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Check out this attack ad on Kerry

post #1 of 114
Thread Starter 
So I guess these guys don't like Kerry?
post #2 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
So I guess these guys don't like Kerry?

So where's the beef? There's absolutely no content in that ad. It's all fluff. Where's the smoking gun? What are the specifics? Details?

All of this over one of his multiple purple hearts?

Where are Bush's purple hearts. Did those ambitious secretaries steal them from Bush while reading magazines and taking dips in the pool?

How stupid do they think the American people are?
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post #3 of 114
You want a 30 second ad or a 30 minute ad? Anyway Northgate maybe going to the web site would be a good idea?
post #4 of 114
Thread Starter 
Watch who says "I served with John Kerry" and who doesn't. They clearly imply that everyone in that video served with him, but I wonder. It's not like it would be hard to find vietnam vets who don't like Kerry. I'm sure lots of them hate him because of how he opposed the war and what he said when he got back. Apparently in the book they claim some of his purple heart wounds were self-inflicted.
post #5 of 114
That's dispicable slander by a buncha disgruntled opinionated Republican vets

and its about as low as you can get
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #6 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Watch who says "I served with John Kerry" and who doesn't. They clearly imply that everyone in that video served with him, but I wonder. It's not like it would be hard to find vietnam vets who don't like Kerry. I'm sure lots of them hate him because of how he opposed the war and what he said when he got back. Apparently in the book they claim some of his purple heart wounds were self-inflicted.

John Kerry served on a Target for a year (a surface ship--carrier I believe) You can go an entire year and not see all members of the crew yet say "I served with so and so." I get a kick out of these ads because I served with probably 300-400 people on one sub over 4 years. Did I know most of them? Not really. I knew their names when I had to. I knew who to see if I needed something from another division. Simply because I severed with so many guys in no way shape of form qualifies me to judge any of them save the handful (50 or so) I work closely with among with 15 where in my division.

These ads play on the ignorance of the masses in that the people "served" with John Kerry, but only one of them actually "served" with John Kerry on the swift boat if I recall(I believe it was the gunners mate). The rest of the swift boat crew back John Kerry--Wonder why. Also, Its not hard to find one person who hated you while serving with you. I can list a handful of guys I hated, and I'm sure I'm on a few lists myself. If I ever run for office I expect to hear "I served with Faust9(insert real name here) and he was no sailor..."
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #7 of 114
Also I find it funny (ironic like a lie funny) that a military doctor remembers John Kerry 40 years later. Bullshit!!! Military hospitals are impersonal machines. You don't get aquatinted with a doctor and remember said healer 40 years later; likewise a doctor who treats a man in an afternoon (removed shrapnel and documented the removal of said shrapnel) and remember that face. Even if Kerry made his face known when he returned stateside. It's damn hard to remember causal contacts in the military because you see so many new people all the time(probably more-so in a military hospital in a war zone).
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #8 of 114
All these men served with John Kerry? I guess Bush is thinking "Damn. If only one of them would say I served with GWB"
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #9 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
All these men served with John Kerry? I guess Bush is thinking "Damn. If only one of them would say I served with GWB"

"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #10 of 114
Quote:
The Kerry campaign featured the photograph in an advertisement released in May titled Lifetime. Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has contacted surviving members of this group to find out how many actually support John Kerry, and discovered that of 19 Swift boat skippers pictured other than Kerry, 12 consider him unfit, 4 are neutral, two have died, and 1 is working with the Kerry campaign. Four other officers were not present for the photo session; all oppose Kerry.

Only 1 of John Kerry's 23 fellow Swift boat commanders from Coastal Division 11 supports his candidacy today.

along with

Quote:
John Kerry has long insisted that using the three-injury loophole to leave combat early was his own idea, but Kerry's fellow Swift officer Thomas Wright, who served on occasion as the OIC (Officer in Charge) of Kerry's boat group, contradicts that claim. Wright reports that he "had a lot of trouble getting Kerry to follow orders," and that those who worked with Kerry found him "oriented towards his personal, rather than unit goals and objectives." He therefore requested that Kerry be removed from his boat group. After John Kerry qualified for his third Purple Heart, Thomas Wright and two fellow officers informed him of the obscure regulation, and told him to go home. Wright concluded, "We knew how the system worked and we didnt want him in Coastal Division 11."

not exactly a ringing endoresemnt, if true.
post #11 of 114
Whether he was a good soldier or a sub standard soldier, he still fought for our country (for usa peoples).

Military service records are relative, if people in charge of you dont like you then they can write bad things about you. The truth can be distorted and misinterpreted later, and it is usually not worth the effort disputing derogatory information at the time if its really not that bad. Disputing what a superior has written about you could worsen the relationship between you and your superior (who thinks they are "leading" by pointing out what they feel to be your shortcomings).

If Kerry didnt get along with his superiors for whatever reason they would feel inclined to write poorly of him. This is just the way it is and Im sure its true for many jobs.

Even if his evaluation reports were subpar, as long as he had no misconduct I applaud his (and all other veterans) service in war.
post #12 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
So where's the beef? There's absolutely no content in that ad. It's all fluff. Where's the smoking gun? What are the specifics? Details?

All of this over one of his multiple purple hearts?

Where are Bush's purple hearts. Did those ambitious secretaries steal them from Bush while reading magazines and taking dips in the pool?

How stupid do they think the American people are?

Except a lot of these people served with Kerry.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #13 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Also I find it funny (ironic like a lie funny) that a military doctor remembers John Kerry 40 years later. Bullshit!!! Military hospitals are impersonal machines. You don't get aquatinted with a doctor and remember said healer 40 years later; likewise a doctor who treats a man in an afternoon (removed shrapnel and documented the removal of said shrapnel) and remember that face. Even if Kerry made his face known when he returned stateside. It's damn hard to remember causal contacts in the military because you see so many new people all the time(probably more-so in a military hospital in a war zone).

Maybe it stuck in his mind since he realized it was a self inflicted wound.

Kerry is a joke.

Bush in '04.
post #14 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by kozchris

Bush in '04.

This is America, not Sparta. We don't need a "war president".
post #15 of 114
i heard an interview with one of the guys in that group that claims that during the now famous incident where he (kerry) saves the life of one of the swift boat members, that Kerry ordered his boat to flee from the scene as one of the three boats were sinking and three guys were in the water and all of the crew on the sinking boat were unconscious. This guy was on the boat that stayed to get the downed crew. he claims that the boat was hit by a remote controlled mine in the water and it blew the boat 6 feet out of the water.

He said that Kerry's boat returned only after there was no more firing and it was clear. He claims that in Kerry's AAR, Kerry claims that he fled for three miles under fire. This guy said that they receive little to no return fire after the initial mine attack. These guys are the members of the other two boats that were on the same patrol and in the very same location at the time of this particular attack.

pflam i think that you are wrong about them just being disgruntled vets. They did the same job as him and actually served with and around him. I think that they may have a valid point of view, regardless of party affiliation.

Edit: If kerry is going to run on his Vietnam "hero" persona then his service record is fair game. And if there are people that are standing up and saying that it is not as sterling as he puts forth. You should at least take a listen. It has been my experience that Vets only talk highly of other vets unless there is good reason. Not to say that it could all be political, just that it is worth considering.
post #16 of 114
You know, Republicans are very good at throwing out "support the troops" when they no longer wish to argue the merits of the war. It's code for saying "shut the f*ck up, how dare you criticise the government when our boys are out there dying to protect us". Which is also code for "if you disagree with Bush then you are wishing our soldiers to die and are therefore a communist".

In other words, once we're at war all discussion is at a standstill. This is basically Sean Hannity's argument.

BUT

If you're a veteran who volunteered to fight in a war and you want to run for the highest office in the land...then you're a scumbag opportunist.

Again...THE HYPOCRISY ASTOUNDS!

But hey, don't take my word for it. Take John McCain's (who I voted for):

McCain is now angry at an anti-Kerry ad campaign criticizing his military services as "dishonest and dishonorable".

Republican Sen. John McCain, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, called an ad criticizing John Kerry's military service "dishonest and dishonorable" and urged the White House on Thursday to condemn it as well.

Quote:
"It was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me," McCain said in an interview with The Associated Press, referring to his bitter Republican primary fight with President Bush.

The 60-second ad features Vietnam veterans who accuse the Democratic presidential nominee of lying about his decorated Vietnam War record and betraying his fellow veterans by later opposing the conflict [...]

"I wish they hadn't done it," McCain said of his former advisers. "I don't know if they knew all the facts."

Asked if the White House knew about the ad or helped find financing for it, McCain said, "I hope not, but I don't know. But I think the Bush campaign should specifically condemn the ad."

The ad is beyond the bounds of common decency -- to attack the highly-decorated Kerry, who volunteered for combat duty while AWOL Bush played pool volleyball with ambitious secretaries in Texas. And the ad doesn't feature a single vet who served on Kerry's swiftboat.

But why is McCain acting all shocked? The Bush machine pulled the same smear crap against him in 2000, as he himself notes.

Partially from Kos
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post #17 of 114
I was going to give a longer reply but Northgate already said it best.

Like I've said the mudslinging has already begun.

I imagine it would be easy to have served in Vietnam, had something against the war, and have a group of vets who don't like you.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #18 of 114
"Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is a tax exempt non-partisan public advocacy "527" organization that consists of and is limited to former military officers and enlisted men who served in Vietnam on U.S. Navy "Swift Boats" or in affiliated commands."

I checked out the site and there are no political references other than the fact that kerry is using their photos to forward his campaign and that the stories he is telling do not match the facts as they see them.
post #19 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
"Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is a tax exempt non-partisan public advocacy "527" organization that consists of and is limited to former military officers and enlisted men who served in Vietnam on U.S. Navy "Swift Boats" or in affiliated commands."

I checked out the site and there are no political references other than the fact that kerry is using their photos to forward his campaign and that the stories he is telling do not match the facts as they see them.

You're more naive than I thought Naples. You're usually more adept than this. Come on.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #20 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by kozchris
Maybe it stuck in his mind since he realized it was a self inflicted wound.

Kerry is a joke.

Bush in '04.

Lame... Utterly lame.



Proof's in the puddin' there pal.
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #21 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
"Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is a tax exempt non-partisan public advocacy "527" organization that consists of and is limited to former military officers and enlisted men who served in Vietnam on U.S. Navy "Swift Boats" or in affiliated commands."

I checked out the site and there are no political references other than the fact that kerry is using their photos to forward his campaign and that the stories he is telling do not match the facts as they see them.

You didn't look hard enough:
Quote:
Smear Boat Veterans for Bush
The "swift boat" veterans attacking John Kerry's war record are led by veteran right-wing operatives using the same vicious techniques they used against John McCain four years ago.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Joe Conason

printe-mail

May 4, 2004 | The latest conservative outfit to fire an angry broadside against John Kerry's heroic war record is Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which today launches a campaign to brand the Democrat "unfit to serve as commander in chief." Billing itself as representing the "other 97 percent of veterans" from Kerry's Navy unit who don't support his presidential candidacy, the group insists that all presidential candidates must be "totally honest and forthcoming" about their military service.

These "swift boat vets" claim still to be furious about Kerry's 1971 Senate testimony against the war in which he spoke about atrocities in Indochina's "free fire zones." More than three decades later, facing the complicated truth about Vietnam remains difficult. But this group's political connections make clear that its agenda is to target the election of 2004.

Behind the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth are veteran corporate media consultant and Texas Republican activist Merrie Spaeth, who is listed as the group's media contact; eternal Kerry antagonist and Houston attorney John E. O'Neill, law partner of Spaeth's late husband, Tex Lezar; and retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffman, a cigar-chomping former Vietnam commander once described as "the classic body-count guy" who "wanted hooches destroyed and people killed."

Spaeth told Salon that O'Neill first approached her last winter to discuss his "concerns about Sen. Kerry." O'Neill has been assailing Kerry since 1971, when the former Navy officer was selected for the role by Charles Colson, Richard Nixon's dirty-tricks aide. Spaeth heard O'Neill out, but told him, she says, that he "sounded like a crazed extremist" and should "button his lip" and avoid speaking with the press. But since Kerry clinched the Democratic nomination, Spaeth has changed her mind and decided to donate her public relations services on a "pro bono" basis to O'Neill's latest anti-Kerry effort. "About three weeks ago, four weeks ago," she said, the group's leaders "met in my office for about 12 hours" to prepare for their Washington debut.

Although not as well known as Karen Hughes, Spaeth is among the most experienced and best connected Republican communications executives. During the Reagan administration she served as director of the White House Office of Media Liaison, where she specialized in promoting "news" items that boosted President Reagan to TV stations around the country. While living in Washington she met and married Lezar, a Reagan Justice Department lawyer who ran for lieutenant governor of Texas in 1994 with George W. Bush, then the party's candidate for governor. (Lezar lost; Bush won.)

Through Lezar, who died of a heart attack last January, she met O'Neill, his law partner in Clements, O'Neill, Pierce, Wilson & Fulkerson, a Dallas firm. (It also includes Margaret Wilson, the former counsel to Gov. Bush who followed him to Washington, where she served for a time as a deputy counsel in the Department of Commerce.)

Spaeth's partisanship runs still deeper, as does her history of handling difficult P.R. cases for Republicans. In 1998, for example, she coached Kenneth Starr, the independent counsel, to prepare him for his testimony urging the impeachment of President Clinton before the House Judiciary Committee. She even reviewed videotapes of his previous television appearances to give him pointers about his delivery and demeanor. The man responsible for arranging her advice to Starr was another old friend of her late husband's, Theodore Olson, who was counsel to the right-wing American Spectator when it acted as a front for the dirty-tricks campaign against Clinton known as the Arkansas Project; he is now the solicitor general in the Bush Justice Department. (Olson also happens to be the godfather of Spaeth's daughter.)

In 2000, Spaeth participated in the most subterranean episode of the Republican primary contest when a shadowy group billed as "Republicans for Clean Air" produced television ads falsely attacking the environmental record of Sen. John McCain in California, New York and Ohio. While the identity of those funding the supposedly "independent" ads was carefully hidden, reporters soon learned that Republicans for Clean Air was simply Sam Wyly -- a big Bush contributor and beneficiary of Bush administration decisions in Texas -- and his brother, Charles, another Bush "Pioneer" contributor. (One of the Wyly family's private capital funds, Maverick Capital of Dallas, had been awarded a state contract to invest $90 million for the University of Texas endowment.)

When the secret emerged, spokeswoman Spaeth caught the flak for the Wylys, an experience she recalled to me as "horrible" and "awful." Her job was to assure reporters that there had been no illegal coordination between the Bush campaign and the Wyly brothers in arranging the McCain-trashing message. Not everyone believed her explanation, including the Arizona senator.

The veteran group's founder, Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann, first gained notoriety in Vietnam as a strutting, cigar-chewing Navy captain. But it was O'Neill, by now a familiar figure on the Kerry-bashing circuit, who came to Spaeth for assistance.

Until now, Hoffmann has been best known as the commanding officer whose obsession with body counts and "scorekeeping" may have provoked the February 1969 massacre of Vietnamese civilians at Thanh Phong by a unit led by Bob Kerrey -- the Medal of Honor winner who lost a leg in Nam, became a U.S. senator from Nebraska and now sits on the 9/11 commission.

After journalist Gregory Vistica exposed the Thanh Phong massacre and the surrounding circumstances in the New York Times magazine three years ago, conservative columnist Christopher Caldwell took particular note of the cameo role played by Kerrey's C.O., who had warned his men not to return from missions without enough kills. "One of the myths due to die as a result of Vistica's article is that which holds the war could have been won sensibly and cleanly if the 'suits' back in Washington had merely left the military men to their own devices," Caldwell wrote. "In this light, one of the great merits of Vistica's article is its portrait of the Kurtz-like psychopath who commanded Kerrey's Navy task force, Capt. Roy Hoffmann."

Arguments about the war in Vietnam seem destined to continue forever. For now, however, the lingering bitterness and ambiguity of those days provide smear material against an antiwar war hero with five medals on behalf of a privileged Guardsman with a dubious duty record. The president's Texas allies -- whose animus against his Democratic challenger dates back to the Nixon era -- are now deploying the same techniques and personnel they used to attack McCain's integrity four years ago. Bush's "independent" supporters would apparently rather talk about the Vietnam quagmire than about his deadly incompetence in Iraq.
post #22 of 114
McCain:
Quote:
I deplore this kind of politics. I think the ad is dishonest and dishonorable. As it is, none of these individuals served on the boat (Kerry) commanded. Many of his crew have testified to his courage under fire. I think John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam..."

also from msnbc:
Quote:
The Kerry campaign has denounced the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, saying none of the men in the ad served on the boat that Kerry commanded. The leader of the group, retired Adm. Roy Hoffmann, said none of the 13 veterans in the commercial served on Kerrys boat but rather were in other swiftboats within 50 yards of Kerrys.

Jim Rassmann, an Army veteran who was saved by Kerry, said there were only six crewmates who served with Kerry on his boat. Five support his candidacy and one is deceased.
post #23 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
You didn't look hard enough:

You are right, I did not look to hard. But what i was looking for was blatant references and links to Kerry-bashing sites. You know the usual on smear sites. It appeard to me that they have legitimate issues with his service record. Mind, you I am not saying that I swallow everything or that I think that there is no political bias at play.

It seems that the motivation is to separate themselves from the Kerry Campaign rather than support Bush's, even though that may be a side effect. That is what I was commenting on.
post #24 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
McCain:

also from msnbc:

There ya go. I stand corrected. I could've sworn one of his crew members spoke out against him at one point--guess not. Anywho, as I said in my post above, you can server with someone and you can "serve" with someone. The only opinions that matter come from those who worked with the man on that one boat not around the man.

PS. I still say the doctor is a bold faced liar. Go to a military hospital and see what I mean. Go to a war zone hospital and really see what I mean. Unbelievable, the lengths my party will go to.
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post #25 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
It seems that the motivation is to separate themselves from the Kerry Campaign rather than support Bush's, even though that may be a side effect. That is what I was commenting on.

Would it hurt you to read before replying? Now posted for the second time
Quote:
Behind the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth are veteran corporate media consultant and Texas Republican activist Merrie Spaeth, who is listed as the group's media contact; eternal Kerry antagonist and Houston attorney John E. O'Neill, law partner of Spaeth's late husband, Tex Lezar; and retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffman, a cigar-chomping former Vietnam commander once described as "the classic body-count guy" who "wanted hooches destroyed and people killed."

Spaeth told Salon that O'Neill first approached her last winter to discuss his "concerns about Sen. Kerry." O'Neill has been assailing Kerry since 1971, when the former Navy officer was selected for the role by Charles Colson, Richard Nixon's dirty-tricks aide. Spaeth heard O'Neill out, but told him, she says, that he "sounded like a crazed extremist" and should "button his lip" and avoid speaking with the press. But since Kerry clinched the Democratic nomination, Spaeth has changed her mind and decided to donate her public relations services on a "pro bono" basis to O'Neill's latest anti-Kerry effort. "About three weeks ago, four weeks ago," she said, the group's leaders "met in my office for about 12 hours" to prepare for their Washington debut.

Although not as well known as Karen Hughes, Spaeth is among the most experienced and best connected Republican communications executives. During the Reagan administration she served as director of the White House Office of Media Liaison, where she specialized in promoting "news" items that boosted President Reagan to TV stations around the country. While living in Washington she met and married Lezar, a Reagan Justice Department lawyer who ran for lieutenant governor of Texas in 1994 with George W. Bush, then the party's candidate for governor. (Lezar lost; Bush won.)

Through Lezar, who died of a heart attack last January, she met O'Neill, his law partner in Clements, O'Neill, Pierce, Wilson & Fulkerson, a Dallas firm. (It also includes Margaret Wilson, the former counsel to Gov. Bush who followed him to Washington, where she served for a time as a deputy counsel in the Department of Commerce.)

Spaeth's partisanship runs still deeper, as does her history of handling difficult P.R. cases for Republicans. In 1998, for example, she coached Kenneth Starr, the independent counsel, to prepare him for his testimony urging the impeachment of President Clinton before the House Judiciary Committee. She even reviewed videotapes of his previous television appearances to give him pointers about his delivery and demeanor. The man responsible for arranging her advice to Starr was another old friend of her late husband's, Theodore Olson, who was counsel to the right-wing American Spectator when it acted as a front for the dirty-tricks campaign against Clinton known as the Arkansas Project; he is now the solicitor general in the Bush Justice Department. (Olson also happens to be the godfather of Spaeth's daughter.)

In 2000, Spaeth participated in the most subterranean episode of the Republican primary contest when a shadowy group billed as "Republicans for Clean Air" produced television ads falsely attacking the environmental record of Sen. John McCain in California, New York and Ohio. While the identity of those funding the supposedly "independent" ads was carefully hidden, reporters soon learned that Republicans for Clean Air was simply Sam Wyly -- a big Bush contributor and beneficiary of Bush administration decisions in Texas -- and his brother, Charles, another Bush "Pioneer" contributor. (One of the Wyly family's private capital funds, Maverick Capital of Dallas, had been awarded a state contract to invest $90 million for the University of Texas endowment.)

When the secret emerged, spokeswoman Spaeth caught the flak for the Wylys, an experience she recalled to me as "horrible" and "awful." Her job was to assure reporters that there had been no illegal coordination between the Bush campaign and the Wyly brothers in arranging the McCain-trashing message. Not everyone believed her explanation, including the Arizona senator.
post #26 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
This is America, not Sparta. We don't need a "war president".

Please tell me you aren't serious.


It doesn't matter how much of FAKE Kerry is exposed to be. It doesn't matter how insanely liberal he is. It doesn't matter what his voting record is. It doesn't matter how many times he's SCREWED the intel community and military and security of the United States itself. It doesn't matter that he delibrately reenacted footage after his "combat" tour. It doesn't matter that he's on VIDEO admitting war crimes.

He's not George Bush and that's all that matters to giant, et al. I wish they'd just admit it.
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post #27 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Please tell me you aren't serious.


It doesn't matter how much of FAKE Kerry is exposed to be. It doesn't matter how insanely liberal he is. It doesn't matter what his voting record is. It doesn't matter how many times he's SCREWED the intel community and military and security of the United States itself. It doesn't matter that he delibrately reenacted footage after his "combat" tour. It doesn't matter that he's on VIDEO admitting war crimes.

He's not George Bush and that's all that matters to giant, et al. I wish they'd just admit it.

I am actually hoping more and more that the crazed left gets their wish. I mean, come on GWB is fairly predictable and we know that in this time that some see as "wartime", that what we really need to focus on is.. well, John Kerry.

"As president, John Kerry will cut taxes for businesses that create jobs here in America instead of moving them overseas."

"When John Kerry is president, middle-class taxes will go down."

"John Kerry will cut the deficit in half during his first four years in office."

"As president, John Kerry will lead a coalition of the able - because no force on earth is more able than the United States and its allies."

"As president, John Kerry will offer a fully refundable College Opportunity Tax credit on up to $4,000 of tuition for every year of college and offer aid to states that keep tuitions down."

"As president, John Kerry will implement a "Restore America's Waters" campaign, an integrated approach to protecting our precious, limited water resources. He will work with states on the toughest water quality challenges, restore damaged watersheds, protect wetlands, invest in our waterfronts and coastal communities, and protect our oceans."

"...John Kerry will reduce gang violence..."

"As president, John Kerry will fully fund the No Child Left Behind Act..."

I'll give him one thing, he has confidence in himself.

Go Johnny, Go.
post #28 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I am actually hoping more and more that the crazed left gets their wish. I mean, come on GWB is fairly predictable and we know that in this time that some see as "wartime", that what we really need to focus on is.. well, John Kerry.

"As president, John Kerry will cut taxes for businesses that create jobs here in America instead of moving them overseas."

"When John Kerry is president, middle-class taxes will go down."

"John Kerry will cut the deficit in half during his first four years in office."

"As president, John Kerry will lead a coalition of the able - because no force on earth is more able than the United States and its allies."

"As president, John Kerry will offer a fully refundable College Opportunity Tax credit on up to $4,000 of tuition for every year of college and offer aid to states that keep tuitions down."

"As president, John Kerry will implement a "Restore America's Waters" campaign, an integrated approach to protecting our precious, limited water resources. He will work with states on the toughest water quality challenges, restore damaged watersheds, protect wetlands, invest in our waterfronts and coastal communities, and protect our oceans."

"...John Kerry will reduce gang violence..."

"As president, John Kerry will fully fund the No Child Left Behind Act..."

I'll give him one thing, he has confidence in himself.

Go Johnny, Go.

I'm glad you agree that those are good things and that it would a good thing if they were all accomplished.

As for confidence...the current president thinks he can win a war against a tactic.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #29 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Please tell me you aren't serious.


It doesn't matter how much of FAKE Kerry is exposed to be. It doesn't matter how insanely liberal he is. It doesn't matter what his voting record is. It doesn't matter how many times he's SCREWED the intel community and military and security of the United States itself. It doesn't matter that he delibrately reenacted footage after his "combat" tour. It doesn't matter that he's on VIDEO admitting war crimes.

He's not George Bush and that's all that matters to giant, et al. I wish they'd just admit it.

Uh oh, SDW has popped a rivet....

"Insanely liberal"? His voting record in the senate puts him bout the middle of the pack, right wing talking points not withstanding.

"Screwed the intel, military and security of the US"? I guess you're talking about the distorted bookkeeping of the Bush campaign, where a vote against an omnibus spending bill that breaks the bank and has little support on either side of the aisle gets counted as a "vote against America's security" and a vote against any bill that anywhere in it proposes a tax decrease, no matter how otherwise flawed or unpopular, is counted a "vote to raise taxes"' and a vote against continued funding of a program never enacted, the money for which was being hoarded and which was de-funded even more decisively by the republican senate on the same day is counted as a "vote against intel".

You must know the "reenacted battle scenes" is bullshit, right? I mean, you would have to have your head completely up your ass not to have figured that out by now, and I would never say that of you.

As far as admitting war crimes, it's not a shameful secret that someone just happened to get on video. Kerry came back from Vietnam shaken by what he and his fellow soldiers had ended up doing. He spoke bravely of how the confusion of ends and means and us and them had led the soldiers in Vietnam into impossible situations. It is why he turned against the war, and he had the character to include himself among the guilty.

Naturally, bush would never be caught in the shameful act of admitting error.

So anyway, that's your list of Kerry crimes? Because they are all lies. And not "he said/she said" lies, but flat out lies that anyone who cares can verify from the public record.

This is the kind of stuff that makes me loath what has become of the American right: the deeply embedded dishonesty, the reflexive reach for whatever will serve to attack opponents without the least concern for accuracy, decency or sense.

When this kind of stuff becomes a regular part of the public discourse it does damage to our ability to solve our problems and move ahead. It shoots past the politics as usual, "cast the opposition in an unflattering light", straight into National Enquirer type slime.

A diet of which seems to be your preferred menu.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #30 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
I'm glad you agree that those are good things and that it would a good thing if they were all accomplished.

As for confidence...the current president thinks he can win a war against a tactic.



Funny, I never thought of it like that. Good point because the term terrorism was first coined during the French Revolutionary War---oh around 1798'ish. So, if people have been fighting the tactic since it was brought into the vernacular (it was a tactic long before this though) what does that say about our war on terror? Hmmm I wonder Hmmmm maybe it'll go as well as the war on drugs. One can only hope (sarcasm).
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #31 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9


Funny, I never thought of it like that. Good point because the term terrorism was first coined during the French Revolutionary War---oh around 1798'ish. So, if people have been fighting the tactic since it was brought into the vernacular (it was a tactic long before this though) what does that say about our war on terror? Hmmm I wonder Hmmmm maybe it'll go as well as the war on drugs. One can only hope (sarcasm).

It is actually a feeling.

You are talking about the coined "War on Terror", no?

"War on terrorists" doesn't have the same ring, but anyone, including my 7 year old son, understands that we at war with terrorists and not the feeling or the tactic of terror. Although, a side effect would be that terror would be reduced.

I wonder if you guys really think that it is clever to say "GWB wants to fight a tactic, ha ha what a dummy". I remember this type of mocking being done in 6th grade.

You guys are truly comical.
post #32 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
It is actually a feeling.

You are talking about the coined "War on Terror", no?

"War on terrorists" doesn't have the same ring, but anyone, including my 7 year old son, understands that we at war with terrorists and not the feeling or the tactic of terror. Although, a side effect would be that terror would be reduced.

I wonder if you guys really think that it is clever to say "GWB wants to fight a tactic, ha ha what a dummy". I remember this type of mocking being done in 6th grade.

You guys are truly comical.

But it hasn't been reduced. In fact it, terrorism, has gone up.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #33 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
In discussing security issues with Post editors and reporters Tuesday, Kerry campaign adviser Rand Beers took issue with the way the Bush administration has defined the effort to root out Islamic terrorists.

"The war is not against terrorism, which is a tactic, but in fact what we are talking about is a struggle against fundamentalist, Islamic jihahidists . . . who are bent on destroying the United States," he said.

Beers, former counterterrorism director in the Bush White House, said the administration has overemphasized military action at the expense of economic, diplomatic, political and other efforts in going after jihadists.

"That's why I chose to use the word 'struggle' instead of 'war' to actually define how I personally view this particular problem," he added.

From here.
post #34 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
It is actually a feeling.

You are talking about the coined "War on Terror", no?

"War on terrorists" doesn't have the same ring, but anyone, including my 7 year old son, understands that we at war with terrorists and not the feeling or the tactic of terror. Although, a side effect would be that terror would be reduced.

I wonder if you guys really think that it is clever to say "GWB wants to fight a tactic, ha ha what a dummy". I remember this type of mocking being done in 6th grade.

You guys are truly comical.

Actually, it's a War On Terrorism and those who deploy similar paramilitary and unconventional military tactics.

You should explain to your 7 year old son that the flaw in his logic, which we should allow considering the fact that he's only 7, is that he is assuming there is a finite number of terrorists we are at war with. That is not the case. As faust9 rightly pointed out, we are at war with an ideology here, and one that is really a political ideology in the Orwellian sense of the word
politics": nothing more, nothing less. And it is a political movement that, as Richard Clark notes, is masquerading as a religious one. You cannot kill an ideology--there are still Nazis roaming around. There are still communists. There are still white supremacists. There are still cult members from long-gone religions.

To make matters worse, when you kill those who believe the ideology, you run the very real risk of creating more converts--brothers, sisters, friends of the person you took out. And even if you don't make converts out of them to whatever cause you're fighting, you wind up with a new set of hostile folks about which the intelligence community knows nothing.

Anyway. I'm off to hear the Mormon Tabernacle Choir rehearse.

Cheers
Scott
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #35 of 114
I surrender.
post #36 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
But it hasn't been reduced. In fact it, terrorism, has gone up.


Yeah! They always seem to gloss over that one.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #37 of 114
This is minor compared to Kerry's complete inabilibty to get out any sort of message other than "Bush sucks more than me."

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #38 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
This is minor compared to Kerry's complete inabilibty to get out any sort of message other than "Bush sucks more than me."

Yeah, OK. It helps to look into the situation prior to commenting on it. What say you cruise by Kerry's site and read what he proposes. What say to speed over to the DNC site and read what's there. How 'bout you wait for the first debate before you wave the "Kerry has no plans" flag. Oh, and while you're at what's Bush plan for the next 4 years. Haven't really heard a peep about that other than "War, war, war. Terror, terror, terror. War, Terror, tax cuts." Nuf said.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #39 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
Yeah! They always seem to gloss over that one.

Yea and France was peaceful before D day.
post #40 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Yea and France was peaceful before D day.

Useless. I could link you to the re-released terror assessment putout by the state department a month ago, but you'd discredit it as partisan. You know the one that said terror incidents where on the rise... That one. I could do that but you'd retort with comments about France, or Clinton.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
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