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post #41 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by The One to Rescue
OMG!!!! I really hope you're gonna get banned for saying such racist crap! So basically, every Arab Muslim is a terrorist and is taught to hijack planes, that's it...?

Well then, since the Columbine shooting a few years ago was perpetrated by Protestant Americans, then, every Protestant American is a threat for me.
Oh well, and what about the IRA? Of course, that must mean that every single European Catholic is a terrorist too!!

See, waking up!

Really . . I can't believe this guy.

And he wears it on his sig like he's proud of it . . . . but I think he doesn't really understand what it means.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

post #42 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Really . . I can't believe this guy.

And he wears it on his sig like he's proud of it . . . . but I think he doesn't really understand what it means.

Think I understood...
Not sure you did though : what I said was that if every Arab Muslim is a potential threat, then virtually everyone is a potential threat!
But maybe you can give me further explanation on what you said...
Basically everything goes round. We're 80% dinosaur.
-- Alex James
Basically everything goes round. We're 80% dinosaur.
-- Alex James
post #43 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by The One to Rescue
Think I understood...
Not sure you did though : what I said was that if every Arab Muslim is a potential threat, then virtually everyone is a potential threat!
But maybe you can give me further explanation on what you said...

I was agreeing with you . . . I was referring to NaplesX . . the person who you were responding to.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

post #44 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by The One to Rescue
Think I understood...
Not sure you did though : what I said was that if every Arab Muslim is a potential threat, then virtually everyone is a potential threat!
But maybe you can give me further explanation on what you said...

Are you directing the question to me? You replied to him but you seem to ask the question of me?
post #45 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I stand by the statements that I made. Read it again if you can't quite get it. There were two statements inside that one sentence.

And it's the second statement I have a problem with. The one where you indicate that you feel any abuse the children in question may have experienced was brought upon themselves.

It's particularly nasty in light of your later statement about having a child of your own of a similar age.
post #46 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
I was agreeing with you . . . I was referring to NaplesX . . the person who you were responding to.

Oops, major screw up!!! That's what happen when someone whose English is not perfect gets a little angry and tries to read messages too fast and misinterprets them!
Sorry pfflam!
Basically everything goes round. We're 80% dinosaur.
-- Alex James
Basically everything goes round. We're 80% dinosaur.
-- Alex James
post #47 of 123
In Other News, it's fairly obvious there's no mods online tonight.
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post #48 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Did I touch a nerve?

i must say that was one of the most hate filled posts I have read thus far. Although I haven't been around that long here.

Care to explain why you are directly and personally attacking me? I think if you take a breath an look at my post that I did not direst my comments to anyone in particular, except Sammy Jo, because he/she is overreacting IMO.

I am directly and personally attacking you because you profess a philosophy that is so without simple human compassion, imagination or logic that I react in much the same way that I would if I came across a man beating his dog. Angrily, on behalf of what is decent.

I choose not to hide behind such formulations as "all you conservatives", so that I can pretend that I speak to no one in particular.

You have repeatedly argued strenuously in favor of murdering civilians, torturing inmates, waging indiscriminate and wildly disproportionate war, and now, abusing incarcerated children.

In every case you have justified your reflexive brutality by talking about "terrorism", "al Qaeda", "freedom", and "patriotism".

You live in a fantasy world where the very act of abusing a person makes them a "terrorist", and therefore not entitled to basic human rights. In your mind, everyone who finds themselves in an Iraqi prison is perforce an enemy of America who deserves whatever they have coming, despite having your attention repeatedly directed to the fact that military commanders in Iraq admit that most of these people are either common criminals or simply people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

You either deliberately, or as the result of some cognitive disorder, refuse to make a distinction between the Iraqi people and "global terrorism/al Qaeda/the gun to America's head" and proceed from there to treat every objection to the abuse of the Iraqi people as an endorsement of the destruction of America.

When called upon it, you profess your innocence and mild heart, until the next time you start spewing your repellent madness.

You say my previous post was "hate filled". I say that explicit expressions of barbarism deserve to be rebuked without reservation.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
post #49 of 123
addabox:
Pretty stong stuff, even for AO, but I can't say I disagree with anything you are saying.
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BEE
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post #50 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
http://pub.tv2.no/nettavisen/english/article249696.ece

Now there's video of US troops abusing children in Iraqi jails has been aired on German Television. How low can we get, courtesy of the Bush doctrine?

Sammy please tell me what your definition of the Bush doctrine is?
Thanks
post #51 of 123
This thread is temporary closed. Me or others mods will analyse it content seriously and take the necessary actions.
post #52 of 123
1) Naples X : I will not tolerate this racist comment :

Quote:
. As it sits right now, any Arab Muslim male could be threat to you or me. Wake up.

2) Aquatic : I will not tolerate that silly comments either :
Quote:
I hate America. How do you like that? I have hated it for a long time. Yeah even when Clinton was President. You know what? I live here and I hate America. I hate you. I hate most of America because they are stupid and mean, always looking to get a deal, the cheap way out, at someone else's expense, never willing to volunteer or put in more than there share. Your average American is fat and stupid

3) For others. You are not supposed to turn into avengers. If you have something to do, PM a mod, like one of the member did. Things are sufficiently heated on political threads, adding fuel on the fire is not needed.

This thread is re-open. Let's expect that people calmed down this night.
post #53 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
I am directly and personally attacking you because you profess a philosophy that is so without simple human compassion, imagination or logic that I react in much the same way that I would if I came across a man beating his dog. Angrily, on behalf of what is decent.

I choose not to hide behind such formulations as "all you conservatives", so that I can pretend that I speak to no one in particular.

You have repeatedly argued strenuously in favor of murdering civilians, torturing inmates, waging indiscriminate and wildly disproportionate war, and now, abusing incarcerated children.

In every case you have justified your reflexive brutality by talking about "terrorism", "al Qaeda", "freedom", and "patriotism".

You live in a fantasy world where the very act of abusing a person makes them a "terrorist", and therefore not entitled to basic human rights. In your mind, everyone who finds themselves in an Iraqi prison is perforce an enemy of America who deserves whatever they have coming, despite having your attention repeatedly directed to the fact that military commanders in Iraq admit that most of these people are either common criminals or simply people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

You either deliberately, or as the result of some cognitive disorder, refuse to make a distinction between the Iraqi people and "global terrorism/al Qaeda/the gun to America's head" and proceed from there to treat every objection to the abuse of the Iraqi people as an endorsement of the destruction of America.

When called upon it, you profess your innocence and mild heart, until the next time you start spewing your repellent madness.

You say my previous post was "hate filled". I say that explicit expressions of barbarism deserve to be rebuked without reservation.

ABUSING CHILDREN IS BAD, VARY BAD.

Although I think your "righteous indignation" is a bit "hollywood", I am sure that you think you are justified in being so over the top.

I have never argued "strenuously" for any of the things you mention. That, sir is a lie. I hope that you would not traffic in lies, it puts any credibility you have in jeopordy. I have, however argued against the ever-popular knee-jerking that goes on here, as abundantly demonstrated in this thread.

A think most people can easily see that I do not hide anything here. I came into these forums as who I am - something that cannot be said of some here. What exactly would you say I am hiding from?

As far as the "formulations" you accuse me of hiding behind, what would you call the dreaded "Bush doctrine" that is repeatedly mentioned here? Among others.

ABUSING CHILDREN IS BAD, VARY BAD.

I have never and would never:

Beat a dog, rape anyone, abuse incarcerated children, or even ever think about doing such things, but if you must direct your hate at me, it's OK. I won't take it personally. However if your odium has reached such a level with me, I can't imagine the outrage toward people that have actually committed these types of crimes:

"raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side" all thing that presumptive nominee and Senator Kerry admitted to being complacent about, he talked about "awareness of officers at all levels of command.", which he was a part. You must be very upset with him, no?

Your english comprehension is obviously not your strong suit, so I will not hold that against you either. I have not put forth the bile that you are attributing to me. You simply have made things up and drawn conclusion based on your own made up facts.

Demonize, marginalize, and if that fails, call names. Predictable.

Oh yeah did I mention, ABUSING CHILDREN IS BAD, VARY BAD.

BTW, after all of this anger and outrage and platitudes, do we even know if these reports are anything more than cosmic vapor?
post #54 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
1) Naples X : I will not tolerate this racist comment :



2) Aquatic : I will not tolerate that silly comments either :


3) For others. You are not supposed to turn into avengers. If you have something to do, PM a mod, like one of the member did. Things are sufficiently heated on political threads, adding fuel on the fire is not needed.

This thread is re-open. Let's expect that people calmed down this night.

My comment was not racist. Right now, the biggest threat to US and it's allies, military and economic, is radical Islamic terrorists. This group is made up of primarily Arab Muslim males. This is not a racist observation. To ignore that is folly IMO.

I should have said "potential" threat, because that is what I meant.
post #55 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
My comment was not racist. Right now, the biggest threat to US and it's allies, military and economic, is radical Islamic terrorists. This group is made up of primarily Arab Muslim males. This is not a racist observation. To ignore that is folly IMO.

I should have said "potential" threat, because that is what I meant.

Happy to see that you are not racist. But your comment was. If you said any radical islamist is a potential threat, I would have agree, but when you bring the suspicion upon a whole human group based upon skin and religion, it's a racist comment. And more it's not totally accurate, some good white people converted to radical islam, where members of Al Quaeda.
Next time, be more precise with your wording.
post #56 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
My comment was not racist ... This group is made up of primarily Arab Muslim males. This is not a racist observation.

What ethnicity is Richard Reid?

What ethnicity is Jose Padilla?

What ethnicity are likely most of the people in guantanamo?

Not to mention that the vast majority of muslims are not arab.
post #57 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
What ethnicity is Richard Reid?

What ethnicity is Jose Padilla?

What ethnicity are likely most of the people in guantanamo?

Not to mention that the vast majority of muslims are not arab.

I specifically used the word "primarily". It does not indicate totality, but it does indicate that there are other smaller parts of that whole. You are smarter than that aren't you?
post #58 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I specifically used the word "primarily". It does not indicate totality, but it does indicate that there are other smaller parts of that whole. You are smarter than that aren't you?

Well, muslims worldwide are not "primarily" arab, US muslims are not "primarily" arab, terrorist attacks against the US have not "primarily" been perpetrated by arabs and arab males are not "primarily" terrorists.

So how does your racist comment have any validity?
post #59 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Well, muslims worldwide are not "primarily" arab, US muslims are not "primarily" arab, terrorist attacks against the US have not "primarily" been perpetrated by arabs and arab males are not "primarily" terrorists.

So how does your racist comment have any validity?

Well I did not claim any of those things, so I am not sure how I can defend something I did NOT say.

My comment was an observation. Let's break it down.

A current serious threat is Islamic Terrorists, right? These people are muslim, right? The majority of those terrorists are male, right? A large chunk of those males are of Arabic (ME) descent, right?

Thus Arab Muslim male.

let's say you were in a room with a group of 5 people. You knew one was a terrorists.

person one - a white male Amish man. About 45 or so.

person two - a hispanic female about 30 something.

person three - a black male Jehovah's Witness age 25 or so.

person four - a dark skinned man with a ME accent in his early 20's wearing a a heavy jacket reading from the Koran.

person five - an oriental man in a business suit.

if the terrorist is not you, then who would you hedge your bets against? Who will you keep your eye on most?

I know that many of you will jump on me for this, saying it is racist. It is not, because, you can tall a lot about a person just at first glance. This is based on experiences that each of us have. It is a survival mechanism. Many times those judgments are proven wrong after further observations or info.

It is much harder to discern someone's intentions, simply from visual cues. What is the look of a radical islamic terrorist? Could be anyone. But there are facts "on the ground" as they say, that might help you discern who to be wary of.

Those are the facts.

But you will notice that I did not say that muslims were evil or inferior in anyway or subhuman. That would be racist. The overwhelming majority of muslims interpret their religion in a way that peacefully coexists with the rest of the world. Muslims are like you and me. Terrorists are not.

It is wise to know who your enemy is and how to identify them, no? Correct me if I am wrong, terrorist are the enemy.
post #60 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
if the terrorist is not you, then who would you hedge your bets against? Who will you keep your eye on most?

I'm not a racist and I am aware of the facts (see below), so race wouldn't be a factor in that decision.

As already pointed out:
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
What ethnicity is Richard Reid?

What ethnicity is Jose Padilla?

What ethnicity are likely most of the people in guantanamo?

In terms of terrorism against the us in recent years, we have the recent non-arab american found with chemical weapons, we have the OKC bombing done by white men, and we have WTC 93 by someone who is likely pakistani.

Let Bush's trans secretary run down a couple more examples of terrorists:

Quote:
In 1986, a 32-year-old Irish woman, pregnant at the time, was about to board an El Al flight from London to Tel Aviv when El Al security agents discovered an explosive device hidden in the false bottom of her bag. The womans boyfriend the father of her unborn child had hidden the bomb.

In 1987, a 70-year-old man and a 25-year-old woman neither of whom were Middle Eastern posed as father and daughter and brought a bomb aboard a Korean Air flight from Baghdad to Thailand. En route to Bangkok, the bomb exploded, killing all on board.

In 1999, men dressed as businessmen (and one dressed as a Catholic priest) turned out to be terrorist hijackers, who forced an Avianca flight to divert to an airstrip in Colombia, where some passengers were held as hostages for more than a year-and-half.

Time permits me to cite only these few examples; there are many more.

So, how do we stop the terrorist say one recruited from Chechnya who is disguised as a priest if we are wasting our time on an unworkable profile of thousands of travelers who look a certain way?

There is no universal racial, age or gender profile for terrorism -- and we cannot pretend that there is.

http://www.dot.gov/affairs/042002sp.htm

As far as al-qaeda is concerned, there is probably no real info on its ethnic makeup. However, we know that muslims from all over europe and asia (from afghanistan all the way to indonesia) are some of the strongest participants and that individuals from all over the world and of all ethnicities have gone to training camps.

Pinning any terrorist threat, including terrorism supposedly in the name of islam, on "arab males" is racist and ignorant.
post #61 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
let's say you were in a room with a group of 5 people. You knew one was a terrorists.

person one - a white male Amish man. About 45 or so.

person two - a hispanic female about 30 something.

person three - a black male Jehovah's Witness age 25 or so.

person four - a dark skinned man with a ME accent in his early 20's wearing a a heavy jacket reading from the Koran.

person five - an oriental man in a business suit.

if the terrorist is not you, then who would you hedge your bets against? Who will you keep your eye on most?

I'd kill the 5 people, so that I'm sure I don't make a mistake in betting!
Ok... that was silly, sorry!

No seriously, we are humans, not animals! Survival mechanisms might be (barely) ok in war time, but in every other case, that's pure paranoia!
Basically everything goes round. We're 80% dinosaur.
-- Alex James
Basically everything goes round. We're 80% dinosaur.
-- Alex James
post #62 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Well I did not claim any of those things, so I am not sure how I can defend something I did NOT say.

My comment was an observation. Let's break it down.

A current serious threat is Islamic Terrorists, right? These people are muslim, right? The majority of those terrorists are male, right? A large chunk of those males are of Arabic (ME) descent, right?

Thus Arab Muslim male.

let's say you were in a room with a group of 5 people. You knew one was a terrorists.

person one - a white male Amish man. About 45 or so.

person two - a hispanic female about 30 something.

person three - a black male Jehovah's Witness age 25 or so.

person four - a dark skinned man with a ME accent in his early 20's wearing a a heavy jacket reading from the Koran.

person five - an oriental man in a business suit.

if the terrorist is not you, then who would you hedge your bets against? Who will you keep your eye on most?

I know that many of you will jump on me for this, saying it is racist. It is not, because, you can tall a lot about a person just at first glance. This is based on experiences that each of us have. It is a survival mechanism. Many times those judgments are proven wrong after further observations or info.

It is much harder to discern someone's intentions, simply from visual cues. What is the look of a radical islamic terrorist? Could be anyone. But there are facts "on the ground" as they say, that might help you discern who to be wary of.

Those are the facts.

But you will notice that I did not say that muslims were evil or inferior in anyway or subhuman. That would be racist. The overwhelming majority of muslims interpret their religion in a way that peacefully coexists with the rest of the world. Muslims are like you and me. Terrorists are not.

It is wise to know who your enemy is and how to identify them, no? Correct me if I am wrong, terrorist are the enemy.

you've said enough.

Nothing worse than listening to the convoluted justifications and denials that usually accompany the self-deception of an unquestioned racism.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

post #63 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
As it sits right now, any Arab Muslim male could be threat to you or me. Wake up.

Oh look. He said this.

This includes the guy in the Halal Tennessee Fried Chicken and Ribs shop on Church Street then. And my friend Nabil the television actor, presumably.
post #64 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Oh look. He said this.

This includes the guy in the Halal Tennessee Fried Chicken and Ribs shop on Church Street then. And my friend Nabil the television actor, presumably.

http://www.cp.org/premium/ONLINE/mem.../p062105A.html

This article points out that AQ is picking young boys and getting them started early-Ibrahim bin Abdullah al-Dreiham started his documented killing at 19.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Ar...393385,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...177325,00.html
http://www.likud.nl/extr257.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/2071561.stm
http://inhonor.net/videos/uped/fl_video.php?f_num=58900
http://inhonor.net/videos/uped/fl_video.php?f_num=74500
http://inhonor.net/videos/uped/fl_video.php?f_num=54200
http://inhonor.net/videos/uped/fl_video.php?f_num=52500
http://www.poe-news.com/stories.php?poeurlid=10831
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0401/p07s01-wome.html

There is no magic age that you are restricted from being a terrorist, apparently. So I am not sure why anyone would want to put on age based blinders to the problem.

Terrorist were thought to be nice people by their neighbors:

He was just a big teddy bear honourable and very polite a well-liked and respected pupil: those are some of the depictions of Asif Hanif, a Briton of Pakistan origins who blew himself up in a Tel Aviv pub, killing three.

He was smart, clever and kind, a really nice boy. Thats Zacarias Moussaoui, sometimes known as 9/11s twentieth hijacker, as described by his older brother.

He was the nicest guy. He didnt mess with anybody, said Iyman Fariss former employer right after Faris, an Ohio trucker of Pakistani origins, had pleaded guilty to providing material support to terrorists and conspiracy to provide support. Fariss stepson spoke endearingly of his stepfathers very good sense of humor.

Just a normal, good-natured young man who dreamed of a family of his own, whose young adult years in [Florida] were filled with driving children to school, buying groceries and taking college courses. Thats the Miami Herald paraphrasing his family talking about Adnan Gulshair ElShukri-jumah, a Florida-raised Saudi suspected of being an Al-Qaeda member who helped with 9/11, and someone the FBI considers a very, very, very serious threat.

She was an educated person, concerned with educating people about Islam. She here is Aafia Siddiqui as portrayed by her imam, a Pakistani woman sought for questioning about ties to Al-Qaeda.

Friendly and charming a kind person, someone beloved by villagers for offering free health checks and cheap medicine; thats how a religious leader described Waemahadi Wae-dao, a medical doctor arrested on charges of planning to bomb embassies and tourist spots in Thailand.

http://www.americandaily.com/article/2411

On the FBI's most wanted terrorist page: http://www.fbi.gov/mostwant/terrorists/fugitives.htm , 4 out of the 22 are not from ME countries.

Some lists of Arab terrorist groups:

http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israel...ror-Groups.asp
http://avpv.tripod.com/terror-groups.html
http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php...ups&file=index

Draw your own conclusions, I still stick by mine.
post #65 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
There is no magic age that you are restricted from being a terrorist, apparently. So I am not sure why anyone would want to put on age based blinders to the problem.

For fuck's sake. What is being said (by several people) in this thread is NOT "these kids were only 15, they couldn't be involved in the conflict". What IS being said is: Terrorist, guerilla, insurgent, freedom fighter, soldier (or whatever term your point of view requires you to use to refer to the people who are fighting the US troops in Iraq)...nothing excuses the abuse and torture of children. Nothing. You eventually even said this yourself.

So where does this "age based blinders" shit come from?
post #66 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Draw your own conclusions, I still stick by mine.

Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
if the terrorist is not you, then who would you hedge your bets against? Who will you keep your eye on most?

I'm not a racist and I am aware of the facts (see below), so race wouldn't be a factor in that decision.

As already pointed out:
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
What ethnicity is Richard Reid?

What ethnicity is Jose Padilla?

What ethnicity are likely most of the people in guantanamo?

In terms of terrorism against the us in recent years, we have the recent non-arab american found with chemical weapons, we have the OKC bombing done by white men, and we have WTC 93 by someone who is likely pakistani.

Let Bush's trans secretary run down a couple more examples of terrorists:

Quote:
In 1986, a 32-year-old Irish woman, pregnant at the time, was about to board an El Al flight from London to Tel Aviv when El Al security agents discovered an explosive device hidden in the false bottom of her bag. The womans boyfriend the father of her unborn child had hidden the bomb.

In 1987, a 70-year-old man and a 25-year-old woman neither of whom were Middle Eastern posed as father and daughter and brought a bomb aboard a Korean Air flight from Baghdad to Thailand. En route to Bangkok, the bomb exploded, killing all on board.

In 1999, men dressed as businessmen (and one dressed as a Catholic priest) turned out to be terrorist hijackers, who forced an Avianca flight to divert to an airstrip in Colombia, where some passengers were held as hostages for more than a year-and-half.

Time permits me to cite only these few examples; there are many more.

So, how do we stop the terrorist say one recruited from Chechnya who is disguised as a priest if we are wasting our time on an unworkable profile of thousands of travelers who look a certain way?

There is no universal racial, age or gender profile for terrorism -- and we cannot pretend that there is.


... Some advocates of racial profiling have also focused their attention on what they consider unnecessary searches of people who appear to be innocent -- elderly women, pregnant women, people traveling with children, priests, or even politicians.

Why subject a gray-haired grandmother to extra security screening? Because terrorists do not always look like todays prevailing stereotype. And, because one does not have to look like a stereotypical terrorist to be used by terrorists.

http://www.dot.gov/affairs/042002sp.htm

As far as al-qaeda is concerned, there is probably no real info on its ethnic makeup. However, we know that muslims from all over europe and asia (from afghanistan all the way to indonesia) are some of the strongest participants and that individuals from all over the world and of all ethnicities have gone to training camps.

Pinning any terrorist threat, including terrorism supposedly in the name of islam, on "arab males" is racist and ignorant.

Maybe if you let us know which words here you are having trouble with we can let you know what they mean.
post #67 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
For fuck's sake. What is being said (by several people) in this thread is NOT "these kids were only 15, they couldn't be involved in the conflict". What IS being said is: Terrorist, guerilla, insurgent, freedom fighter, soldier (or whatever term your point of view requires you to use to refer to the people who are fighting the US troops in Iraq)...nothing excuses the abuse and torture of children. Nothing. You eventually even said this yourself.

So where does this "age based blinders" shit come from?

Agreed. Abuse is not a tactic that any of us prescribe to.

The problem, is that any use of force is considered abuse. And we are not even talking about proven abuse, just alleged abuse, without any definitions as to what the abuse is.

SJO's original post dripped with anger over some reports that really had no substance. Could it happen, sure. Did it? Who knows right now, And the use of "kids" is just another attempt to make the US and its military seem barbaric. Apparently some jumped on that bandwagon.

Once again, if true it is bad, but we don't know any details and I for one don't bite.

Murder is murder and terrorism is terrorism independent of the age of the perp. Of course we are all speculating upon speculation and rumor. These so called kids may not even exist.
post #68 of 123
Torture has so many faces...

Shock & Awe

It's no boy's life in no man's land

America's criminal occupation

Not hanging around and not willing to deal with the neo-con idiots here or the PC-centric moderators. Thought I'd pass this along and hope this will finally ban me, remove my post (as they did with my last one) and lock this worthless thread.

Goodbye asshats, you know who you are.
I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
post #69 of 123
Are there any other links to the original story that started this thread? Have any other media reported it?
post #70 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
http://www.cp.org/premium/ONLINE/mem.../p062105A.html

This article points out that AQ is picking young boys and getting them started early-Ibrahim bin Abdullah al-Dreiham started his documented killing at 19.

You can join the military at 18.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

post #71 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by Beige_G3
Are there any other links to the original story that started this thread? Have any other media reported it?

Abuses of this nature have been reported for some time:
Quote:
Rumsfeld said that he had not actually looked at any of the Abu Ghraib photographs until some of them appeared in press accounts, and hadnt reviewed the Armys copies until the day before. When he did, they were hard to believe, he said. There are other photos that depict . . . acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel, and inhuman. Later, he said, Its going to get still more terrible, Im afraid. Rumsfeld added, I failed to recognize how important it was.

NBC News later quoted U.S. military officials as saying that the unreleased photographs showed American soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi prisoner, and acting inappropriately with a dead body. The officials said there also was a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040517fa_fact2
post #72 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by Beige_G3
Are there any other links to the original story that started this thread? Have any other media reported it?

Good question . . . hopefully it was all wrong to begin with.

But as far as all the "he was such a nice guy" quotes from NapleX . . .

hell, that sounds like a newspaper report after your basic serial killer was arrested . . . it tells us NOTHING . . .

and of course we know that many of the 'insurgents' as well as 'terrorists' are young . . . but that IN NO WAY excuses teh tirture of a 12 year old . . . if it happens . . or torture in general

Allowing torture is a moral slippery slope; as soon as you allow it the boundaries as to when it is applicable get blurry . . next thing you know Democrats will be consdered 'enemy of the state', like Stern being the'enemy of Texas' ;-) -
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

post #73 of 123
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
[

SJO's original post dripped with anger over some reports that really had no substance. Could it happen, sure. Did it? Who knows right now, And the use of "kids" is just another attempt to make the US and its military seem barbaric. Apparently some jumped on that bandwagon.

NaplesX: Look at the article: This stuff was seen on mainstream German television. You cannot condemn something on the grounds that it hasn't appeared on the US corporate media, most of which is sympathetic to the Bush Administration's position anyway. At some point this stuff will come out, although it may take awhile. And yes, my post was dripping with anger. The torture and abuse of children in my bleeding-heart-liberal opinion is so far out of order it defies all reason. Perhaps the Pentagon and BushCorp in their selective "war on the terrorists that they disapprove of feels differently. Their attitude towards all this kind of stuff reminds me of that of the Vatican towards pedophilia in the Roman Catholic priesthood.

edit: spelling errors!
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #74 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
You can join the military at 18.

yeah, and...?

I had to retype my whole post because I accidentally closed the browser window. Anyway I had a link to a story that AQ and other orgs are kidnapping kids as slaves and soldiers. So I wouldn't go so far as to equate the US military volunteers with the AQ volunteers. Of course you would then have to equate the cause and such, I suppose.

As to your newest post, I was supporting my view that was challenged and called racist.

Try to keep up.
post #75 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by Beige_G3
Are there any other links to the original story that started this thread? Have any other media reported it?

The majority of links reference either the Report Mainz (the German TV news show) footage or the Der Spiegel article.

UNICEF and the IRC have verified that over 100 children are being held. UNICEF is scheduled to issue a report shortly, but has yet to be granted access to the facility at Um Qasr.

Sergeant Samuel Provance, the US military intel analyst who was interviewed on Report Mainz, first discussed the abuse of children at US run detention facilities in an interview back in May.
Quote:
A military intelligence analyst who recently completed duty at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq said Wednesday that the 16-year-old son of a detainee there was abused by U.S. soldiers in order to break his father's resistance to interrogators.

The analyst said the teenager was stripped naked, thrown in the back of an open truck, driven around in the cold night air, splattered with mud and then presented to his father at Abu Ghraib, the prison at the center of the ongoing scandal over abuse of Iraqi detainees.

Upon seeing his frail and frightened son, the prisoner broke down and cried and told interrogators he would tell them whatever they wanted, the analyst said.

[...]

Provance, 30, said he was not present for the mistreatment of the detainee's son, which he said occurred in December or possibly January. But he said an interrogator described the incident to him shortly afterward. When contacted by the Chicago Tribune on Wednesday, that soldier declined to comment.

Provance said he escorted the boy from the interrogation cell block to the prison's general population immediately after the encounter between the teenager and his father.

[...]

Provance already has been deemed a credible witness by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who included the army sergeant in a list of witnesses whose statements he relied on to make his findings of prisoner mistreatment at Abu Ghraib.
post #76 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
yeah, and...?

I had to retype my whole post because I accidentally closed the browser window. Anyway I had a link to a story that AQ and other orgs are kidnapping kids as slaves and soldiers. So I wouldn't go so far as to equate the US military volunteers with the AQ volunteers. Of course you would then have to equate the cause and such, I suppose.

As to your newest post, I was supporting my view that was challenged and called racist.

Try to keep up.

Why do you keep referencing AQ? Is it this hard for you to keep your "Arabs" straight? Oh yeah, your not a mother-fucking racist piece of shit because you keep on deliberately equating the people of Iraq with AQ even though it's been refuted over and over and over and over. "It's bad to hurt children but a terrorist is a terrorist and you can't be too careful."

Never mind who's actually in the jails of Iraq. You don't care. You don't want to know. Because the truth of the situation would interfere with clever little line of reasoning.

So you think it's OK to hurt children. You can't have it both ways. Either it is never OK, or it is. You immediately speculate on reasons why it is, sometimes, then act wounded and outraged when we take you at your word. Which is what you always do. You say something repulsive and insane and then deny it, parsing little bits of things as if the argument hung on them.

You think it's OK to hurt children because sometimes children are really terrorists and that's one of their tricks. That's what you said, you miserable little coward.

The thread is about abuse of children as young as 12 in Iraqi prisons. You want to talk about AQ and freedom and the fate of America, because those terms make it easier to pretend that almost anything is justified.

Nice big sweeping notions that obscure the blood and suffering of people you know nothing about and care nothing about, except insofar as they serve as a donkey to pile you jingoistic sloganeering on.

Have you got children? Can you even begin to imagine their brains and blood on your shirt? Can you imagine the smug bastard a world away that brushes his hands and says "war is hell, but necessary"?

Can you imagine crying out to God but God has turned his back becasue he knows you approve when it's somebody elses children?

A person who claims to be reasonable and compassionate but can rationalize death and torture as "a necessary evil", and who can't even be bothered to try very hard to sort out the entirely innocent from the circumstantially involved from the actually guilty is neither reasonable or compassionate.

That person is quite simply evil. Because that's what evil is. A kind of moral stupidity and laziness that revels in its own justifications and prizes "winning" over truth, or kindness, or imagination.

Evil is willing to trade the lives of strangers for slogans. Evil is happy to explain why atrocities, are (sadly) sort of inevitable when the stakes are high. Evil looks pass the screaming of the bereaved to the air- conditioned office complexes of tomorrow and calls it a fair trade. Evil has no use for the stories of victims, because horror is a weakness and surely a tool of the enemy.

Christ, I fell dirty just reading your posts. I'm done with this.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
post #77 of 123
wow
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

post #78 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Why do you keep referencing AQ? Is it this hard for you to keep your "Arabs" straight? Oh yeah, your not a mother-fucking racist piece of shit because you keep on deliberately equating the people of Iraq with AQ even though it's been refuted over and over and over and over. "It's bad to hurt children but a terrorist is a terrorist and you can't be too careful."

Never mind who's actually in the jails of Iraq. You don't care. You don't want to know. Because the truth of the situation would interfere with clever little line of reasoning.

So you think it's OK to hurt children. You can't have it both ways. Either it is never OK, or it is. You immediately speculate on reasons why it is, sometimes, then act wounded and outraged when we take you at your word. Which is what you always do. You say something repulsive and insane and then deny it, parsing little bits of things as if the argument hung on them.

You think it's OK to hurt children because sometimes children are really terrorists and that's one of their tricks. That's what you said, you miserable little coward.

The thread is about abuse of children as young as 12 in Iraqi prisons. You want to talk about AQ and freedom and the fate of America, because those terms make it easier to pretend that almost anything is justified.

Nice big sweeping notions that obscure the blood and suffering of people you know nothing about and care nothing about, except insofar as they serve as a donkey to pile you jingoistic sloganeering on.

Have you got children? Can you even begin to imagine their brains and blood on your shirt? Can you imagine the smug bastard a world away that brushes his hands and says "war is hell, but necessary"?

Can you imagine crying out to God but God has turned his back becasue he knows you approve when it's somebody elses children?

A person who claims to be reasonable and compassionate but can rationalize death and torture as "a necessary evil", and who can't even be bothered to try very hard to sort out the entirely innocent from the circumstantially involved from the actually guilty is neither reasonable or compassionate.

That person is quite simply evil. Because that's what evil is. A kind of moral stupidity and laziness that revels in its own justifications and prizes "winning" over truth, or kindness, or imagination.

Evil is willing to trade the lives of strangers for slogans. Evil is happy to explain why atrocities, are (sadly) sort of inevitable when the stakes are high. Evil looks pass the screaming of the bereaved to the air- conditioned office complexes of tomorrow and calls it a fair trade. Evil has no use for the stories of victims, because horror is a weakness and surely a tool of the enemy.

Christ, I fell dirty just reading your posts. I'm done with this.

First, i would like to second the "wow" statement that pflam made.

Second. once again you have proven that reading comprehension was not taught in your school.

I am speaking of terrorist, because that is what we are fighting all over the world now, including in Iraq. Honest, hard working people of Iraq are not making bombs and taking up arms against the US forces. We are talking about terrorists. The US is not even interested in 99% of the previous Iraqi army. They are focusing on the worst of the worst there. I know that you want to think that the military is just picking up people (children included) off the street simply because they are Arab, so they can have fun at their expense. This is simply a false notion. There are people all over Iraq that have guns that are not fighting anyone and are left alone. The biggest threat for the US soldiers now is EID's and those making them (terrorists) not the Iraqi people.

Let's be blunt.I think it's OK to hurt and kill terrorists whenever possible. The problem that you have is that innocents get caught in the crossfire, and you don't like it. This has been and always will be the case. Get used to it. It will happen as long as the terrorists exist and hide behind and among innocents.

The other thing that you may not realize or accept is that you, me and every other human that loves liberty and freedom is now at war that was declared long before 9/11 but was driven home on that day.

You can whine and cry and get all upset that a 12 year old girl might have, maybe been mistreated. Meanwhile as we speak terrorists (did you happen to see how many Pal-islamic groups there were?) are plotting to KILL you and the people that YOU and I love. Oh yeah, they won't stop until they are dead.

So mister "panties in a bunch", what would you do to stop the ever growing Islamo-fascist movement that is afoot? I don't think that you have anything better to offer. And that is the real issue here, isn't it?

If a 12 year old girl has info that could save many lives, your families lives say, and she has been brainwashed with radical notions, what would you do to get that information?

It seem that maybe it is you that don't value the lives of the soldiers or care about their families. Huh?

Catch-22 isn't it?

Edit: Oh yeah, time IS of the essence so gently reintroducing her into society and buying her flowers and taking long walks on the beach probably won't cut it. Just a thought.
post #79 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Let's be blunt.I think it's OK to hurt and kill terrorists whenever possible.

How about abusing the child of someone who may or may not have information relating to what may or may not be terrorist activites in order to get them to talk. D'you think that's okay?
post #80 of 123
Quote:
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
How about abusing the child of someone who may or may not have information relating to what may or may not be terrorist activites in order to get them to talk. D'you think that's okay?

Ask the families of the dead soldiers in Iraq or the 9/11 victims families.

How do you think the cold war was won?

PSST. I'l give you a hint, it wasn't with fancy chocolates and a bouquet of roses.
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