or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › "I had an abortion" t-shirts for sale!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

"I had an abortion" t-shirts for sale! - Page 3

post #81 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
now about that T-shirt: that T-shirt is an attempt at modifying other people. Pretend that it is not, but it sure isn't soley for the wearer's solitary pleasure: it is for other people . . . . it wouldn't make sense for them to only wear it while sleeping . . . so if they can wear it and tell me, proudly, that they had an abortion, then I can tell them that I think that their T-shirt is tastless.
I can tell them that they shouldn't be proud of it; that wearing that Tshirt is like smearing shiit on your face and saying proudly 'I smeared shiit on my face, so there'

I couldn't disagree more. It's just as much a way to make the shirt wearer 'fit in' as it is anything else. If I've had an abortion, I shouldn't be ashamed. If you know it, I shouldn't be ashamed. I am still myself, and nothing you say or think can change it, for better or worse.

I think the problem here is that some of those here that are offended are egotistical. They can't see any potential benefit because they can't turn the tables and see themselves in a situation where they might need or want to wear that shirt.

Also, self-righteousness blinds some people here from understanding that the statement being made on the shirt is not necessarily based in pride, but possibly even in humility. You should reward humility, even condone it, but not ostracize it.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
post #82 of 101
Maybe some of 'us here' have been in that situation and find nothing to be proud of.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #83 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Maybe some of 'us here' have been in that situation and find nothing to be proud of.

Hence the line about humility....
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
post #84 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Hence the line about humility....

That is not what the Tshirt is obviously designed to do. It is supposed to be about 'stopping shame' . . . . 'how dare our moralistic righteous culture make me feel bad for having an abortion' . . .that is absolutely 180 degrees from humility, and to pretend that that Tshirt is anything else is lying to yourself.

I can't help but think of all hte people who have undergone such experiences with pain and extreme ambivalence which vacillates from self-loathing only to conviction but never to pride, feeling very very offput and even slapped by such a cavaleir and trivial attitude to something so personal and life changing.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #85 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
That is not what the Tshirt is obviously designed to do.

I don't care what the t-shirt was designed to do in our opinions, it's why the person wears it that matters.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
post #86 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
I don't care what the t-shirt was designed to do in our opinions, it's why the person wears it that matters.

So you're saying that a person wears this Tshirt, despite the fact that it is obviously about being proud of having an abortion, (or merely seeming proud), that it is like wearing a sign glorifying the fact because such a stance is contrary to idiotic ideas about pro-lifers (and some maybe not so idiotic ideas) you're saying that they wear it to feel secure or satisfied, to overcome possible bad feelings about their decision? They wear it to feel, in other words, proud of their decision?!

Everytime you put on a shirt with some sort of writing on it you are practically signing up for a uniformed position . . . especially now with the hipster trend of seemingly meaningless T-shirts from some unheard of camp in the 70s etc. You wear these things as a social tool, as a social relation, where you are opening up a 'discussion' by pre-emptively defining your position: ie: "I am into Heavy metal, don't you see my Pantera T-shirt?! and BTW don't mess with me."
If that is the case, -and it it is hardly debatable that clothes with signs on them serve that purpose- then that T-shirt broadcasts one thing -and anybody trying to wear it simply to feel better isn't helping themselves . . .
I gaurantee that every second that a person wears that T-shirt with other people around they are aware, on some level, of the pugilistic and purposely confrontational tone that the T-shirt carries, and, that they are self-concious about it. That kind of constant awareness can not be helping anybody feel good about their abortion. I can imagine it only as a burr under the skin, excacerbating the difficulty. . . . and for what . . some political positioning and self identifying?!

and IMO, if you 'feel good' about your abortion then you are a trivial, misguided, anemic soul that has never scratched even the surface of the question of their own being in the world.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #87 of 101
My position is that the shirt is not by default 'proud' as you claim it to be. No offense, but you have to be narrow minded to limit your understanding in this way. You can't possibly know what the shirt means outside of the basic fact. Even that could be a lie. I'm considering the shirt and I'm male. If I'm wearing it, am I proud? That doesn't make sense. Should only females be allowed to wear it then? That makes even less sense.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
post #88 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
My position is that the shirt is not by default 'proud' as you claim it to be. No offense, but you have to be narrow minded to limit your understanding in this way. You can't possibly know what the shirt means outside of the basic fact. Even that could be a lie. I'm considering the shirt and I'm male. If I'm wearing it, am I proud? That doesn't make sense. Should only females be allowed to wear it then? That makes even less sense.

You'd be wearing it in some sort of political positioning, or 'statement' making, and to me that is trite. it is willfully confrontational without regards to others who may not be so 'happy' about their decisions, happy enough for emblems, it trivializes the reality of the issue and also partakes of all of the above identity issues that I outlined in other posts with regard to egotism, fixed identity, etc.

Sure there are other possible reasons to wear it, all the ones that I can think of are ugly and insensitive: perhaps you would be a guy who thrives off of 'shocking' people and being rude? perhaps it would be out of "'solidarity' with those who have been forced to feel ashamed by our moralizing death-culture, duude!" who knows what other reasons . . . all I can think, in my 'limited understanding' is that it will come across as a slap in the face of 95 out of a hundred people who have thought or felt seriously through this situation: the other percentage, I would venture to say, are not thinking deeply enough about it to care either way . . . . or, probably like many here who would rather make some sort of psuedo-political position rhetorical mumbo jumbo and claim the shirt as victory for 'our-side', they care more about an ideology than the realities: hurt men and women who have to make horrible painful decisions and potentialities that are quashed, often due to a lack of imagination, and often out of real needs. Either way it is a tragedy not something to 'celebrate'.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #89 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
You'd be wearing it in some sort of political positioning, or 'statement' making, and to me that is trite. it is willfully confrontational without regards to others who may not be so 'happy' about their decisions, happy enough for emblems, it trivializes the reality of the issue and also partakes of all of the above identity issues that I outlined in other posts with regard to egotism, fixed identity, etc.

Sure there are other possible reasons to wear it, all the ones that I can think of are ugly and insensitive: perhaps you would be a guy who thrives off of 'shocking' people and being rude? perhaps it would be out of "'solidarity' with those who have been forced to feel ashamed by our moralizing death-culture, duude!" who knows what other reasons . . . all I can think, in my 'limited understanding' is that it will come across as a slap in the face of 95 out of a hundred people who have thought or felt seriously through this situation: the other percentage, I would venture to say, are not thinking deeply enough about it to care either way . . . . or, probably like many here who would rather make some sort of psuedo-political position rhetorical mumbo jumbo and claim the shirt as victory for 'our-side', they care more about an ideology than the realities: hurt men and women who have to make horrible painful decisions and potentialities that are quashed, often due to a lack of imagination, and often out of real needs. Either way it is a tragedy not something to 'celebrate'.

You don't understand. By telling people all the time (as you're doing now) how "horrible" and "tragic" and "shameful" is is to have had an aborion, you're making those who are trying to deal with it much less comfortable, and much more ashamed than they were to begin with. It's important to let people know that if they had an abortion than "that's all right". They should not feel shame. They should learn from their mistake and move on with their life. There's no room in someone's heart for the kind of guilt you're perpetuating. Let them forgive themselves. Let them know that life moves on. This is the feeling I get from the t-shirt.
post #90 of 101
Spent the last few days working 10 hour shifts. I'll try to get to some of the other posts today or tomorrow. Pfflam, maybe you'd clear things up for me if you could address the literature supplied on the order page.
post #91 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
You'd be wearing it in some sort of political positioning, or 'statement' making, and to me that is trite.

Quote:
Planned Parenthood's purpose in selling this T-shirt was to remind everyone that abortion policy affects real people and that guaranteeing safe and legal abortion is critical to our rights and our health. The T-shirt helps to subvert the insidious silence that surrounds abortion and the shame that anti-choice extremists try to create around these personal choices and women who make them.

Planned Parenthood extends a special thanks to Jennifer Baumgardner...for bringing such an important conversation out of the shadows and into the forefront of social debate.

Doesn't sound trite to me.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
post #92 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Doesn't sound trite to me.

Sounds glib and 'well intentioned' . . . not like a T-shirt that says 'I got an abortion' -clever rationalizations from too much political ideology for something that comes across as rude and insensitive
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #93 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Again, many women have positive experiences with abortion. For a little more literature on that note, read the following article in The Nation: We're Not Sorry, Charlie. Frankly, I don't blame them.

Actually this site could generate even more scorn for abortion. Do you think the majority of even pro-choice people think that having a three day procedure when you are over five months along is the same as getting a wart burned off?

Sassy

The other thing is that site might be used to undermine support for contraceptive effectiveness since a large number of testimonials on there swear they were "not only on the pill but used a condom everytime" as well.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #94 of 101
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
You don't understand. By telling people all the time (as you're doing now) how "horrible" and "tragic" and "shameful" is is to have had an aborion, you're making those who are trying to deal with it much less comfortable, and much more ashamed than they were to begin with. It's important to let people know that if they had an abortion than "that's all right". They should not feel shame. They should learn from their mistake and move on with their life. There's no room in someone's heart for the kind of guilt you're perpetuating. Let them forgive themselves. Let them know that life moves on. This is the feeling I get from the t-shirt.

I'm not perpetuating guilt, what I am doing here is responding to a sloganization of a complex and profound reality.

I wouldn't say the things I am saying beyond this thread, I WOULDN'T wear my thoughts as a slogan on a T-shirt . . . so, participate in this thread, and if you had an abortion, then read what I am saying and recognize that I understand the difficult and painful feelings of ambivalence that accompany the decision to abort . . . I recognize them and I don't think that they should go away, and I don't think that 'it is all alright' . . . perhaps we should hold onto the pain and remember the decision with a depth of feeling that is worthy of the magnitude of the decision . . .
not covering it over with a glib slick sloganism that is then justified by politically driven rhetoric.

Perhaps 'shameful' is not completely the right word . . . perhaps I should say that I would be disappointed if a person simply let go of the powerful difficulty of feelings that would, and IMO should, arise due to such a decision , if they simply said 'oh well. that's over-with . . . just another thing that was dealt with'. . . when it becomes something that is easy then I question your humanity . . All I want is for people to respect the issue with some depth not simply erase it as one would an inconvenience

This T-shirt is perfectly symbolic of our age: the reduction of all experience into a slogan, a sound-byte . . . gloss over difficulty with a bumper-sticker and a T-shirt and make it 'all go away'
and then, when asked to explain it, fill the void -left by the quick reduction- with a buncha catch term politicizing ideological-positioning mumbo jumbo . . .
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #95 of 101
Again, can you specifically address the literature that accompanies the t-shirt on the order page? We realize your distaste for "catch term politicizing ideological-positioning mumbo jumbo" and "psuedo-political position rhetorical mumbo jumbo." I don't like the limited ways we seem to express ourselves either-- probably the result of a lack of imagination like you said. But I'd really like to read your thoughts on how the accompanying literature is an example of that (for one thing).
post #96 of 101
Why do abortion supporters use a euphemism to describe their stance on abortion? Pro-choice seems to be a phrase that would be more fitting with consumerism than to describe a position towards abortion.
________________________
market samurai ~ marketsamurai ~ marketsamurai.com
post #97 of 101
I'd like to wear one of them

I'm a guy so I'm gonna get all sort of weird/confused looks

iPod nano 5th Gen 8GB Orange, iPad 3rd Gen WiFi 32GB White
MacBook Pro 15" Core i7 2.66GHz 8GB RAM 120GB Intel 320M
Mac mini Core 2 Duo 2.4GHz 8GB RAM, iPhone 5 32GB Black

Reply

iPod nano 5th Gen 8GB Orange, iPad 3rd Gen WiFi 32GB White
MacBook Pro 15" Core i7 2.66GHz 8GB RAM 120GB Intel 320M
Mac mini Core 2 Duo 2.4GHz 8GB RAM, iPhone 5 32GB Black

Reply
post #98 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by sylvian View Post

Why do abortion supporters use a euphemism to describe their stance on abortion?
Pro-choice seems to be a phrase that would be more fitting with consumerism than to describe a position towards abortion.

You've a fair comment regarding those people who only support abortion (of which I know none), but what term would you have those that supported a persons right to choose their action, other than 'Pro-choice'. Do you also have a problem with 'Pro-life' groups that aren't vegetarian?
post #99 of 101
gonna get me an abortion shirt/
gonna wear it roun' the town
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #100 of 101
This is why threads should autolock after being untouched for X months.
post #101 of 101
Man, I miss BRussell. One of the few logical unemotional political voices on this forum. I wish they would return.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › "I had an abortion" t-shirts for sale!