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UN might threaten sanctions on Sudan - Page 2

post #41 of 70
8/1/04 at 11:09pm
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
I'm sorry, it's going to take me a little while to get past the notion of having ones chicanery shunted. If, in fact, I ever can.

The last time I had mine shunted was just to drain a little fluid off. Gross looking, but didn't hurt too bad.

The UN really needs to step up to the plate with this business in Sudan before it (Sudan, not the UN) turns into something like Rwanda. I'd love to see France and Germany (and maybe Russia) offer as many troops as they can.
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post #42 of 70
8/1/04 at 11:28pm
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
So, you advocate removing the sovereignty clause from the UN charter. You know the one that says nations have a right to choose their form of leadership be it monarchy, constitutional monarchy, democratically elected leaders or dictator.

What sane country "chooses" a dictatorship?

The clause should be amended to exclude dictatorships from having a vote at the UN.

This is the 21st century, not the 14th.
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post #43 of 70
8/1/04 at 11:43pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
What sane country "chooses" a dictatorship?

The clause should be amended to exclude dictatorships from having a vote at the UN.

This is the 21st century, not the 14th.

Pakistan is one. My point was excluding nations from the UN because of their chosen govenrence systems serves little to no practical purpose.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...




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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...




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post #44 of 70
8/1/04 at 11:55pm
I'm not trying to be mean, but by that kind of logic South Africa could not have been thrown out during the reign of Apartheid, because White Rule would have qualified as the country's "chosen" governance.

Every now and then Humanity has to take a step toward progress.

The UN's ultimate aim should be to have all members eventually adopt democratic systems of governance. I'm not saying we force everyone to convert at once, but the banana republics should have observer status only during voting.
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post #45 of 70
8/1/04 at 11:57pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
I'm not trying to be mean, but by that kind of logic South Africa could not have been thrown out during the reign of Apartheid, because White Rule would have qualified as the country's "chosen" governance.

Every now and then Humanity has to take a step toward progress.

The UN's ultimate aim should be to have all members eventually adopt democratic systems of governance. I'm not saying we force everyone to convert at once, but the banana republics should have observer status only during voting.

Actually, the UN's ultimate aim ought to be to provide a venue for countries to solve problems.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #46 of 70
8/2/04 at 12:02am
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Actually, the UN's ultimate aim ought to be to provide a venue for countries to solve problems.

Point taken, but the world's most dangerous problems - from the Mid-East to Sudan to the Koreas and elsewhere, usually tend to involve more dictatorships than not.
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post #47 of 70
8/2/04 at 4:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
The last time I had mine shunted was just to drain a little fluid off. Gross looking, but didn't hurt too bad.

The UN really needs to step up to the plate with this business in Sudan before it (Sudan, not the UN) turns into something like Rwanda. I'd love to see France and Germany (and maybe Russia) offer as many troops as they can.

Of course that wont happen. France and Germany have no ability to project their power. Russia is too poor.

Sudan is already a Rwanda. Does it matter that much if it's 3,000,000 or 300,000 or 30,000?
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post #48 of 70
8/2/04 at 4:53am
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Of course that wont happen. France and Germany have no ability to project their power. Russia is too poor.

Sudan is already a Rwanda. Does it matter that much if it's 3,000,000 or 300,000 or 30,000?

Sorry I was correct folks.
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post #49 of 70
8/2/04 at 9:45am
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Of course that wont happen. France and Germany have no ability to project their power. Russia is too poor.

France sent the following to Desert Storm:

18,000 troops, 60 combat aircraft, 120 helicopters, 40 tanks, 1 missle cruiser, 3 destroyers, 4 frigates
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post #50 of 70
8/2/04 at 12:46pm
Thread Starter 
How long did it take to get them all there and how?
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post #51 of 70
8/2/04 at 3:38pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
How long did it take to get them all there and how?

I think they all rode mopeds and stopped on the way a lot for coffee, a smoke, and a nap.

Linky

What the hell are you getting at?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #52 of 70
8/2/04 at 4:50pm
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
What the hell are you getting at?

Ignoring the questions posed to him.
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post #53 of 70
8/2/04 at 7:39pm
Thread Starter 
No bunge just getting back to. Fink. Anyway enough with my shadow the troll.

France and Germany have no ability to project their power in a meaningful way. Just what I said before. Am I typing in English?
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post #54 of 70
8/2/04 at 8:21pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
France and Germany have no ability to project their power in a meaningful way. Just what I said before. Am I typing in English?

You can't even quote yourself accurately. That's not what you said before. Before, you said this:

Quote:
France and Germany have no ability to project their power.

There's a difference between that and what you've said now that you've qualified it with some kind of nebulous "in a meaningful way," which allows you to define it however you want. I suppose, in the end, you're going to argue that unless France can muster 175,000 troops it's not "meaningful."
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post #55 of 70
8/2/04 at 9:39pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Anyway enough with my shadow the troll.

Paranoia will destroy ya.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #56 of 70
8/2/04 at 9:52pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Paranoia will destroy ya.

There he is again. Someone step on him!
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post #57 of 70
8/2/04 at 9:54pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
You can't even quote yourself accurately. That's not what you said before. Before, you said this:

Oh okay? Then I'll say this. They can only project their power in meaningless ways. Feel better?



Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
There's a difference between that and what you've said now that you've qualified it with some kind of nebulous "in a meaningful way," which allows you to define it however you want. I suppose, in the end, you're going to argue that unless France can muster 175,000 troops it's not "meaningful."

No but maybe you think armies that can project their power in ways other than meaningful ones are relevant.

Maybe those troops can charter air france to get them here. I hear there are some SST planes no one is using.
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post #58 of 70
8/2/04 at 10:48pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Oh okay? Then I'll say this. They can only project their power in meaningless ways. Feel better?

So now you're changing your language even further? Which is it, Scott? France's army, which sent 18,000 troops, 60 combat aircraft, 120 helicopters, 40 tanks, 1 missle cruiser, 3 destroyers, 4 frigates to Iraq in Desert Storm (and, from what I understand, some pretty friggin' cool special ops teams), either cannot project power, cannot project power in a meaningful way, or can only project power in a meaningless way. You've said 3 different things, all in some stupid attempt to crack a joke about France being, what? A bunch of wimps? Or maybe just the French army being that? Are you suggesting that if France offered the same amount of troops in Iraq right now they'd be so useless that we should turn them down? Are you suggesting that French troops are somehow genetically incapable or making a difference in Sudan?

Quote:
maybe you think armies that can project their power in ways other than meaningful ones are relevant.

I have no idea what you're getting at, unless you somehow think that the French army shows up somewhere and just hangs around and smokes cigarettes while the soldiers make fun of Americans.

Quote:
Maybe those troops can charter air france to get them here. I hear there are some SST planes no one is using.

Again, I don't understand what you mean. The SST fleet was old and expensive to maintain, and so the Concorde was retired. Are you using some kind of random French-insult generator to make these posts or something?
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post #59 of 70
8/2/04 at 11:05pm
I don't know much about the French military situation (aside from the well-known internet jokes) but if it's anything like the Canadian situation, Scott's probably right.

The Liberals in Canada (heavily influenced by European ideas) cut military spending to the point that our military can only participate in large-scale missions where the Americans offer to give our troops and equipment a ride.

I am not kidding.

During this year's election debates, the current Prime Minister was asked about funding the military. He responded with a lot of hyperbole about how the Conservatives wanted to buy aircraft carriers which were a waste of money and then mused about how Canada need to buy more "medical ships" to sail around the globe.

Unbelievable. I hope Europe isn't buying into this kind of idiocy as well.
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post #60 of 70
8/2/04 at 11:12pm
  • Anders
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NEWSFLASH---NEWSFLASH---NEWSFLASH

Us doesn´t have the sealift capacity to deliver their own troops and materiel . They hire companies, even from socialist europe to do so for them.
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post #61 of 70
8/3/04 at 12:50am
Quote:
France's army, which sent 18,000 troops, 60 combat aircraft, 120 helicopters, 40 tanks, 1 missle cruiser, 3 destroyers, 4 frigates to Iraq in Desert Storm (and, from what I understand, some pretty friggin' cool special ops teams

Scott, is that "meaningless?"

Answer up!

meh
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meh
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post #62 of 70
8/3/04 at 4:06am
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
This is the 21st century, not the 14th.

So what? You seem to be equating the 21st century with rational, enlightened people but there is actually no link between the two.
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post #63 of 70
8/3/04 at 2:46pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
Scott, is that "meaningless?"

Answer up!


I did. Are you reading the thread or just trolling?
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post #64 of 70
8/3/04 at 4:17pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
Scott, is that "meaningless?"

From France, when it doesn't support his argument, yet it's meaningless. But when it's Poland's 300 troops in Iraq, that means it's a meaningful multi-lateral force.
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post #65 of 70
8/3/04 at 4:18pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
I did.

I think what he meant was for you to give a definitive answer rather than vacillating between three opposing viewpoints.
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post #66 of 70
8/4/04 at 4:00am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
I think what he meant was for you to give a definitive answer rather than vacillating between three opposing viewpoints.

What three opposing viewpoints did i vacillate between? Please be specific.
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post #67 of 70
8/4/04 at 9:59am
Quote:
So now you're changing your language even further? Which is it, Scott? France's army, which sent 18,000 troops, 60 combat aircraft, 120 helicopters, 40 tanks, 1 missle cruiser, 3 destroyers, 4 frigates to Iraq in Desert Storm (and, from what I understand, some pretty friggin' cool special ops teams), either cannot project power, cannot project power in a meaningful way, or can only project power in a meaningless way. You've said 3 different things, all in some stupid attempt to crack a joke about France being, what? A bunch of wimps?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #68 of 70
8/11/04 at 10:56am
Well. I'm starting to think that France or the US should just get in there with some air-fire power and at least shoot down the Sudanese Gunships . . . they might want to think abiout pulling a Kosovo here . . . Scott might be right about the innertia of the Bureacracy in the usual UN modus operandi . . .

HERE
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--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

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post #69 of 70
8/11/04 at 1:45pm
Thread Starter 
I nominate France.
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post #70 of 70
8/12/04 at 4:57am
Thread Starter 
Anyone want to second that?
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