REALISTIC suggestions for new iMac 2004 - Page 4

They won't. Pisses of the retailers because RAM is the most profitable accessory.

Chillimac-

prices are way too low. Unless Apple kills the eMac you simply won't see a iMac with a 17" at 999. Sure you can buy a PC with a 17" LCD for $999 but you'll quickly notice the LCD is a crappy analog model. Apple doesn't put crappy LCDs with their systems. They are all digital and look sharp. That kind of quality is an "upgrade" feature for PCs. Most of these PCs are shipping with analog LCDs that look "worse" than a decent CRT. We've taken a large step backward.

Also any computer $999 or over needs a DVD burner. Your not going to save that much money by dropping down to a Combo drive. The eMac today has DVD Burner in it's upper model. Apple will be DVD burner along the whole lineup IMO. Doesn't make any sense to do otherwise.

It needs to be 999 to stand a chance.

eMac is a bloated, radiation emmiting, eyeball searing, hunk of retro-tech. Better an average quality LCD than that dog-awful, moire riddled, low refresh, bulky piece of shit.

LCD's are cheap enough. Apple could do it if they were serious about hitting the 999 price point.

Otherwise, just make it headless and leave the display up to me.

No...y'all are living in fantasy land. Those $999 systems with 17" LCDs are using 3rd rate panels running analog. Apple doesn't EVER put crap displays in their product line.

I see users on this board stuck in deciphering the different paradigms of Apple vs PC

PC :

Throw in crap hardware and force the end user to upgrade to decent stuff. Toss in cheap upgrades like more RAM on GPU and system RAM that can be marketed more. Skimp on everything else(Display quality, I/O features)

Mac :

Ship systems with a decent array of I/O and always a quality display. Cheap out on system RAM, HD and GPU card.

Apple makes sure their products are represented well in person and not just on a spec sheet. I prefer their approach to the a la carte nature of many PCs.

Not EVER, huh?

hmmm...

15" fuzz bomb CRT on the original iMac, kept well past prime.

17" dinosaur, non-trinitron, slow refresh (sub 90 is slow), super-moire CRT in eMac, launched about 2 years too late, priced to compete with 15 and 17" LCD based systems.

There are very nice analogue LCD's that are leagues ahead of either of those two displays, and that don't cost very much at all.

I have a 19" LCD (with digital and analogue inputs, 700:1, 300cd/m^2, and sub 25ms response) that I picked up for less than 500 USD equivalent. 17" panels are going for the equivalent of 350-400 USD retail.

Given that the guts of an eMac aren't worth more than 500USD on a good day, Apple is raping your ass without lube to the tune of about 300 for that outdated CRT they've so graciously anchored to the eMac for you.

I knew you'd counter with some defects and anomalies of various Apple monitors which is fine but the qualitative perception of said Apple monitors was high. Unlike the total crap I see being attached to PCs where on its best day the monitor sucks.

I believe Apple "will" have a $999 model with a LCD when it's feasible to do so at their current standards. I don't think Sept is the date but perhaps by 2H 2005 we have that option.

Hardly anomalies.

The first was their best selling single model ever. And for at least half of it's life it was woefully underequipped in the display category.

The second sells steadily, argely because it's the only thing edu can come close to affording, and it started life with a display that might have been acceptable two years before.

Add them both up and they're more than 75% of the AIO's ever shipped in the Jobs era, and they ALL had/have bad displays.

I really like Trinitron tubes, but I think you're over-the-top with your hyperbole about the eMac's display. Were you frightened by a CRT as a small child?

I own 2 eMacs and three Sony Trinitron TVs (including XBR models). I see more Moire patterns on the TVs on a daily basis than I do on the eMacs on a monthly basis, and the eMacs are often in use as DVD players, which should provide a pretty good test. The Trinitron tube with its large single lens and slot-mask was never designed to eliminate or even minimize Moire, it was designed to increase sharpness and brightness over then-current (say, 1972) triple-lens circular shadow-mask CRTs.

As far as refresh rates, I'm very sensitive to slow refresh (anything under 75Hz literally makes me nauseous). My eMacs refresh at 89 Hz @ 1024x768 and 80 Hz @ 1152x864. What are the refresh rates of the "Intel integrated" video circuitry on typical sub-$1,000 PCs?

I'm afraid consumers don't seem to echo your sentiments in large numbers. Perception is reality and monitor quality is a non-issue as far as I can see in the Macdom.

I will also acknowledge that PC "can" have nice monitors but that isn't guaranteed. I'm always shocked by how good the iMac LCD monitors are. Bright and sharp..that has to be a baseline for all LCD monitors for Apple.

Price is vastly overhyped (vilified more like it) by the faithful. If that was the case the iPod wouldn't have skyrocketed to stardom. It's functionality that people pay more for. iLife isn't enough to sway the masses.

I'd be happy with a high clocked G5 and a 17 inch LCD at 1299.

That original iMac pricepoint i think is the REAL sweet spot. 999 has the attraction of being just under a thousand of course but for that extra 300 dollars a lot more options are presented to Apple to provide a stronger machine.

First the argument was that Apple specs a higher quality display. When it is shown that Apple does not, then the argument becomes that it doesn't matter. I can almost agree with the second argument's new direction -- it hasn't mattered in the past. It will matter in the coming months.

You can't critique a bundled LCD for being of average quality, when it's still a whole lot better than the CRT being shipped in the eMac's you're comparing them with.

Voxapps, The resfresh rate on a intel video circuitry can drive displays well past 90hz, but it doesn't really matter when your 999 system comes with an LCD. On an LCD even 60hz is fine, since LCD's don't "refresh" in the same way CRT's do -- pixels stay lit, they have to be shut off on an LCD, as opposed to re-lit on a CRT. CRTs flicker, LCD's don't.

Yes, iMac LCD's are nice.

Apple has stated that 999 is the target. They have stated at various times that the goal was to get an iMac product into that price range.

As it stands today, component costs make that possible. The eMac can go back to edu only duty at a reduced cost -- institutional buyers can get eMacs at substantial discount, they don't need opticals or large HDD's, or even airport and/or BT most times, just nice dumb terminals for basically wired labs.

Consumers want/demand/deserve LCDs at the 999 mark. Apple knows this.

Yay! Matsu's back.

The rev.B iMac had a great screen. A sharp 15 inches and it worked just fine for ... oh, maybe several hundred thousand people ...

I've spent some time on the eMac and it is great, especially in commercial lighting situations.

I wonder what the percentage of consumers are now on LCD's....don't think it is very high yet.

Sure a good LCD is better than many crt's, but I think Apple needs to get significantly below $999 with its base consumer AIO and it needs to fit with the low end consumer perception and that means the crt for a little while longer.

Can and should Apple build 500-700 dollar machines? I don't know. I think it's a good idea, and no, such machines won't have an LCD. But at 999, that's no longer territory for a CRT based system.

Apple has publicly stated a desire to build a 999 consumer machine -- the "sweet spot"


That's not a bargain computer, it's fairly high end for a home machine, actually, but I think they've rightly assessed it as a "sweet spot"

What that means, is that machine is not cheap enough to sell, rather, it's just pricey enough, and attractive enough, to make 500-750 level buyers cough up the extra 300 quid and walk out with something a lot nicer.

999 is a sweet spot because it marks a nice threshold -- yo can convince people to spend that much rather easily if you throw a few nice features their way.

A CRT doesn't meet that criteria.

eMac is just a place holder in lieu of something proper for the space.

The evidence is in Apple's own institutional pricing on the eMac -- they can afford to sell it a LOT cheaper than 999, and they do, albeit with a few changes.

You will see a 999 iMac, and it will have an LCD, unless it goes headless.

As a recent semi-switcher, hoping to be full switcher, I have seen pictures of the current iMac but never seen them in person. I've always liked the design, but today i went into my local Apple reseller and took a look, and i have to say, i love the iMac design. It's smooth, organic and is/can/will be iconic.

So, despite the fact that I have great confidence in Apple's design prowess and am very interested in seeing what they can come up with, i would be perfectly happy with the current, or a minor tweak of the current design, just with updated compenents.

I really want an Apple desktop, but the PowerMacs are overkill for me, so I want an iMac that doesn't cross into the PowerMac's market, but comes close enough to it to give me the power i want without the overkill.

A 1.6Ghz, 1.8Ghz, 2Ghz line with 17", 20" and 23" monitors respectively would be fantastic, especially if they stick a good graphics card in as standard/let you choose a better one when you order.

This is exactly correct. The vast, vast majority of user can not afford an LCD screen. Not everyone can justify spending money on a luxory such as a pretty display.

Me, well of course I have an LCD. But that is only because I'm a computer geek that spends way too much time on these fora.

The eMac has outsold all of Apple's LCD computers and seperate displays combined. (Edit: This is speculation as Apple has yet to publicize numbers differentiating between i and emac sales)

While LCD is nicer, their is no current outcry from the masses to replace its screen with an LCD.

Ugh I gotta tell you, after working on an LCD for two years then having to use a CRT for a month -- there's no comparison I just need to work on an LCD. Those damn CRTs just fry my eyes.

It's kind of like once I get a GPS for my car, I'll never be able to get a car without one!

I bet you could do without these luxories if you got laid off and needed to feed your family.

While I'm joking, this situation is acutally quite true for many people. Granted, more often, it comes down to buying the kids new bikes or getting an LCD over a CRT.

The demographics of these boards tends to obscure the different type of life decisions faced by the majority of consumers.

It is true that Apple lumped Emac sales as iMac sales to hide the embarrasing low sales. and even after doing that sales still sucked and matched the powermacs. Pro users are outnumbered 100 - 1 by consumers yet apple sold about equal qtys of (iMac+Emac) as Powermac. so this means they were a utter dissappointment after the millions of crt iMacs thats sold. Blame the all in one and blame the very very stale hardware. mx class video with no upgrade path mated to a allready very slow G4 and you have a formula for disaster. The Lcd iMac is a very nice machine, looks nice,nice ergonomic screen but performance was crap. I think the biggest question for Apple is will they stick to all in ones or make a consumer tower. More all in ones in my opinion will not gain any market for Apple. One of the most stupid things Apple has done is telling the consumer there is no upgrade path mated to a nice lcd. Marketing idiots. The other very stupid thing is not making a G5 iMac as soon as they could. even now its a year or more overdue. does anyone think a watered down 1.6 G5 mated to more fx5200s are going to make buyers run to Apple. they will need a gimmick to wrap around once again outdated and slow hardware. This is a very poor formula for success. iMac crt was running about the same speed as Powermac when introduced minus altivec(big deal unless you were a photo pro) and thats why it was a hit with consumers plus it had color. boy did they get away from that formula and sales prove it.

I really don't think an AIO is doomed to failure by virtue of it all-in-oneness.

To the contrary, I think if the proper price/performance relationship is achieved, an AIO iMac could be very successful.

Don't hold back...



But he's right folks! (Bad visions of 1.6 G5s with MX Nvidia graphics cards...all nice and non-upgradeable...)

Lemon Bon Bon

Crock of crap.

They're dirt cheap now for 17 inch LCDs. Check out PC World monitors. Plenty with good contrast ratios.

Their tower LCD combos hit the 'sweet spot' and lower.

The iMac looks like a white elephant alongside them.

Apple admitted the iMac 2 and eMac designs were old.

Change is coming to the iMac. Hopefully the Ginger stepchild eMac won't be far behind....

Hasn't the eMac outlasted the 'puck'? Shudder.

Obviously you're not going to get a Geforce 6800 and a G5 2 gig for £799-999 price range.

But put a high single speed G5 eg 2 gig alongside decent bus speed with a Radeon 9600 and you've got a nice proposition. Along with a 17 inch LCD. Should do quite nicely.

As for the eMac. Turn it into the headless XMac and pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap with a simple white box. iCube. Amen.

Lemon Bon Bon

True, and that's beyond opinion. They proved it with the first iMac !

I agree but will the greedy bastards at Apple do it? mate a 9700 class video with a single 2.0 G5 and you could have a nice machine but look at the history. removing the L3 out of iMacs G4,going with stale video cards, and then the no upgrade path, giving it a factory only memory slot etc etc. that made sure to handicap and cripple the darn thing the only thing they didnt do was shoot it. I would guess the same bastard that made those decisions is still the same one making the calls now. iMac LCD could have been a fantastic machine given some performance . the rest is history.\

I think there alot of people who feel the same as you Maffrew. I didn't like the IMacLCD style at first, but over time you can't deny how ergonomic and iconic it is...it STILL is. You (as a consumer) pay more for the best display ergonomics and the smaller than really necessary footprint. So with better or at least upgradeable (by 3rd party?) internals, I would LOVE to see Apple keep it as they did the crt via the eMac.

However that extra you pay for ergonomics, isn't the largest segment of the market, so I'd go for Lemon's iCube as well .... just have something other than white.

It would be great to go Ice/Metals-other-than-aluminum finally!

I'm droning, but I guess I still hope that the AIO doesn't go away. It is a great solution for many and is the heart of the iMac in my opinion!

As much as I'd like to see a G5 in there, my money is on a G4.

Most people who buy the iMac don't buy it because it's fast, but because it's cool and different. This is really what makes the iMac sell more than anything, and it's what will continue to drive sales. People who want a G5 will more than likely buy a tower, because it has a G5 and the performance features they're looking for. But not everyone buys power. Performance numbers don't mean as much to the target iMac user as it does to most of us. If it did, then sales would be sluggish and many more people would by buying PC.

They're probably not going to buy an iMac to play Doom3 when it comes out, nor are they going to buy an iMac to start a movie production house, but they do want something that's cool and fun, which is exactly what the iMac is. There's nothing like out there in the PC world, period. I doubt there ever will be anything as cool as the iMac that runs windows, and I've seen a lot of companies try.

My predictions:
New enclosure: This will be the big thing. It will probably have a new feature that's really neat that we can't imagine how we lived without it (like the monitor arm from the last iMac)
1.5GHz - 1.8GHz G4 (maybe as high as 1.8, probably 1.5): Possibly with more cache, but don't hold your breath.
512MB RAM on highest model.
Geforce 5600Ultra again on highest model, 5200 for low-end. Non-upgradeable.
120GB Hard Drive on highest model.

Apple won't let the iMac compete with the G5, so you're not going to see an upgradeable graphics card, nor a G5, nor as much RAM. The iMac is geared to be cool and to do that you need to squeeze as much computing power into as small of a space as possible. Like it or not that is one of the biggest trends in personal computing right now.

The iMac is supposed to be cool; the G5 is supposed to be the powerhouse of the line. I don't see Apple changing that anytime soon.

don't read much?

Also, does anyone here think that the 20th anniversary of the Mac will NOT include a killer All-in-One?!?!?!? Something that will look good in a SuperBowl commercial?

Go Packers!

Smart like dirt.

-M

You know,

I personally have killed any dreams for a 20th anniv mac. If apple was going to do such a thing I believe it would have happened by now. I would look forward to a 25th anniv mac .

And how smart is it to re-post his entire misinformed post?

Not everyone stays totally informed about Apple's stated plans.

...

I know what you mean, but maybe this is another reason for the slow iMac revision?! ...

... okay, back to a world without dreams....

Maybe people with other expenses can't afford LCD's -- you know kids, braces, mortgages?

However, that doesn't mean that 999 is now the mark for a 17" LCD machine.

I just looked at a Dell flyer under my door.

499 Canadian. Middling performer, Combo drive, 17" CRT.

Compare that to a 1049 Canadian eMac?

Yeah, eMac is a bit better in a few respects, but it's still in a whole other price category -- one where the bundle includes an LCD.

I agree with this.

I would love to buy an iMac LCD if the price were right, I bought a Rev C brand new back in the day and my wife and I still love it. It got more ram, a bigger hard drive and an internal burner. Still runs like a charm. But, back in the day the specs to price ratio were great, the iMac LCD's were never even close, this is why I never bought one.

I look to the 3G iMac's for my next machine, hopefully Apple wants me to own one.

no one has just said so i will just for you, Apple has allready announced a G5 iMac is coming so get over your I love my slow G4 phobia. Its over. it was over a 11/2 years ago when G4 was at 1.42 and now its at 1.5 do you get this? Moto screwed Apple or Apple screwed itself for staying with the dog for so darn long. P4s can be purchased running at 3.6 so please pay attention even when they are released dual 2.5s will have a tough time vs a 3.6 P4. the last darn thing Apple needs is more G4 garbage thats overpriced and underperforming with clocks from 1999.

It's actually quite smart to repost his whole message. That way when he edits it later, the proof will still be there in my message, and my reply won't be taken out of context.

If it's any better for you, I'll send you the .02 cents for the extra bandwidth you used.

-M

Well, sometimes we're not always on top of the whole thing. No offence, but we're are not discussing this, it's what Apple said at their last financial conference!

Apple says their next iMac will be G5 AND that it' will come out in September!

Please, it's ok, we can't all be on top of the news world. That's the way it is.

Giuseppe

OMG...man I had to get off the floor after I realize you posted today. Man, I'm laughing and laughin with ya! Trust..the next iMac is a G5 confirmed from Apple. I think we can take solace in the fact that a lot of us got a chuckle from your post. Life moves fast when you aren't on the boards everyday.

Ahem...

Lemon Bon Bon

(PS. Don't put your money on the G4...you'll only lose it, right?)

Yeah, I really hope they have another add for Superbowl XXXIX. I'd like it in the 4th quarter, when the Cowboys are having that comeback drive against the Patriots. 8)

Matsu, it is you that is a piece of sh*t.

The eMac is the cheapest way to switch from PC to Mac. No, it's not a Porsche, but it gets the job done in a big way for consumers, or dare I say prosumers.

Here's a short list of things consumers do:

E-mail
Web
Word Processing

eMac easily handles all three, with no viruses or spyware to boot.

Now here's what I do with mine:

iTunes, iTMS
iPod
iMovie
iDVD
Photoshop
Apache, PHP, and MySQL development
Cron
Python applications
Citrix for corporate remote access
PGP encrypted e-mail
etc, etc, etc.

You are ignorant.

the true idiot is one who categorizes the uses and needs of an entire market and can't make a rebuttal without making an ass of himself