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UN - loosing it's worth

post #1 of 41
Thread Starter 
Another resolution that is not going anywhere. Why do we waste time and money on this useless international body if member states blatantly ignore it? The situation is worsening as time passes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3911785.stm

Lets have another all-out war and wipe out most of the planet instead of these proxy wars. Maybe those who survive the war will realise that they need each other to live.
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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post #2 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by talksense101
Another resolution that is not going anywhere. Why do we waste time and money on this useless international body if member states blatantly ignore it? The situation is worsening as time passes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3911785.stm

Lets have another all-out war and wipe out most of the planet instead of these proxy wars. Maybe those who survive the war will realize that they need each other to live.

Actually I believe there is a provision that allows the general assembly to place sanctions on a member nation without a similar action from the security council. If I recall it requires more than a simple majority though. This was probably the first step to admonishing Israel (right or wrong don't want to argue that point) for the wall's construction. Just a hunch.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #3 of 41
It is absolutely crazy that nations should be expected to not build huge fences on someone else's territory!
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #4 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
It is absolutely crazy that nations should be expected to not build huge fences on someone else's territory!

Exactly. Noam Chomsky points out that "security" is hardly a reason for the fence. "If the goal were security," he writes, "Israel would have built the fence a few km inside its borders. It could then be a mile high, patrolled on both sides by the IDF, mined with nuclear weapons, utterly impenetrable. Perfect security." He echos groverat's comments that it's ultimately a "land-grab."
post #5 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by talksense101
Why do we waste time and money on this useless international body if member states blatantly ignore it?

Hope.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #6 of 41
The anti-Jew UN strike again.
post #7 of 41
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
The anti-Jew UN strike again.

Quote:
mas·och·ism Pronunciation Key (ms-kzm)
n.

1. The deriving of sexual gratification, or the tendency to derive sexual gratification, from being physically or emotionally abused.
2. The deriving of pleasure, or the tendency to derive pleasure, from being humiliated or mistreated, either by another or by oneself.
3. A willingness or tendency to subject oneself to unpleasant or trying experiences.

Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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post #8 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
The anti-Jew UN strike again.

Good'ol Scott the demagogue. The UN speaks out against Israel which equates to being anti-Jew. It can't be anti-annexing land, or anti-Israeli policy now can it. It's obvious the UN hates all the Jews in the world huh. How could we be so blind. Well I guess because there were a dozen UN resolutions against Iraq the UN must also be anti-Muslim too. We all know that the UN votes based on religion rather than issues anyway.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #9 of 41
Troll, sorry, Scott,

If Israel built the fence on Israeli land, the UN wouldn't have passed this resolution.

Do you think it's right or wrong that Israel built this fence on land owned by other people?

Very simple question.
meh
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meh
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post #10 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
The anti-Jew UN strike again.

The anti-World (excepting the USA and Israel) Scott strikes again.

Perhaps I'll move in next to you, knowing full well that I'll easily be able to build a new fence in my backyard which will make my yard 2 or 3 feet wider while mysteriously making yours 2 or 3 feet narrower.
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
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"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
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post #11 of 41
Because if anything is necessary in this world, it is an anti-Scott buffer zone.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #12 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
It is absolutely crazy that nations should be expected to not build huge fences on someone else's territory!

What are ou smokeing, look at the fence, it goes through Isreal, that is fine, the Palastinians have no claim to any land in Isreal, unless the UN doesn';t respect THEIR OWN TREATYS that helped establish Isreal as a nation in the 20th century.
post #13 of 41
Could a mod please fix the spelling and grammar errors in the thread title? It should be "UN -- losing its worth."
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #14 of 41
nm.
post #15 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by apple_a_day
What are ou smokeing, look at the fence, it goes through Isreal, that is fine, the Palastinians have no claim to any land in Isreal, unless the UN doesn';t respect THEIR OWN TREATYS that helped establish Isreal as a nation in the 20th century.

And who inhabited the land the UN gave away prior to them doing so?

I'll let you think that one over before you edit your post...
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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post #16 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
And who inhabited the land the UN gave away prior to them doing so?

I'll let you think that one over before you edit your post...

There is no, and has never been a nation called "Palestine"!
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
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You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
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post #17 of 41

And at what point did I say "They took the land from Palestine?"

I don't recall saying that. What I did say was to look up who inhabited that land before the UN turned it into a new Israeli state.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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post #18 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
And at what point did I say "They took the land from Palestine?"

I don't recall saying that. What I did say was to look up who inhabited that land before the UN turned it into a new Israeli state.

Lawrence
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #19 of 41
post #20 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Could a mod please fix the spelling and grammar errors in the thread title? It should be "UN -- losing its worth."

Dick.

It did take me a second to figure it out. I thought at first he was recommending some new stress reduction technique: "Un-loosing, it is worth it!"
post #21 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
And at what point did I say "They took the land from Palestine?"

I don't recall saying that. What I did say was to look up who inhabited that land before the UN turned it into a new Israeli state.

In 1939, Winston Churchill noted that "So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied . . . ." Exact population statistics may be problematic, but it seems that by 1947 the number of Arabs west of the Jordan River was approximately triple of what it had been in 1900.

The current myth is that these Arabs were long established in Palestine, until the Jews came and "displaced" them. The fact is, that recent Arab immigration into Palestine "displaced" the Jews. That the massive increase in Arab population was very recent is attested by the ruling of the United Nations: That any Arab who had lived in Palestine for two years and then left in 1948 qualifies as a "Palestinian refugees".

Casual use of population statistics for Jews and Arabs in Palestine rarely consider how the proportions came to be. One factor was the British policy of keeping out Jews while bringing in Arabs. Another factor was the violence used to kill or drive out Jews even where they had been long established.

For one example: The Jewish connection with Hebron goes back to Abraham, and there has been an Israelite/Jewish community there since Joshua -- _ long before it was King David's first capital. In 1929, Arab rioters -- with the passive consent of the British -- murdered or drove out the entire ancient Jewish community.

For another example: In 1948, Trans-Jordan seized much of Judea and Samaria (which they called The West Bank) and East Jerusalem and the Old City. They killed or drove out every Jew.
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
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You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
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post #22 of 41
Are we still pretending the UN isn't anti-Jew? Oh no wait they are just "critical" of "Israel"? That makes us feel better.
post #23 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Are we still pretending the UN isn't anti-Jew? Oh no wait they are just "critical" of "Israel"? That makes us feel better.


Scott, man why do still insist on presenting Opinion as hard fact.
this is from the very top of the article you just posted:



Opinion. Author Anne Bayefesky is of the Opinion or belief that the UN is anti-Jew. That does not in any way shape or form make it fact.


[edit]Also please stop trying to demagogue this. They are not anti-Jew as you like to characterize. The world body(save for 16 votes) of the UN is expressing a beliefe that the policies persued by Israel are wrong. The UN would be anti-Israel not anti-Jew.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #24 of 41
To add a little context to the discussion, many critics of the UN tend to overlook its less controversial but successful activities, such as the World Health Organization (WHO). In fact, many UN activities are of great utility to both the US and Israel.

It is often a handful of highly sensitive high profile subjects, such as the Israel-Palestine dispute, Iraq, etc., that lead people to conclude that the UN should be junked when they don't agree with how the UN deals with the issue.

Not to say that the UN doesn't need reform or doesn't make mistakes, but let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
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post #25 of 41
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by gobble gobble
To add a little context to the discussion, many critics of the UN tend to overlook its less controversial but successful activities, such as the World Health Organization (WHO). In fact, many UN activities are of great utility to both the US and Israel.

It is often a handful of highly sensitive high profile subjects, such as the Israel-Palestine dispute, Iraq, etc., that lead people to conclude that the UN should be junked when they don't agree with how the UN deals with the issue.

Not to say that the UN doesn't need reform or doesn't make mistakes, but let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

My post was to vent my frusturation at the futility of even passing these resolutions. The UN is doing janitor work after each war. It should be empowered to stop wars instead of being NATO's piss-boy.

p>s> Yes, the spelling in the title should be fixed to losing instead of loosing.
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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post #26 of 41
I don't want to sound like the "get us out of the UN now" crowd but I'm not sure that a weak UN is the worst thing in the world. The UN IMO should be a body for furthering agendas taken globally when there is global consensus. Things like the WHO and the World Bank and UNICEF etc. I'm not sure that the UN as an arbiter between nation-states is a great idea and in particular when there is not virtually unanimous agreement among the UN. I'm OK with the UN been weak some of the time. And I don't see how a strong UN could effect change in this matter anyway. What are they going to do, send troops in to tear down the wall and entirely man the green line? Not gonna happen for obvious reasons.

Having said all that, Israel's fence should have been located with more consideration and even the Israeli Supreme Court agrees.
post #27 of 41
Israel should just boot them all out and into the neighboring countries like Syria, Iran, and Pakistan. enough is enough let those crazy muslims deal with some more crazy muslims. Arafat had his chance and he blew it. Israel has shown too much restraint in my H.O. Also if we dont have the balls to blow up Irans nuc making base then maybe they will. last thing the world needs is crazy muslims with the bomb.
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post #28 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Could a mod please fix the spelling and grammar errors in the thread title? It should be "UN -- losing its worth."

LOL! I think that was one of the best and most educational threads we've actually had on these boards.
post #29 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
Israel should just boot them all out and into the neighboring countries like Syria, Iran, and Pakistan. enough is enough let those crazy muslims deal with some more crazy muslims. Arafat had his chance and he blew it. Israel has shown too much restraint in my H.O. Also if we dont have the balls to blow up Irans nuc making base then maybe they will. last thing the world needs is crazy muslims with the bomb.

Besides being a morally repulsive idea and a gross violation of international law, neither Iran or Pakistan is an immediate neighbor of Israel.

And Pakistan, a Muslim state, already has nuclear weapons.
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post #30 of 41
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by ColanderOfDeath
I'm OK with the UN been weak some of the time. And I don't see how a strong UN could effect change in this matter anyway. What are they going to do, send troops in to tear down the wall and entirely man the green line?

How about putting up an economic embargo against these nations? It is not like these nations have enough natural resources to sustain themselves. The WTO is going to collapse , imo.
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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post #31 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by gobble gobble
Besides being a morally repulsive idea and a gross violation of international law, neither Iran or Pakistan is an immediate neighbor of Israel.

And Pakistan, a Muslim state, already has nuclear weapons.

yeah we know and thats going to be a big problem if a theocracy takes charge. the last thing we need or want is Iran getting the bomb. why the hell Bush and Israel is putting up with it is f........nuts. I dont care at all about political correctness or the U.N. and all their stupid ways when it comes to nuclear material. Iran should not be allowed at any cost to obtain this. The U.N is a U.S bashing place to meet while asking for our help,aid etc. U.N is good for a few things like immunizations,health, etc but when it comes to Nukes they have done nothing with Korea and for the most part with Iran. we still have Pakistan to worry about. remember this country is half islamic. we need to shut this crap down from Iran period.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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post #32 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
And at what point did I say "They took the land from Palestine?"

I don't recall saying that. What I did say was to look up who inhabited that land before the UN turned it into a new Israeli state.

Actually, Jews and Arabs occupied the land, controlled by Britain and previous to that, The Ottoman Empire. Whats your point?
post #33 of 41
Heres my opinion why the UN constantly puts out resolutions repudiating Israel while ignoring homicide bombings against Israeli citizens, etc.
Because the pussies of the world want to say to Islamic Terrorists-"look, we're criticizing Israel, now please dont hurt us"
The UN is so obviously biased it negates any affect its resolutions have in Israel.
As for the wall, Israel does need to bring it closer to the border with the West Bank. They should take a little land to use as a buffer zone, empty the farther out settlements, build a wall then tell the palestinians "There, this is your State, now that you cant get in to kill us you can kill each other."
That is exactly what is going to happen-and isnt it funny that israels neighboring states do not want Israel to cede border security to the palestinians. I guess their 'brothers' trust Israel more than they trust Palestinians.
post #34 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Actually, Jews and Arabs occupied the land, controlled by Britain and previous to that, The Ottoman Empire. Whats your point?

That many of the people blowing shit up in Israel are the sons and daughters of the people whose land was taken away from them when the Israeli state was created. Obviously, the Jews that lived there prior to this weren't upset about suddenly being put under the authority of a Jewish faith based government, so that's why they aren't blowing stuff up.

However, the muslims that lived there most certainly were, and continue to be, quite redassed about it. They feel they have a right to land they lived on before the UN stepped in, took it away, and gave it to people with which those muslims have had long standing faith based feuds with. Which means they disagree with apple_a_day's claim that the Palestinians have no claim to Israeli land. Which in turn means they feel the fence is indeed being built through their land and is therefor a land grab.

Does that clarify things for you?
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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post #35 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
That many of the people blowing shit up in Israel are the sons and daughters of the people whose land was taken away from them when the Israeli state was created. Obviously, the Jews that lived there prior to this weren't upset about suddenly being put under the authority of a Jewish faith based government, so that's why they aren't blowing stuff up.

However, the muslims that lived there most certainly were, and continue to be, quite redassed about it. They feel they have a right to land they lived on before the UN stepped in, took it away, and gave it to people with which those muslims have had long standing faith based feuds with. Which means they disagree with apple_a_day's claim that the Palestinians have no claim to Israeli land. Which in turn means they feel the fence is indeed being built through their land and is therefor a land grab.

Does that clarify things for you?

They didnt take it, the arabs living there ran away when their Arab neighbors decided to wage war against the tiny plot of land declared to be called Israel.
I dont see Mexicans blowing up Californians and Texans.
You have a easy way of appeasing senseless murder.
post #36 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
They didnt take it, the arabs living there ran away when their Arab neighbors decided to wage war against the tiny plot of land declared to be called Israel.
I dont see Mexicans blowing up Californians and Texans.
You have a easy way of appeasing senseless murder.

Appeasing murder am I?

I'm not sure I ever claimed to support the Palestinians or their tactics. I encourage you to find one single instance where I did.

What I did say was that the Palestinians disagree with the current situation as described by apple_a_day. If you feel that to be an inaccurate statement, feel free to educate me.

But refrain from putting words in my mouth and making inaccurate analysis of what I said in the future.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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post #37 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
Appeasing murder am I?

I'm not sure I ever claimed to support the Palestinians or their tactics. I encourage you to find one single instance where I did.

What I did say was that the Palestinians disagree with the current situation as described by apple_a_day. If you feel that to be an inaccurate statement, feel free to educate me.

But refrain from putting words in my mouth and making inaccurate analysis of what I said in the future.

>That many of the people blowing shit up in Israel are the sons and daughters of the people whose land was taken away from them when the Israeli state was created. Obviously, the Jews that lived there prior to this weren't upset about suddenly being put under the authority of a Jewish faith based government, so that's why they aren't blowing stuff up.<

Sounds to me like you're making an excuse why they are blowing 'stuff' up. The 'stuff'happens to be innocent women and children. Perhaps you need to look at what you post before questioning my analysis. It sure looked to me that you were giving a legitimate reason for them to blow 'stuff' up.
post #38 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
>That many of the people blowing shit up in Israel are the sons and daughters of the people whose land was taken away from them when the Israeli state was created. Obviously, the Jews that lived there prior to this weren't upset about suddenly being put under the authority of a Jewish faith based government, so that's why they aren't blowing stuff up.<

Sounds to me like you're making an excuse why they are blowing 'stuff' up. The 'stuff'happens to be innocent women and children. Perhaps you need to look at what you post before questioning my analysis. It sure looked to me that you were giving a legitimate reason for them to blow 'stuff' up.

Well then you are reading what you want to read. What I wrote was factually accurate, and in no way expressed support for either side. Unfortunately, you found intent where none existed. I can't make a post that everyone will read and interpret the exact same way. Especially on such a polarizing topic.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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post #39 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
Well then you are reading what you want to read. What I wrote was factually accurate, and in no way expressed support for either side. Unfortunately, you found intent where none existed. I can't make a post that everyone will read and interpret the exact same way. Especially on such a polarizing topic.

alright, well then lets just leave it at that.
post #40 of 41
Hey, can a mod fix the annoying misspelling in the thread title?

Loose: Not tight; slack.
Lose: Misplace; be defeated; lose possession of.
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