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Check out this attack ad on Kerry - Page 2

post #41 of 114
Swift boat veterans for a big lie
Quote:
A newly formed group called "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" has called upon John Kerry to release all his Vietnam service records. They also say Kerry is "unfit to be commander-in-chief."

Let's put "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" under a microscope:

1.__ Their call for Kerry to release his Naval records is a little odd, because, uh, Kerry's already released all his Naval records. The original documents can be downloaded from his web site here. I emailed "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" to let them know where they can find the records (although the exact words I used were slightly less polite). You may want to do the same.

2.___ "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" says "We have every commanding officer he ever had in Vietnam." That's just completely false, or, more diplomatically put, "a fucking lie." "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" also says, "They all signed a letter saying he is unfit to be commander-in-chief."
Hmmm... There are 29 pages of officer evaluation reports on Kerry (scroll down to "Fitness Reports" if you want to download) that were filled out by Kerry's commanding officers while he served in the Navy. How in the world could "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" read the following descriptions from Kerry's C.O.'s as "unfit"?

October 19, 1967, evaluation from Captain Allen W. Slifer:
A top notch officer in every measurable trait. Intelligent, mature, and rich in educational background and experience, ENS Kerry is one of the finest young officers I have ever met and without question one of the most promising.

September 3, 1968, evaluation from Captain E.W. Harper, Jr.:
LTJG KERRY is an intelligent and competent young naval officer who has performed his duties in an excellent to outstanding manner.

December 18, 1969, evaluation from LCDR George M. Elliott:
In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every opportunity. On one occasion while in tactical command of a three boat operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly assessed the situation and ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush. This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several enemy KIA.
LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the Vietnamese language and is instrumental in the successful Vietnamese training program._
During the period of this report LTJG Kerry has been awarded the Silver Star medal, the Bronze Star medal, the Purple Heart medal (2nd and 3rd awards).

Evaluation co-signed by Joseph Streuli and George M. Elliott on January 28, 1969, and March 17, 1969, respectively:
... exhibited all of the traits of an officer in a combat environment. He frequently exhibited a high sense of imagination and judgment in planning operations against the enemy in the Mekong Delta.

March 2, 1970 evaluation from Admiral Walter F. Schlech:
... one of the finest young officers with whom I have served in a long naval career.

I could continue with more positive evaluations of Kerry's service, but quite frankly all the excellence is boring me a bit._

There aren't any negative descriptions. None.

3.__ _Perhaps more important than Kerry's C.O. evaluations are the evaluations of the men under his command. From USA Today (a Rupert Murdoch-owned paper) [correction: I'm wrong USA Today, as several helpful readers have pointed out, is owned by Gannett, but the point remains that they're no lefty outfit. My apologies for the mistake]:

Interviews with 18 officers and enlisted sailors who served with Kerry in Vietnam mostly portray a young leader with an aggressive command style. Many recall a warm, compassionate officer who cared deeply about his working-class crew. They also remember a warrior who ferried pregnant women and hungry villagers down river for medical care and food.

They recall how he initiated water-balloon fights to break the tension. How he asked his crew to call him "John" on the river and "sir" back at base. And how he listened to their problems in a way that foretold a career in politics.

"His concern for us was overwhelming," says Fred Short, a PCF-94 gunner's mate who would get the shakes when the adrenaline of battle wore off. "He would come around then and put his hand on your shoulder and ask if you're all right," says Short, 56, of North Little Rock "I never had another officer do that."

Even those soldiers who didn't like Kerry had respect for him:

"John was a master at looking out for John," says Larry Thurlow, a fellow boat commander. "John has never been bashful about saying, 'Man, I'm a war hero.' "

Yet, except for one crewmate, even those who felt betrayed by Kerry for later leading Vietnam Veterans Against the War and who call themselves Bush supporters acknowledge that he showed courage under fire. "He was extremely brave, and I wouldn't argue that point," Thurlow says. _

Stephen Gardner is the one guy who served alongside Kerry who has negative things to say about his courage under fire (some "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" guys claim they "served with" Kerry, but actually I think it would be more accurate for them to say they served "around the same time," and perhaps on a different planet, than Kerry did):

Stephen Gardner, a gunner's mate on PCF-44, spoke out for the first time last month after hearing conservative radio commentator Rush Limbaugh question Kerry's war credentials. Gardner, who says "this country's in a world of trouble" if the Democrat is elected president, calls Kerry a "hesitant" commander who shunned danger.

Gardner, 56, claims Kerry retreated during a firefight under the pretense that he wanted to get Gardner medical attention. "It was a panic run," says Gardner, who calls his wound superficial. While he refuses to call Kerry a coward, he recalls "a guy who was protecting himself most of the time."

That view does not square with the recollections of eight other enlisted sailors who served with Kerry and were interviewed for this story. Kerry and other PCF-44 veterans say the shooting was over when they turned back to base.

"I never saw John back down from anything," crewmember Bill Zaladonis says.

"I have no idea where he's coming from," Kerry says of Gardner.

Rassmann also dismisses the idea of a cautious Kerry. He says he is alive today because of Kerry's courage during a vicious battle in March 1969. The special forces soldier had been blown off PCF-94 by a mine that also injured Kerry's right arm. Swimming in the river while being strafed from both banks, Rassmann was convinced he was about to die before Kerry's boat returned. As the soldier struggled to climb scramble nets draped over the boat's bow, Kerry reached down with his uninjured arm and pulled him on board.

"He was frankly nuts coming up to the bow and exposing himself" to the barrage of bullets and mortars, Rassmann says.

4.__ _Okay, so who's behind "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth"? Two really terrific guys. Meet...

Roy Hoffman

Rear Admiral Hoffman (ret.) was a Captain who headed up a Coastal Surveillance Force unit under which Kerry served. Douglas Brinkley writes about him on pages 177 and 178 in Tour of Duty:

...The new commander, hawkish Captain Roy Hoffman was ecstatic about Sealords. He knew that military reputations were made in wartime, and he was determined to make his in Vietnam. What's more, he had a genuine taste for the more unsavory aspects of warfare, and truly wanted to smoke the Viet Cong out of their tunnels, burn their jungle outposts, and annihilate them once and for all. Decades later, many Swift boat veterans under Hoffman's command would compare him with the rough-hewn colonel in the movie Apocalypse Now who boasted that he "loved the smell of napalm in the morning." In short, Captain Hoffman sought to convince his Swift boat skippers to do whatever it took to notch splashy victories in the Mekong Delta and thereby get him promoted.

Kerry would never forget how ardently Captain Hoffman lauded the exploits of one "enterprising officer" from the Danang Swift division. The officer had surprised some thirty Vietnamese who were fishing in round, floating baskets just off the shore of a peninsula in an area that was, unfortunately for them, a free fire zone. Hoffman considered it ideal military thinking that the Swift skipper had shown the presence of mind to sneak his boat in between the baskets and the shore, cutting the fisherman off from escape and then opening fire on them. All the baskets were sunk, and so were the fishermen. "Fantastic," Hoffman reportedly proclaimed upon hearing the news. Kerry himself would later hear Hoffman praise such "industriousness" at a remarkable meeting in Saigon. Clearly, the Navy had undergone a sea change. Not only were cowboy antics on the rivers of Vietnam no longer frowned upon, they were rewarded with medals.

Sounds like one hell of an American._

Months ago, Hoffman told The Boston Globe that Kerry was a problem and asked to get more specific he said:

"He was just going off on excursions that were not part of the plan at the time." But Hoffman said those problems were corrected and that he admired the gutsy way Kerry later went after the enemy.

It sounds like Hoffman values ingenuity less than gutsiness, and perhaps discretion least of all.

The other "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" point person is...

John O'Neill

After Kerry made a mark as an anti-war veteran in 1971, he earned a spot on Nixon's enemies list. On the Nixon tapes, White House special counsel Charles Colson can be heard assuring Nixon that "We'll keep hitting him [Kerry], Mr. President." In addition to putting Kerry under FBI surveillance, Colson and Nixon recruited cleancut Vietnam vet and toe-the-line right-wing ideologue John O'Neill, who had an hour-long meeting with the President in which Nixon coached him to "Give it to him, give it to him." I've seen a picture of O'Neill and Nixon sitting in front of that White House fireplace. I suppose O'Neill saw his "Kerry character assassination" assignment from Nixon as a 33 year gig.

Although O'Neill had taken over Kerry's Swift boat command after he left Vietnam, before they met on a Dick Cavett Show debate he had never seen Kerry in person. But he despised him. He admonished Kerry everywhere for standing up against Nixon: "The President does our talking for us, as with most Americans. Mr. Kerry certainly does not."

33 years ago O'Neill wanted everyone to shut up so Richard Nixon could lay down the law, just as I'm sure he'd like to crush all dissenting voices to Bush's today. John Kerry stood up then to Nixon, and he stands up now to Bush.

According to Brinkley, O'Neill "truly believed in the U.S. incursions into Cambodia and Laos." That's pretty much all you need to know about the guy, that he would provide unwavering support for a war in Cambodia that was not only blatantly illegal, entirely secret, and abhorrently inhumane, it was also a complete tactical failure. It accomplished absolutely nothing except multiples of thousands of deaths of poor Cambodians. I can't even begin to understand somebody whose ideology is so unclean that he can see goodness in that. You could take a stroll with O'Neill and spot some dogshit and he'd try to convince you that it was a delicious green apple.

Tomorrow, I'll get a little deeper into O'Neill's ideology and the roots of his hatred for Kerry...
post #42 of 114
Point #2 they make is a little dishonest. If I understand it correctly SBVfT feel that Kerry is unfit based on what he did after he got out of the Navy. So siting his naval record and claiming that then there's nothing there to say he's "unfit" is a bit of a straw man of a rebuttal.
post #43 of 114
It is disgusting that these 'vets' would willfully lie so baldfacedly in order to get a political win . . . they should have more self-respect.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #44 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
So siting his naval record and claiming that then there's nothing there to say he's "unfit" is a bit of a straw man of a rebuttal.

Apparently you didn't read the letter and its actual requests:
Quote:
Specifically, we the undersigned formally request that you authorize the Department of the Navy to independently release your military records (through your execution of Standard Form 180), complete and unaltered, including your military medical records. Further, we call upon you to correct the misconceptions your campaign seeks to create as to your conduct while in Vietnam.
post #45 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
What say....What say....How 'bout


Why? He can't communicate in public---he has no legs [read mantra] for the media to pick up on---except for "I don't suck as bad as Bush"......sorry, I don't see the point. The only thing he hasn't done in that regard is pick Michael Moore as his VP.

Also, Kerry could be running against Fred Fintstone---it wouldn't make him an effective communicator. Hell, at least Clinton could lie effectively.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #46 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Why? He can't communicate in public---he has no legs [read mantra] for the media to pick up on---except for "I don't suck as bad as Bush"......sorry, I don't see the point. The only thing he hasn't done in that regard is pick Michael Moore as his VP.

Also, Kerry could be running against Fred Fintstone---it wouldn't make him an effective communicator. Hell, at least Clinton could lie effectively.

Oh to live life in an ivory tower with rose colored windows!!! At what point in time did reading become a gastly prospect especially when deciding on a little thing like a president? Go figure.

Oh and here's some words from the great orator---GWB!!!


Quote:
They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.

source: http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html

So, was that a Fraudian slip or what?

Genius!!! The great Communicator!!!

Also, Kerry does communicate in public as you put it. YOU have to look though because Kerry is just now getting the media coverage he should have been getting for the last month or two...
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #47 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Why? He can't communicate in public---he has no legs [read mantra] for the media to pick up on---except for "I don't suck as bad as Bush"......sorry, I don't see the point. The only thing he hasn't done in that regard is pick Michael Moore as his VP.

Also, Kerry could be running against Fred Fintstone---it wouldn't make him an effective communicator. Hell, at least Clinton could lie effectively.

Legs? Mantra? In that regard? Michael Moore? In public?

Are you sure you want this to be the post wherein you criticize Kerry's communication skills?
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #48 of 114
Ah, very interesting. I am somewhat related to one of the members of "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth", George Elliot.
post #49 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Point #2 they make is a little dishonest. If I understand it correctly SBVfT feel that Kerry is unfit based on what he did after he got out of the Navy. So siting his naval record and claiming that then there's nothing there to say he's "unfit" is a bit of a straw man of a rebuttal.

Absolutely untrue. They go to great lengths to give the impression that they "served" with Kerry and that his behavior in country (which they claim to have observed first-hand) was cowardly, glory seeking and shameful.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #50 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Oh and here's some words from the great orator---GWB!!!


Or Fred flintstone.....


I think you're missing the point here.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #51 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Legs? Mantra? In that regard? Michael Moore? In public?

Are you sure you want this to be the post wherein you criticize Kerry's communication skills?



Sorry, I'll keep my metaphors to a minimum for the eclectic intolerant here.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #52 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Sorry, I'll keep my metaphors to a minimum for the eclectic intolerant here.

There's a phrase that comes to mind here : " Clutching at straws ".
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #53 of 114
Man, they're being discredited one by one:

Quote:
But yesterday, a key figure in the anti-Kerry campaign, Kerry's former commanding officer, backed off one of the key contentions. Lieutenant Commander George Elliott said in an interview that he had made a ''terrible mistake" in signing an affidavit that suggests Kerry did not deserve the Silver Star -- one of the main allegations in the book. The affidavit was given to The Boston Globe by the anti-Kerry group to justify assertions in their ad and book.

Elliott is quoted as saying that Kerry ''lied about what occurred in Vietnam . . . for example, in connection with his Silver Star, I was never informed that he had simply shot a wounded, fleeing Viet Cong in the back."

The statement refers to an episode in which Kerry killed a Viet Cong soldier who had been carrying a rocket launcher, part of a chain of events that formed the basis of his Silver Star. Over time, some Kerry critics have questioned whether the soldier posed a danger to Kerry's crew. Crew members have said Kerry's actions saved their lives.

Yesterday, reached at his home, Elliott said he regretted signing the affidavit and said he still thinks Kerry deserved the Silver Star.

''I still don't think he shot the guy in the back," Elliott said. ''It was a terrible mistake probably for me to sign the affidavit with those words. I'm the one in trouble here."

Elliott said he was no under personal or political pressure to sign the statement, but he did feel ''time pressure" from those involved in the book. ''That's no excuse," Elliott said. ''I knew it was wrong . . . In a hurry I signed it and faxed it back. That was a mistake."

The affidavit also contradicted earlier statements by Elliott, who came to Boston during Kerry's 1996 Senate campaign to defend Kerry on similar charges, saying that Kerry acted properly and deserved the Silver Star.

The whole swift boat veterans smear campaign is collapsing.
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #54 of 114
Poor George.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #55 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Please tell me you aren't serious.


It doesn't matter how much of FAKE Kerry is exposed to be. It doesn't matter how insanely liberal he is. It doesn't matter what his voting record is. It doesn't matter how many times he's SCREWED the intel community and military and security of the United States itself. It doesn't matter that he delibrately reenacted footage after his "combat" tour. It doesn't matter that he's on VIDEO admitting war crimes.

He's not George Bush and that's all that matters to giant, et al. I wish they'd just admit it.

Calm down. I can't even tell which side you're arguing for.
post #56 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
There's a phrase that comes to mind here : " Clutching at straws ".



okay, okay......I'll stop using big words too.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #57 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Poor George.

Well he made a bad judgement in the heat of fire. Thats why he doesn´t seek promotion to commander in chief
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #58 of 114
As I said before I personally know George Elliot - he was my grandmother's stepson-in-law. I think he was sloppy in reading some of the statements he signed - he basically had a huge pile of things to take care of for publication. His reason for joining the group was that he was, and still is,dismayed over Kerry's expose of atrocities commited by American troops. His position is that the number of troops involved in such atrocities was very small, and that Kerry had implied that a majority of Vietnam vets were involved in such acts. As a retired career military officer, he feels that this besmirches the honor of those that served. The other members of the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" have used George's words to imply that he was questioning Kerry's war record, which he wasn't. Overall George is a honorable man, as evinced by his willingness to admit he was wrong. There was a lot of contention in the relationship between his wife and my garndmother, and George was able to take and objective and fair-minded assesment of the situation that no one elese involved was able to.
post #59 of 114
Hey, Check it out.

Turns out one of them is just a freeper nutcase:
Quote:
While much has been written about the identity and history of John E. O'Neill -- one of the authors of the forthcoming Regnery book Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry (whose links in the GOP go back to his days as "protégé of Nixon-era dirty trickster Charles Colson") -- little has been said about his co-author, Jerome R. Corsi, PhD.

Corsi on Islam: "a worthless, dangerous Satanic religion"

Corsi on Catholicism: "Boy buggering in both Islam and Catholicism is okay with the Pope as long as it isn't reported by the liberal press"

Corsi on Muslims: "RAGHEADS are Boy-Bumpers as clearly as they are Women-Haters -- it all goes together"

Corsi on "John F*ing Commie Kerry": "After he married TerRAHsa, didn't John Kerry begin practicing Judiasm? He also has paternal grandparents that were Jewish. What religion is John Kerry?"

Corsi on Senator "FAT HOG" Clinton: "Anybody ask why HELLary couldn't keep BJ Bill satisfied? Not lesbo or anything, is she?"

...

On Catholics and the Pope

CORSI: Maybe while he's there he can tell the UN what he's going to do about the sexual crimes committed by "priests" in his "Church" during his tenure. Or, maybe that's the connection -- boy buggering in both Islam and Catholicism is okay with the Pope as long as it isn't reported by the liberal press. (03/03/2003)

CORSI: So this is what the last days of the Catholic Church are going to look like. Buggering boys undermines the moral base and the laywers rip the gold off the Vatican altars. We may get one more Pope, when this senile one dies, but that's probably about it. (12/16/2002)

On Islam and Arabs

CORSI: Let's see exactly why it isn't the case that Islam is a worthless, dangerous Satanic religion? Where's the proof to the contrary? (04/24/2004)

CORSI: Islam is like a virus -- it affects the mind -- maybe even better as an analogy -- it is a cancer that destroys the body it infects... No doctor would hesitate to eliminate cancer cells from the body. (11/26/02)

CORSI: Islam is a peaceful religion as long as the women are beaten, the boys buggered, and the infidels killed. (11/22/2002)

CORSI: How's this as an analogy -- the Koran is simply the "software" for producing deviant cancer cell political behavior and violence in human beings. (02/15/2002)

CORSI: Think the liberal press will ever let out that these 2 were lovers -- typical Islamic boy-buggering -- older man, younger man -- black Muslims? I doubt it. Not a pretty picture, but one certain to be hidden by PC media. (11/08/2002)

CORSI: Isn't the Democratic Party the official SODOMIZER PROTECTION ASSOCIATION of AMERICA -- oh, I forgot, it was just an accident that Clintoon's first act in office was to promote "gays in the military." RAGHEADS are Boy-Bumpers as clearly as they are Women-Haters -- it all goes together. (11/18/2001)

....

[see link, keep reading]
post #60 of 114
I fear for George's safety - the freepers are not nice people. The Swift Boat website is designed by the freeper's media arm. For anyone who is not aware, the freepers are the ones who put Nick Berg's father on their enemies list. David Brock, the founder of Media Matters comes into the bookstore I work in. I heard from my mother today that George retracted his retraction. This whole thing is crazy.
post #61 of 114
Ha, even Bill O'Reilly defended Kerry on this issue. Priceless.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #62 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Oh and here's some words from the great orator---GWB!!!

What better reason to update my sigs!!!




as Freud says, we always tell the truth!!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #63 of 114
and the BEST part is McClellan's attempt to clean it up . . . which digs the hole further:

Quote:
"But the American people know this president speaks with clarity and conviction, and the terrorists know by his actions he means it," McClellan said."

"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #64 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Ha, even Bill O'Reilly defended Kerry on this issue. Priceless.

He did not exactly defend Kerry on the issue. He, in fact, believed the veteran who was speaking out against Kerry and found his recollection of events to be very credible. What O'Reilly pointed out was the fact that a lot of Americans may not think the story was all that important in the grand scheme of things. He did not exactly leap to Kerry's aid as you imply.

I repectfully disagree with O'Reilly on this one. Kerry has made a HUGE issue out of his service in Vietnam and how it relates to his fitness to be President. He hardly talked at all about his 20 years service in the Senate which only makes sense when you consider that he really has not done anything of note during that time (even though he claims to have a much more impressive record than he actually has regarding landmark legislation) except sponsor a couple of pieces of relatively insignificant legislation. But don't take my word for it:

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=134

One fact is not in dispute: Kerry lied (and this lie is contained in the Congressional Record) when he said that he was sent by our government to Cambodia. The fact is this is a lie and one he has not apparently repeated since doing so on the floor of the Senate in the 1980s during a impassioned debate regarding U.S. policy in Latin America. Again, don't take my word for it as here is an excerpt taken from the Congressional Record:

132 Cong.Rec. S3564-02
AMENDMENT NO. 1718
(Purpose: To restrict assistance to the Nicaraguan democratic resistance to
humanitarian assistance, and for other purposes)
**************
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator from Massachusetts is recognized.
Mr. KERRY. Thank you, Mr. President. ...Mr. President, I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the President of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared-seared-in me, that says to me, before we send another generation into harm's way we have a responsibility in the U.S. Senate to go the last step, to make the best effort possible in order to avoid that kind of conflict.

Need I say more? What else about his service in Vietnam might he be lying about? He certainly has flip-flopped (there are those dreaded words again) about the atrocities he said he saw and took part in over there... Did he or didn't he see and do those things? And then there was the whole medal/ribbon throwing thing. I mean, you can get dizzy just listening to the guy trying to explain himself and his actions sometimes. But to lie about something like this in an attempt to make a political point is a bit much. He already had all those medals (at least officially) that one would think he wouldn't need to lie about his service like that. He seems to have made a habit of lying in the Senate (as witness to his anti-war testimony he gave to the same body in the early 1970s that he pretty much has not stood by) so why do we need to see him in the White House as it will likely be more of the same?
post #65 of 114
Thread Starter 
I notice that this Cambodia thing is going to be the newest line against him. Apparently the Kerry campaign hasn't really disputed this, and so he probably wasn't in Cambodia. But his biography says that he was in Vietnam, an hour from Cambodia by boat. Well. So he was on a boat off Vietnam near the border of Cambodia. What a big liar. He probably shot himself to get that purple heart, too.
post #66 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I notice that this Cambodia thing is going to be the newest line against him. Apparently the Kerry campaign hasn't really disputed this, and so he probably wasn't in Cambodia. But his biography says that he was in Vietnam, an hour from Cambodia by boat. Well. So he was on a boat off Vietnam near the border of Cambodia. What a big liar. He probably shot himself to get that purple heart, too.

That was not what he said! And he told this lie while trying to influence the debate over an important piece of legislation that influenced foreign policy. That is dishonest and it is not something that should be dismissed that easily. And maybe one of the wounds he got was accidently self-inflicted as some of the Swift Boat veterans claim. Were you there to say it did not go down the way some of these guys who were there say that it did? When he get caught telling lies about his service than it makes people question other aspects of his service. That only makes sense.
post #67 of 114
Another 527 has allready come out with a rip-off add, it seems to be a very popular style.
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post #68 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by 7E7
That was not what he said! And he told this lie while trying to influence the debate over an important piece of legislation that influenced foreign policy. That is dishonest and it is not something that should be dismissed that easily. And maybe one of the wounds he got was accidently self-inflicted as some of the Swift Boat veterans claim. Were you there to say it did not go down the way some of these guys who were there say that it did? When he get caught telling lies about his service than it makes people question other aspects of his service. That only makes sense.

You're a stooge if you believe this barrage of character assasination . . . how can you regurgitate the non-stop slander machine word-for-word without even thinking about it?!

We all knew it would happen, It is the way that this dispicable mean-spirited crew of criminals have operated since they first got their dirty hands together: they did it to two other veteran/politicians who's records were equally distinguished, they destroyed them with lies and insinuations which are as dispicable as the non-stop balderdash that they are using today . . . doesn't that make you pause for a second?!

Each of the 'swift boat' vets that are now against Kerry have been, for a very long time, VERY big supporters of the GOP . . . not just in rah-rah support but in cash . . . which means that they have invested something and want a return . . . hell, they have invested their self-respect apparently . . . cause they sure don't have it anymore!!
And that is one thing that can't be returned to them no matter who wins.
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--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #69 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
You're a stooge if you believe this barrage of character assasination . . . how can you regurgitate the non-stop slander machine word-for-word without even thinking about it?!

We all knew it would happen, It is the way that this dispicable mean-spirited crew of criminals have operated since they first got their dirty hands together: they did it to two other veteran/politicians who's records were equally distinguished, they destroyed them with lies and insinuations which are as dispicable as the non-stop balderdash that they are using today . . . doesn't that make you pause for a second?!

Each of the 'swift boat' vets that are now against Kerry have been, for a very long time, VERY big supporters of the GOP . . . not just in rah-rah support but in cash . . . which means that they have invested something and want a return . . . hell, they have invested their self-respect apparently . . . cause they sure don't have it anymore!!
And that is one thing that can't be returned to them no matter who wins.

Here here!
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post #70 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by 7E7
That was not what he said! And he told this lie while trying to influence the debate over an important piece of legislation that influenced foreign policy. That is dishonest and it is not something that should be dismissed that easily. And maybe one of the wounds he got was accidently self-inflicted as some of the Swift Boat veterans claim. Were you there to say it did not go down the way some of these guys who were there say that it did? When he get caught telling lies about his service than it makes people question other aspects of his service. That only makes sense.

Yeah, he said that he was in Cambodia at a specific time that he appears not to have been. He was near the border, and he probably only actually went into Cambodia later. But it's just hard to see why this is some kind of big lie - what political gain is there in saying that he was there at a specific time, when he was really only close to being there, and was actually there later?
post #71 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
You're a stooge if you believe this barrage of character assasination . . . how can you regurgitate the non-stop slander machine word-for-word without even thinking about it?!

We all knew it would happen, It is the way that this dispicable mean-spirited crew of criminals have operated since they first got their dirty hands together: they did it to two other veteran/politicians who's records were equally distinguished, they destroyed them with lies and insinuations which are as dispicable as the non-stop balderdash that they are using today . . . doesn't that make you pause for a second?!

Each of the 'swift boat' vets that are now against Kerry have been, for a very long time, VERY big supporters of the GOP . . . not just in rah-rah support but in cash . . . which means that they have invested something and want a return . . . hell, they have invested their self-respect apparently . . . cause they sure don't have it anymore!!
And that is one thing that can't be returned to them no matter who wins.

Believe what you want but these guys are very credible if you actually take the time to listen to what they are saying. You are the stooge if you believe this is something that is politically motivated. They are now being threatened by the DNC's pack of lawyers who are using Nazi intimidation tactics. Their threats to this nation's media outlets are completely mischaracterizing (lying about) this group in their complaints to the various TV and radio stations. They claim that these guys did not serve on Kerry's boat as they claim (which they never have - they only claim to have served alongside them on other boats but still in a position to see what they are now claiming). You have NO PROOF that these guys are what you say you are. You are just regurgitating the DNC's talking points about this issue. Face it: Kerry and the DNC are scared of these guys because they are extremely credible and well-spoken. You want us all to believe that these 60 or so guys are all part of a vast conspiracy and they are willing to put their reputations on the line. I guess all 60 of these guys are lying and Kerry is the only guy that is telling the truth. So what about this Cambodia thing? I think it is becoming very clear that he lied about that. What do you have to say about this? I am sure you will come back with some lame explanation that either he was misquoted or he simply made a simple mistake. You cannot explain it that easily because he did not just say he was in Cambodia. He went on to develop this story further and it is not a situation where he got his countries mixed up. He lied. Deal with it.

It apparently is okay to trash some veterans who served their country but if you attack Kerry you are un-patriotic and un-American. These guys are signing affidavits testifying to what they saw. This is not like the bomb throwers on the left with their hit and run tactics. Kerry has not gone to the lengths this group has done to prove his side of the story. He has made statements about the war that he is not standing by and that makes a lot of people ask questions about his service. By doing so these gentlemen can be sued if their stories are proven to be false so why would they go to that length unless they actually are telling the truth? John Kerry has made his service in Vietnam the cornerstone of his campaign and is the basis for proving that he is fit to be President. I guess it is shame on us for asking questions about it when there are clearly a lot of unresolved issues regarding this apparently very important time in his life.

So cut your indignant rant and listen to what these guys have to say. Mean spirited criminals? Is this the way you treat those who serve their country? Oh, I guess it is okay if they are questioning Kerry's record. They earned the right to tell their side of the story. They were actually over there and in a position to comment on all this.
post #72 of 114
-BRussell

Yeah and Bush claims to have been in the Air national guard!
We know for sure that Kerry:
Joined the armed services during the vietnam war
Served in Vietnam
saw action

We know for sure that Bush:
Joined the air national guard
may or may not have served
sat on his ass in the USA as opposed to actually being in a war half way around the world
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post #73 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Yeah, he said that he was in Cambodia at a specific time that he appears not to have been. He was near the border, and he probably only actually went into Cambodia later. But it's just hard to see why this is some kind of big lie - what political gain is there in saying that he was there at a specific time, when he was really only close to being there, and was actually there later?

Apparently you have not been paying attention. The issue is that NOBODY is backing his story that he was ever in Cambodia - not even the illustrious "Band of Brothers" who were actually on his boat is supporting this lie. Swift boats did not serve there and were not permitted to enter Cambodia and there is no living commander that will support Kerry's ridiculous notion that he was sent to Cambodia. It is a lie - plain in simple. The Kerry campaign and the DNC is not responding to this allegation and it is clear why they have not. You cannot explain away a lie so they are simply hoping the story will go away. This is not a simple matter that he is mistaking the time period he was there: he simply never was there at any time. He certainly did not mention this story in the recent book that told his story about his service in Vietnam. Now why did he not mention it? He was only there for four months so one would think he would have talked about it since he told this impassioned story on the floor of the Senate. He simply was never there. I am waiting for a reporter to ask Kerry about this. How much do you want to bet that he won't answer the question?
post #74 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by xterra48
-BRussell

Yeah and Bush claims to have been in the Air national guard!
We know for sure that Kerry:
Joined the armed services during the vietnam war
Served in Vietnam
saw action

We know for sure that Bush:
Joined the air national guard
may or may not have served
sat on his ass in the USA as opposed to actually being in a war half way around the world

Kerry is the one making an issue of his service. Bush is running on his record as President and how he is fighting the war on terror. Kerry only wants to talk about Vietnam (at least what he wants us to know about that service rather than the whole story) rather than talk about his twenty years of service in the Senate. This is the reason why he feels he is qualified to be President. So there will be questions just as Bush has to answer questions about his actions. Deal with it.
post #75 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by 7E7
Apparently you have not been paying attention. The issue is that NOBODY is backing his story that he was ever in Cambodia - not even the illustrious "Band of Brothers" who were actually on his boat is supporting this lie. Swift boats did not serve there and were not permitted to enter Cambodia and there is no living commander that will support Kerry's ridiculous notion that he was sent to Cambodia. It is a lie - plain in simple. The Kerry campaign and the DNC is not responding to this allegation and it is clear why they have not. You cannot explain away a lie so they are simply hoping the story will go away. This is not a simple matter that he is mistaking the time period he was there: he simply never was there at any time. He certainly did not mention this story in the recent book that told his story about his service in Vietnam. Now why did he not mention it? He was only there for four months so one would think he would have talked about it since he told this impassioned story on the floor of the Senate. He simply was never there. I am waiting for a reporter to ask Kerry about this. How much do you want to bet that he won't answer the question?

Here's an anti-Kerry blog that cites excerpts from the book about his service. The blog says it contradicts Kerry's story that he was in Cambodia on Christmas 1968, which may be true, but 1) he was there at other times - one of his missions was to bring SEALs to Cambodia and 2) even on the Christmas in question, one of his crewmates said "we were getting close to Cambodia." You can read the actual excerpts for yourself in that link.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see this as a big story. Maybe he mis-remembered - after all, Bush said he watched the first plane hit the WTC live on TV, which is impossible. Or maybe he was close enough to the border that he figured he might as well have been there - remember he was in a boat, so he probably would never have gone on actual Cambodian land anyway.

I also just don't see the strategy here with keeping Kerry's Vietnam service an issue and attacking it. It's only going to backfire.
post #76 of 114
Thread Starter 
Here's my favorite blogger Kevin Drum's post on this Cambodia! Lie! story. He provides lots of links to stories on the issue.
Quote:
Conclusions? Beats me. Kerry has mentioned this story several times, so it's not a slip of the tongue. And it's plausible on its surface. Contrariwise, the evidence against him is pretty thin: not much more than the fact that no one else has verified it and keep in mind that the Swift Vets guys are not exactly disinterested witnesses in this matter. What's more, since there is exactly zero in the way of documentary evidence one way or the other, it seems unlikely that this little teapot-sized tempest will ever be conclusively resolved. Which, I suppose, suits Kerry's detractors just fine.
post #77 of 114
From WSJ

Quote:
Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush
John Kerry saved my life. Now his heroism is being questioned.

BY JIM RASSMANN
Tuesday, August 10, 2004 12:01 a.m. EDT

I came to know Lt. John Kerry during the spring of 1969. He and his swift boat crew assisted in inserting our Special Forces team and our Chinese Nung soldiers into operational sites in the Cau Mau Peninsula of South Vietnam. I worked with him on many operations and saw firsthand his leadership, courage and decision-making ability under fire.

On March 13, 1969, John Kerry's courage and leadership saved my life.

While returning from a SEA LORDS operation along the Bay Hap River, a mine detonated under another swift boat. Machine-gun fire erupted from both banks of the river, and a second explosion followed moments later. The second blast blew me off John's swift boat, PCF-94, throwing me into the river. Fearing that the other boats would run me over, I swam to the bottom of the river and stayed there as long as I could hold my breath.

When I surfaced, all the swift boats had left, and I was alone taking fire from both banks. To avoid the incoming fire, I repeatedly swam under water as long as I could hold my breath, attempting to make it to the north bank of the river. I thought I would die right there. The odds were against me avoiding the incoming fire and, even if I made it out of the river, I thought I'd be captured and executed. Kerry must have seen me in the water and directed his driver, Del Sandusky, to turn the boat around. Kerry's boat ran up to me in the water, bow on, and I was able to climb up a cargo net to the lip of the deck. But, because I was nearly upside down, I couldn't make it over the edge of the deck. This left me hanging out in the open, a perfect target. John, already wounded by the explosion that threw me off his boat, came out onto the bow, exposing himself to the fire directed at us from the jungle, and pulled me aboard.

For his actions that day, I recommended John for the Silver Star, our country's third highest award for bravery under fire. I learned only this past January that the Navy awarded John the Bronze Star with Combat V for his valor. The citation for this award, signed by the Commander of U.S. Naval Forces, Vietnam, Vice Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, read, "Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry's calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service." To this day I am grateful to John Kerry for saving my life. And to this day I still believe that he deserved the Silver Star for his courage.

It has been many years since I served in Vietnam. I returned home, got married, and spent many years as a deputy sheriff for Los Angeles County. I retired in 1989 as a lieutenant. It has been a long time since I left Vietnam, but I think often of the men who did not come home with us.

I am neither a politician nor an organizer. I am a retired police officer with a passion for orchids. Until January of this year, the only public presentations I made were about my orchid hobby. But in this presidential election, I had to speak out; I had to tell the American people about John Kerry, about his wisdom and courage, about his vision and leadership. I would trust John Kerry with my life, and I would entrust John Kerry with the well-being of our country.

Nobody asked me to join John's campaign. Why would they? I am a Republican, and for more than 30 years I have largely voted for Republicans. I volunteered for his campaign because I have seen John Kerry in the worst of conditions. I know his character. I've witnessed his bravery and leadership under fire. And I truly know he will be a great commander in chief.

Now, 35 years after the fact, some Republican-financed Swift Boat Veterans for Bush are suddenly lying about John Kerry's service in Vietnam; they are calling him a traitor because he spoke out against the Nixon administration's failed policies in Vietnam. Some of these Republican-sponsored veterans are the same ones who spoke out against John at the behest of the Nixon administration in 1971. But this time their attacks are more vicious, their lies cut deep and are directed not just at John Kerry, but at me and each of his crewmates as well. This hate-filled ad asserts that I was not under fire; it questions my words and Navy records. This smear campaign has been launched by people without decency, people who don't understand the bond of those who serve in combat.

As John McCain noted, the television ad aired by these veterans is "dishonest and dishonorable." Sen. McCain called on President Bush to condemn the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush ad. Regrettably, the president has ignored Sen. McCain's advice.



Does this strategy of attacking combat Vietnam veterans sound familiar? In 2000, a similar Republican smear campaign was launched against Sen. McCain. In fact, the very same communications group, Spaeth Communications, that placed ads against John McCain in 2000 is involved in these vicious attacks against John Kerry. Texas Republican donors with close ties to George W. Bush and Karl Rove crafted this "dishonest and dishonorable" ad. Their new charges are false; their stories are fabricated, made up by people who did not serve with Kerry in Vietnam. They insult and defame all of us who served in Vietnam.

But when the noise and fog of their distortions and lies have cleared, a man who volunteered to serve his country, a man who showed up for duty when his country called, a man to whom the United States Navy awarded a Silver Star, a Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts, will stand tall and proud. Ultimately, the American people will judge these Swift Boat Veterans for Bush and their accusations. Americans are tired of smear campaigns against those who volunteered to wear the uniform. Swift Boat Veterans for Bush should hang their heads in shame.

Mr. Rassmann, a retired lieutenant with the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, served with the U.S. Army 5th Special Forces Group in Vietnam 1968-69

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editor...l?id=110005460
post #78 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Here's my favorite blogger Kevin Drum's post on this Cambodia! Lie! story. He provides lots of links to stories on the issue.

Like everything Kerry does in his life, we have multiple versions of what exactly he did during that time period. Does he ever stick with one story or one position? If he did, there would be a lot fewer questions about him. I have heard a lot of military folks weigh in on this (none whom were the Swifties) and they say it would be very highly unlikely that Kerry would have been there as Cambodia at that time was pretty much the the exclusive province of special operations units (SEALS/Green Berets/SOG) or CIA operatives - remember this is before Nixon ordered the invasion of Cambodia in 1970. The chance that a regular naval unit like Kerry's being there are extremely remote if not impossible. I don't hear the Kerry camp defending his Cambodia story so clearly they are hoping that it will just go away.
post #79 of 114
Quote:
Originally posted by 7E7
Like everything Kerry does in his life, we have multiple versions of what exactly he did during that time period. Does he ever stick with one story or one position? If he did, there would be a lot fewer questions about him.

Like everything Bush does in his life, we have multiple versions of what exactly he did during that time period. Does he ever stick with one story or one position? If he did, there would be a lot fewer questions about him.

At least he's got those military payroll documents to back up his claimed duty record..... oh, wait....
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post #80 of 114
here is another lengthy quote . . . from an op ed written by veterans against veteran's slander:

Quote:
"As was shamefully done previously against decorated veterans like John McCain and Max Cleland, extreme right-wing groups such as the so-called 'Swift-Boat Veterans for Truth' are again spreading lies meant to discredit a decorated veteran. A veteran who volunteered for combat, who was brave enough not only to withstand the rigors of battle but then the equally difficult struggle to speak the truth about war's inevitable dark side: savagery, stupidity, recklessness, maiming, and death. These are the truths of every war -- those necessary and those avoidable; those just and those unjust.

"The slander about John Kerry's Purple Hearts and courage in command is fallacious at best and spuriously shameful. More, the attacks against Kerry's post-discharge protest of Vietnam represent a concerted attempt to prevent others from speaking the necessary truth of their experience by those too cowardly to admit their own share in our flawed humanity -- and war is nothing if not a showcase for our flaws. The old veterans' saying goes: If you haven't been there, you just don't know. But more, if you've been there and perpetuate the myths, you know even less.

"We are children of the Vietnam-Era: Its veterans, its troubles. In time, we became the veterans of our nation's 'Cable News Wars' in the Persian Gulf, Somalia, Haiti, Afghanistan, and Iraq -- we know all-too-well the difficulties in communicating the ambiguous truths of our wars. But, as writers, we tried. We have each, in our own way, attempted to create a space where honest talk about war can occur without sanction: in the privacy of a book's pages. More than ever, our country needs an open dialogue about what war is, what happens there, and what it can do to the souls of those who serve, whether or not the original call to war was based on a noble purpose."

"'Swift-Boat Veterans for Truth' (a group without a single member who actually served in combat with Kerry) is attacking Kerry for, among other things, telling the truth about his war. If they succeed, hundreds of thousands of young soldiers and Marines will find it that much more difficult to tell their difficult stories -- whether heroic, tragic, barbaric, or all three -- when they return from Iraq and Afghanistan. So that another generation of veterans will not be rent by the difficult choice between living with a lie and feeling shamed for telling the truth, we ask you: do not listen to those who would distort a brave man's struggle. They pursue their own sad grudges and the paltry gains of partisan fervor, and if they become the loudest voice of "truth," all veterans will sustain the wound."


Signed,

Christian Bauman, US Army (Somalia, Haiti), author of The Ice Beneath You.
Andrew Exum, US Army (Afghanistan, Iraq), author of This Man's Army.
Joel Turnipseed, US Marine Corps (Persian Gulf War), author of Baghdad Express.
Buzz Williams, US Marine Corps (Persian Gulf War), author of Spare Parts.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
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