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"I had an abortion" t-shirts for sale! - Page 2

post #41 of 101
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
I don't see how you can make a statement like this and then claim to be pro-choice. If you believe abortion to be a shameful thing, don't have one. Don't assume the responsibility of telling people how they should feel based on your beliefs.

He can claim to be pro-choice because he believes abortion should be safe and legal. That's all it takes. You don't have to love the things that you want people to be free to do. Isn't that the basic premise of liberalism? "I disapprove of what you say, but would defend your right to say it" and all that?
post #42 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
But that's really what I'm talking about. Why wouldn't you want to expose them? The reason you wouldn't want to expose them is that they're private and personal, and other people just don't need to know about it. Just like abortion. Masturbation is natural and normal and everyone does it, and yet I can't believe you wouldn't think it was strange and silly if someone wore a shirt proclaiming that they do it.

I don´t have any problems with what you write

The problem I have is reactions like pfflams: that you should be ashamed to get an abortion.
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post #43 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
He can claim to be pro-choice because he believes abortion should be safe and legal. That's all it takes. You don't have to love the things that you want people to be free to do. Isn't that the basic premise of liberalism? "I disapprove of what you say, but would defend your right to say it" and all that?

Perhaps I was being a little unfair...but I do think that support for a woman's right to choose is diminished if it goes hand in hand with condemnation for their exercising that right.
post #44 of 101
Northgate:

Quote:
I think it's tasteless and damages the pro choice movement

pfflam:

Quote:
that is really repugnant and thouroughly discredits pro-choice stance. . . . what is worse if the notion in the rhetoric that accompanies the shirt that makes it seem that an abortion is something that someone should not be ashamed of . . . . OF COURSE you should BE ASHAMED if you had an abortion . . . it isn't something to sing songs of joy about!!!

I never thought I'd say this with respect to the both of you...but, AGREED.

Shawn,

I think you're very misguided on this issue. Whether one supports legal abortion or not, abortion is taking the life of a child. No matter what the circumstances, that's a sad thing...even if it is needed or chosen.


Quote:
I'm sorry about your mom. But the social stigma attached to removing life support is not nearly the same as the stigma attached to abortion. That's the reason for wearing the shirt- to subvert and confront the stigma. I'm sure most generally are sympathetic to your situation, with a few notable exceptions. Here, clearly, it's the other way around.

Wow, I'm sorry...but you must be from another planet. God forbid we have a society that <GASP> thinks abortion should be relatively private. I think what you really want is to make abortion socially acceptable. It's not and it shouldn't be. People DO make moral judgments about those who've had abortions because said individuals have opted to take a life. That's a personal decision under our laws, but don't expect me or anyone else to just shrug and say "Not that there's anything wrong with that."

There IS something wrong with it, even if it is legal. It doesn't mean I think the person who had one is "evil" or even a bad person. It means that I think it's a serious thing to take human life. It's absolutely REPUGNANT and DISGUSTING to seel shirts that advertise the fact that one had an abortion.
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post #45 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
Perhaps I was being a little unfair...but I do think that support for a woman's right to choose is diminished if it goes hand in hand with condemnation for their exercising that right.

Choices have consequences. I suppose that pretty soon we're going to start the "abortion is not a choice" argument".


World...

Hell...

Handbasket.
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post #46 of 101
There's no shame in being raped. There's no shame in being a victim of incest. There's no shame in having sex with your boyfriend and the condom breaks. There's no shame in being foolish enough to believe some idiot who preaches the rhythm method and then being wise enough not to give birth to a child when that's not what you want to do or are capable of supporting.

There are many reasons someone who has had an abortion should not feel ashamed about it.
post #47 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001


Wow, I'm sorry...but you must be from another planet. God forbid we have a society that <GASP> thinks abortion should be relatively private. I think what you really want is to make abortion socially acceptable. It's not and it shouldn't be. People DO make moral judgments about those who've had abortions because said individuals have opted to take a life. That's a personal decision under our laws, but don't expect me or anyone else to just shrug and say "Not that there's anything wrong with that."

I would be disappointed if you said that

No I dont want to make you think that abortion is 10-4 (well I do but ...well you know what I mean). But neither would I want women who think its okay to have an abortion to be shy about it just because there is someone out there who don´t want to know "bad stuff" like that happens in the world.
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post #48 of 101
Our protests are peaceful and informative. We walk on the sidewalk where it is legal. We carry signs. We often sing. We have information about alternatives available. It amazes me how many of you who got so up at arms about a few terrorists on a leash take the murder of innocent babies so lightly.

Moe
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post #49 of 101
Other than me, are there any pro-life'rs that are liberal and secular?
post #50 of 101
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
Other than me, are there any pro-life'rs that are liberal and secular?

Probably not, but it sure seems like the vast majority base their position on religious ideas. And that's strange because I don't think there's anything in the Bible or that Jesus said that would suggest abortion should be outlawed. There's "thou shalt not kill" in the 10 commandments, but that's really the debate - is abortion killing/murder?
post #51 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Probably not, but it sure seems like the vast majority base their position on religious ideas. And that's strange because I don't think there's anything in the Bible or that Jesus said that would suggest abortion should be outlawed. There's "thou shalt not kill" in the 10 commandments, but that's really the debate - is abortion killing/murder?

The ironic twist here is "Thou shalt not kill" in any of its forms was/is originally an Old Testiment law. The practioners of the Old Testiment--The Jewish People--are not morally opposed to abortion. The fetus/embryo is not alive until god breaths breath into the child. That doesn't mean Jewish people are given free reign to have abortions. Jewish women can only have them if the pregnancy is life threatening because the fetus/embryo is a part of the woman until birth. Its odd though that Jews don't attach the same moral stigma to abortion as Christians do. Moreover, many Asia cultures also view abortion as an acceptible means of birth control. Buddhists feel abortion is wrong, but so is killing any animal. People who kill for whatever reason will have to answer their own demons in the afterlife according to Buddhist. Practioners of Shinto see abortion as giving the child back to the gods and attack nor moral stigmal to the act. In China abortion is an exceedingly acceptible solution with no moral stigma(except among Christians and Muslims).

Personally I am against abortion. If my wife had one for convenience I'd probably leave her. To me its murder unless the life of the mother is at stake. My view extends only to my direct family unit though. What right do I have to impose my views across the pickett fences of my neighborhood? None because my view is religiously based while my neighbors may have a different view of religion and abortion altogether.
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post #52 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Whether one supports legal abortion or not, abortion is taking the life of a child.

Whoa there. I realize you're trying to sound tolerant, and I appreciate that, but phrasing the question as you did is exactly why this issue is so polarized. The whole point is that while you might think it's the murder of a child, lots of other sane, right-thinking people do not. And pro-choice people believe that in a secular nation, it's immoral and improper for you to impose your religious value judgments on everyone else. To participate meaningfully in the national debate on this subject, you have to understand that, even if you don't agree with it.
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
Other than me, are there any pro-life'rs that are liberal and secular?

There are plenty of liberal, secular pro-lifers out there, but most of them happen to also be pro-choice. Like Mario Cuomo, like John Kerry, like many pro-choice Republicans. Like me. I used to be a viciously pro-life, anti-choice Catholic (and not a particularly liberal one), until - this is going to sound condescending, but I don't mean it that way - I grew up and opened my mind. My values didn't change, but I recognize that they're my values. As above, the essence of pro-choice is not love of abortion, but realization that your personal religious or moral beliefs, especially on as muddied as issue as this one, should not be imposed on others against their will. Thus, most secular, liberal folks who personally don't believe in abortion still seek to defend the right of others to make their own choice. Just like BRussell said a few posts above.
post #53 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Why wouldn't you want to expose them? The reason you wouldn't want to expose them is that they're private and personal, and other people just don't need to know about it. Just like abortion. Masturbation is natural and normal and everyone does it, and yet I can't believe you wouldn't think it was strange and silly if someone wore a shirt proclaiming that they do it.

You're 100% wrong. These are reasons why YOU wouldn't let the information out. Someone else might not give a shit. In a public place, it's wrong to ask the rest of the world to shelter you. If you don't like something, it's your responsibility to stay away. If you don't like sunlight, you can't have the government block out the sun.

Should people stop wearing crosses or burkas because it's 'personal' like masturbation?
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post #54 of 101
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
You're 100% wrong. These are reasons why YOU wouldn't let the information out. Someone else might not give a shit. In a public place, it's wrong to ask the rest of the world to shelter you. If you don't like something, it's your responsibility to stay away. If you don't like sunlight, you can't have the government block out the sun.

Should people stop wearing crosses or burkas because it's 'personal' like masturbation?

You seem to be suggesting that one can't have opinions about the behavior of others. That seems unrealistic. I think people shouldn't smoke. I think people shouldn't make racist comments. I think bald men shouldn't wear comb-overs. Note that in none of those cases do I want the government involved, as you suggest above. I'm also not asking to be sheltered, I'm simply expressing my opinion of what I view as bad or tasteless behavior; I also believe it would be tasteless for someone to wear an "I had an abortion" t-shirt.

To believe in freedom doesn't mean to lose discernment. To oppose government restriction doesn't mean to oppose personal disapproval. To me, that's the essence of liberalism.

Let me ask you: Is there anything (speech, behavior, etc.) that you would oppose the gov't regulating, and yet you would personally disapprove? Or does your personal opinion always = your beliefs about what government should do, so that if bunge approves, the gov't shouldn't regulate, and if bunge opposes, bunge wants a law against it?
post #55 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
You seem to be suggesting that one can't have opinions about the behavior of others.

Saying someone shouldn't wear the shirt goes beyond an opinion though, at least as I read it. Your opinion is that you don't want to have to see someone wearing it, but saying someone shouldn't goes beyond. You're attempting to change another person's behavior, which is why I say it's more than simply opinion.

Yes, obviously you're welcome to your opinion, but once you say someone has to change their behavior because of your opinion you move into the realm of regulation. I didn't mean to blur the lines, split hairs or whatever.

As for your direct question, I definitely don't want the government to regulate any speech and personally oppose none. But, if there was some I did oppose of I wouldn't want it regulated.
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post #56 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Saying someone shouldn't wear the shirt goes beyond an opinion though, at least as I read it. Your opinion is that you don't want to have to see someone wearing it, but saying someone shouldn't goes beyond. You're attempting to change another person's behavior, which is why I say it's more than simply opinion.

Yes, obviously you're welcome to your opinion, but once you say someone has to change their behavior because of your opinion you move into the realm of regulation. I didn't mean to blur the lines, split hairs or whatever.

As for your direct question, I definitely don't want the government to regulate any speech and personally oppose none. But, if there was some I did oppose of I wouldn't want it regulated.

Actually, I'd argue that the opinion is "I don't like that shirt."
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post #57 of 101
"I masturbate. So what."

I'd wear that on a t-shirt.

I don't think the "I had an abortion" t-shirts are that great, but I'd love for women to start wearing "I was raped" t-shirts. Or "I was raped and had an abortion". Take the shame out of being a rape victim. Let women know they are at risk and let other rape victims know that it's nothing to be ashamed about.
post #58 of 101
Is it possible to be pro-life AND pro-choice? I don't think they are mutually exclusive. I think abortion is wrong like I think punching someone in the face is wrong. But there are times when either one may be necessary.
post #59 of 101
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
"I masturbate. So what."

I'd wear that on a t-shirt.

Ha, I'd like to see that. Make it a bet.
post #60 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by Towel
Whoa there. I realize you're trying to sound tolerant, and I appreciate that, but phrasing the question as you did is exactly why this issue is so polarized. The whole point is that while you might think it's the murder of a child, lots of other sane, right-thinking people do not. And pro-choice people believe that in a secular nation, it's immoral and improper for you to impose your religious value judgments on everyone else. To participate meaningfully in the national debate on this subject, you have to understand that, even if you don't agree with it.There are plenty of liberal, secular pro-lifers out there, but most of them happen to also be pro-choice. Like Mario Cuomo, like John Kerry, like many pro-choice Republicans. Like me. I used to be a viciously pro-life, anti-choice Catholic (and not a particularly liberal one), until - this is going to sound condescending, but I don't mean it that way - I grew up and opened my mind. My values didn't change, but I recognize that they're my values. As above, the essence of pro-choice is not love of abortion, but realization that your personal religious or moral beliefs, especially on as muddied as issue as this one, should not be imposed on others against their will. Thus, most secular, liberal folks who personally don't believe in abortion still seek to defend the right of others to make their own choice. Just like BRussell said a few posts above.

It's taking the life of a child. Period. If you can't admit that, then there is nothing to discuss. With modern technology, we can see that fetuses yawn and stretch and such at like 10 weeks. It's a life. End of story.
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post #61 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
"I masturbate. So what."

I'd wear that on a t-shirt.

I don't think the "I had an abortion" t-shirts are that great, but I'd love for women to start wearing "I was raped" t-shirts. Or "I was raped and had an abortion". Take the shame out of being a rape victim. Let women know they are at risk and let other rape victims know that it's nothing to be ashamed about.

And you honestly think that would help them not feel shame? I know someone who was raped. She doesn't like to talk about it. She doesn't want her life to be about being raped. Wearing a goddamn T shirt isn't going to help people who get raped feel any better.
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post #62 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by Outsider
Is it possible to be pro-life AND pro-choice? I don't think they are mutually exclusive. I think abortion is wrong like I think punching someone in the face is wrong. But there are times when either one may be necessary.

That's pretty much my position. Actually, abortion is an issue I'm not sure I've made up my mind on.
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post #63 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
And you honestly think that would help them not feel shame? I know someone who was raped. She doesn't like to talk about it. She doesn't want her life to be about being raped. Wearing a goddamn T shirt isn't going to help people who get raped feel any better.

All of us know someone who has been raped. I can just about guarantee it. Your friend who doesn't like to talk about it obviously talks about it more than most victims do.

And yes, talking about it helps. A lot. Phsychologists would agree. The message needs to go out that it's okay to talk about it. It's confronting the problem instead of hiding it.

I'm not saying the t-shirt would be the right thing for every rape victim to wear. But I doubt the t-shirt would make women feel worse about their own experiences, except as a reminder, which is not always a bad thing. And it definitely would get the message out to men that the days of women keeping quiet about rape are numbered.
post #64 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
It's taking the life of a child. Period. If you can't admit that, then there is nothing to discuss. With modern technology, we can see that fetuses yawn and stretch and such at like 10 weeks. It's a life. End of story.

No. The foetus is part of the woman's body.

Any movement of the foetus at that stage of pregnancy is a reflex. There is no cognitive ability. It is a potential child. But then again so is the sperm (they move too) you spill into a condom, tissue or the shower floor. And if it's about conception, you do realize that the majority of fertilized eggs are naturally flushed away. Usually because they have trouble attaching to the uterus, but quite often in early miscarriage. Wouldn't you say then, that God is killing babies?

To bring an unwanted child or a child who has little potential to have a good childhood or who will cause serious harm to the life and future of a mother who does not want the child is a crime to humanity.
post #65 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Actually, I'd argue that the opinion is "I don't like that shirt."

He very clearly stated that people shouldn't want to expose this kind of information. He's saying other people shouldn't wear this shirt because it's personal and private information they shouldn't share with others. I just take the opposite view, that he (or anyone else for that matter) doesn't want to see it but that has no bearing on what shirt someone else should or shouldn't wear.
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post #66 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Wearing a goddamn T shirt isn't going to help people who get raped feel any better.

How would you know what makes everyone feel happy or not? You're absolutely 100% wrong to believe you know that just as I feel that BRussell is wrong to believe that someone shouldn't want to advertise personal information about themselves.
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post #67 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
To say people should hide it is a little bit shameful is like telling a homosexual to tone down their sexuality and please dont wear that multicoloured badge because we don´t like to be reminded that your type exists,.

First off, I would never not support a women who chose to have an abotion, it is her choice.

That does not mean that I have to find the reasons for her choice to be meaningful and reasonable in an abstract sense.
For instance, if a woman said that she wanted to terminate the coming child because she fears it might be a Leo and Leo's tend to be self centered, then I would think that her head is on wrong and that she has put blatantly idiotic ideas before a real responcibility and a natural marvel
If a woman gets an abortion because she wants to go see a Neil Diamond Concert and throw panties without a elly then I would be angry at her self absorbed narcissistic trivial attitude towards life and denial of the responsibility that being pregnant implies.

When I say someone should be ashamed I mean in circumstances where they have opted to terminate pregnancy in favor of something, anything, about themselves and their life that is tantamount to saying 'I got an abortion because the child doesn't fit in the picture' . . . I didn't mean in cases of health or rape cases (though there imagination and an open attitude to the gifts of possibilities can be astounding as well)

I think that generally we have a profoundly sick society: we imagine ourselves to be these isolated atoms, disconnected egos that exist in a sovereign void barely touching one another only when we complete a cash transaction . . . I think that too much of our lives revolve around an image of ourselves, and that we adore that image and it is false and alienated . . . I also tend to think that too many abortions are the result of merely accepting that image as truth and not using the most important faculty of our humanity, the imagination, in order to try and tackle what should be seen as a very serious situation.

I think that we are a narcissistic culture and choosing to give in easily when confronted with such a delemma is egotistical and probably trivializes the reality.
I don't think people realize what they are doing generally . . . on a daily basis . . . and in cases of abortion I also think that many people don't understand the gravity of their actions . . . especially when 'convenience' trumpts imaginatively taking up the challenge to be truly human beyond one's egotistical little interests . . . i think people should feel ashamed when their imaginations fail them.

But I wouldn't legislate something like that.
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post #68 of 101
pfflam, while you're correct that some people might have an abortion because they want to throw panties at Neil Diamond, this T-Shirt is not a window into the motivation of a woman's choice. Some people here are perceiving it to be, when in fact it's just a T-Shirt. Adding any more significance to the shirt is, well, silly.
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post #69 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell

... A few years ago, my family had to take my mom off life support, because she was breathing only with the use of a machine, and she had a living will saying not to keep her on it. I'm sure it was the most difficult thing my dad ever had to do...

I'm sure it was. My family went through the same kind of hell. And? How do these experiences shed ANY light on the topic at hand? Your mother had a living will as did mine. At the very end she needed us to tell the doctors her wishes but she wasn't voiceless. As painful as it was, we were carrying out her wishes. That's probably what gave us the courage to make the decision. She'd made it for us.

Contrast that with what happens with an abortion. The putative mother has her say but the one with the most at stake - the human life that will be ended - is voiceless. It's just not the same thing.
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post #70 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
How would you know what makes everyone feel happy or not? You're absolutely 100% wrong to believe you know that just as I feel that BRussell is wrong to believe that someone shouldn't want to advertise personal information about themselves.

Because it's a stupid idea. That's why. Rape will not be made less horrible by wearing a t shirt. Jesus christ.
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post #71 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
No. The foetus is part of the woman's body.

Any movement of the foetus at that stage of pregnancy is a reflex. There is no cognitive ability. It is a potential child. But then again so is the sperm (they move too) you spill into a condom, tissue or the shower floor. And if it's about conception, you do realize that the majority of fertilized eggs are naturally flushed away. Usually because they have trouble attaching to the uterus, but quite often in early miscarriage. Wouldn't you say then, that God is killing babies?

To bring an unwanted child or a child who has little potential to have a good childhood or who will cause serious harm to the life and future of a mother who does not want the child is a crime to humanity.

It's a life. Say it with me: A life. Whether you support the legality of taking it or not is another issue. Look at some high res ultrasounds and tell me it's not a life.

BTW: I would not agree that the "majority" of fertilized eggs get flushed out. I'm not sure that's accurate.
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post #72 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
It's a life. Say it with me: A life. Whether you support the legality of taking it or not is another issue. Look at some high res ultrasounds and tell me it's not a life.

BTW: I would not agree that the "majority" of fertilized eggs get flushed out. I'm not sure that's accurate.

I'm kind of in agreement with you about the t-shirt part of this issue. It really doesn't help anything with this issue.

However SDW at what point does the fetus stop being just tissue and become self aware life?

Because if you're just counting life under that definition you'd better stop triming your nails ( or having surgery for cancer ).

Or are you one of those " potential " people? In which case you'd better not use a condom.

I think most people think the fetus becomes a human life when it becomes self aware or cognitive. That doesn't happen from the get go.
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post #73 of 101
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by zaphod_beeblebrox
I'm sure it was. My family went through the same kind of hell. And? How do these experiences shed ANY light on the topic at hand? Your mother had a living will as did mine. At the very end she needed us to tell the doctors her wishes but she wasn't voiceless. As painful as it was, we were carrying out her wishes. That's probably what gave us the courage to make the decision. She'd made it for us.

Contrast that with what happens with an abortion. The putative mother has her say but the one with the most at stake - the human life that will be ended - is voiceless. It's just not the same thing.

zaphod is back like a lighting bolt!

It's not the same thing, but it's an example of how one can support something that is personal and controversial and yet not want to publicize it. I'm not sure why you deleted all the context from my post, quoted it, and then challenged me on the missing context.
post #74 of 101
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
It's a life. Say it with me: A life. Whether you support the legality of taking it or not is another issue. Look at some high res ultrasounds and tell me it's not a life.

BTW: I would not agree that the "majority" of fertilized eggs get flushed out. I'm not sure that's accurate.

I've read that too, that about half of fertilized eggs are aborted. You can probably find some references in here.
post #75 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
To bring an unwanted child or a child who has little potential to have a good childhood or who will cause serious harm to the life and future of a mother who does not want the child is a crime to humanity.

This statement is so dumb and offensive i don't even know where to start...

(and for reference, i'd like to join the pro-choice, pro-life, liberal secular group thing )
It's Better To Be Hated For What You Are Than To Be Loved For What You Are Not
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It's Better To Be Hated For What You Are Than To Be Loved For What You Are Not
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post #76 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
zaphod is back like a lighting bolt!

It's not the same thing, but it's an example of how one can support something that is personal and controversial and yet not want to publicize it. I'm not sure why you deleted all the context from my post, quoted it, and then challenged me on the missing context.

There's no missing context. The decision to pull the plug on someone who has specifically requested they not be kept alive on a machine is not nearly so controversial as is abortion.
"Countless mothers will light candles and celebrate the tyrant's capture - mothers in all the cities of Iraq, in all the villages of Iran, in all the streets and quarters of Kuwait, everywhere the...
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"Countless mothers will light candles and celebrate the tyrant's capture - mothers in all the cities of Iraq, in all the villages of Iran, in all the streets and quarters of Kuwait, everywhere the...
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post #77 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Because it's a stupid idea. That's why. Rape will not be made less horrible by wearing a t shirt. Jesus christ.

I didn't say it would be made less horrible, I said you wouldn't know if wearing the shirt made someone feel better.

"Because it's a stupid idea."

That's the crux of the argument here. Some of you think it's stupid, but someone wearing the shirt probably doesn't care and shouldn't. I think it's stupid that someone wears a christian cross around their neck. Who cares if that's what I think?
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #78 of 101
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
I didn't say it would be made less horrible, I said you wouldn't know if wearing the shirt made someone feel better.

"Because it's a stupid idea."

That's the crux of the argument here. Some of you think it's stupid, but someone wearing the shirt probably doesn't care and shouldn't. I think it's stupid that someone wears a christian cross around their neck. Who cares if that's what I think?

It still sounds to me like you're basically saying that it's wrong to have a negative opinion about someone else's behavior.

[edit] I was reading the posts again, and you said that you thought I was trying to change someone else's behavior, which goes beyond a simply opinion. Actually I don't think I ever said anything like that, I just said I thought it was tasteless.

But let's take it further - what if I did say to someone "that's a tasteless shirt and you shouldn't wear it." Would that be wrong? We try to change people's behavior all the time. I might ask someone to vote for a candidate, or to stop making that loud noise. So what?

Obviously, I'm talking about doing it within reason - I don't mean stalking the person or pounding on their door 24 hrs. per day. But within general guidelines of respectful behavior, what's wrong with trying to change people's behavior?

Again, what I'm getting at is the separation between laws and private behavior. Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's OK. Rather than asking the gov't to change people behavior, don't we normally keep the gov't out of it, and try to change behavior privately?
post #79 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
It still sounds to me like you're basically saying that it's wrong to have a negative opinion about someone else's behavior.

Sonofabitch!

Just wrong a long post and closed the window.

Mutherfucker!

Anyway, I'll make this brief. It's not wrong to hold any opinion, but opinions can be factually incorrect. SDW claims 'it's stupid' to wear the shirt. I claim his opinion is factually incorrect.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #80 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Sonofabitch!

Just wrong a long post and closed the window.

Mutherfucker!

Anyway, I'll make this brief. It's not wrong to hold any opinion, but opinions can be factually incorrect. SDW claims 'it's stupid' to wear the shirt. I claim his opinion is factually incorrect.

I think that he is correct . . . and I think there are tests, scientific tests, that can measure the stupidity within the shirt itself

To continue with my philophastry (and I dare you to follow me): I think that we, as a culture, tend to mistake the idea that something 'is' something. Bill Clinton acually said a profound thing when he questioned the idea that the meaning of 'is' is so easy to understand. I think that we imagine that something is what it is at present . . . which ends up being what we think that it is. We don't think of things in terms of potentialities and possibilities: we are possessive and egotistical: we imagine that we have a fixed identity rather than being a part of a fluid process, (rather than becoming) . . . a process that is past and future in the form of actualities, and possibilities (actual possibles & possible actualities ) converging to give the illusion of a solid presence: the presence of the present time. We cling to this idea that this present is some fixed and known quantity, that we 'are' someone, and that this someone -who we picture ourselves to be- fits in a world that is 'pictured' as a fixed form, -a quantity, an image withing a sort of cognitive frame of intelligabiltiy: we fix the world in a picture and put our illusionary fixed ego-image into this picture -it all 'makes sense'.

But this is a process of reducing the actual possibilities and potentialities that are part of the becoming of the world - to imagine that we are a fixed entity and that our plans -that are based on those notions- are sensible, is to value the world in a certain manner. But since the world image and the self-image that is based on such false fixed ideas is a radical reduction of the becoming that is the world, then that image is a form of devaluing the plentitude of becoming.
In other words, when something 'is' something it has been reduced fundamentally . . . and when a cultural world view tends to see things in terms of 'is' and what soemthng is being then it devalues the world: it is the lack of imagination at the core of our culture . . . to say that something is what it is belittles.

How does this apply to abortion: we assume that it 'is' a life, or it 'is' not (which is still a kind of reduction) but the problem is in the tendency to not see what is happening with a pregnancy as the nascence of potentiality itself: the growth of possibilities: a perfect symbol for the imagination itself.

Anyway, take what you will from that, but remember, I am still pro-choice and many people who I love and respect have had abortions.

now about that T-shirt: that T-shirt is an attempt at modifying other people. Pretend that it is not, but it sure isn't soley for the wearer's solitary pleasure: it is for other people . . . . it wouldn't make sense for them to only wear it while sleeping . . . so if they can wear it and tell me, proudly, that they had an abortion, then I can tell them that I think that their T-shirt is tastless.
I can tell them that they shouldn't be proud of it; that wearing that Tshirt is like smearing shiit on your face and saying proudly 'I smeared shiit on my face, so there'
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
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"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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