Check out this attack ad on Kerry - Page 3

This is a good Jon Stewart on the vets


BTW, I saw the add air here in Wisconsin . . . it comes across as an incredibly mean-spirited attack add . . . I can't he;p but to think that this add will do harm to the Republican party . . . it is so obvious: it is outright character assasination without any other reason for being . . . is that the kind of people that we want to run our country?

Let's see here... What we have are 60 or so VIETNAM WAR VETERANS who are saying these things. Just because a guy is running as a Democrat for President does that mean others WHO WERE THERE IN A POSITION TO OBSERVE WHAT HAPPENED have no right to exercise their right to free speech and to tell their side of the story? These guys are putting their reputations on the line to say what they feel needs to be said. Why are you questioning their integrity like this? They fought for their country and earned the right to speak out. You don't know these guys at all at you are assuming that the GOP and the RNC are behind this. And there is nothing illegal about their ads - they are not telling you who to vote for. These are simply people who know John Kerry and want to tell the American people what they know about him. Let the American people make up their own minds about this. Are you scared that what they say might be true?

Why don't you speak out against these ads that these pro-Kerry groups are putting out slandering the President and comparing him to Hitler? At least the White House has said they will not question Kerry's Vietnam service. Has Bush EVER said anything about this controversy? But we all know Kerry is continuing to advance the BIG LIE that Bush misled and lied to the nation about Iraq and the WMD. The difference is the DNC and the Kerry campaign embrace these hate mongers and the Bush campaign remains above the fray simply by asking Kerry to clarify his positions which we all know change by the day and the hour. Kerry is the one that keeps wanting to talk about Vietnam while give no concrete plan how he will fight the war on terror. We need details and we aren't getting them. If he wants to continue to live in the past then that past will come back to haunt him because like everything else about Kerry there are more questions than answers.

Because Bush lied and misled while he was president, not in the 1960s.

A big difference there.

Oh, you mean they too ran up the hill in the heat of battle and watched Kerry 'shoot a teen in the back'?
no
They were on his boat when he turned it around under fire?
no
They were in Vietnam . . . they 'served with him' . . . its pathetic really.




Do you mean their reputations as die-hard Republican party supporters and donation givers? Or do you mean, like Corsi, their reputations as extreme right-wing borderline nut-cases?


What integrity?


Which is exactly why they hate Kerry, because he spoke out against the Vietnam war, and like many reactionaries here, they feel that that is a betrayal of the military: hence their quotes that are taken out of that context and made to seem generalized about the entire man and his entire experience in the war


No, they don't know John Kerry, and that is exactly the point . . . they are lying when they say that they do. Just like this doctor is clearly lying when he remembers an 'insignificant wound' from some Naval Officer in the middle of a long war filled with virtually innumerable wounded soldiers . . . 'integrity' my ass!!


Not at all, I know that they are a lying gang of partisan stooges working for the behind the scenes Rove attack machine . . . it is TYPICAL TYPICAL TYPICAL . . . they did exactly the same thing to two other highly respected soldier's reputations with regards to the war . . . one of them even gave up three limbs for his country and yet the idiot attack machine kept you fuucking moron ass-lickers from questioning it!!!


Yeah, why don't I . . . oh . . . oops, IIRC I did find them distasteful . . . (I'll look for a link)


It is obvious that the Rove machine works through myriad sources, most of them not publicly acknowledged extensions of his system. Hell, look at the censorship campaign against Moore: RNC websites . . . before they realized people could tell that was who was behind them . . . then they rushed to switch site-hosts


Bush lied while in office, and the lie resulted in many deaths and an estrangement of America from the rest of the world (an unnecessary estrangement), he destroyed the credibility of the Office Of the President more so than any other President due to the seriousness of the blunder -foreign policy catastrophe vs domestic crime (Nixon) BJ (Clinton) Reagan's Iran-Contra is almost as bad, but it seems that he got away with it) Kerry did some heroic deeds followed by critique of the War, so long ago that politically motivated people know that they can distort it completely in order to smear him and there will be no way of factually pointing it out . . . kinda like the fact that loosing three limbs for your country can appear to not matter when smeared by Rove . .

ANd, the people who are upset that Bush lied to get us into a politically motivated war are not 'hate mongers' . . . quite the opposite (though naturally they hate people who create unnecessarily murderous situations) while the SVVFT are motivated by a politics that seems to truly thrive off of and love to generate, hate.

And as for Bush remaining 'above the fray' . . . HA! He is so neck deep in smear-campaigns it is absurd that you could even hint of 'innocence'!! Gimme a &^*&(^ break-!!
They ask for slogans --and his supporters, clearly only understand slogans-- for one reason and one reason only: they know that Kerry will answer in thoughtful responses, and thought does not lend itself to the attack analysis that is sure to follow: hence the notion of 'nuance' . . . sad really, that an C student, who mocks the very legacy system which allowed him to get into YALE, can make the appearance of willful stupidity, in the form of slogans, seem like a virtue.

And you have ACTUAL proof of this? Saying that he did does not make it so...

I was watching an interview with former USMC Col. Bill Cowan and he made a good point that often it is easier for somebody not directly in your squad (or in Kerry's case on the same boat) to see what actually is going on in a combat situation because perhaps they are not engaged in as much hostile fire. Therefore they may be in a better position to observe the actions of the people who are in the fight. And swift boats did tend to patrol in groups - not as single boat patrols. I don't imagine some of you out there were aware of that...

As for Mr. Corsi, he was not one of the swift boat veterans so I might give Pfflam that one. But is he saying that EVERY one of these veterans is a die-hard Republican and donation giver? That would seem a bit odd that such a high percentage of these guys would be so political as to stake their personal reputations on this thing. But we all know how big conspiracy theorists you guys can be. What I don't see here are people like Michael Moore who is as partisan a bomb thrower as there is today and a billionaire like George Soros who is willing to spend a huge chunk of his personal wealth simply to defeat Bush. These are the people whose motives should really be questioned. Moore clearly has no problem with passing off lies as the truth even if he has to fabricate stories to prove his point. And Soros is another story all together. He is downright scary and his background is worth a closer look - perhaps when we have more time to delve into his story. I don't see the same thing happening in the case of these veterans. These are AVERAGE AMERICANS who see Kerry differently because they were there to see him in action. Check the records on these guys if you must. You will find they were in Vietnam when they said they were and they served in the unit they said they did. And besides, it would be very interesting to me to find that all these guys are so wealthy that they have big bucks to throw at Republicans running for office. That totally goes against the grain especially since most anti-war activists claim that it is the poor that are sent to the fight. Are you saying that this Navy unit by some strange quirk of fate just happened to be populated disproportionately by people who all ended up turning into wealthy Republicans later in life? Sometimes you need to look at the DNC's talking points with a more critical eye because often they make little or no sense at all.

If Kerry has that much integrity than why does he not stand by his anti-war statements anymore? Why has he bought up the publishing rights of his anti-war book at considerable cost and is steadfastly not allowing it to be re-published? You will never convince me of what a stand-up guy he was for speaking out. He tarnished the reputation of his fellow veterans by spreading a pack of lies that have never been supported by the facts. And many of the allegations made in the book were made by people who never even served in Vietnam. We should not have to go and spend a few hundred dollars on eBay to get a copy of his book to read. Does that not make you wonder whether he was being truthful or not about his service and his experience in Vietnam? He clearly does not want the American people to see it because it is as bogus a book that has ever been written about that war and there is nothing in there that would make the average American want to elect him as President.

I also heard an interview with Dr. Letson (the physician who treated Kerry's wound) and he said that what made this particular incident memorable was the insignificance of the wound combined with several of Kerry's crew who mentioned to them that Kerry's ambition was to be President someday. I am sure many people would agree that would make an incident like that memorable if nothing more than because of the sheer arrognace that statement imparts.


By the way I saw John McCain stumping for Bush this week so let's not get this all out of proportion. He knows Bush was not the one who attacked his integrity although I will never understand how McCain has forgiven Kerry for taking the actions he did denouncing the war while he was being held captive in Hanoi. Kerry's treason made McCain's life a living hell because the NVA used Kerry's statements against him and made it easier for them to break the will and spirit of those held prisoner. In fact Kerry is considered by the North Vietnamese to be a great hero to them and one of the big reasons why they ended up winning the war.

And let's not make Karl Rove out to be some mythical figure. He is just another political operative like a James Carville, Paul Begala and Terry McAuliffe. He is no better or worse than any of these guys. The DNC is being heavy-handed also in threatening any media outlet who runs the Swift Boat Veterans' ad. Even their complaint against the Swifties is full of lies and inaccuracies.

And we also need to get off the "Bush lied" line of argument. Every official investigation into this showed definitively that he did not lie and there was no intent to mislead anybody. You can believe what you want but the facts prove otherwise. You can repeat this fiction all you want but it will always remain some warped private fantasy for you guys. Oh, I guess it is okay to smear some veterans but if they are a Vietnam veteran and a DEMOCRAT they are never to be spoken ill of. I am not going to lose sleep if guys like Kerry or Cleland get roughed up a bit - they are politicians after all and this is what they signed up for. Politics is a blood sport and is not for the faint of heart. But these other guys are just regular people who have regular lives and real jobs that extend beyond the insular world of Washington politics. There is more to living in this world than being a career politician and living life off the public dole.

What is meant by the phrase politically motivated war? How so? Are you another one of these idiots who think it was all about oil just like Afghanistan was all about the building of some fictional pipeline that will never be built because it was never any part of the reason why we invaded in the first place? Geez, you guys have so many crazy and paranoid ideas that it is a wonder how the white coats haven't swooped down and grabbed you already. "It's true! It's all true!" I hear you cackle with a crazed stare on your face as they place you into the back of the rubber truck...

There is so much slime coming from the left I cannot believe that you aren't aware of it by now. If you want to know what character assassination really is just look at the ads from MoveOn.org. And what of Kerry's comments about Bush's actions in the classroom on 9/11? And this is coming from a guy who admitted that he and his colleagues in the Congress were paralyzed to the point that they could not think for 45 MINUTES because they were so stunned and shocked. They actually had to be told to evacuate the building! They were actually waiting to be told what to do next! Now that type of behavior is consistent for a Democrat - they need to be told by the government what to do. But he seems to have forgotten that he is part of the government. Who is supposed to tell the government what to do? Hmmm... To me that comment from Kerry was as slimy a cheap shot as I have ever seen. The teacher in the classroom that day (a lifelong Democrat BTW) said she found Bush's demeanor to be entirely apparopriate and admirable. He stayed calm and did not panic - which to me is a sign of a great leader. In fact, she plans to vote for Bush this time around because she was so impressed with him that day...

Thoughtful responses from Kerry? How can you say that when he never makes any sense? I get tired of you so-called intellectuals who think that being President requires a member of Mensa. Give me a break! The last thing we need is a guy who thinks about problems all day but never gets around to doing anything about any of them because they need to study the issue just a little longer. Bush is not stupid and if you have not figured that out by now then perhaps you aren't as smart as you think you are. If Kerry was so damn smart and so damn thoughtful than why does he change his positions so often? You would think that all the time he spends formulating an opinion that he would have gotten the right answer by now. Every sign shows that Kerry would be a pathetic leader because he cannot make decisions with any clarity or conviction. He is definitely not what we need when it comes to the war on terror. By the time he decides to do anything we won't have enough body bags to go around. This is serious business and it needs to be handled by serious people who are willing to make tough decisions and stand by them. Kerry has never shown that ability and at his age I don't think he is going to start now.

Since we're splitting hairs about service and dishonesty, I thought I'd post this for everyone's review:

I just want to point out, for about the hundredth time, that even aside from the whole awol/desertion dishonesty, there is absolutely no dispute that Bush, in his autobiography, lied about his service while in TANG.

I'm sure this will be on Wolf Blitzer's show this evening. NOT!

From Conason:


Bush only continued to fly for 22 months. But you want see this little fact repeated over and over again on the so-called liberal media, will you?

Whatever. Just for example, Kerry didn't attack Bush's performance in the school room on 9/11. He was asked point blank what he would have done, and he replied that he would have excused himself and left. Which is what pretty much any sane person would have done.

Bush slams 'nuance' with monosyllabic sound-bytes . . .. the audience eats it up:

But if anyone cared to read, his nuggets are easily shown false.
The problem is, of course, that those who like Bush either don't care or will only listen to sound-bytes:

Excellent post.

Let's all join hands and say it together: Kerry voted to give the president the authority to go to war, if all else failed. He still thinks it was the right thing to do to vote for give the president authority.

He also believes that the president abused that authority by not allowing the process of inspections and cooperation to move forward. History has shown that belief to be sound.

While we're at it, Kerry voted for a version of an appropriations bill, and against a different version. That is absolutely standard operating procedure in the Senate. Bush himself threatened to veto a version of the same bill.

Got it? The whole Kerry flip-flopper, doesn't know what he thinks about the war, changes his mind all the time slur is BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT.

Anyone posting here that wants to continue to pretend that they "can't follow" all of Kerry's "reversals" are either: too stupid to follow a simple chain of reasoning, too cynical to admit the obvious, too partisan to pay attention, or all three.

I'm guessing, in most cases, here abouts, it's all three.

Is that story off your blog, pfflam? Can you post a link? I'd like to see your other stuff.

Sorry . . . didn't mean to take credit I jus didn't list my source: salon.com war room.

Speaking of blogs, here's a great "bumper sticker" explanation of Kerry's Iraq position from The Daily Howler:

"I voted to give Bush the authority. Then Bush fucked it up"

Which comes at the end of a discussion about why this simple concept is so hard for the Washington press corps to grasp.

Who would have thunk it.... here we have democrats criticizing republicans for avoiding Vietnam.....and republicans criticizing democrats for volunteering...

And meanwhile, check out this latest anti-Kerry ad

Even O'Rielly finds teh Swift vets' add to be a disgrace and thinks that it might backfire: HERE

GASP
I.... agree..... with...... Bill O'Reilly?

Ahhhh!!! Cats and dogs living together! Mass hysteria!!

So the washington post is saying that one of swiftie's own military records contradict his attack on kerry.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer

You guys are KILLING me.

Why are any of you schilling for an massivley corrupt system of political swine?


Pure and simple truth on Kerry:

1. He gets major points for getting shot at. Anyone out on patrol in hostile territory has to have at least one Big Hairy One if not a full pair. Get over it.

2. He is a rich kid who knowlingly chiseled his experience for political gain---then had a major consience attack---but since he's a political swine, hey, what the hell, focus groups like the war hero thing so he pushes that angle.

End of Story! Go argue on another thread. Don't any of you people know a real live politician?!! Stop living in this pollyanna pancea!


[EDIT]

Instead of government we had a stage
Instead of ideas, a prima donna's rage
Instead of help we were given a crowd
She didn't say much, but she said it loud

Kerry speaks out:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...ads/index.html

"Politicians are the same all over, they promise to build a bridge, even where there is no river."

-Nikita Khrushchev

Actually, he wasn't a rich kid, he was a diplomat's kid, and his father wasn't wealthy . . . he was networked though, to politically important people: hence the boat-ride with JFK.

sorry, bad choice of words---"privileged" would have been better

"privileged" what . . . to have known and learned from people that one should be lucky in life to be able to see in person?!?!

As usual DMZ I'm befuddled by your response? What would you have everyone do? Not talk about political issues? Just blindly accept the accounts of one political faction while ignoring the others? What would you have us do? Seriously. Your post is completly irrevelent to any part of this thread--as usual. How 'bout we all forget science, math, physics, geology, etc and return ourselves to a feudal era? How's that?

<sarcasm>DMZ: Guys, guys your talking about (GASP)politics(GASP)!!! Your supporting a corrupt system which I've yet to offer a solution for. Your supporting either of two parties. Where's the third party? I demand a third party!!!<sarcasm>

What would you propose everyone do? Don't wax philosophical and dodge the question either. You tend to do that in 99 out of 100 posts. Answer the question in as direct a manner as you possibly can. What would you propose we all do?

Have fun, enjoy.

Well faust9, let me put it this way: with thinking like yours, the American Rebellion would have never happened.


(Part of the cycle of violence that traps abused victims is the vicitim's feeling of helpless at the end of each cycle.)

What the hell are you talking about?!?

\

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Nevermind, this was my mistake.

Apparently.

Definitely not the most elegant backpedal I've ever seen, but still amusing... and that is after all why I still hang out here.