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Apple heated over Real's Harmony

post #1 of 97
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Apple Computer on Thursday issued an official statement on RealNetworks' Harmony software, which will allow users to play songs purchased from RealNetworks' music store on the iPod.

In the brief statement, Apple said, "We are stunned that RealNetworks has adopted the tactics and ethics of a hacker to break into the iPod, and we are investigating the implications of their actions under the DMCA and other laws. We strongly caution Real and their customers that when we update our iPod software from time to time it is highly likely that Real's Harmony technology will cease to work with current and future iPods."

In March of this year, RealNetworks CEO Rob Glaser exhorted Apple to open up the iPod to additional file formats during a panel discussion at PC Forum. Glaser said "that Apple is creating problems for itself by using a file format that forces consumers to buy music from Apple's own iTunes site. Because Apple's iPod music player does not support other proprietary music formats and does not license its own format to rivals, Real's Rhapsody and other song sites are blocked from easily reaching iPod users. Apple's (market) share will go down if they continue to do this."

With no favorable response from Apple, Glaser e-mailed Apple chief Steve Jobs a month later, pleading for the formation of a "strategic partnership" in which RealNetworks would obtain a license for Apple's Fairplay Digital Rights Management (DRM) technology. In return, Glaser said that RealNetworks would make the iPod its primary device for the Real music store and its RealPlayer software.

Apple was less than interested and quickly shot down RealNetworks' offer, also denying Glaser a meeting with CEO Steve Jobs to discuss the matter.

On Monday, RealNetworks announced its Harmony technology, that when released will allow users to play music bought and downloaded from its online music store on the iPod. To create Harmony, RealNetworks created a way to translate songs downloaded from Real's store from Real's Helix DRM scheme to an equivalent of Apple's FairPlay when loaded onto an iPod.

Earlier today, RealNetworks began threatening to license its Harmony Technology to the many digital online music stores.

In an anonymous e-mail to AppleInsider this morning, one source claims that Apple has already assembled a small software engineering team that will focus on disabling RealNetworks' hack.
post #2 of 97
Oh this is going to get mighty interesting. *sits down with a bag of popcorn and watches*
post #3 of 97
agreed. very interesting. i keep thinking, isn't this type of thinking what hurt Apple in the PC race? i think they should have licensed the technology. iPod owners will still favor the Apple Store. but they could really corner the MP3 player market if they licensed FairPlay.

--
lance
post #4 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by AppleInsider
Glaser said "that Apple is creating problems for itself by using a file format that forces consumers to buy music from Apple's own iTunes site. Because Apple's iPod music player does not support other proprietary music formats and does not license its own format to rivals, Real's Rhapsody and other song sites are blocked from easily reaching iPod users. Apple's (market) share will go down if they continue to do this."


It plays AAC, MP3, Audible, WAV... yup, seems to be creating one hell of a problem for Apple.
post #5 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by rlindeman
It plays AAC, MP3, Audible, WAV... yup, seems to be creating one hell of a problem for Apple.

THANK YOU! i just got finished posting this in another site, but it bears repeating (and because i just want to hear myself type...)

(*************************)

The mythical "closed" iPod

you know what really irks me? it's that real and even the news keep harping on "oh, the ipod can only play apple's itunes music, and that's not fair..."

no, no, No, No, a MILLION TIMES NO!!!!!!

you know how you play non-iTunes Music Store purchases on an iPod? you go to the friggin' record store and do what you did before the iPod existed... YOU BUY THE CD AND RIP IT TO AN MP3.

THAT, my friends, is apple's counter to ANY argument about how "closed" the iPod is, or for a friend of mine who is still in OS 9 and is mad that Apple' is "making" him upgrade in order to buy songs. um, no. they're just telling you to do what you've been doing all along. sure, the EASY WAY is also APPLE'S WAY, but how the heck is that unfair? even if they don't get you to buy ANY songs from the iTMS, Apple is STILL giving you an MP3 encoder for free download. what, you want them to hold your non-mousing hand for you while you rip 'em???

anyway, i know i am preaching to the choir here, but it bears repeating every once in a while.
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
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When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
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post #6 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by rok
THANK YOU! i just got finished posting this in another site, but it bears repeating (and because i just want to hear myself type...)

(*************************)

The mythical "closed" iPod

you know what really irks me? it's that real and even the news keep harping on "oh, the ipod can only play apple's itunes music, and that's not fair..."

no, no, No, No, a MILLION TIMES NO!!!!!!

you know how you play non-iTunes Music Store purchases on an iPod? you go to the friggin' record store and do what you did before the iPod existed... YOU BUY THE CD AND RIP IT TO AN MP3.

THAT, my friends, is apple's counter to ANY argument about how "closed" the iPod is, or for a friend of mine who is still in OS 9 and is mad that Apple' is "making" him upgrade in order to buy songs. um, no. they're just telling you to do what you've been doing all along. sure, the EASY WAY is also APPLE'S WAY, but how the heck is that unfair? even if they don't get you to buy ANY songs from the iTMS, Apple is STILL giving you an MP3 encoder for free download. what, you want them to hold your non-mousing hand for you while you rip 'em???

anyway, i know i am preaching to the choir here, but it bears repeating every once in a while.

Personally, I think the 'closed iPod myth' is just FUD (what else is new) that is spread around by the losers in this market (read: everyone BUT Apple). Thankfully, the average consumer seems to be smarter when choosing a portable music player than they do buying a computer.

You know it irks those companies to see a computer company that is written off in so many ways totally dominate this new arena.

One last thing. Raise your hands if you're gonna miss Real once Apple mops the floor with 'em?

(crickets chirping)

Thought so.
Never Doubt Apple.
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"Don't let the noise of other's opinions drown out your own inner voice." -Steve Jobs
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Never Doubt Apple.
---------------------------

"Don't let the noise of other's opinions drown out your own inner voice." -Steve Jobs
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post #7 of 97
The iPod will only play "protected" AAC files from iTms.

That's REAL's issue.

When apple sees the necessity to license fairplay they will. Not a moment sooner.

Thats Apples issue.
post #8 of 97
The issue is that of DRM. The companies want to be in a position to make money and please the recond companies. DRM works for them, as long as they are in control of it. In the long run, what hurts customers hurts competing vendors.

Myself I will not buy any DRM music, since it limits where and how I can listen to my music. Nor will I buy 'copy protected' CDs that also limit the manner in which I can listen to my music. This means online stores, such as iTunes and Sony Connect will not have my business and any artists who's CDs are copy protected won't either. Another reason for not getting into online music is that you pay for an inferior version of the recording.

DRM is ugly and it is a potential tool for creating a monopolies. DMCA is also a tool with a potential for creating monopolies. We are currently having our choices dictated by big business. I like Apple, but there are certain things that I will not accept, no matter the company.

At the same time Apple does need to loosen up a little, with regards to Fair Play. But how much is up to them and how much is up to avoiding problems with the record companies, it is hard to tell.

For me its a matter of principle.
post #9 of 97
I personally would like to express my appreciation to Real for their timely release of Harmony. We still have 32 days before the iMac is going to be announced and need something to keep our minds busy so the days will go faster.

Apple is going to vigorously defend their intellectual rights related to the ipod, iTunes and The Music Store in the courts, where Real is probably going to pay more in legal fees than they earn from downloads. It will probably end up as a case study in MBA programs and students will have a ball tearing Real to pieces for being that stupid.

What is probably most important to Apple is protecting their control over their integrated music offering. They have spent a lot of time, money and the resources of some very talented, innovative people to develop their hardware & software and they are going to protect it with the same vigor as they do their Macs. Actually, the iPod is very much like a Mac. Designed by Apple to be not only different, but better. And just like the Mac the iPod provides a great user experience, especially when compared to the competition.

The other important thing to remember is that Harmony may be a piece of crap. Just because Real says it is wonderful doesn't mean it is. I would LMAO if using Harmony is the equivalent of infecting your computer with a sexually transmitted disease.
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post #10 of 97
Ken explains it all too well.

Apple is doing what they've always done: creating an excellent user-experience for people that buy their products.

I don't think they want some punk-ass motherfucker shit all over the controlled ecosystem they built. Harmony allows people to wander out of the beautiful sunny neighborhood and into the neighborhood full of prostitutes, drugs and crime. Not very harmonious, IMO. The user-experience is broken when things like that happen.

I don't blame Apple on bit for what they're doing.

And I don't blame Microsoft and AOL and Yahoo one bit for changing their protocols to foil 3rd-party IM clients...sure the 1st-party clients suck ass but the companies are trying to keep a clean community but it's being polluted by strangers.
post #11 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Ken explains it all too well.

Apple is doing what they've always done: creating an excellent user-experience for people that buy their products.

I don't think they want some punk-ass motherfucker shit all over the controlled ecosystem they built. Harmony allows people to wander out of the beautiful sunny neighborhood and into the neighborhood full of prostitutes, drugs and crime. Not very harmonious, IMO. The user-experience is broken when things like that happen.

I don't blame Apple on bit for what they're doing.

And I don't blame Microsoft and AOL and Yahoo one bit for changing their protocols to foil 3rd-party IM clients...sure the 1st-party clients suck ass but the companies are trying to keep a clean community but it's being polluted by strangers.

Nice Analogys, I think its important to state that the experience while being almost gauranteed using iTunes is comprimised when using 3rd party translation tools. Apples reputation is also comprimised by the iPods ability to play or not play the songs translated through Harmony and possibly at a subpar quality than otherwise purchased on the iTunes music store. I personally dont see or understand the reasoning behind someone buying an iPod and then wanting to go someplace else to purchase the music aside from the occasional artist who isnt available at the ITMS. All things being the same whats the reason anyone would want to use an iPod with one of these other sites....I havent seen anyone whoring out songs at $.25 or anything.
post #12 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Ken explains it all too well.

But you still felt the need translate...

Quote:
I don't think they want some punk-ass motherfucker shit all over the controlled ecosystem they built.
post #13 of 97
Not like REAL EVER got mad at anybody for messing with their formats, like Streambox or anybody. I mean, they never sued anybody to shut that type of behavior down or anything...
post #14 of 97
This can turn into a real (pun intended) public relations fiasco for Apple. Constantly revising the iTunes software to disable songs people have downloaded from Rhapsody to play on their iPods could bring class action suits. Glaser, to my thinking, really has Apple between a rock and a hard place on this. The legal ramifications are not clear either. The best Apple may be able to do is get an injunction to have Real cease and desist. Then it could turn into a long battle until one party flinches. Even though I dislike Glaser and his way of doing business, he may eventually win this. Time will tell.
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post #15 of 97
To me, Real did this whole thing out of malice when Apple decided to not license FairPlay.

Real may win in the courts if Apple did sue but nothing's stopping Apple from revising the firmware or even crippling iPods that are found with Rhapsodized songs. What's stopping Apple from doing that? Blizzard does it with cheaters and hackers in Diablo 2...CD keys are suspended or banned completely. Wouldn't you be mad if you bought an iPod and, because you're not playing fair (haha, pun not exactly intended), you lose privilege to use your iPod the way you're supposed to?

If you can't scare the Big Boys...scare the users.

If this hacker behavior is tolerated, Apple should just reverse-engineer Real codecs and distribute them with QuickTime.
post #16 of 97
I don't know guys. This sounds like a Little-guys-fighting-a-monopoly sort of thing to me. Yes, the iPod can play MP3, AAC, and Apple's uncompressed format, but there are a lot of other formats out there whether you like them or not. Apple owns the #1 portable music player and now actively prevents you from using anyone else's other online music store. That eerily resembles a cretin software company we all love to hate.

I think Real may have a case here.
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post #17 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by Ebby
I don't know guys. This sounds like a Little-guys-fighting-a-monopoly sort of thing to me. Yes, the iPod can play MP3, AAC, and Apple's uncompressed format, but there are a lot of other formats out there whether you like them or not. Apple owns the #1 portable music player and now actively prevents you from using anyone else's other online music store. That eerily resembles a cretin software company we all love to hate.

I think Real may have a case here.

Can't blame 'em if they want to keep a sane user-experience environment. Real has nothing.

Apple is not a monopoly just yet. A lot of things can happen in the next 3 years. If Apple doesn't play their cards right today, MS could take over when their service is out and I don't think they'll be worrying about stepping on anyone's toes.

What do you prefer...that Apple maintains their stance (even though it seems harsh for others) so that they're guaranteed to be established in 3 years...and then license out...or allow MS to trample Apple once again? If MS tramples, kiss AAC, iTMS and good user-experiences goodbye.
post #18 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by Playmaker
I personally dont see or understand the reasoning behind someone buying an iPod and then wanting to go someplace else to purchase the music aside from the occasional artist who isnt available at the ITMS. All things being the same whats the reason anyone would want to use an iPod with one of these other sites....I havent seen anyone whoring out songs at $.25 or anything.

So you're telling me that you bought a JVC TV set and only expect to get transmissions from JVC, or that you bought a Panasonic CD player from Amazon and therefore should only be buying your music from Amazon or Panasonic? Since when does anyone buy a device and then expect not to have the right to choose what they do with it afterwards?
post #19 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by Ebby
I don't know guys. This sounds like a Little-guys-fighting-a-monopoly sort of thing to me. Yes, the iPod can play MP3, AAC, and Apple's uncompressed format, but there are a lot of other formats out there whether you like them or not. Apple owns the #1 portable music player and now actively prevents you from using anyone else's other online music store. That eerily resembles a cretin software company we all love to hate.

I think Real may have a case here.

Oh pleeeze! Its nothing like the Microsnot situation. Its a spoiling play by a company on its way down the toilet. It needs carful handling by Apple in a PR sense but in reality nothing is goiing to come of it. Its a joke.
post #20 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by ajmas
So you're telling me that you bought a JVC TV set and only expect to get transmissions from JVC, or that you bought a Panasonic CD player from Amazon and therefore should only be buying your music from Amazon or Panasonic? Since when does anyone buy a device and then expect not to have the right to choose what they do with it afterwards?

Totally false analogy. Seems to be a common problem around here at the moment.
post #21 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by ajmas
So you're telling me that you bought a JVC TV set and only expect to get transmissions from JVC, or that you bought a Panasonic CD player from Amazon and therefore should only be buying your music from Amazon or Panasonic? Since when does anyone buy a device and then expect not to have the right to choose what they do with it afterwards?

Those are by far the worst analogies I've seen. None of your post makes any sense.

There are restrictions on many devices out there. If you buy a Sony digital camera, you're forced to buy Sony MemorySticks. If you buy a Net Walkman, you're forced to use ATRAC3.

If a company says you have to use a product a certain way, and you agree by buying it, then it's your problem if you want to use it some other way.
post #22 of 97
Read a post where someone tried the Harmony beta and found that it replaced their iTunes. Does any one here have an old POS PC that that they can test Harmony on? Might turn out to be a Real dog.
Ken
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post #23 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
There are restrictions on many devices out there. If you buy a Sony digital camera, you're forced to buy Sony MemorySticks.

True, but there are cheap MemoryStick adapters for sale that will allow you to use a memory stick on non-sony computers. If Sony outlawed these adapters, would you still have a Sony camera?

The same way Microsoft is bundling and integrating IE in windows, Apple is doing for the iPod and iTunes. That got Microsoft in lots of trouble. Now, this combination is working really well for Apple, but when they specifically target and disable alternate and legitimate options to the #1 music player, that is by definition, a monopoly.

I know, I don't like it either, but This same sort of thing happened to PacBell years ago. They owned almost all the telephone networks and they were sued and ordered to open their networks to the little guys so they could have a piece of the action. This added competition and kept the prices down which was good for the consumer but bad for PacBell.

I actually look forward to the outcome of this situation because if Apple has to allow Real to access the iPod, we will see some great competition and deals between all internet music companies. Apple got there first, and they are bathing in riches, but now Real is rocking the boat.
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post #24 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by ajmas
So you're telling me that you bought a JVC TV set and only expect to get transmissions from JVC, or that you bought a Panasonic CD player from Amazon and therefore should only be buying your music from Amazon or Panasonic? Since when does anyone buy a device and then expect not to have the right to choose what they do with it afterwards?


ok, without virtual PCor native m$ for mac software from M$ how do you run microsoft products on your apple?

Apple products run apple stuff!

same analogy.

Apple has made some doozies when it comes to the mistake and misjudge departments but on this one I think that they are right. They developed the product and the market and it is winning over all of the other crap offered and now those companies with shrinking market share , and who would have the conumer and Appe begging for a crumb are crying NO FAIR.

go apple.

Apple wins & the consumer wins

all good!
post #25 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by TednDi
Apple products run apple stuff!

You can also run Linux as the OS. (Not from Apple)
You can run Adobe Photoshop. (Not from Apple)
I'm not sure quite what it does, but the X11 stuff seems to emulate PC stuff. Well, it looks funky anyways. 8)

But that stuff has more to do with what kind of processor you have. PC's and Macs have different processors that operate differently.
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post #26 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by MacsRGood4U
This can turn into a real (pun intended) public relations fiasco for Apple. Constantly revising the iTunes software to disable songs people have downloaded from Rhapsody to play on their iPods could bring class action suits. Glaser, to my thinking, really has Apple between a rock and a hard place on this. The legal ramifications are not clear either. The best Apple may be able to do is get an injunction to have Real cease and desist. Then it could turn into a long battle until one party flinches. Even though I dislike Glaser and his way of doing business, he may eventually win this. Time will tell.

You are so joking and wrong.

Apple can not be sued in a class action suit by users who are using their product (iPod) with unsupported software (Harmony). That is the user's fault. Apple would say in court that they have never ever anywhere said that they would support cheapo Real media. The legal ramifications are perfectly clear- Apple would win in an instant. This WOULD NEVER turn into a long legal battle.

Apple should rev everything in a month or so just to break Real's software. Better yet, they should provide a bios update to the iPod that breaks Real's code and gives out the phone number for Real's technical support. That is what I would do if I were His Steveness. Then again, I am an evil guy who gets warm fuzzies whenever my software correctly guides a cruise missile onto target.
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post #27 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by Ebby
You can also run Linux as the OS. (Not from Apple)
You can run Adobe Photoshop. (Not from Apple)
I'm not sure quite what it does, but the X11 stuff seems to emulate PC stuff. Well, it looks funky anyways. 8)

But that stuff has more to do with what kind of processor you have. PC's and Macs have different processors that operate differently.


Adobe photoshop - In apple OSX
Linux - ok got me there I don't have much info.
X11- unix which is basis for OSX

Ipod is still an apple product and until just recently not for the PC. So, why, when apple just entered the PC market way behind its competitors should it open up its format for the world of competitors to use. It now has over 70% of the market and as any business would wants to keep it that way on apple developed hardware and apple developed software. Apple also invested millions in advertising to get the ipod where it is. Now real wants to clone itself a business model?

That is why intellectual property exists and R&D money is spent AND why apple is so frustratingly secretive about its plans.

Now what if this punk derived code fu*ks up the ipod software? Who catches blame...Apple

What if this REAL this thing is like a virus or starts to bug up the ipod. Great way to bring down apple 's dominance.

Nope with apple hardware and apple software apple controls the quality. And also it's market.

Apple, get out the UGLY stick and give REAL a swat I say!
post #28 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by Ebby
You can also run Linux as the OS. (Not from Apple)
You can run Adobe Photoshop. (Not from Apple)
I'm not sure quite what it does, but the X11 stuff seems to emulate PC stuff. Well, it looks funky anyways. 8)

But that stuff has more to do with what kind of processor you have. PC's and Macs have different processors that operate differently.

Yes, you can ditch the Mac OS, but you don't expect to continue running Linux while updating OS X. The problem is that Apple is going to update the iPod OS and Harmony is going to still be there. As a general rule of thumb, programs do not change the OS and the OS can break any program that is doing bad things. OS trumps program.

If Adobe decided to make a hacked version of photoshop that relied on undocumented/unsupported features in a given version of OS X, then they would be idiots. The OS can change and anything that is not fixed about its behavior is not guaranteed to stay the same. Apple will most definitely NOT consider Harmony in future iPod upgrades because as far as they are concerned, it is a program that is hacking the iPod OS.
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post #29 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by ajmas
So you're telling me that you bought a JVC TV set and only expect to get transmissions from JVC, or that you bought a Panasonic CD player from Amazon and therefore should only be buying your music from Amazon or Panasonic? Since when does anyone buy a device and then expect not to have the right to choose what they do with it afterwards?

No, Apple lets you play all sorts of other formats. Apple has decided to not support other protected formats. TV is like MP3- a universally available format.
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post #30 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
If a company says you have to use a product a certain way, and you agree by buying it, then it's your problem if you want to use it some other way.

Bull. Unless I've signed a contract to the contrary, I can do whatever I want with a product that I own, regardless of whether the seller approves.
post #31 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by 3.1416
Bull. Unless I've signed a contract to the contrary, I can do whatever I want with a product that I own, regardless of whether the seller approves.

Try playing a music cassette tape with your DVD player
post #32 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by Ebby
I don't know guys. This sounds like a Little-guys-fighting-a-monopoly sort of thing to me. Yes, the iPod can play MP3, AAC, and Apple's uncompressed format, but there are a lot of other formats out there whether you like them or not. Apple owns the #1 portable music player and now actively prevents you from using anyone else's other online music store. That eerily resembles a cretin software company we all love to hate.

I think Real may have a case here.

Ok, minor problem here. First, the iPod, and its user interface and such, all belong to Apple. It is Apple's complete "widget" that gives us the user experience that we all love.

To compare this to what Microsoft is doing is very short-sighted. Microsoft developed softare that could be ran on anyone's hardware. It just isn't the same as controlling the whole widget.

Quote:
Originally posted by ajmas
So you're telling me that you bought a JVC TV set and only expect to get transmissions from JVC, or that you bought a Panasonic CD player from Amazon and therefore should only be buying your music from Amazon or Panasonic? Since when does anyone buy a device and then expect not to have the right to choose what they do with it afterwards?

The problem with that statement is protocol. That is like saying since you are a Mac user, you can only recieve Mac TCP/IP packets. Wave signals, audio tapes, etc are all standard forms of communication. The standard in the digital music arena is mp3. iPod can read and play mp3s very easily, as do most of the others out there.

Back to the TV analogy, if you want the HDTV content, you have to have a TV that is HDTV compatable. It just so happens that there are converters and such, because it is an open protocol. FairPlay is NOT an open protocol. It was created by the hard efforts of Apple's marketing group, to sign on the labels; the software department to implement it; and the hardware group, to create a hardware decoder for it.

Personally, I agree with Apple's stance on it. It is their format, and to have anyone come in and reverse engineer it for their own profit is against the law.
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post #33 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by vinney57
Try playing a music cassette tape with your DVD player

I know this was kinda a joke, but Fair use laws do allow me to copy that cassette onto a DVD for my own use.

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Eggleston
Ok, minor problem here. First, the iPod, and its user interface and such, all belong to Apple. It is Apple's complete "widget" that gives us the user experience that we all love.

To compare this to what Microsoft is doing is very short-sighted. Microsoft developed softare that could be ran on anyone's hardware. It just isn't the same as controlling the whole widget.

Good point. I didn't think about Apple owning the iPod 100%. Still, if I remember correctly, some folks got together and installed Linux on an iPod. It seems to me that if you look at a iPod as a hardware device than you can install any software on it you want. There is no law against that. (You may void the warrantee but that is to protect Apple). On the other hand, iTunes is a software program that interfaces with the iPod through the operating system. I surely hope you are not suggesting that Apple install into the OS a form of control over what applications will access what devices. That is enough to make my head spin. If some other company, for example Nullsoft, decided to add iPod synchronization among other features to it's next release, should they be blocked from doing so? After all, before iTunes for PC, they were #1 and may even still be. Likewise should Canon, Sony, Kodak, Fujifilm, Nikon, HP, and Olympus sue Apple over Image Capture's ability to interface with their digital cameras? Or is this just a one-sided deal?

PS: I'm just frendly-jabbing. I didn't mean this post to sound mean.
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post #34 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by Ebby
I know this was kinda a joke, but Fair use laws do allow me to copy that cassette onto a DVD for my own use.



Good point. I didn't think about Apple owning the iPod 100%. Still, if I remember correctly, some folks got together and installed Linux on an iPod. It seems to me that if you look at a iPod as a hardware device than you can install any software on it you want. There is no law against that. (You may void the warrantee but that is to protect Apple). On the other hand, iTunes is a software program that interfaces with the iPod through the operating system. I surely hope you are not suggesting that Apple install into the OS a form of control over what applications will access what devices. That is enough to make my head spin. If some other company, for example Nullsoft, decided to add iPod synchronization among other features to it's next release, should they be blocked from doing so? After all, before iTunes for PC, they were #1 and may even still be. Likewise should Canon, Sony, Kodak, Fujifilm, Nikon, HP, and Olympus sue Apple over Image Capture's ability to interface with their digital cameras? Or is this just a one-sided deal?

PS: I'm just frendly-jabbing. I didn't mean this post to sound mean.

I think Olympus, HP, Nikon, Fujfilm, Kodak, Sony and Canon are using open standards or providing drivers and have an agreement with Apple allowing Image Capture to be used. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

I don't agree at all with some people saying that if it's hardware and you've bought it you're allowed to use it anyway you want.

When you buy software, you're not allowed to use it anyway you want. For some software, you have to get licenses to install it on more than one computers. Is hacking an app or cracking it legal even if you own it? When you buy software and agree to install it on one and only one computer, you own the software, but you're certainly not allowed to do whatever you want with it. You're certainly not allowed to install it on 2+ computers. If you do, you're robbing a company from sales. The same applies to Protected AAC...you're robbing Apple from iTMS sales if you're allowing iPods to load non-iTMS songs. Why would owning hardware entitle you to do whatever you want with it?

Blizzard says you shouldn't cheat or hack on Battle.net. If you do and they catch you, they ban your CD key. You're *not* allowed to use software anyway you want...are the laws different for hardware? Maybe they are but I'd love some proof.

Blizzard does this to protect the user-experience. Nobody wants to play with a cheater. Apple does the same. They're protecting the user-experience because they want to be in control of the system. Disturbing it should be considered a malicious attack.
post #35 of 97
Seems like the world is against me today. And I like it. *BIG Grin*

Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
When you buy software and agree to install it on one and only one computer, you own the software, but you're certainly not allowed to do whatever you want with it. You're certainly not allowed to install it on 2+ computers.


I've always had a hard time with this rule morally. I will only buy one copy of anything and use it on every product I personally own. This sounds horrible to some of you and I can hear faint screaming: "Hang him by his toes!". It's not that bad really. Although is it convenient to have software at the ready on any computer, I only use one instance of any program at a time. I made that pact and I stick to it 100%. If I am rendering an image in Bryce for 20 hours, I can still access Photoshop on another computer. Morally, there is nothing wrong since they have not lost any money. If I had a Photoshop business and we use multiple copies at the same time than sure, I'll buy multiple licenses. I just have a problem paying for inactive software. The exception are operating systems. They are used at the same time and I bought more than my fair share of them. (Looking at the pile of Win95, 98, 2000, and XP disks in my desk. I got a healthy stack of Mac OS disks too)

Quote:
The same applies to Protected AAC...you're robbing Apple from iTMS sales if you're allowing iPods to load non-iTMS songs. Why would owning hardware entitle you to do whatever you want with it?

Wait a second there. I have to do one of my bad analogies again but is that like saying I am robbing Tower Music if I shop at The Warehouse? I still purchase the music, pay the artist and recording industry, and receive a file. All that changed is the source I get my material. If one site happens to be cheaper, I will buy there. (Provided they don't have some freaky DRM restrictions) It's called "shopping around" and I think this has Apple is shaking in its boots. (Trying to end this fiasco before it gets out of control.)

As for: "Why would owning hardware entitle you to do whatever you want with it?"
Well, I paid for and now OWN it. It is no longer under the manufacturors control.

What about the Good 'ol American Hobby, tinkering around with cars? If you apply the same logic and outlaw that, than you better watch out for that mob of angry Seniors who enjoyed tweaking, enhancing, fixing and modifyinging cars. The'll put da smack-down on 'yr azz.

OK, That is just a funny mental image. Ahhh! Run for your lives! -Kind of a "Austin powers vs Steamroller" scene.

Enough Blab, I'm done.
horrid misuse of cool technology
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post #36 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Eggleston
Personally, I agree with Apple's stance on it. It is their format, and to have anyone come in and reverse engineer it for their own profit is against the law.

That's far from clear. Even the DMCA specifically allows reverse engineering for interoperability, which is pretty much what Real has done. And if you feel reverse engineering is morally wrong regardless, perhaps you should lobby Apple to remove Samba from OS X.
post #37 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
I don't agree at all with some people saying that if it's hardware and you've bought it you're allowed to use it anyway you want.

Why on earth not? What do you think "own" means?

Quote:
When you buy software, you're not allowed to use it anyway you want.

Actually, you are. What you can't do is *copy* it (although there are certain fair use exceptions), because of copyright law. I can use AppleWorks to write an editorial condemning Apple, and there's not a thing they can do about it.

Quote:
You're *not* allowed to use software anyway you want...are the laws different for hardware?

Of course. Copyright doesn't apply to hardware, because you can't copy it. (Unless you have a duplicator from Star Trek).
post #38 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Harmony allows people to wander out of the beautiful sunny neighborhood and into the neighborhood full of prostitutes, drugs and crime.

ah, rock and roll. the sound of rebellion...






...oh wait. that was just a dream? 2004 really is just like '1984.' shit.
post #39 of 97
Quote:
Originally posted by AppleInsider

Earlier today, RealNetworks began threatening to license its Harmony Technology to the many digital online music stores.


This is all about Real having a hissy fit over being snubbed. That's all. Otherwise, why would they threaten to license the technology to their own compeditors?
post #40 of 97
I am with Real on this one. Apple has gained enough momentum with ITMS and iPod. They need to fuel growth by allowing more people to contribute to the popularity of the products.
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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