQ and every other terrorist org" casually conflates AQ with the people of Iraq.

Quote:
It is sheer foolishness to assume that because someone is yet to be considered an adult in our society, that that person couldn't possibly be a threat to your family. As it sits right now, any Arab Muslim male could be threat to you or me. Wake up.

The article being cited talks about a 12 year old girl being attacked. We already know that the majority of Iraqis being held are not terrorists or freedom fighters or anything but people in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Quote:
I am so sick of all of you libs trying to sell the notion that it is intrinsically patriotic to cast aspersions. It is no longer about intellectually questioning policy, rather it is all about assuming wrong motive first then analyze later based entirely on partisan politics. What a load. be a mushroom if you wish.

You're sick? You would applaud the murder of infants and the torture of 5 year olds if you thought it was being decried by "liberals". You have no moral or ethical center whatsoever, as demonstrated by your posts.

Quote:
At this point you lefties can only see negative, so that is what you preach. You don't even realize that your glasses are tinted, you've gotten used to it and you like it. Despite that, the rest of us are happy for the Iraqi people, knowing that they have embarked on tough yet worthwhile journey to freedom.

You know nothing of the kind. At this point, it is only wishful thinking to assert that Iraq has embarked on anything. The idea that being horrified by behavior that demeans the stature of my country is mindless negativity is a favorite of yours, I realize, but it still isn't true. As far as I can make out, you would blow a dead horse if it was wrapped in a flag.


Quote:
If you think that freedom is easy and sterile, you need to only look back at the battles that this country engaged in. Brother fought brother or father. The number of deaths make Iraq look miniscule. But thank God those battles happened. Thank God that one brother stood up to the other for freedom's sake.

I think most of the people here that you have such contempt for are well aware that "freedom" is far more complicated than slogans and moderately good intentions. That's why we're not the ones being foolishly blithe about the prospects of freedom in Iraq.

If you are referencing the civil war, I have no idea what your point is. If not, I have no idea what your point is.

Quote:
War IS hell, but freedom and liberty are worth fighting and dying for. Wether it be for your family or for people you do not even know.

Nice of you to make this decision for strangers that you know nothing about. "Here's your freedom, it comes wrapped in blood and suffering but you have no right to refuse it. We know best. Particularly those of us safe at home."

Quote:
These "freedom fighters" as you so obviously view them - what are they fighting for, really?

Most of these people are fighting for freedom from freedom and liberty - for an extremist muslim state of affairs that once existed in Afghanistan. Think about that when you cry for terrorists to be treated fairly. When terrorists get their hands on chemical, biological, or nuclear materials, and they will, to target you or someone that you love, and they are, your tinted glass will become a bit more clear.

You don't have the faintest fucking idea what a given Iraqi is fighting for.
Again, you are assuming that anyone incarcerated by the US is a terrorist, and that they are indistinguishable from al Queda.

This thread is about a report that children as young as 12 are being abused while in American custody. Experience suggests that there is every possibility that these children are simply relatives of people rounded up for questioning. And you start talking about terrorists getting their hands on WOMD. You really can't keep it straight in your head, can you? It's all a big "bad guy" blur, which I suppose is easier than thinking and having sentient reactions.


Quote:
You people are creating an environment much like vietnam, in that you are spreading so much derision and doubt about doing the right thing that half of America now is unsure about the merits of it's own actions. Almost every interview I have read or seen or heard of an US Soldier, that soldier speaks highly of his/her mission and the good that has been accomplished there. In like manner, every interview with a returned soldier reveals that they have returned to hear falsehoods about what is actually happening in Iraq.

Oh Christ, now the fucked mission in Iraq is "the liberals" fault, just like Vietnam. You haven't read shit about shit, you're just regurgitating the desperate fall back talking points of the baby fucking right.

Quote:
It won't be long, at this pace that soldiers are returning to crowds of protesters calling them "Baby Killers" and "Murderers" and who knows what else. When it happens, remember that I predicted this 6 months ago. Sammy Jo seems to be all to willing to jump on that bandwagon, right now.

I think you may actually be brain damaged.

Quote:
We are only a couple of degrees from that right now. Think about it, based on what you see in AO right now:

If you agree that the war was needed and the results were a good thing, you are a bush loving, war mongering, Neocon sociopath. You obviously condone torture of not only terrorists, but also children. I would venture to say that an overwhelming majority of the soldiers in Iraq support the war and their commander in chief. Just going on what is stated here, they are all bush loving, war mongering, Neocon sociopaths. The leap is a small one, just like back in the day.

Given the topic of the thread, I'll let the garbled reasoning and complete contempt for the actual views expressed so far speak for themselves.

Quote:
If bush wins another tight election, lefties will scream foul even louder and we will have Vietnam all over again. Mark these words. Even if Kerry wins you may still see it, as a result of the libs winning.

OK, I'm sure your brain damaged.

Quote:
Pacifism is a band-aid, history has told us this. When will you guys learn.

Glue has long term effects on cognition. When will you learn?

Quote:
But hey, that's my Bush loving, war mongering, Neocon sociopath's two cents.

Take it for what it's worth.

Done.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
post #21 of 123
Thread Starter 
Hmmm...now it's "anti-American and unpatriotic" to protest abusing kids? I know a number of parents who would ........ (fill in the blank)
You guys want to repeal Megan's Law next?

Looks like have child abuse sympathizers on this board? Oh wait...these kids have Muslim or Arabic names...therefore they must be terrorists. Oh, I forgot, all Muslims are terrorists. Yugga yugga yugga.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #22 of 123
Quote:
As it sits right now, any Arab Muslim male could be threat to you or me. Wake up.

And this is different from everyone else that could be a threat to me? I am now supposed to go and cower in sheer ter-rar at the Current Threat of The Month ?

Quote:
If they were abused, that was wrong, but if they took part in terrorist activities, they chose their path.

Do you acutally believe in due process and innocent until proven guilty? Perhaps the (hypotheitically abused) were just obviously guilty, so the beatings could commence without further ado.
Stoo
Stoo
post #23 of 123
Nasty if true, but I would like to see a little more information to validate these claims. I think you could probably find an example of almost anything happening in a war zone. There have most likely been murders, rapes and who know what else perpetrated by every occupying army since the beginning of time. When you send a man to a foreign land with a flag and a license to kill, bad stuff will happen. War may be a necessity of our imperfect world, but it is very ugly and should always be a very last resort.
post #24 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
A 15 year old CAN and DOES participate in attacks.

Nobody who is even peripherally aware of what goes on in the world disputes that children can and do become involved in conflict situations. That doesn't excuse their being abused.


Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
As it sits right now, any Arab Muslim male could be threat to you or me. Wake up.

Wow, Just when I thought you couldn't say anything stupider or more offensive than your earlier remark trying to justify the torture of children...


Quote:
I am so sick of all of you libs trying to sell the notion that it is intrinsically patriotic to cast aspersions. It is no longer about intellectually questioning policy, rather it is all about assuming wrong motive first then analyze later based entirely on partisan politics.

Translation: "I don't like being made to think, so could all of those who do please keep their questions to themselves?"
post #25 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
Nobody who is even peripherally aware of what goes on in the world disputes that children can and do become involved in conflict situations. That doesn't excuse their being abused.


Wow, Just when I thought you couldn't say anything stupider or more offensive than your earlier remark trying to justify the torture of children...


Translation: "I don't like being made to think, so could all of those who do please keep their questions to themselves?"

I really think that you should reread my posts. I did not try to justify anything.

You are right I am the stupid one! I actually thought that being that this is an all print (although digital) communication media, that those that use it would actually read and attempt to comprehend.

My bad.
post #26 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I really think that you should reread my posts. I did not try to justify anything.

You are right I am the stupid one! I actually thought that being that this is an all print (although digital) communication media, that those that use it would actually read and attempt to comprehend.

My bad.

I think you should read your own posts.

I would have never entered this thread since I wanted to wait till I had more information about this issue . . . but the manner in which the trio of neo-cons jumped in and started yelling that its 'anti-American' to care about the abuse of a 12 year old by Americans, is simply absurd . . . .

You need to stop and think about this first: if our armed forces are doing this sort of thing, along with the more than 37 mysterious murders while in custody, and, all the documented cases of abuse, then you need to think about how THAT is Anti-American . . . against America's supposedly high moral standard

and stop making excuses for what could be, if it is true, an awful and sordid state of affairs that paints a horrible image of America and Americans.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

post #27 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
You're sick? You would applaud the murder of infants and the torture of 5 year olds if you thought it was being decried by "liberals". You have no moral or ethical center whatsoever, as demonstrated by your posts.

As far as I can make out, you would blow a dead horse if it was wrapped in a flag.

You don't have the faintest fucking idea what a given Iraqi is fighting for.

You haven't read shit about shit, you're just regurgitating the desperate fall back talking points of the baby fucking right.

I think you may actually be brain damaged.

OK, I'm sure your brain damaged.

Glue has long term effects on cognition. When will you learn?

Did I touch a nerve?

i must say that was one of the most hate filled posts I have read thus far. Although I haven't been around that long here.

Care to explain why you are directly and personally attacking me? I think if you take a breath an look at my post that I did not direst my comments to anyone in particular, except Sammy Jo, because he/she is overreacting IMO.
post #28 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
...

trio of neo-cons jumped in and started yelling that its 'anti-American' to care about the abuse of a 12 year old by Americans, is simply absurd . . . .

...

12 year old? Abused how and where and when and .... Does anyone know anything about any of it? Or do we just assume the worst off some unstated allegations?
post #29 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
I think you should read your own posts.

I would have never entered this thread since I wanted to wait till I had more information about this issue . . . but the manner in which the trio of neo-cons jumped in and started yelling that its 'anti-American' to care about the abuse of a 12 year old by Americans, is simply absurd . . . .

You need to stop and think about this first: if our armed forces are doing this sort of thing, along with the more than 37 mysterious murders while in custody, and, all the documented cases of abuse, then you need to think about how THAT is Anti-American . . . against America's supposedly high moral standard

and stop making excuses for what could be, if it is true, an awful and sordid state of affairs that paints a horrible image of America and Americans.

Look back, I challange you to find a point in time that I said abuse is OK by me. Go on!

I have a 12 year old girl! If someone touched her I would be fit to be tied. However, I am a responsible father and I teach her to respect every human life and that her every action and choice has consequences or rewards, dependent mostly on on those choices. Think about that for a few seconds before you jump all over me. My daughter is her own person at twelve, I have pathetically little control over what she does when she is not in my sight. The only influence I might have is the years of training and good example that I have tried to give her. Think about that for a few.

The responsibility for the girl that you bring up is in the hands of her parents, unless you are saying that some soldiers had some spare time and an extra cell and wanted to have some fun. And if that is the case (read carefully) they should be SHOT.

Once again, I challenge you to go back and find where I have said that any abuse is OK.

Hint: You will have to dig through the many statements I have made condemning such behavior.
post #30 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Once again, I challenge you to go back and find where I have said that any abuse is OK.

Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
If they were abused, that was wrong, but if they took part in terrorist activities, they chose their path.
post #31 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
You people are creating an environment much like vietnam, in that you are spreading so much derision and doubt about doing the right thing that half of America now is unsure about the merits of it's own actions. Almost every interview I have read or seen or heard of an US Soldier, that soldier speaks highly of his/her mission and the good that has been accomplished there. In like manner, every interview with a returned soldier reveals that they have returned to hear falsehoods about what is actually happening in Iraq.

See, people have this habit of first acting and then rationalizing their actions. The more serious the action, the more they need to believe in that there is no alternative. Thus, on the average soldiers have a huge bias. This bias is compounded in a professional army, like the US has, because every service member has joined up voluntarily and would (in his own eyes) be a fool if he didn't believe in whatever the army is doing after he himself has made the choice. If you look at Israel, for instance, you will see a great amount of army personnel are vocal in the peace movement.

Maybe I'm reading too much into your post, but do you think the Vietnam War was necessary and should have continued beyond the 5-6 million dead where it was stopped? Exactly what was the objective that should have been accomplished there?
post #32 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod

You missed the part where I said it was wrong and the two "ifs" that are in that quote.

Try again.
post #33 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
You missed the part where I said it was wrong and the two "ifs" that are in that quote.

Try again.

Either stand by your statement or rescind it...don't try to weasel out of it by claiming that you have been misunderstood. You say that these children 'chose their path.' I don't see how this can be construed as anything other than an attempt to place the blame for the abuses that they may have experienced with anyone but the perpetrators.
post #34 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
Either stand by your statement or rescind it...don't try to weasel out of it by claiming that you have been misunderstood. You say that these children 'chose their path.' I don't see how this can be construed as anything other than an attempt to place the blame for the abuses that they may have experienced with anyone but the perpetrators.

Is english a second language for you? If it is then you have a valid excuse for not understanding a clearly stated and carefully written sentence.

I stand by the statements that I made. Read it again if you can't quite get it. There were two statements inside that one sentence.
post #35 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by Gon
See, people have this habit of first acting and then rationalizing their actions. The more serious the action, the more they need to believe in that there is no alternative. Thus, on the average soldiers have a huge bias. This bias is compounded in a professional army, like the US has, because every service member has joined up voluntarily and would (in his own eyes) be a fool if he didn't believe in whatever the army is doing after he himself has made the choice. If you look at Israel, for instance, you will see a great amount of army personnel are vocal in the peace movement.

Maybe I'm reading too much into your post, but do you think the Vietnam War was necessary and should have continued beyond the 5-6 million dead where it was stopped? Exactly what was the objective that should have been accomplished there?

Great points, really.

We all should question our actions. This can only improve the future.

The problem with the situation right now is that people have taken it beyond just saying "Is this war doing any good?" to "See, bad things are happening, Bush is a liar.".

This is very dangerous in the middle of a war. It has gone far beyond criticizing a president's policies. Many here are blaming every bad thing that has happened for 3 years on the Commander-in-chief of this current war. I don't know how anyone can spin that as being a good thing. I would say that it may tend to give the enemy some ammo for the propaganda war. It at least makes it easier for them when a chunk of the populace is giving the enemy material to work with.

I let my kids sit down and watch "Tears of the Sun", something that I don't do too often. I don't want to expose them to needless violence. But there were some powerful messages in the movie and I knew it would bring out some questions from my kids. They did not disappoint me. There is a scene where the marines go in and totally wipe out a squad of goons in the act massacring a village. The scene is gruesome and there is a whole lot of killing. I had to stop the movie at this point and discuss it with my kids. It was a very interesting conversation to say the least. But I think it relates to the current war in a number of ways.

Anyway... There is no doubt in my mind that soldiers that have seen "action" sue for peace at every opportunity.

As far as Vietnam goes, many in the know feel that the US was winning that war and would have won if politics was left out of the running of that war.

It just seems that we should have learned from that. Let the military do it's job and WIN the WAR! Change policy after it is done. It is just much more cost effective, in any number of ways.
post #36 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
As far as Vietnam goes, many in the know feel that the US was winning that war and would have won if politics was left out of the running of that war.



War with no politics. Classic.

Hell, vietnam and no politics

And through all that, your post doesn't even seem to have a coherent point.

Oh, and "win" a war against an insurgency

What do you expect, the whole country to just come out of the jungle (or desert) and say, "OK, we give up?"

War is politics. Military force is just one small, though very visible and dramatic, element.
post #37 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
As far as Vietnam goes, many in the know feel that the US was winning that war and would have won if politics was left out of the running of that war.

It just seems that we should have learned from that. Let the military do it's job and WIN the WAR! Change policy after it is done. It is just much more cost effective, in any number of ways.

See, that's just what I tried to ask you. What would have constituted a "win" in Vietnam? What do you mean by "win"?

As for the latter, is anyone claiming that the troops are to blame for starting the war? Are there many people in US saying that military funding should be cut to make them lose the fight? Are there many people claiming that the US military will have significant losses and fare poorly in actual fighting? I just don't see that happening. I see the world's most powerful military that is able to cause plenty of death and destruction with very little losses of its own - this is self-evident and arguments to the contrary just do not carry any weight. I see people question the politicians' motives, the reasons for the war. I see people who think the military should be a defense force, used only to repel a threat of violence, not to advance economic interests of a small number of corporations by violence.

The way most peace activists and military men think, I guess, is that the best way to support soldiers fighting an unnecessary war is to pull them out before more of them suffer. There are very few who *gain* from wars. I would be extremely wary of those few.
post #38 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Great points, really.

We all should question our actions. This can only improve the future.

The problem with the situation right now is that people have taken it beyond just saying "Is this war doing any good?" to "See, bad things are happening, Bush is a liar.".

This is very dangerous in the middle of a war. It has gone far beyond criticizing a president's policies. Many here are blaming every bad thing that has happened for 3 years on the Commander-in-chief of this current war. I don't know how anyone can spin that as being a good thing. I would say that it may tend to give the enemy some ammo for the propaganda war. It at least makes it easier for them when a chunk of the populace is giving the enemy material to work with.

I let my kids sit down and watch "Tears of the Sun", something that I don't do too often. I don't want to expose them to needless violence. But there were some powerful messages in the movie and I knew it would bring out some questions from my kids. They did not disappoint me. There is a scene where the marines go in and totally wipe out a squad of goons in the act massacring a village. The scene is gruesome and there is a whole lot of killing. I had to stop the movie at this point and discuss it with my kids. It was a very interesting conversation to say the least. But I think it relates to the current war in a number of ways.

Anyway... There is no doubt in my mind that soldiers that have seen "action" sue for peace at every opportunity.

As far as Vietnam goes, many in the know feel that the US was winning that war and would have won if politics was left out of the running of that war.

It just seems that we should have learned from that. Let the military do it's job and WIN the WAR! Change policy after it is done. It is just much more cost effective, in any number of ways.

You make these huge statements about what we think . . . but apparently you never actually look at the specifics of what each of us has to say.

Then

you simply dismiss the whole kit and kabootle and decide that any criticism is close to treason 'in a time of war'.

Give me a break . . I have said numerous times that Bush was doing good things when he was . . . . but unfortunately, the majority of those 'good things' were after the very major 'Bad thing' and were all attempts to make the resulting bad things not happen . . .

And this idiotic line about Vietnam!!!! I have nutcase relatives that think that . . and, in all seriousness, they whisper "we shulda used nukes" . . . just stop and make that connection!! . . . they believe the 'politics lost the war' bullshit, while really wanting to have used nukes against the NVietnamese
If that doesn't tell you something about the kind of reasoning that believes that 'politics' lie then I don't know what else to say . . .
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

post #39 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
I have nutcase relatives that think that . . and, in all seriousness, they whisper "we shulda used nukes" . . . just stop and make that connection!! . . . they believe the 'politics lost the war' bullshit, while really wanting to have used nukes against the NVietnamese

But don't both naples and your relatives have it totally wrong?!

The argument, as I am familiar with it, was that counter-insurgency tactics had just matured and had they been continued, we would have gained control of the country.

Not only is that argument total BS, but all three of the arguments also demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of the conflict from top to bottom.
post #40 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
As it sits right now, any Arab Muslim male could be threat to you or me. Wake up.

OMG!!!! I really hope you're gonna get banned for saying such racist crap! So basically, every Arab Muslim is a terrorist and is taught to hijack planes, that's it...?

Well then, since the Columbine shooting a few years ago was perpetrated by Protestant Americans, then, every Protestant American is a threat for me.
Oh well, and what about the IRA? Of course, that must mean that every single European Catholic is a terrorist too!!

See, waking up!
Basically everything goes round. We're 80% dinosaur.
-- Alex James
Basically everything goes round. We're 80% dinosaur.
-- Alex James
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