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Would you support the Iraq war for purely humanitarin reasons? - Page 2

post #41 of 88
It reads like you disagree with the military families "who can't see how the invasion of Iraq directly effects the safety of Americans".

But you are saying that you understand their viewpoint? Ah, thanks, that sounds much more sensible.

Perhaps your point would have been clearer if you'd ended with "I understand that point of view" or "I understand their viewpoint" instead of "I understand that". Your phrasing leaves it more than a bit ambiguous as to whether "that" refers to the invasion directly affecting Americans' safety, or to the viewpoint of some military families that it does not.
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post #42 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by G4Dude
By the way, I think it's sad how liberals think they are superior to everyone else. They think that freedom is something that not everyone should get. Somehow they believe that only they are entitled to it and that it is okay so stand by when a brutal dictator murders hundreds of thousands of his own people. Well, guess what: it's not! What makes you guys think your life is so damn more precious than some poor Iraqi's?

Freedom is great . . . Were the Iraqis free to not have to have our freedom imposed on them?

Freedom is many things . . . . freedom for one group of people might be different than the kind you value . . . some people would rather have freedom from fear and anxiety and illness at the expense of open social strictures than have freedom to choose your favorite video game at the expense of an environment of anxiety or fear for their lives or etc etc.

Some people want to be free by being free from your idea of freedom.

Who is more arrogant:
The person who believes that their culture is universally the best and therefo forcibly undergoes an invasion which, at least in its accompanying propaganda, is about 'helping them and 'freeing' them.
Or someone who is reluctant to assume that they immediately and always assume what is best for everybody?

\

BTW: Saddam's largest murder sprees happened WHILE THE US and he were allies!! They still contihued but not with such severity, with the exception of the quelling of the rebellion which we announced support for and then retracted.
Saying that 'we realized he was a bad guy" has nothing to do with anything in reality-land: The reasons for our changing relationship to Saddam had to do with resources and geopolitical power positions.
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post #43 of 88
Let me add a few different thoughts.

First, one must be very careful of the rhetoric being bandied about. One man's contractor is another man's mercenary. Those labeled terrorists by the ruling group are often considered freedom fighters by the oppressed.

My take is that while it is good that Saddam is gone it is terribly wrong that the US conquered Iraq in order to accomplish this.

Here is one possible alternative. The US had complete control of the skies of Iraq. The US could have armed both the Kurds in the north and the Shiites in the South. With the benefit of US airpower protecting them they could have staged a revolution to take down Saddam by gradually encroaching on Saddam from the north and south.

With no source of weapons and facing armed rebellion Saddam would have eventually been taken down.

There are a lot of problems with this scenario. Iran and Turkey would have strongly resisted anything that made the Kurds too powerful. Turkey at least, is an ally.

The Shiites are culturally close to Iran. It is not in US interests to have the southern part of Iraq become a client of Iran.

The Sunnis in Iraq would be powerless and probably severely oppressed after the fall of Saddam. The Sunni resistance might have fought on for years and years.

While Saddam would be gone and Iraq would be under self-rule there is no telling how things would wind up several years down the road.

Don't forget that the US is building an enormous embassy in Iraq and we are building at least fourteen permanent military bases. On the surface Iraq will seem to be free but they will remain an occupied country for a long time.
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post #44 of 88
That would have led to civil war and probable mass murder of Sunnis, as well as an eventual incursion by Turky and perhaps even Iran.

I do not believe that the humanitarian issue was a good reason for this war.
NOT in the way it was prosecuted.

What should have happened: very stringent oversite on the food for oil program . . . something that was left in charge of the US, and in specific, by a group headed by Negroponte . . . . however, they werre not concerned with shady profits and business, supposedly, because they were too concerned with weapons.
We also should have made a very strong push, diplomatically, to form a real coalition made up of Islamic countries as well as UN members. This would have then placed increasing pressure over a period of a year, or two, while a real plan is assembled rather than a hackneyed plan written by people completely unaware of the realities of MEast.
As well as manouvering serious internal pressures through assorted different means.

Of course, none of this would have happened if there was not some real form of payoff, resources or political position (ie: "presence in the ME" -Pax Americana) . . . and even with those real goals in mind they would not have happened . . . if we had taken that coalition/diplomatic coupled with increased internal pressure approach the US would not have a solitary grasp on the goods
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #45 of 88
There is only one small problem with the premise of this thread...

Halabjah.

The subject of WMD cannot be avoided no matter how hard you try.

10 points to the person that can tell me the next obvious question.
post #46 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
The subject of WMD cannot be avoided no matter how hard you try.

Unless, of course, you are avoiding the fact that the incident you cite was 14 years ago, and that no WMDs have been found in Iraq (despite your unwavering and incredible belief that they will be found any day now).
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post #47 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Let's say Bush and Blair didn't say a single thing about WMD or WOT. They never said Iraq was a threat to anyone else, they only said that Saddam was a horrible dictator who tortured and murdered the Iraqi people.

It wouldn't be without precedent - the intervention in Yugoslavia was essentially humanitarian. Milosevic didn't pose any threat to the US or Europe. Neither did Haiti or Somalia. There was a joke that one of the conditions for the use of the military during the Clinton administration was that it didn't serve American interests.

So take the threat argument away completely - would the war have been justified?

No. There are plenty of African and Southeast Asian countries in worse shape that should be bumped to the front of the line.

 

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post #48 of 88
When one country rushes in and topples another, destabilizes it and plunges it into chaos, and that second country poses no threat to the first, there is nothing humanitarian about that. "Humanitarian" implies selflessness, and the current administration's actions are anything but selfless.

But to answer the thread title, if humanitarian reasons actually were the modus operandi, like in a parallel universe or something, I still wouldn't have supported it, certainly not without global consensus. Intervening to stop a war is one thing; starting one, unprovoked, is another.
post #49 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Halabjah.

The Kurds were killed by a nerve agent, produced and used by Iran and not Iraq.
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post #50 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Freedom is great . . . Were the Iraqis free to not have to have our freedom imposed on them?

Some people want to be free by being free from your idea of freedom.

And it's amazing to me that in this day and age some people actually believe democracy = freedom. If only they knew anything (even a tiny bit) about the world around them.
post #51 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Unless, of course, you are avoiding the fact that the incident you cite was 14 years ago, and that no WMDs have been found in Iraq (despite your unwavering and incredible belief that they will be found any day now).

So you have forgiven Saddam, then?

Is there some sort of statute of limitations on mass murder?

Enlighten me, please.
post #52 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
The Kurds were killed by a nerve agent, produced and used by Iran and not Iraq.

What? Please expand.
post #53 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
What? Please expand.

Sure. Actually, let's just have the CIA's top analyst on the Iran-Iraq war explain it:

http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle2098.htm

Watch the whole thing. It's great, especially in retrospect.
post #54 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
What? Please expand.

NaplesX,

I didn't click on giant's link because it's probably redundant information, but if that link isn't enough please post in this thread and ask for more proof. If Google can't help you find some information I'll try and post more of what I know.
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post #55 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Sure. Actually, let's just have the CIA's top analyst on the Iran-Iraq war explain it:

http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle2098.htm

Watch the whole thing. It's great, especially in retrospect.

That's it! That's your expansion?

The guy is an obvious anti-bush anti-war guy. What are the references to the "movement"? He sites a report from the DIA that he admits is iffy, although he sticks by it then he tells the crowd there that is is classified, therefore not verifiable. He really didn't say anything in that whole 15 minute clip.
post #56 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
That's it! That's your expansion?

The guy is an obvious anti-bush anti-war guy.

No, he's obviously someone in a better position than anyone posting on these boards, to know what he's talking about:
Quote:
I am in a position to know because, as the Central Intelligence Agency's senior political analyst on Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war, and as a professor at the Army War College from 1988 to 2000, I was privy to much of the classified material that flowed through Washington having to do with the Persian Gulf. In addition, I headed a 1991 Army investigation into how the Iraqis would fight a war against the United States; the classified version of the report went into great detail on the Halabja affair.

It does help to read a little, before spouting off nonsense like that.
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post #57 of 88
The guy also stated that it was just another battle and merely another tragedy of war. Ho hum.

Here look at all the soldiers that were there in that town. Look at all the guns...

http://www.kdp.pp.se/4.jpg
http://www.kdp.pp.se/bad0080.jpg
http://www.kdp.pp.se/2.jpg
http://www.kdp.pp.se/1.jpg
http://www.kdp.pp.se/12.jpg
http://www.kdp.pp.se/hal8.jpg
http://members.tripod.com/surkew/173d9390.jpg

And you guys call me all sorts of names and say I am heartless. What a screwy world.
post #58 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
No, he's obviously someone in a better position than anyone posting on these boards, to know what he's talking about: It does help to read a little, before spouting off nonsense like that.

How many analysts were there at the CIA during those years?
post #59 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
How many alylists were there at the CIA during those years?

1. I don't know, do you?
2. What does it matter how many?
3. He was the SENIOR analyst on Iraq.
4. Learn to spell.
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post #60 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
1. I don't know, do you?

I don't know exact numbers but I am sure it was thousands.
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
2. What does it matter how many?

We are talking about one voice in thousands. Have you even checked to see if there are opposing views to his, or is he automatically a respectable source because he supports your political argument?
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
3. He was the SENIOR analyst on Iraq.

Senior, meaning head of a department, or senior, meaning being there for a certain amount of time?
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
4. Learn to spell.

Ouch!
post #61 of 88
Here is a source that you guys seem to respect:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack

Read it carefully.
post #62 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Here is a source that you guys seem to respect:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack

Read it carefully.

Reading that carefully, I see this phrase in the first sentence:
"allegedly by Iraqi government forces"

Note that is the only "alleged" part - the fact that Kurds died from poison gas is not up for debate. But the question of who gassed them, IS.

More on this in the discussion of the wikipedia topic you linked:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ha...son_gas_attack
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post #63 of 88
What an interesting discussion, particularly because Naples apparently doesn't even know what he's arguing about any more.

The two points are, and these are also Pelletiere's points, a) whether it was the directly caused by Iraq or Iran is open for debate and b) (this is the big one) this was a battle in a war, not a genocidal attack on civilians.

Pelletiere:
Quote:
This much about the gassing at Halabja we undoubtedly know: it came about in the course of a battle between Iraqis and Iranians. Iraq used chemical weapons to try to kill Iranians who had seized the town, which is in northern Iraq not far from the Iranian border. The Kurdish civilians who died had the misfortune to be caught up in that exchange. But they were not Iraq's main target.

As far as the wikipedia article goes, you've made the fatal mistake of trying to use it for definitive info on recent political events without reading it very skeptically. That's a big no-no. Case in point, the paragraph at the end gives no authoritative sources (and after a quick initial search it appears the quote is not showing up on the HRW site) and is, in fact, very wrong if it really is claiming that this was not a consequense of war. I will correct that entry by the end of the day.

Pelletiere's real and very legitimate argument:
Quote:
Before we go to war over Halabja, the administration owes the American people the full facts. And if it has other examples of Saddam Hussein gassing Kurds, it must show that they were not pro-Iranian Kurdish guerrillas who died fighting alongside Iranian Revolutionary Guards.

That's what you and many others have missed. You've eaten up a piece of propaganda without questioning what the real facts and debates are. You hear "gassed the kurds" and don't even bother to find out what that actually means and what the circumstances are. The point, in the end, is that the whole situation is far, far more complicated when accounting for the factual events, the political situation and the research done on it in the past 15 years.
post #64 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Reading that carefully, I see this phrase in the first sentence:
"allegedly by Iraqi government forces"

Note that is the only "alleged" part - the fact that Kurds died from poison gas is not up for debate. But the question of who gassed them, IS.

More on this in the discussion of the wikipedia topic you linked:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ha...son_gas_attack

I agree, but from what I have read on the issue, there are far more people "in the know" that think it was SH than people that think otherwise.

It seem that many here are just satisfied with interjecting some kind of doubt into any given discussion, and anything that supports that tactic is quoted. There are actually people that think that the US had a direct hand in Halabja. I bet there are some that think that aliens did it too.

The consensus right now is that SH along with Chemical Ali are responsible for the tragedies:

http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/01/iraq0117.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...raq/majeed.htm
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/kurds/attack.html

That is but a small sampling.

And giant, I know exactly what I am arguing about, but thanks for the help, however useless.
post #65 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
That is but a small sampling.

GlobalSecurity.org is a secondary source (I'm actually writing an academic article that includes a bunch of info on John Pike as we speak), and the HRW article is not a primary source, nor does it even discuss halabja (meaning you aren't even really reading what you post). Primary sources (meaning the only real "in the know" sources) would be any of the 3-5 (can't remember the exact number) studies done on halabja, the DIA report and the others that were all done by peace groups, all of which I read years ago (the DIA report was summed up in Pelletiere's final assesment at the army war college).

As it stands, you are arguing a nonpoint. Pelletiere's argument is bulletproof in that he is only stating what we know and pointing out that there is not a concensus on which side is responsible, that the US changed its position when it was building the case for war, but the fact remains that regardless of where the responsibility lies, it was a sad consequence of war and the civilians of halabja were caught in the middle of a battle.

If you want to have discussions about civilian deaths during war, that's fine. One could easily point you to the most dramatic cases of civilian deaths in war (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) to see that this happens in war. Hell, the current war in Iraq has killed some 10000 Iraqi civilians. Its a sad fact of war and one of the main reasons why war needs contemplated more carefully than this administration is willing to.

This isn't to say that Saddam wasn't a genocidal killer, but your reliance on skimming websites you don't understand to create an alternate narrative to support your empty, pointless and directionless argument does you and this board a disservice.
post #66 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
GlobalSecurity.org is a secondary source (I'm actually writing an academic article that includes a bunch of info on John Pike as we speak), and the HRW article is not a primary source, nor does it even discuss halabja (meaning you aren't even really reading what you post). Primary sources (meaning the only real "in the know" sources) would be any of the 3-5 (can't remember the exact number) studies done on halabja, the DIA report and the others that were all done by peace groups, all of which I read years ago (the DIA report was summed up in Pelletiere's final assesment at the army war college).

As it stands, you are arguing a nonpoint. Pelletiere's argument is bulletproof in that he is only stating what we know and pointing out that there is not a concensus on which side is responsible and that the US changed its position when it was building the case for war, but the fact remains that regardless of where the responsibility lies, it was a sad consequence of war and the civilians of halabja were caught in the middle of a battle.

If you want to have discussions about civilian deaths during war, that's fine. One could easily point you to the most dramatic cases of civilian deaths in war (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) to see that this happens in war. Hell, the current war in Iraq has killed some 10000 Iraqi civilians. Its a sad fact of war and one of the main reasons why war needs contemplated more carefully than this administration is willing to.

This isn't to say that Saddam wasn't a genocidal killer, but your reliance on skimming websites you don't understand to create a alternate narrative to support your empty, pointless and directionless argument does you and this board a disservice.

Can you please do me a favor?

Put me back on your ignore list. You have insulted me so many times that anything that you say is meaningless and looks like "bla bla bla, Look at me! I know everything, bla bla bla...."

You seem to forget these are opinion boards, and everyone has one. You can point out where you think I am going wrong, but don't insult, your credibility is zero with me despite your obvious intelligence. I am not sure why you bother.

The only people that might respect you here, are those that obviously agree with you and that is just sad. You have every opportunity to be civil and decent, if you wanted to. Yet, time after time you make your choice.
post #67 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Reading that carefully, I see this phrase in the first sentence:
"allegedly by Iraqi government forces"

Note that is the only "alleged" part - the fact that Kurds died from poison gas is not up for debate. But the question of who gassed them, IS.

More on this in the discussion of the wikipedia topic you linked:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ha...son_gas_attack

I am not sure, but I think that you missed some very key adjectives like:

some - 1: quantifier; used with either mass nouns or plural count nouns to indicate an unspecified number or quantity; "have some milk"; "some roses were still blooming"; "having some friends over"; "some apples"; "some paper"

Example - "Some people affiliated with the United States government at the time of the Halabja attack continue to insist that Iran, rather than Iraq, committed the atrocity"

Most - 1. Consisting of the greatest number or quantity; greater in number or quantity than all the rest; nearly all.

Example - "Most accounts of the incident regard Iraq as the party responsible for the gas attack, which occurred during the Iran-Iraq War."

I could be wrong.
post #68 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I am not sure, but I think that you missed some very key adjectives like.



It's called NPOV. Welcome to the wikipedia.
post #69 of 88
post #70 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Let's say Bush and Blair didn't say a single thing about WMD or WOT. They never said Iraq was a threat to anyone else, they only said that Saddam was a horrible dictator who tortured and murdered the Iraqi people.

It wouldn't be without precedent - the intervention in Yugoslavia was essentially humanitarian. Milosevic didn't pose any threat to the US or Europe. Neither did Haiti or Somalia. There was a joke that one of the conditions for the use of the military during the Clinton administration was that it didn't serve American interests.

So take the threat argument away completely - would the war have been justified?

A good question, one that might be asked of the Iraqi people now (and in five years). For all of Saddam's killings, and all the mass graves, one has to remember that he had ceased the worst atrocities - maybe a couple of thousand of executions a year - by the time of the invasion.

Reputedly, many more deaths were being caused by the embargo...

I'm not sure that one can easily seperate 'all the reasons' for ridding the gulf of Saddam into a few neat catagories.
post #71 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
We are talking about one voice in thousands.

"...immediately after the battle the United States Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a classified report, which it circulated within the intelligence community on a need-to-know basis. That study asserted that it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds, not Iraqi gas."

From here, originally posted/printed January 31, 2003.
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post #72 of 88
Isn't war for humanitarian reasons an oxymoron?

I bet more civilians were killed by US bombs last year than were killed by Saddam the year before.

There's nothing humanitarian about war.
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post #73 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
"...immediately after the battle the United States Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a classified report, which it circulated within the intelligence community on a need-to-know basis. That study asserted that it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds, not Iraqi gas."

From here, originally posted/printed January 31, 2003.

Let's make this simple:

There are conflicting reports about what happened, and none are rock solid. You have to assume a lot and forget a lot of facts to believe that the Iranians were responsible for Halabja.

Think it through from a neutral perspective. Ask the most obvious questions.

BTW, the quotes you posted were from the same speech that giant posted the video of AFAIK.
post #74 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Let's make this simple:

There are conflicting reports about what happened, and none are rock solid. You have to assume a lot and forget a lot of facts to believe that the Iranians were responsible for Halabja.

Think it through from a neutral perspective. Ask the most obvious questions.

BTW, the quotes you posted were from the same speech that giant posted the video of AFAIK.

A neutral perspective would demand that you look at all possibilities including that Iran was responsible due to the war.

What are these most obvious questions.
"Who could have done this?"--Saddam, or Iran
"Why would this happen?"--Iran was at war with Iraq, Saddam had a bone to pick with the Kurds.

What you have to do as NOT assume that one party is culpible immediatly given liitle evidence to support that claim while deeming another party innocent when there is evidence (the same amount of evidence points to both sides) against the "innocent" party. PS which country has ties to terrorists again?
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post #75 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
There are conflicting reports about what happened, and none are rock solid. You have to assume a lot and forget a lot of facts to believe that the Iranians were responsible for Halabja.

No you don't. The fact is that all of the studies have shown both are responsible and that both sides killed civilians with chemical weapons at halabja. What is disputed is which one is more responsible. The actual point of disagreement concerns which side used which chemicals and what chemicals killed the majority of victims.
post #76 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
A neutral perspective would demand that you look at all possibilities including that Iran was responsible due to the war.

What are these most obvious questions.
"Who could have done this?"--Saddam, or Iran
"Why would this happen?"--Iran was at war with Iraq, Saddam had a bone to pick with the Kurds.

What you have to do as NOT assume that one party is culpible immediatly given liitle evidence to support that claim while deeming another party innocent when there is evidence (the same amount of evidence points to both sides) against the "innocent" party. PS which country has ties to terrorists again?

OK:

Former ambassador to Croatia from 1993 to 1998 he documented the Iraqi authorities' attacks against the Kurds in the late 1980s when he served as senior advisor to the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee (1979-1993). He was one of the first to witness the genocide of the Kurds by the Iraqi government during a trip he made to the region in 1987. Peter Galbraith said of his trip to Iraq:

"As we traveled from the Iraqi area to the Kurdish area, we were stunned to see that the villages were gone. These were places that had been inhabited for millennia. The graveyards were removed, the mosques, all the wire had been taken down form the electric poles. It had become a desolate region. And we could see where the people had been moved. Iraq called them victory cities but in reality they were a kind of concentration camp."

"It was a moment of recognition. And I put together the use of chemical weapons against villages far from the Iranian border in places that could have nothing to do with the Iran/Iraq war and put that together with the systemic destruction of villages that Id seen before. The conclusion was that this regime was committing genocide. And I felt that we had to do something about it."

One of "Chemical" Ali's orders, dated June 20, 1987, directed army commanders "to carry out special bombardments [a reference to chemical weapon use]...to kill the largest number of persons present in...prohibited zones."

In 1988, "Chemical" Ali said of the Kurds. "I will kill them all with chemical weapons! Who is going to say anything? The international community? Fuck them! the international community, and those who listen to them!"

In March 16, 1988, in the town of Halabja, 5,000 Kurds died writhing in agony and 10,000 were seriously affected when Iraqi jets dropped chemical bombs on the town
post #77 of 88


You should be banned for that kind of dishonesty. Mashing quotes from Galbraith and then globalsecurity.org to make it appear like they are all from the same place.

So as I said,
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
The fact is that all of the studies have shown both are responsible and that both sides killed civilians with chemical weapons at halabja. What is disputed is which one is more responsible. The actual point of disagreement concerns which side used which chemicals and what chemicals killed the majority of victims.

Oh, the other point of disagreement with the DIA study cites the report that the town was taken by Iran and Iran-aligned forces the day before the main attack , further demonstrating that if Iraq was primarily responsible, it was a military battle targeting military forces.
post #78 of 88
Quote:
Originally posted by giant


You should be banned for that kind of dishonesty. Mashing quotes from Galbraith and then globalsecurity.org to make it appear like they are all from the same place.

So as I said,

Oh, the other point of disagreement with the DIA study cites the report that the town was taken by Iran and Iran-aligned forces the day before the main attack , further demonstrating that if Iraq was primarily responsible, it was a military battle targeting military forces.

Where is the military bodies, Iranian or Iraqi?

Surely there would be some, no?

Oh yeah, my above post was a timeline, you do realize that or should I have spelled that out?
post #79 of 88
Halabja was just part of the plan:

http://www.gendercide.org/case_anfal.html
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1992/iraqkor/KOREME4.htm
http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pub...d/chemical.htm

"During his two-year Anfal Campaign against the Kurdish population, Saddam Hussein used these chemical weapons against more than 40 villages."

You guys act as if Halabja was he only village that CW's were used against.

Was Iran responsible for all of the others?

Same MO, but hey let's blame Iran.
post #80 of 88
OK, I'll be benevolent and bring you up to speed.

The following is Glen Rangwala's analysis referencing most of the studies done. However, he does not accurately charaterize Pelletiere (apparently was not aware that he was the CIA's top analyst on the war) and his claim that the war was not closely examined by the authors is subsequently very false.* Another possible problem is the explanation of the presence of cyanide through tabun decomposition, since decomposition could take far longer. For these reasons, while I am swayed by Rangwala's argument, it does have those weak points which have not been addressed and likely will not be since it would require examining classified information the CIA has on the battle.

What is not open for discussion is the fact that it was part of a battle, in fact one of the major battles of the Iran-Iraq war.

Anyway, here it is, as posted to the casi list:
Quote:
Dear Mark

I've refrained from posting to the list before on this issue, out of concern that it will provoke a more substantial (and to my mind, fruitless) discussion. No doubt someone will come back at this with further, tortuous explications in an attempt to demonstrate that it really was the Iranians that did it. But nevertheless, since you ask, and in an attempt to correct some of the misinterpretations put around previously, here goes.

The source for most of these "exposes" of Halabja was a report entitled 'Iraqi power and US security in the Middle East' by Stephen Pelletiere (trained in politics, also claims Iran was behind the 1991 intifada in Southern Iraq), ret. Colonel Douglas V. Johnson (trained in strategic studies) and Leif Rosenberger (trained in economics). It was published by the US Army War College not usually a source that campaigners take as providing the gospel truth. I mention the authors' academic background only in order to point out that none of them (to my knowledge) are trained in chemistry or medical diagnostics. As far as I'm aware, the IHT piece of 1990 was just referring to this study (though I haven't seen that article directly).

Contrary to the claim made in one of the authors cited by Ghazwan it cannot be said that this book "examined very closely the behaviour of the Iraqi army during the hostilities with Iran". Indeed, it only makes brief mention of Halabja, and then only assertively (no evidence is offered). On page 52 of the book it is simply written:

"In March 1988, the Kurds at Halabjah were bombarded with chemical weapons, producing a great many deaths. Photographs of the Kurdish victims were widely disseminated in the international media. Iraq was blamed for the Halabjah attack, even though it was subsequently brought out that Iran too had used chemicals in this operation, and it seemed likely that it was the Iranian bombardment that had actually killed the Kurds."

That's it, the basis of much of the claims that have been circulating on casi-discuss for the last few years.

So why did these authors take this line? Well, the focus of their study is not on Halabja, human rights in Iraq or international welfare, but is indicated by the title of the study, "US security in the Middle East".
Straight after making their claim on Halabja, the authors detail what they mean by "US security in the Middle East":

"As a result of the outcome of the Iran-Iraq War, Iraq is now the most powerful state in the Persian Gulf, an area in which we have vital interests. To maintain an uninterrupted flow of oil from the Gulf to the West, we need to develop good working relations with all of the Gulf states, and particularly with Iraq, the strongest." (p.53)

This is two sentences after their take on Halabja. Human rights organisations' attempts to penalise Iraq are "without sufficient thought for the adverse diplomatic effects" (p.53). Again, p.57: "under pressure from the Iraqis, all the Arab states of the Gulf with the possible exception of Oman would tacitly support a move to withdraw US privilieges in the Gulf" and so Iraq needs to be kept on side, lest "US privileges" be withdrawn.

OK, that's the ad hominem attack as such. Turning to the actual arguments themselves, Douglas Johnson has explained them in a little more detail in personal correspondence with a colleague of mine. The sole evidential material provided is that the photos of Kurdish victims showed blue discoloration of extremities, and this was an indication of use of a cyanide compound, most probably hydrogen cyanide or its derivatives ("blood gas"); since it was claimed that Iraq did not make use of hydrogen cyanide, someone else must have done it. Therefore (the argument goes), it must have been Iran. This is coupled with a claim that since Halabja was only recently captured by the Iranian-backed Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, there was probably an Iranian mix-up and the Iranians ended up bombing their own side.

The problems with this argument are numerous. Most obviously, why on earth would Iran bomb a town so extensively whose inhabitants were among the core supporters of their ally, the PUK? The argument of "fog of war" fails to hold, even if the Iranian air force had thought that Iraqi troops were still present in Halabja.

Even that seems unlikely: the PUK captured Halabja on 15 March 1988. They were accompanied by members of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard who coordinated PUK actions. The town was fully under PUK/Iranian control 4 hours after they entered the town. The eyewitness testimony collected by Physicians for Human Rights and by British filmmaker Gwynne Roberts, who was in Halabja & captured the attack and aftermath on film, confirms this: the PUK controlled all exits to the town, and were preventing civilians from leaving as they thought that the Iraqis would not spread their artillery bombardment of surrounding areas to the centre of the town if it was fully inhabited (human shields). I find it hard to believe that with Iranian troops in the town for 36 hours before the chemical weapons attacks, the field commanders still thought that Iraqi forces were still in possession of the town.

The actual attack began at nightfall on the 16th, when 8 aircraft dropped chemical bombs; they were followed throughout the night by 14 aircraft sorties, with 7 to 8 planes in each group. Intermittent bombardment continued until the 18th (some reports say the morning of the 19th). If the Johnson et al argument is to be believed, Iranians were bombing their own elite units and key supporters for 48 hours, even though news reports were already circulating about the defeat of Iraqi troops on the 15th.

Regarding the nature of the CWs used the crucial element in Johnson's analysis the most detail survey of the medical effects was done by Professor Christine Gosden, a medical geneticist from Liverpool Uni, who has (I think) done the only survey into the long-term effects of the CW attack (obvious access problems until recently). From looking at the health problems of those who were victims of the attacks on Halabja, her results show that mustard gas, sarin, tabun and VX were used in the attack.

Prior UN investigations had catalogued Iraqi use of Tabun and mustard gas from 1983, but ongoing into the later stages of the war (see in particular the specialist report of the UN Sec-Gen of 26/3/84, and the UN expert commission report on use of chemical weapons in the Iran-Iraq war doc no. S/18852 of 1988 ). Iraqi use of sarin and VX has been widely asserted (the former, by the Physicians for Human Rights in soil sampling from Birjinni: http://www.phrusa.org/research/chemical.html). So it seems quite clear that all the chemical agents that Gosden traces the use of at Halabja had been used previously by Iraq.

By contrast, I have seen no reliable analysis of Iranian use of either Tabun or Hydrogen Cyanide Dr Johnson doesn't tell us that he has any such evidence either: all he says is that there was no previous use of cyanide from the Iraqi side, and infers from this that it must have been the Iranians. By contrast, the presence of cyanide which Dr Johnson claims (but is still disputed; the claim stems primarily from Iranian autopsies on victims I believe, but are not independently confirmed) is perfectly explicable in terms of Iraqi use of Tabun. Gosden says:

"The Halabja attack involved multiple chemical agents including mustard gas, and the nerve agents SARIN, TABUN and VX. Some sources report that cyanide was also used. It may be that an impure form of TABUN, which has a cyanide residue, released the cyanide compound."

(http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1998_hr/s980422-cg.htm;
reposted in a better format at: http://www.chem-bio.com/resource/gosden.html)

The only credible report that Johnson himself cites in his defence, a PhD from Syracuse University in 1993 rather than supporting Johnson's case shows that the decomposition of the chemical agent, Tabun (which Iraq did use) produces a cyanide compound. Iraq didn't need to use hydrogen cyanide directly in order to produce blue discoloration around mouths. Its established repertoire of chemicals did that as well.

This interpretation has also been supported by the Jean Pascal Zanders, Project Leader of the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute's Chemical and Biological Warfare Project, who conducted interviews with victims of Halabja brought to Brussels for treatment.
Zanders argues that direct use of hydrogen cyanide at Halabja was unlikely. Hydrogen cyanide is itself highly volatile. It must be delivered on the target in huge quantities to be effective and its effects are gone in a matter of seconds. The heat in Halabja would have rendered this even more problematic. Furthermore, the flashpoint of hydrogen cyanide is very low which means that it easily explodes. So at least some bombs or containers with the agent, if that was the method of delivery, would have exploded upon impact. There are no reports of any such explosions (unlike the many accounts of French drums filled with hydrogen cyanide exploding in mid-air or upon impact when lobbed towards the German trenches in WWI).

Finally, there is no evidence of Iranian use of hydrogen cyanide either. Iran has submitted its declarations on past CW programmes to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, the international body overseeing the implementation of the Chemical Weapons Convention.
International inspectors have verified these declarations, including those regarding former CW production facilities. Zanders mentions that Iran only had pilot plant-scale CW production facilities towards the end of and just after the war. He argues that Iran does not in retrospect appear to have had the capability to mount a major CW attack. This is consistent with UN reports of the time (including the 1988 report referred to above) which found no evidence of large scale Iranian use (it is probable, though, that there were small trial uses by Iran in 1987).

So, in summary, either the atrocity at Halabja was carried out by the Iraqi military against their enemies - with a set of chemical warfare agents that they had a record of use prior to Halabja, and with a proven reputation for using chemical weapons in large amounts against civilians (the mustard gas attacks on Majnun island in September 1984 are estimated to have killed 40,000 people) or by the Iranians, against their own allies and soldiers in an attack using chemicals that there's no evidence that they ever have had. If you still choose to believe the latter, you should be aware that the only original report I know of that supports your position is primarily concerned with maintaining friendly relations with Iraq for oil and geostrategic reasons, and shows little understanding of the nature of the chemical agents used in the war.

I hope this is useful.

Best regards
Glen.

On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 [email address edited out] wrote:

> At the time, the Kurds and human rights groups said that it was
> Iraq. The UK & US governments were directly and indirectly
> blaming Iran and shifting the blame away from Iraq. Again at the
> time, I took this to be 'proof' of Iraq's guilt as the US/UK were
> strongly supporting SH.
>
> It would be interesting to know the truth rather than the US/UK spin
> and misinformation from the time.
>
> Mark Parkinson
>
> --

Note that if you believe that the DIA report is a lie for political reasons, then you are saying that the Reagan administration lied. Rangwala mentions why they might do such a thing, and it also touches on the same reasons why we went to war in Iraq last year.

*in addition, note that his criticism of Pelletiere's characterization of the 91 uprising in southern iraq is challenged in a subsequent post.
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