Apple Tablet PC - Page 2

The rethink comes in a few ways.

a) inputting text in a tablet is painful ( ive got one on my desk right now ). Even after a couple of months with it I feel like it is a burden, rather than a benefit.

b) nobody wants to pay lots of money for a burden.

My conclusions are:

a) when they become really cheap people will buy them, just like we buy ipods, as a peripheral to our computers.

b) the whole interface needs to be rethought.

In fact, the previous poster got the target market perfectly, people who already write things. What you do is solve the core problem, not try to force an existing technology into the domain.

The key problem for people who work with paper is the cost ( time, effort, human error ) of transcribing written work into a computer.

The ergonomics of a tablet suck compared to ergonomics of notepad. SO what do you do? Make the pen smart, not the notepad. Smart pens are getting better much faster than smart notepads. You write or draw on your notepad, the pen records it all, you get a paper copy to give to people on the spot, and when you home then pen uploads its data to the computer.

But people wont pay a lot for a smart pen, less then $50 I think.
And it doesnt do things like let you browse the net in the toilet.
Or remote control your computer from you couch.

So I see a market for touch operated computers, but in input poor scenarios. Web browsing ( my tablet sucks for this ), fancy remote control.

It is the specialisation of devices that we will continue to see. Apple wont release a general purpose computer in tablet form. But they might release specialised peripherals. Im waiting for the smart pen, that doesnt need special paper ( so I can capture my doodles in meetings

Nope, no dodge at all. I'm surprised that's as far as your imagination takes you is all.




You really need to read more sci-fi.


I'm sorry, did you just say 'not that much different'?

Storage.

Sync Speed.

Software UI.

Hardware UI.

Sync w/ robust app w/ fast search.

You're absolutely right, every other MP3 player had those. What *was* I thinking?




Seen the tablet sales recently? They make the Mac market look positively *robust*.




But the design wouldn't have mattered without the storage space or the sync speed. It took *ALL* of it to make the package work. Oh, but I forgot... those were all run of the mill in MP3 players.


Then build it.

Seriously. Instead of putting all your faith in Apple, then complaining when they don't come through for you, show them the way. Simply put, if you know how it should be built, do it. Or at least articulate it here. All I'm hearing so far is that you want a tablet, but it's going to be Kewl because it's from Apple. Why? What will they bring to the table, that you can see as so simple, that makes your impatience rational and justified?


No, you're a loonie.

Tablets can be useful. I agree wholeheartedly. My problem is when people think of it as a general computing device for all their needs. They certainly aren't at the point where you could pick one up at the price of an iBook...yet.

ps - GPS is being built right into a lot of delivery vehicles including garbage trucks rather than on portable devices because it helps when trucks get stolen (and they *do* get stolen)

I take classes at night and I find that my Powerbook works better for me than any tablet. With OmniOutliner and OmniGraffle I can whip together my notes in an organized and readable manner much better than I could by hand and I never have to rewrite the notes to be legible.

I have used tablets. Apple can make a nicer interface and prettier hardware but in the end it will be great in only some instances. Freehand srawing is one instance where it would kick ass.

Now the way to make it compelling? Wait for the technology to make one 1/2 inch thick and 8 1/2 x 11 and weigh about 1 - 2 pounds. Then it needs to be priced low, very low because the way it will be handled will cause a higher attrition rate than typical laptops.

Also such a device would *have* to be priced and marketed as an accesory to a regular home computer because that would let it be used in situations where its strengths could shine and leave you to use the desktop for other tasks.

Hey Kickaha, are you saying that Apple won't ever come out with a tablet style computer?

And if you aren't saying that, then when do you feel one will come out?

*arches eyebrow*


Long document. Or program. Or mail. Or just about anything of any serious length over a page that requires text input - like, say, this post.


Used one a lot then, I take it?

Trust me, it's not. I've used a TabletPC. I've used Ink under MacOS X for several weeks while my arm was in a brace. I own, and still use, a Newton 2100. For anything more than the occasional text tidbit, it simply is a pain.


Ah ah ah... but you said it was simply a superior input method. Choose your position. Is it simply superior, or is it simply superior for things that don't require long text entry? Because in my experience the latter set of tasks is pretty small, unless you're a graphics designer.


It has been.

About 25 years worth, in CHI research, and 10 years in the marketplace.

Newton, WinPad, Palm, GeOS, WinCE, Symbian, TabletPC... they've all come and crested. Handheld sales are declining, not accelerating. Tablet PCs have never sparked, and are languishing quickly.

Do I think Apple *could* come up with a kickass tablet-esque device that used handwriting recognition as the primary but not only means of text input? You bet.

Do I think the market would support it? Not unless it hit a new sweet-spot that *it defined*. Playing follow the leader to TabletPC is a dead-end. They've run that market into the ground and salted the earth behind them.

My guess? An A5 aspect device (half the size of an 8.5x11 paper, roughly, slightly larger than a paperback) with a thin bezel, WiFi, Ethernet/modem and USB/FireWire connectors. No optical. *MAYBE* a PCCard. Maybe. 2cm thick. Keep it simple. A 120ppi display (1024x768) and standard MacOS X kernel, with a reduced driver set for efficiency (although it would only save disk space, easy enough to purge later). On boot, would look for host CPU over FireWire and kick into target disk mode if possible. Sync data between units on the fly, using MacOS X Server Backpack utility. This is not a desktop replacement, this is a Palm on steroids (ie, a Newton). It is not for massive data creation, it is for data *access* first and foremost, and creation secondary. In that case, the drawbacks of the pen (which are many) are reduced and minimized.

See? Not hard. Your turn.

I never said they would never come out with one.

And I have no idea when they might, any more than you do.

What I said was that whining that they *haven't* come out with one, to your satisfaction, is inane when the very people complaining can't articulate what the heck it is they even want... but gee, they know Apple will whip up something 'really good', and obviously they haven't released this magical product because they're big meanies.

Or something. It's all very unclear and inarticulate.

You forgot to mention when one would come out... if ever.

And for someone that claims I am switching sides on an argument you flip flop like a mackarel.


Yes... it is called a pencil and paper.

I NEVER said that typing wasn't superior for specific applications. I simply said that pen input was superior because of its intuitiveness.

I would like you to take the opposite end of that argument considering man has been using a stick to make their mental concepts physical for millenia.

Oh for god's sake. I refuse to answer your asinine question any further. I stated my opinion on that. Not my problem if you can't read. Christ.


Blah blah blah.




...

I give up. This isn't worth anyone's time.

what are you saying then?


What? When did I say I knew when they were coming out. You are the one acting if it some impossible task. Now you are backing off that stance.


So you are whining about people whining? That makes a lot of sense.

No one even asked me what I wanted in a tablet. I would be happy to tell you but it will take awhile.



Who said that?


I didn't really realize someone could be so clueless to the benefits of pen input...

If there are many other people that don't see the potential in this type of system I could spend some serious time and ullustrate all these benefits. And show examples of when they would be useful.

Maybe we should make a thread where everyone can tell all the uses they would have for this type of system.

That might help people such as yourself with limited imaginations.

Oh for god's sake. You can't even argue intelligently, much less read for simple comprehension.

Someone please lock this worthless thread.

You are the one that is making this argument heated... "Loonie".


Have you picked a side of the argument yet? Or are you going to argue both sides? Why don't you go argue with yourself. lol

Hey - I'm all for an EVENTUAL Apple Tablet (as a Trekkie how could I not be) - But lets talk simple component cost alone... Price out a "GOOD QUALITY" 10" LCD Touch Screen - add that cost to the cost of say an iBook. Subtract $250 for the cost of the existing LCD screen. (maybe that's too much to subtract but do it anyway)

Tell us what the final cost is... and then tell me who'd be willing to pay that much.

Someone should be able to dig up the 10k unit pricing of a 10" Touch Screen (and remember GOOD quality - Apple doesn't use crap)

Dave

You aren't a really fast typing moderator?

Heretic!

Yeah, this thread seems to have grown into a name-calling, b!tch-slap fest. So sad.

Yeah, I vote for a group hug. 8)

We handled it in PMs. Nothing to see here, citizens, move along.

*hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuggggggggggggg*

I feel so snuggly now.

<peeks head in door>

Can I come in?

<walks in on tippy toes>

I see one major issue with pen input I think people are taking for granted: pen input. That is, people are convinced that a pen/stylus and writing by hand is a faster, more intuitive and more efficient method of giving data and feedback to the computer. I would say that is true if you are writing only. It might be true if you are painting/drawing. But I don't think we can make this assumption when you're doing other kinds of work. Not that you couldn't make it work, but you start to get into tapping, double-tapping, gestures, light pressure versus hard pressure, and maybe even buttons on the stylus, all in ways that are unconventional to old fashioned hand writing. So then you're at the same place more or less as you are with a mouse, though potentially with more precision (not necessarily for that if you've ever used those little stylus pads at checkout). I think there's a law of diminishing returns with pen input once you start to deal with more advanced tools or ones that have developed from typing or computing environments. The idea of using a pen in Excel actually sounds like a nuissance. How and how well would Shaek or Logic handle it?

Honestly, not to toot Kickaha's horn, but having input from your fingers along with a keyboard as the situation is appropriate sounds like it has a lot more flexibility and convenience to users than a needing a pen input and especially more than a pen-only input. You lose some precision, but you gain a better hybrid experience as the situation warrants.

Oh toot! Toot! (He's talking about Facetop, a little side-project I'm on.)

There's room for a flexible set of input methods, and no one single method works for everything. (Can you imagine trying to draw with keyboard commands? People used to. Some LaTeX users still do. It sucks.)

I've used the best that handwriting recognition has to offer, commercially, (and also a TabletPC *rimshot*) and it is *WONDERFUL* for small text inputs and gesturing... but it absolutely bites for long documents. For firing off quick emails, sure. For writing the next great novel (or program), no thanks. It's simply too cumbersome.

And before someone steps in and says "But pen and paper work great!"... try these systems out. They're almost nothing like pen and paper... except for the Newton, and even that wasn't perfect enough to be really *GOOD* at emulating the paper environment. Still had warts.

I'd love it if Apple came out with the device I mentioned above - but that would require a redefinition of the marketspace. Luckily, they are pretty good at that. I expect we'll see something like that only when the various portable technologies (broadband wireless, OLED screens, battery life) become viable and cost-effective, and when MacOS X supports the type of infrastructure such a device would need. Obviously, with Tiger, it's heading in that direction.

Sounds cool. Althugh apple was beaten to it. You know how apple prefers being coppied than copying. How will they fit a G5 in a tablet pc. This is apple, but still.

And this is exactly why I think that trying to make a computer with a pen interface is going to fail.

The interface that works is pen and paper, so make the pen and paper smart, so I everything I write and draw on it gets digitised to my computer.

Its not a dynamic interface. It is the same static interface we have been using for a long time, but thats cool. I dont do 'real' work on paper, I use it to jot thoughts, and take notes, and draw sketches. Its a starting place, and having automatic transcription would be magic.

Hmmmm....I will chime in with my $0.02. Let me preface this by saying that my slant will be that from the perspective of a scientist.

I spend a lot of time reading papers (.pdf format) or going to talks to watch .ppt presentations.

I like to draw on the papers that I read - underline, circle things, make comments in the margins. I have many, many .pdf files on my laptop but I have to print them out to effectively read them. This could be facilitated with some sort of a tablet interface where I could use a "pen" to make my comments directly......

Also, when going to a talk, if I could put the .ppt file on my tablet, then I can take notes directly on the slides as the speaker presents his/her work.

Or, for medical doctors.....patient charts can be digitized instead of in a three-ring binder.

I honestly think that hybrid laptop/tablets will be the way to go in the future.

-Dr. Bimane

That's what's so frustrating about Tablet PC right now, they can be used to mark things up, but the marks aren't really intelligent, they don't signify things to happen or record digitally. They're just dumb marks.

Actually, I think the red herring here, if there is one, is the pen. What's more important to me is the direct manipulation with the screen. What's funny about the mouse isn't its shape, it's its location. Wouldn't it be easier to point at a folder on screen to move it rather than wiggle the thing on your right to manipulate some effigy (pointer) to do the same thing? From that point of view, a pen input's strength isn't in writing, it's in point and click, or as Apple puts it, direct manipulation.

In the end, I don't oppose a tablet concept, just that I think there are inherent limitations of the idea. When CAD and computers hit the architecture world, there were people who swore up and down that the pencil was dead and we would never use trace or build physical models again. There were of course people who felt that computers would spell the end of the profession too. The wiser ones realized that computers would change the design process, but that it was a complement to older means and methods too. I think tablet/pen/touch screen input has the same complementary relationship. It won't supplant most methods of input, but it will sit next to them as a peer. In that way, I think an explicit tablet PC is too limited in scope to be a "real" computer. In Steve Jobs terms, it would be a computer "junior" experience.

I've owned two tablet PCs ( a Motion Computing 1200 and a Toshiba 3505) and I went back to using a Powerbook for four reasons:

1) Handwriting recognition performance is very poor. The old Newton 2100 has better recognition performance than the current TPCs. While capturing notes in ink is OK for some applications, most folks need to use type written text for business purposes; the low recognition performance of the TPCs is a barrier to using them for routine business.

2) Digitizer performance is poor near the edge of the screens. Most applications group their control functions (scroll bars, menus, etc.) near the edge of the screen. These are difficult to access reliably wit the current round of TPCs.

3) Import/export features between applications that use ink (e.g., Journal and One Note) are primitive. This is also a barrier to business applications - many folks can't commit to placing mission critical data on a TPC, because they may not be able to access it in esktop applications.

4) Eye fatigue is a problem. Current TPCs use screens whose digitizers require the LCD surface to be located a few millimeters below the actual surface of the screen. This is distracting, because most folks tend to look at the tip of the pen as they write, just like they do with paper.

It would be great if Apple made a tablet computer, but unless they address these issues, then it won't be worth the effort

I've had similar experiences on my toshiba. I dont think that the tablet concept is going to fly outside of niche markets ( doctors, presentations ), and I think that a tablet that uses a desktop OS is absolutely doomed.

I rather enjoyed my Newton, and perhaps it would work well on a larger screen.

I wonder if the most minimal possible interface would work. Literally a white ( or other color ) screen that you can draw on ( and have text recognised ). No menus. I can see a need for a previous and next page button, and a transmit button ( to share with other tablets ).

Any integration with other apps needs to be achieved on a 'real' computer.

apple retail stores - the best place to scope out the future of in rumor forums, yeah... what else?

I think a tablet should be two screens. One normal color and one B&W touch screen. You can draw on the one and use the color for more 'normal' computing. I have to think a normal screen plus a B&W screen would be a lot cheaper than one high quality color touch screen.

As a fellow scientist, I can't agree more. The ability to have the source material for a presnetation available for additional markup would be great.
I guess the new MS office is thinking in this direction, not that I've paid Redmond for another upgrade yet.

Our needs are what really most students face in the classroom as well. One day they will sit down with their pads, wirelessly download the presentation that has been prepared by the prof and then start taking notes on it, all while recording the audio of the lecture. What more could you want other than direct feed into the brain so we don't actualy have to work at learning-maybe in version 2.0.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean he is right this time AND the "apple tablet computer" (i dislike the title "tabletPC) is not in the drawer either. It is all about marketing. And concerning apple: TRUE marketing with FALSE arguments.
There is a market for tablet computers, but apple/Mr Jobs just couldn't stand it,
that he couldn't advertise the "apple tablet computer" with
"hey we are the first. we proudly introduce the first tablet pc in history." Simple as that, believe me

Seriously, i definitly say: an "Apple tablet" WOULD be a very good add to the entire apple line. I recently worked with a HP TabletPc and i have pretty much to say: nice piece of technology (i don't mean the OS which operates the gadget)

Granted there are some issues with the recognition engine which runs under the hood. But there is nothing that couldn't be fixed in the near future.
Though, the ability to draw and to sketch something quickly is worth it alone. This feature is pretty usefull for creative people all range, - meetings, conferences, generall research, and so on)

best

Essentially isn't the tablet just a newton on crack?

Apple was the first to market and they took a famous bath on it. Unlikely to repeat that past fiasco apple will probably sit out the tablet idea. Unless there is such strong demand for tablets or something else that is innovative that they can bring to market

It seems to me that the biggest argument against Apple releasing a tablet comp anytime soon is that Steve has said they won't, and he is not the most flexible of characters....

However, wading through the morass of argument and invective in this thread, it's possible to conclude (at least in my opinion) that:

Kickaha and the sceptics are correct - design is a problem, non-keyboard input is still clumsy, text recognition is at best unreliable, screen tech is not yet adequate, markets are not well defined and so on.

Equally, Vox Barbara and the supporters are correct - tablets better imitate the millenia-old method of information presentation, the ability to write directly onto documents could be invaluable, keyboards are a century old abomination deliberately designed to be inefficient, and so on.

So where's the problem incorporating both viewpoints in a device? There are already hybrid tablets that dock with keyboards when required and stand alone when not. Sure, they are underpowered, heavy and overpriced, but they won't always be. The sort of technology required to make a thin, light, powerful device is surely not so far away: OLED screens, sufficient solid state memory, decent speech recognition, better HW recognition, better battery solutions, that sort of thing. Plugging in a keyboard to write a large document would be trivial. Once the document is done, the device could easily be detached and used in any room for any task.

I'm thinking here of a device that wouldn't complement the desktop in the home, but would rather replace it. It would be hard to pigeonhole such a device, as it would effectively be a desktop when you wanted it to be, a tablet when you etc etc.

When I wonder to myself if such a device is feasible, at least technologically, I just glance over at my two decade-old tandy color computer. My TiBook is more powerful by many orders of magnitude only 18 years after the Tandy was released.

The good folks at apple think so too!

This was developed as a vision idea by apple in 1988 or so.

http://www.bu.edu/jlengel/kn65kfs.mov

I hope it was not lost on you that the QuickTime movie was set sometime in the future after 2006. I hope that you also noticed that the professor in the video communicated with the Knowledge Navigator by interactive voice and by touch, and not by handwriting.

As to the general proposition of a PowerTablet (my name for Apple's take on the TabletPC), I think that it is a bad idea masquerading as vision. Handwriting as data input is fine for UPS delivery personnel. It is great for graphic artists using Wacom tablets. However, most of the tasks assigned to computers today do not lend themselves to handwriting as an input method. Handwriting is good for taking notes on paper, but almost everyone types faster and more clearly than they write. One can perhaps conceive of specialized tasks for which handwriting is the superior solution. For those, specialty vendors will provide solution if it makes economic sense for them to do so. I can conceive of no circumstance under which a general purpose mobile computer will be an economically viable solution.

P.S. A popular accessary for PDAs is an attachable keyboard.

Okay, I don't know how this thread got so long without the obligatory "The Newton can do all that" post. So here it is.

The Newton can do all that. Mine has an ethernet card in it which I can plug in when ethernet is available, and a keyboard which I can plug in if I feel like typing. I can print on printers. I can carry the Newton everywhere I go and make lists, compare prices, etc. OK, syncing is a little weak (with NewtSync, TextSync, TodoSync, etc.) but that's a software issue on the Mac side, and things are getting better.

The Newton has a big 8" screen. Batteries (4 AA NiMHs) last about a week. The best thing is that, unlike other PDAs, you will never lose any data, because everything is on flash memory, not battery-backed-up RAM.

I'd like an Apple subnotebook, and indeed that might replace the Newton. But today's PDAs are just too small and weak; today's tablet PCs are too bulky and expensive.

So can my Clie - wirelessly, and in color.

I think that what we're all trying to describe (or deride) is differentiated mostly by size. No matter the level of technology, a PDA screen is not suited to most multimedia operations simply because it's too small. The future tablet I am hoping for will effectively be a full-featured computer. It won't be a desktop replacement because there won't be (except for very specialized uses) any desktops any more.

Nope, none of that was lost on me, and I think that at present it is a goofy idea perhaps in 2011 when (and if) viable speech recognition comes into its own then the tablet may make more sense.

The compelling thing for me about Tablets are not so much the input of words and such, but being able to draw, scribble and edit text and graphics with a pen. As pdf's become more and more expansive and omnipresent, the OS that can best manipulate them, will have a leg up on the others ... whether that is in the form of a standalone Tablet or as a cheap periferal doesn't matter to me so much, though i'd like to have a computer that doesn't need me to type stuff in .... oh that's a multimedia player / web-browser.

Reading for comprehension: I was LAUGHING at Apples TOTAL LACK OF SUPPORT FOR NEXTEL. A sore point with me and HAS BEEN for a very long time!!

Dave

Yeah, those might only be some humble store employees but they just might know more than some AI Board "pundits." heh heh. Funny how things change in a couple of days.