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DNC General Discussion - Page 3

post #81 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
No need to get snippy. But when saying "it's wrong period." you are insinuating that any opinion to the contrary is also wrong. I think both sides have compelling arguments to make and that it's tough to label either as right or wrong.

That is fair.

I understand what you are saying.

I am simply speaking in terms of my opinion. That is all.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #82 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
That is fair.

I understand what you are saying.

I am simply speaking in terms of my opinion. That is all.

Fellows

Understood. And I respect your opinion. And on that note, I'm beat so good night to you and everyone else!
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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post #83 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Wow.

John Nichols of The Nation reports that the Democratic Party platform drops support of death penalty. That's significant.

Excellent news. This means the DLC's grip on the party is lessening.
post #84 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
I've got a question-- is this actually the Democratic party? I mean, they seem to be staying on message and presenting an appealingly united front and anyone watching might be forgiven for believing they have coherent world view backed up by strategy.

And we all know that the Dems are famously fractious and undisciplined and oddly accommodating to some of their least domesticated voices.....

So who stole all the Democrats and put these orderly folk in their place?

I dunno, but I'm liking the sound of these humanoid-dressed green space aliens. I think the "we are one nation, don't let them divide us" message really resonates, and I appreciate the heavy emphasis on "hope, not fear". There's still a lack of specifics (when isn't there), but I don't think they could be playing the "message" any better.

I absolutely loved the bit in Obama's speech about (paraphasing heavily) "if there's a kid in the South Side of Chicago who can't read, I care, even if it's not my kid; if there's a senior citizen who can't pay for drugs and make ends meet, I care, even if it's not my grandparent; if there's an Arab-American family who gets rounded up, I lose my own civil liberties." Such an awesome summary of the funamental liberal (and Christian) value of caring for thy neighbors, the Golden Rule for the 21st century. Together with the "we worship an awesome god in the blue states, and have gay friends in the red states" strain of national unity, I think this is the new Third Way for Democrats.

I tuned into the middle of Obama's speech, and wound up sitting through PBS's rerun of the evening so I could catch the beginning of it. The guy was mesmerizing. Great message, great delivery. You could just feel him and the crowd feeding off of each other as he hit his stride. He's definitely going places. It's almost too bad he'll likely sit out the next eight years in the Senate, unlike a certain other Illinois state senator phenom. And too bad for the nation that no network deemed any part of tonight worthy of broadcast. I wonder if it'll become the first mass bit-torrent'ed political speech?
post #85 of 262
The Obama bandwagon, alllll aboarrrrrrrrd!

Can we please not make the typical mistake of fawning over a black man as being "articulate" and "intelligent" as if it is some aberration rather than the norm? This is the same insult as calling Theresa Heinz Kerry "opinionated".

Tens of thousands of other black men, if put in the same situation, will give equally powerful, heartfelt, motivational speeches. It is the fact that we ignore 99% of them and only one gets to speak, that is so telling.

Yes, he's great. Awesome speech. He'll be a wonderful leader. He is not however, the second coming of Christ.
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post #86 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
skmdc, are you voting for Obama in November?

yes i voted for him in the primary as well.
post #87 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by Existence
OMG. I absolutely love Teresa Heinz Kerry. I wish she was born in this country so she could run for president.

Teresa Hienz Kerry > all

Of course you do. I think she's repulsive.
Mr. Gorbachev, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!
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Mr. Gorbachev, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!
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post #88 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship

Obama is amazing in skill and tact and will be President one day.

Obama is a leader who uses the strengths of unity and inspiration to lead.

Fellowship

he wasn't born in the u.s.a. so unless the constitution is amended, senator is as high as he can go.
post #89 of 262
Back to the convention itself:

Clinton gave a very good speech. I never liked Clinton, but regardless...it was good.

Kennedy and Carter apparently didn't get the "stay positive" message.

It's been quite boring overall. Apparently Mr. Rather agrees, which is surprising.

I watched the Micheal Moore/O'Reilly interview. Anyone else? As much as I despise Moore and disagree with him, he came off as more articulate than I thought he would.

Discussion point: If Kerry/Edwards don't get a significant bounce from the convention, what does that mean? The whole thing just doesn't seem as energized as in 2000 and I'm wondering how this is all going to reflect in the polls next week.
Mr. Gorbachev, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!
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Mr. Gorbachev, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!
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post #90 of 262
Quote:
Can we please not make the typical mistake of fawning over a black man as being "articulate" and "intelligent" as if it is some aberration rather than the norm?

Bullshit.

I wonder, will it be possible to like a black politician ever without some jagoff claiming it is white condescension?

You shouldn't quote things people don't say to try and make a point, it is disingenuous.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #91 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
he wasn't born in the u.s.a. so unless the constitution is amended, senator is as high as he can go.

hawaii, actually
post #92 of 262
Quote:
Discussion point: If Kerry/Edwards don't get a significant bounce from the convention, what does that mean?

Nothing at all.
Since when do conventions give these "15 point bounces" that has been the Republican talking point lately?

It is nothing more than setting the Democrats up for a fall by creating the expectation of something that never happens and, naturally, people are falling right in line.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #93 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
he wasn't born in the u.s.a. so unless the constitution is amended, senator is as high as he can go.

You don't have to be born in the bounds of the united states to be eligible for the presidency. You do have to be a natural born US citizen though which includes children born abroud of citizens.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #94 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
hawaii, actually

my bad, i thought he was born in kenya.
post #95 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
Can we please not make the typical mistake of fawning over a black man as being "articulate" and "intelligent" as if it is some aberration rather than the norm?

Those sound more like comparisons to the current president than to other black males. I think we have just been so accustomed to incompetent politicians running this country for the past few years it's refreshing to remember that it can be better.
post #96 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
I find it interesting Bill O'reileys interview with Michael Moore at the convention. Bill who has no children that im aware says he would sacrifice his kids in fallujah when Michael Moore asked him while Moore would not. now who is the frickin Zealot? and this is after finding out there wasnt no WMDs. No spin Bill lost lots of points with me after that very stupid remark. its easy to send someone else kids to die for a lost cause. truely amazing and yet another reason to vote against George and the zealots. lets see he and Cheney avoided vietnam interesting isnt it.

Moore is a propagandist, and he was using propaganda, no surprise there, aye?

As far as the "sending our children", who do you suggest the US send?

And lest we all forget amidst all the DNC hoo ha, it is an all volunteer military. Conversely, wouldn't that mean that they were sending themselves? I think that was O's point.

As far as the "misled the American People" propaganda goes, three independent entities have found that to be an untrue notion. So if you choose to believe Moore over them, that is your own stubbornness at play.

But anyway, I watched Clinton's speech, and I will give the ex-POTUS credit - he is a great speech giver. And I agree with many here that if he had used a little foresight to keep out of the scandals he would have been a great spokesman for the Democratic party.

Every time I see him, I can't help but remember "I did not have sexual relations with that woman - Monica Lewinski." What a HUGE mistake for him and his party.

His tone was good, and I am glad to see that the Bush bashing has been curtailed by the Kerry crew.

One thing that makes me wonder though, why didn't Leberman get the VP nod? Or better yet, the Dem. Nomination? He is a great guy with lots of experience, he is honest and seems to be straight as an arrow. You would see huge crossover votes for him, for sure.

I guess it is all about the superficial things...
post #97 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Wow.

John Nichols of The Nation reports that the Democratic Party platform drops support of death penalty. That's significant.

That is interesting. Kerry, unlike Clinton, has been an opponent of the death penalty, although in typically Kerry fashion, he now supports it for terrorists. But I think views have changed about the death penalty since the DNA releases have been happening.

But I heard that the only thing the platform will say about Iraq is "we agree to disagree." Uh, yeah?
post #98 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Reagan
Discussion point: If Kerry/Edwards don't get a significant bounce from the convention, what does that mean? The whole thing just doesn't seem as energized as in 2000 and I'm wondering how this is all going to reflect in the polls next week.

I don't think anyone's getting any significant bounces this time around, because the undecideds are so much smaller than usual.
post #99 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Bullshit.

I wonder, will it be possible to like a black politician ever without some jagoff claiming it is white condescension?

You shouldn't quote things people don't say to try and make a point, it is disingenuous.

Not condescension. Soothing their own guilt.

Follow along. I wasn't quoting a person. Quotes can be used in other contexts. The context in which I used them were to hilight them as examples of words I am hoping are not used to excess.

Condi Rice was already a victim of that, doubly. "Smart", "articulate" black woman? SHOCK! My God, what a stunning rarity! (That's how it comes off).

There is a kind of racism, or at least misguided insults, in which (for example) whites inflate a black person's abilities and traits to extremes (even if actually remarkable) in order to turn them into an example of the white's own "progressiveness" and "tolerance" in a self congratulatory "see how far we've come" kind of way which ends up not benefiting the person they are referring to (or their race/sex), since they are probably still quite rare in number in the field in which they are in.

Excessive praise is a form of racism/sexism/etc. It's a signal of guilt. It makes the praiser feel great and the praised feel used. As if "okay, Obama is here, our system is wonderful, it works, the struggle is over". He'd tell you no, it ain't. It's still only begun.

America needs more than convention hilights and sound clip darlings that get forgotten a week later. There's a personality hype juggernaut in this country that cares not about message or results, only frenzy.

I, and I think Obama would too, look forward to the day where Obama is no more remarkable than any white politician. Because this isn't about Obama, it's about his message. If he is remarkable, something is still wrong.

The insta-hype is only indicative of how rare blacks are even amongst Democrat politicians.

He does give good message though. And yes, I'd rather him than Kerry. Am I succumbing?

--

No direct quotes were used in this post. Can you dig it?
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post #100 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
Excessive praise is a form of racism/sexism/etc. It's a signal of guilt.

You know why this is all BS? Because in the primaries it was latino Chico, white millionaire hull, white Hynes, Obama, some crazy white woman who is some sort of liberal radion personality and black Joyce Washington. People still loved Obama. My neighborhood was covered with signs for him during the primaries.

People have been praising Clinton's speech for the exact same thing. Problem is, Clinton's out. But look at the praise he still gets anyway. Is it racism?

This is just a case of you seeing what you want to see, and I think it reveals far more about you than anyone else. According to you, people don't support him for his schooling in international affairs, his harvard law degree, his connection with their views or even his competence or intelligence. According to you, everyone just likes him because he's black.

Let's just ignore that he's far more qualified for any position in government (or anywhere, for that matter) than the current president.
post #101 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by Towel
I think the "we are one nation, don't let them divide us" message really resonates, and I appreciate the heavy emphasis on "hope, not fear". There's still a lack of specifics (when isn't there), but I don't think they could be playing the "message" any better.

I absolutely loved the bit in Obama's speech about (paraphasing heavily) "if there's a kid in the South Side of Chicago who can't read, I care, even if it's not my kid; if there's a senior citizen who can't pay for drugs and make ends meet, I care, even if it's not my grandparent; if there's an Arab-American family who gets rounded up, I lose my own civil liberties." Such an awesome summary of the funamental liberal (and Christian) value of caring for thy neighbors, the Golden Rule for the 21st century. Together with the "we worship an awesome god in the blue states, and have gay friends in the red states" strain of national unity, I think this is the new Third Way for Democrats.

I tuned into the middle of Obama's speech, and wound up sitting through PBS's rerun of the evening so I could catch the beginning of it. The guy was mesmerizing. Great message, great delivery. You could just feel him and the crowd feeding off of each other as he hit his stride. He's definitely going places.

If ever there were a "Leader" I would enjoy voting for it is Obama. For all the reasons you list above in your well said statements.

Obama represents what it is I stand for... Some of you have seen me change my politics over time here at AI / AO over the last few years and seen my frustration at not wanting to even vote...

Obama has inspired me with his message. His message is one which I would gladly embrace and campaign for aggressively.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #102 of 262
No, you're seeing what you want to see in my statements. I already said that i was talking about hype over and above existing remarkable skills.

He's liked because he's eminently likable, from his own actions and ideas.

However the hype machine is tripping over itself (particularly CNN) to create a god.

That he can rise above other politicians from his own hard work and talent is obvious.

"Hype" does not inherently mean the person or thing being hyped is in anyway inadequate or not excellent. You seem to want it to mean that. Anything to paint me as racist.
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post #103 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
You know why this is all BS? Because in the primaries it was latino Chico, white millionaire hull, white Hynes, Obama, some crazy white woman who is some sort of liberal radion personality and black Joyce Washington. People still loved Obama. My neighborhood was covered with signs for him during the primaries.

People have been praising Clinton's speech for the exact same thing. Problem is, Clinton's out. But look at the praise he still gets anyway. Is it racism?

This is just a case of you seeing what you want to see, and I think it reveals far more about you than anyone else. According to you, people don't support him for his schooling in international affairs, his harvard law degree, his connection with their views or even his competence or intelligence. According to you, everyone just likes him because he's black.

Let's just ignore that he's far more qualified for any position in government (or anywhere, for that matter) than the current president.

Well said. I would also say, though, that his race does matter. I think people can recognize that blacks have been under-represented in the senate, and realize the importance of having such an appealing black senator, without any condescension like johnq puts it.

I just can't quite get over the name Obama. It's just too close. His name might as well be Adolf Bitler.
post #104 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Can you be more specific?

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?cont...=104&subid=210

He's been prominently featured on the DLC website.
post #105 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Well said. I would also say, though, that his race does matter. I think people can recognize that blacks have been under-represented in the senate, and realize the importance of having such an appealing black senator, without any condescension like johnq puts it.

I just can't quite get over the name Obama. It's just too close. His name might as well be Adolf Bitler.

You say that blacks are under-represented in the senate. How many black senators are there?
post #106 of 262
Clinton's being praised solely because we need to make the country reminisce about the glory days of Bubbanomics when the economy was truly roaring. We need to equate Clinton = Democrat = Good Economy to the masses. Clinton himself is irrelevant if not a liability (but thankfully memories are short).

Obama on the other hand is new blood, speaking exactly the right message, with exactly the energy and temperament required.
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post #107 of 262
THK said that under her husband, global warming will be reversed.

I am going to register as a dem and vote for him now.
post #108 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
You say that blacks are under-represented in the senate. How many black senators are there?

I think it stands at a resounding 0% right now. There have been some in the past of course, like Carol Mosley-Braun also from Illinos.
post #109 of 262
error
post #110 of 262
error
post #111 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I think it stands at a resounding 0% right now. There have been some in the past of course, like Carol Mosley-Braun also from Illinos.

Really.

Then it would seem that you are correct in say that they are under-represented. Indeed.
post #112 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I think it stands at a resounding 0% right now. There have been some in the past of course, like Carol Mosley-Braun also from Illinos.

Really.

Then it would seem that you are correct in say that they are under-represented. Indeed.
post #113 of 262
error
post #114 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I think it stands at a resounding 0% right now. There have been some in the past of course, like Carol Mosley-Braun also from Illinos.

Really.

Then it would seem that you are correct in say that they are under-represented. Indeed.
post #115 of 262
error
post #116 of 262
error
post #117 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I think it stands at a resounding 0% right now. There have been some in the past of course, like Carol Mosley-Braun also from Illinos.

Really.

Then it would seem that you are correct in say that they are under-represented. Indeed.
post #118 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I think it stands at a resounding 0% right now. There have been some in the past of course, like Carol Mosley-Braun also from Illinos.

Really.

Then it would seem that you are correct in say that they are under-represented. Indeed.
post #119 of 262
man, the db really freaked out that time.
post #120 of 262
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
Clinton's being praised solely because we need to make the country reminisce about the glory days of Bubbanomics when the economy was truly roaring.

Try reading the first page of this thread.
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