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TS reports on new imac specs - Page 10

post #361 of 698
One of the biggest reasons that the iMac2 and likely the iMac3 did not and won't do as well as the original is the display.
People bought the iMac1 because it was a decent price even if the monitor were to die out in a year's time. Today's iMac2 on the other hand has monitors attached that are either modestly expensive all the way to 'good lord I could buy another comp for that'.

If Apple were to come up w/ a design that allowed them to market the iMac3 w/ all 15" LCD's that could be upgraded to 17" or 20" (and in cases where an LCD died, replaced) then they'd be better able to hit price points that don't look insane. This would get people to look who otherwise wouldn't. If they don't look in the first place they'll never buy it.
post #362 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by WelshDog
FYI Doom 3 supports all nvida FX chipsets according to id's website. Yes I know probably not at 42fps, but hey, turn down yer video settings.

They don't go any lower. Sub 30 fps really isn't acceptable as you start seeing choppiness. The conclusion to that article pretty flatly states the nvidia 5200 chipset isn't acceptable even on the lowest settings for Doom 3.
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post #363 of 698
Plus the cpu pushing those frames was a 3.2 P4. a 1.6 or 1.8 G5 will not push frames as fast as that P4. bottom line is FX5200 will play it like a slide show. Fx5200 is ok for mailing grandma,reading the net and is cheap as can be for Apple. it is a sad stae of affairs at Apple. they seem to think everyone is a photoshop geek with no need for decent video card.\ I suggest everyone send Apple a email complaining about their use of the cheapist chip made. I did, its hurting their sales and they dont seem to get this.
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post #364 of 698
See the main page to put to rest some of the Apple LCD-quality myths.

"Other people buy the panels we reject." HA!

Looks like Apple will accept as many as 8 faulty pixels on iMac size displays, and as many as 15 (FIFTEEN!) on a 23"

Again, affordable digital/analogue 3rd party displays are of excellent quality. Formac guarantees no more than two faulty pixels, and I have personally seen DELL replace a display with as few as ONE!

No one can argue that Apple purchases more costly components, that line of apology should be discarded outright. The overwhelming evidence is that they purchase the same stuff as everybody else.
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post #365 of 698
True, Jobs has stated many falsehoods in the past few years and this is another it seems.
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post #366 of 698
Aurora lay off the melodrama please. The issue isn't about the 5200fx sucking it's about the inability to upgrade it that has people worried. PCs today are tiered generally with shared memory integrated systems at the low end and then the 5200 or 5500fx cards at the midrange space where the iMac competes. The iMacs 5200 is competitive with their offerings albeit shy by 64MB in my opionion.

Please don't write Apple. Hey you're probably a cool guy in person but you tend to be a little overly excitable. I shudder to think what you're saying.

Quote:
See the main page to put to rest some of the Apple LCD-quality myths.

Matsu come on. That article is about guidelines and not quality. You're reaching.....far.

Quote:
The overwhelming evidence is that they purchase the same stuff as everybody else.

Then explain how they look better. The iMac G4 LCD to these old eyes looked better than most of the displays coming with PC. You're trying to build an arguement for your weak thesis that Apple uses the same old panels as everyone but I remain wholly unconvinced.

Despite the fact that Apple requires more faulty pixels before they replace the LCD I can't remember the last time I heard someone actually use this feature. In fact the new Cinema LCDs have been shipping and I haven't heard a report from anyone with more than 2 and certainly not 8.
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post #367 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Aurora lay off the melodrama please. The issue isn't about the 5200fx sucking it's about the inability to upgrade it that has people worried. PCs today are tiered generally with shared memory integrated systems at the low end and then the 5200 or 5500fx cards at the midrange space where the iMac competes. The iMacs 5200 is competitive with their offerings albeit shy by 64MB in my opionion.

Please don't write Apple. Hey you're probably a cool guy in person but you tend to be a little overly excitable. I shudder to think what you're saying.



Matsu come on. That article is about guidelines and not quality. You're reaching.....far.



Then explain how they look better. The iMac G4 LCD to these old eyes looked better than most of the displays coming with PC. You're trying to build an arguement for your weak thesis that Apple uses the same old panels as everyone but I remain wholly unconvinced.

Despite the fact that Apple requires more faulty pixels before they replace the LCD I can't remember the last time I heard someone actually use this feature. In fact the new Cinema LCDs have been shipping and I haven't heard a report from anyone with more than 2 and certainly not 8.

I've noticed with Dell at least that they offer multiple 17" LCD options with their machines (in addition to all the CRTs). one is relatively inexpensive and one is quite a bit pricier. I'm certain the garden variety LCDs the other makers offer at their bargain prices are *not* the same quality as the ones Apple ships. The higher priced option is probably equal but then it ends up being 150 - 200 dollars more.
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post #368 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by Matsu
Just fvcking with you, haha!

What I saw were the institutional prices on eMacs, and the a friend's screen grab of the iMac delay page in the Apple store, whcih had already been posted on AI. Doesn't mean I wasn't shown, just means it isn't as interesting as I tried to make it sound.

The only inside info I can scoop for ya relate to edu and urban planning. I can tell you where some Canadian Apple STores will land -- but most people know that already, and I can tell you if/when/how much the "real" edu dicounts are -- not what Apple posts on their site.

just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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post #369 of 698
Quote:
I've noticed with Dell at least that they offer multiple 17" LCD options with their machines (in addition to all the CRTs). one is relatively inexpensive and one is quite a bit pricier. I'm certain the garden variety LCDs the other makers offer at their bargain prices are *not* the same quality as the ones Apple ships. The higher priced option is probably equal but then it ends up being 150 - 200 dollars more.

I've noticed this as well and I always choose the higher quality option when comparing Dell against Apples. The iMac LCD quality is gorgeous, Bright and sharp, it is definitely top notch.

If Apple added upgradable graphics(yes I'm dreamin) then I think many of the fears would be muted somewhat. Funny though ...I can't remember a time when I've seen so many "budget" geeks. $1299 expensive for a computer? I believe the US median income is over 30K. You have a dual income family and brings in 60k or more. $1299 is not a big deal. Again many people will pay Time Warner, Comcast or Optima Online much more than that.

My computer has earned me money or at the least saved me money. My cable bill has never paid any dividends. It's money gone.

I'm buying the next revision of the iMac and I don't care how "slow" people think it is. I bet it earns me enough money over its lifespan to earn at least half of its cost back.
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post #370 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
I've noticed this as well and I always choose the higher quality option when comparing Dell against Apples. The iMac LCD quality is gorgeous, Bright and sharp, it is definitely top notch.

If Apple added upgradable graphics(yes I'm dreamin) then I think many of the fears would be muted somewhat. Funny though ...I can't remember a time when I've seen so many "budget" geeks. $1299 expensive for a computer? I believe the US median income is over 30K. You have a dual income family and brings in 60k or more. $1299 is not a big deal. Again many people will pay Time Warner, Comcast or Optima Online much more than that.

please speak for yourself. for a family of 4 where 2 children are soon to be in colleges that cost upwards of 40,000 the median income means nothing.

i don't think you'll find any shortage of single apartment dwelling 20 somethings in Apple Stores. But I don't see many families.

And who exactly do you think uses these boards? The majority here are teens, children, college students or just out of college. 1300 is a big expense, especially when similar offerings can be had for less.

Of course there always seem to be the few here who have no spending limits, and get whatever they want or are in the industry and can justify spending 3000 on a powermac and then turn around and say everyone who wants to play a game should just suck it up and pay the same.
post #371 of 698
Concerning LCD quality , my father compared the quality of the screen of my powerbook 17 inch with his Dell inspiron 8200 P4 2,4 ghz. He came to the conclusion, that the one of the powerbook was better, and that it was unfortunate, that he did not went for the high quality screen option that dell offered.

Apple computers have good componements undoubtely, but it do not mean, that it make them 100 % proof. Failures occur even with IBM, but when you look at the quality of construction, you know what you pay for.
post #372 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
1300 is a big expense, especially when similar offerings can be had for less.

Really? You can get a system that has the same usability, stability, software packages that integrate well, and overall lack of fear of viruses, worms, and other nasty things, for less?

Point me to it, man.

FWIW, *I* certainly don't know of another system that provides the same level of security, usability, and breadth of integrating technologies. For me, the computer is a tool to do work, and if someone can point me to a serious contender to the Mac, for less, I'll jump on it. I just don't see one. Anywhere.

Now, if *all* you're looking at is the hardware specs... well... I have work to do.
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post #373 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
Really? You can get a system that has the same usability, stability, software packages that integrate well, and overall lack of fear of viruses, worms, and other nasty things, for less?

Point me to it, man.

FWIW, *I* certainly don't know of another system that provides the same level of security, usability, and breadth of integrating technologies. For me, the computer is a tool to do work, and if someone can point me to a serious contender to the Mac, for less, I'll jump on it. I just don't see one. Anywhere.

Now, if *all* you're looking at is the hardware specs... well... I have work to do.

give me a fucking break. everywhere on this forum you've shown to be a well reasoned poster but in this thread you've just been a prick.

if i didn't recognize those advantages, the advantages of a mac, i wouldn't be a mac user. you're wasting your time preaching to the choir yet you keep doing it.

hmurchison said 1300 was cheap and "not a big deal" i was disputing that. 1300 is a big deal. you want to pick on one phrase in a post and ignore all the rest which I can only assume you can't dispute than fine.

You can get similar offerings for less. You can get a PC with a DVD burner for less. You can get a PC that will last longer than that iMac for less. No, things are as "secure, integrated, or have the same level of usability" yet 95% of the population uses them and doesn't use the solution that is all those things according to you.

You look at everything from a very bias point of view.
post #374 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
please speak for yourself. for a family of 4 where 2 children are soon to be in colleges that cost upwards of 40,000 the median income means nothing.

...

And who exactly do you think uses these boards? The majority here are teens, children, college students or just out of college. 1300 is a big expense, especially when similar offerings can be had for less.

....

Well said.
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
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post #375 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
hmurchison said 1300 was cheap and "not a big deal" i was disputing that. 1300 is a big deal. you want to pick on one phrase in a post and ignore all the rest which I can only assume you can't dispute than fine.

That's why God invented credit cards.
post #376 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
give me a fucking break. everywhere on this forum you've shown to be a well reasoned poster but in this thread you've just been a prick.

Yeah, whatever.

Quote:
if i didn't recognize those advantages, the advantages of a mac, i wouldn't be a mac user. you're wasting your time preaching to the choir yet you keep doing it.

Because the choir keeps veering off into this bizarre idea that 'a comparable machine' can be had for a lot less. The machine is more than the hardware. You *know* this... and yet you, and a lot of people in here, are going to keep making ridiculous statements about 'comparable' machines. Yeah, you *bet* I can go get comparable *hardware* for less. No dispute there. But the very advantages that make you a Mac user are the ones you're paying for, and you'd stop and think about it for a minute, you'd realize how silly the 'comparable machine for less' stance really is.

Quote:
hmurchison said 1300 was cheap and "not a big deal" i was disputing that. 1300 is a big deal. you want to pick on one phrase in a post and ignore all the rest which I can only assume you can't dispute than fine.

Ah, but that one phrase is the crux of your argument, isn't it?

If one could *not* find comparable *hardware* for less, then you wouldn't be even attempting the position. But the hardware *can* be had for less... it's just the most important bits that would be missing. There's where the argument breaks down. Price only matters in a relative manner... $1300 would be dirt cheap 10 years ago, but *today's* market, with *today's* machines make that look pricey, from a strictly hardware POV. Once you start considering the entire machine, which is, after all, what one buys, then the arguments starts to break down.

'A comparable machine' cannot be found for a lot less, once the entirety of hardware, OS, security, stability, apps, technologies and usability is taken into consideration. It's just that simple. I actually care much less about the platform brand than what it can do for me. If you can, seriously, point me to an alternative, I'll take a look. Nothing I've seen comes close.

As to $1300 (or any amount) being pricey, or not, for a given family and their financial situation, that's up to the family to decide. I'm certainly not going to make any blankets statements regarding the absolute value of a monetary amount to a particular situation. For *me* $1300 is over a month's wages, so yeah, it's pricey as hell. For others, not so much. *shrug*

Quote:
You can get similar offerings for less. You can get a PC with a DVD burner for less. You can get a PC that will last longer than that iMac for less. No, things are as "secure, integrated, or have the same level of usability" yet 95% of the population uses them and doesn't use the solution that is all those things according to you.

You look at everything from a very bias point of view.

You're right, I do. I look at the entire package for what it does for me, how it lets me work, and what I *don't* have to do to keep it running. You're absolutely right that that's a minority view... it's a more holistic and informed view than the majority of the population who are going to make ignorant choices based on what is shoved down their throat as 'necessary' by the specwhores of the world.

Simply put, I'll take a slower but more enabling machine any day. In the end, that's all that matters... what it can do for me. Not the specs in a vacuum.
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post #377 of 698
Applenut has said it thanks, it now appears that at quakecon Carmack has stated there isnt going to be a mac version of doom3 for awhile. why? because the only thing Apple has to run the thing is probably a Powermac. take all the powermac users then take the ones that game and that makes about a hundred of us that can buy his game Doom3. There just isnt many macs that can run this thing. it wont run on any G4 iMac. thinking about cancelling my 2.5 thats late and getting alienware. not only will i save a grand but ill be able to play Doom3 this year. what does this have to do with imac? poor specs,slow cpu's and bottom videoChips dont sell computers and id knows this. why port to a platform that cant run what you are selling? This just pisses me off. i want to support Mac and Mac software but Apple isnt paying attention.
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post #378 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
Applenut has said it thanks, it now appears that at quakecon Carmack has stated there isnt going to be a mac version of doom3 for awhile. why? because the only thing Apple has to run the thing is probably a Powermac. take all the powermac users then take the ones that game and that makes about a hundred of us that can buy his game Doom3. There just isnt many macs that can run this thing. it wont run on any G4 iMac. thinking about cancelling my 2.5 thats late and getting alienware. not only will i save a grand but ill be able to play Doom3 this year. what does this have to do with imac? poor specs,slow cpu's and bottom videoChips dont sell computers and id knows this. why port to a platform that cant run what you are selling? This just pisses me off. i want to support Mac and Mac software but Apple isnt paying attention.

It's not a secret, that the mac is not the perfect gaming machine. Even if the hardware was more performant and sell at a lesser price than the PC counterpart, it will still be behind them.
Why, because games are created for the biggest market : the PC one. When some game succeed, they are transposed for the mac to gain some more bucks.

If you are really interested by the perfect gaming machine, wait for the next PS3 or the next Xbox : lesser prices and stunning gaming performances.
post #379 of 698
Quote:
please speak for yourself. for a family of 4 where 2 children are soon to be in colleges that cost upwards of 40,000 the median income means nothing.

Do you have a child? Didn't think so. You're are inexperienced in this area and frankly don't know what you're talking about. After the birth of my son two years ago my tax returns went from $900 childless to $1700. That's for one child. I'm sorry Applenut you don't what you're talking about here.

Quote:
i don't think you'll find any shortage of single apartment dwelling 20 somethings in Apple Stores.

Or in the Abacrombie & Fitch stores. Younger people has less bills older people have better tax breaks. You'll find out later...live a little.

Quote:
That's why God invented credit cards.

Truer words have never been spoken Outsider. This is a credit card nation.

Quote:
thinking about cancelling my 2.5 thats late and getting alienware. not only will i save a grand but ill be able to play Doom3 this year. what

Please do it. You'll be a credit to those forward thinking souls we call Peecee users. You'd really enjoy that "wicked fast" Alienware box so much more than the slovenly sluggish Powermac G5

I stand by my statement. A family of 4 with two working fulltime adults can afford a $1299 if they make near the median income and aren't dumb enough to blow their money on 60" Big Screens or SUVs or giving Comcast/Time Warner $80 bucks a month. If families cannot afford $1300 every 3 years for a computer there is finacial mismanagement going on generally.

What many on these boards are trying to do is devalue the computer. To turn it into a "commodity of conformity' just a like a TV. You guys desperately want to convince yourselve that Apple is just overcharging and their value is out of whack. I think the truth is closer to this.

"I want Apple to charge less for Macs so I don't have to worry about buying $5 drinks at the local pub. So I don't have to worry about spending $60 on a sweater at the Mall so I don't have to worry about spending $2000 on those rims for my car..etc etc etc"

No the iMac isn't expensive..but "your" other habits are and you are looking to shave money wherever you can to live your lifestyle. It's the American way..the vast majority of us are on budets.
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post #380 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Do you have a child? Didn't think so. You're are inexperienced in this area and frankly don't know what you're talking about. After the birth of my son two years ago my tax returns went from $900 childless to $1700. That's for one child. I'm sorry Applenut you don't what you're talking about here.

tax returns? you don't know what you're talking about.

no, im in a family of 4....where both parents work their ass off with multiple jobs to pay a mortgage, bills, expenses and tuitions.

you're an ignorant waste of life if you're using the logic of a 1700 dollar tax return to tell me i don't know what I'm talking about.
post #381 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Do you have a child? Didn't think so. You're are inexperienced in this area and frankly don't know what you're talking about. After the birth of my son two years ago my tax returns went from $900 childless to $1700. That's for one child. I'm sorry Applenut you don't what you're talking about here.

how about you come back and make that same statement in 16 years.

or when you have child #2
post #382 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison

I stand by my statement. A family of 4 with two working fulltime adults can afford a $1299 if they make near the median income and aren't dumb enough to blow their money on 60" Big Screens or SUVs or giving Comcast/Time Warner $80 bucks a month. If families cannot afford $1300 every 3 years for a computer there is finacial mismanagement going on generally.

What many on these boards are trying to do is devalue the computer. To turn it into a "commodity of conformity' just a like a TV. You guys desperately want to convince yourselve that Apple is just overcharging and their value is out of whack. I think the truth is closer to this.

"I want Apple to charge less for Macs so I don't have to worry about buying $5 drinks at the local pub. So I don't have to worry about spending $60 on a sweater at the Mall so I don't have to worry about spending $2000 on those rims for my car..etc etc etc"

No the iMac isn't expensive..but "your" other habits are and you are looking to shave money wherever you can to live your lifestyle. It's the American way..the vast majority of us are on budets.

how about you pay to replace my 25 inch tv with a 60 inch one, you pay for premium cable to replace my 29.99 a month satelite and you pay for the 60 dollar sweatshirt id never buy and 2000 for the rims that i could give a shit less about.

you have one seriously fucked up view.
post #383 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
Yeah, whatever.



Because the choir keeps veering off into this bizarre idea that 'a comparable machine' can be had for a lot less. The machine is more than the hardware. You *know* this... and yet you, and a lot of people in here, are going to keep making ridiculous statements about 'comparable' machines. Yeah, you *bet* I can go get comparable *hardware* for less. No dispute there. But the very advantages that make you a Mac user are the ones you're paying for, and you'd stop and think about it for a minute, you'd realize how silly the 'comparable machine for less' stance really is.



Ah, but that one phrase is the crux of your argument, isn't it?

If one could *not* find comparable *hardware* for less, then you wouldn't be even attempting the position. But the hardware *can* be had for less... it's just the most important bits that would be missing. There's where the argument breaks down. Price only matters in a relative manner... $1300 would be dirt cheap 10 years ago, but *today's* market, with *today's* machines make that look pricey, from a strictly hardware POV. Once you start considering the entire machine, which is, after all, what one buys, then the arguments starts to break down.

'A comparable machine' cannot be found for a lot less, once the entirety of hardware, OS, security, stability, apps, technologies and usability is taken into consideration. It's just that simple. I actually care much less about the platform brand than what it can do for me. If you can, seriously, point me to an alternative, I'll take a look. Nothing I've seen comes close.

As to $1300 (or any amount) being pricey, or not, for a given family and their financial situation, that's up to the family to decide. I'm certainly not going to make any blankets statements regarding the absolute value of a monetary amount to a particular situation. For *me* $1300 is over a month's wages, so yeah, it's pricey as hell. For others, not so much. *shrug*



You're right, I do. I look at the entire package for what it does for me, how it lets me work, and what I *don't* have to do to keep it running. You're absolutely right that that's a minority view... it's a more holistic and informed view than the majority of the population who are going to make ignorant choices based on what is shoved down their throat as 'necessary' by the specwhores of the world.

Simply put, I'll take a slower but more enabling machine any day. In the end, that's all that matters... what it can do for me. Not the specs in a vacuum.

yea, whatever? you are

the choir aint veering off anywhere. you're veering off into some idealogical lala land that really doesn't matter to anything here and makes you come across as holier than thou.

apple can compete on price in other products, there is no reason they can't hear. there is no reason they can't provide options. there is no reason they can't release a fully build to order and customizable consumer machine like every other computer manufacter can do. there is no reason apple needs to keep trying to repackage products that don't meet the needs and desires of its customers in hopes that eventually they'll get something right.

seems most people seem to do fine with the horrible experience of windows and its accompanying software and seem to manage burning cds, dvds, organizing photos and music just fine with their crappy software. does the better experience of the mac offer enough incentive to overcome price, lack of a future, and popular myths? apparently not.
post #384 of 698
This thread has pretty much lost its way.
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post #385 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
If you are really interested by the perfect gaming machine, wait for the next PS3 or the...

If you really want to play a game on the Mac, buy a PowerMac G5 or just get an iMac and turn all the settings on low...

If you really want an affordable system, get an eMac...

If you really want expandability, get a PowerMac...

If you really want expandability at a good price, get a PC....

If you really want to play games, get a cheap PC...

If you really want a computer cheaper than an PowerMac, get an iMac...

If you really want an upgradeable video card (because nobody needs that), get a PowerMac...

If you really don't want the monitor attached to your computer, get a Power Mac...

If you really want a headless computer for an affordable price, get a PC...

If you really want a..... ah forget it.... just "get a fuggin life"



What is with the "put up or shut up" attitude of Mac users on these boards? There seems to be camp of people that are very sharply divided. What is so wrong with being critical of Apple and their products? Can we not say something without having someone snap, "just shut up and get a PC"?

I love Mac OS X (that's obviously why I'm here) but Apple's hardware is really holding them back, they are not allowing OS X to fully compete with Windows. On top of that, they haven't done anything with their 3% marketshare and stagnate unit growth, despite 50+ stores world-wide an an aggressive switcher campaign.

I, along with others, see flaws in their products and their inability to listen to their users and research markets to see what buyers want/need in a personal computer. Everyone here has their own opinion on what should be done, which is what these boards are for... intelligent debate.
post #386 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by applenut
yea, whatever? you are

And yet somehow, I'm not able to care.

Quote:
the choir aint veering off anywhere. you're veering off into some idealogical lala land that really doesn't matter to anything here and makes you come across as holier than thou.

Actually, I'm merely pointing out a serious hole in the argument that a 'comparable machine' can be found for less. 'Comparable' should include much more than the hardware, since the user interacts with much more than just the hardware. It's a pretty simple concept. Comparable hardware can be found for less. A comparable *system* can not, and that's what you're buying.

Quote:
apple can compete on price in other products, there is no reason they can't hear.

Considering that their motherboards, controller chips, and such are all done in-house, and not bought en masse from a third party, I have serious problems believing this assertion. There are plenty of reasons that could exist. You're going to have to back this claim up to convince me that there is 'no reason'.

Quote:
there is no reason they can't provide options. there is no reason they can't release a fully build to order and customizable consumer machine like every other computer manufacter can do.

Options are good. Too many options are confusing - same principle applies to UI widgets as it does here. It's basic psychology. Give someone more than a few well defined options, and most people just throw up their hands. I'd like to see more BTO as well, but 'no reason' doesn't apply here either.

Quote:
there is no reason apple needs to keep trying to repackage products that don't meet the needs and desires of its customers in hopes that eventually they'll get something right.

If they meet the needs and desires of most of the populace, then they're doing great.

Frankly, I have a seriously cynical view of people anyway, so I believe that most people haven't a *CLUE* what they actually need or desire... they just want what they're told to want. And what they're told to want is hardware specs, the rest of the system be damned.

Quote:
seems most people seem to do fine with the horrible experience of windows and its accompanying software and seem to manage burning cds, dvds, organizing photos and music just fine with their crappy software. does the better experience of the mac offer enough incentive to overcome price, lack of a future, and popular myths? apparently not. [/B]

Serious question: then why do *you* use a Mac?
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post #387 of 698
It seem to me that there are a bunch of separate issues all getting jumbled up here. As I see it, all of these questions apply to the Think Secret G5 iMac:

Is $1300 (US) a lot of money?

As if this question has an answer.

Obviously for some people $1300 is a lot of money, for others it isn't. Some people who can't afford $1300 will still think it's a reasonable price for a 17" G5 iMac, some people who can afford $1300 will bitch about the price anyway. Compared to what many people actually spend on computers, however, and not the $499 bargains that are advertised to lure customers in, $1300 isn't all that unreasonable. Someone else posted that the average price for the systems Dell actually sells is around $1500.

Is this G5 iMac going to win Apple a lot of market share?

I rather doubt that it will. I think this new iMac (as Think Secret's rumors describe it, at least) will sell reasonably well, but it will sell more to the existing base that to "switchers". If Apple really does want to attract more switchers, these new iMacs aren't the machines to do it with.

That's not the same thing as saying the iMac is a bad system, however.

Is what you'd get for $1300 worth it?

That's a complicated question that's obviously dependent on the personal needs of individual buyers. For one thing, if you don't want to spend money on the iMac's built-in monitor, of course that makes the value of the iMac questionable. But why bitch about the iMac for being what it is? If you don't want an AIO, don't buy an AIO. Bitch that Apple doesn't make a cheap headless system if you feel you have to bitch about something.

If you compare raw hardware features, the iMac is more expensive than a comparable PC, but not so much more so as all the bitching and moaning around here would lead one to believe. Go do what I did -- go to Dell's web site and try to build yourself a $999 system which includes a 17" LCD. (Remember that the cheapest shipping option adds $99, BTW. Apple ships for free, and there are retail stores you can go to as well.)

See what crap you get, including an analog-only flatscreen display and video hardware even lowlier than the GeForce FX 5200 Ultra which produces such heart-rending wails of anguished disappointed around here. Step up to Dell's better-quality 17" LCD, and you'll be right there around $1300.

You won't want to play Doom III on the above Dell either.

If $1300 is the price of the EDU model of the G5 iMac -- unclear to me from the Think Secret article -- the hardware-spec value proposition suffers a bit more than if $1300 gets you the combo drive model, but still not grievously so.

If you want a serious gaming machine, don't buy an iMac. I think that's simple enough. How much does the fact that the new iMac won't be a great gaming machine, and doesn't have (as is so often pined for here) an upgradable video card, effect the G5 iMac's value proposition? Not nearly so much as the consternation in this forum over those things would make one believe.

I have no figures or tests to base this on, but I'm guessing that a 1.6 GHz G5 will fair quite well compared to the 2.4 GHz Celeron you'd get in a PC at this price range, in a system that included a high-quality 17" LCD display for the price.

Is $1300 reasonable considering Apple's likely costs in building one of these things?

This question is not "Would a hypothetical cheaper Mac in a bland Dell-style box with a cheesey monitor (or no monitor at all) make me happy?" The question is, regardless of whether or not you want what comes with the purported G5 iMac, if you accept that what you get is what you get, is what you get reasonably priced?

Given the quality of the LCD display, Apple's smaller sales volume, and Apple's almost certainly higher costs for things like a custom G5 motherboard vs. the kind of commodity-priced Celeron mobo you'll get in a cheap Dell "bargain" system -- I don't see $1300 as that far out of line at all.
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We were once so close to heaven
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post #388 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by bborofka
I, along with others, see flaws in their products and their inability to listen to their users and research markets to see what buyers want/need in a personal computer. Everyone here has their own opinion on what should be done, which is what these boards are for... intelligent debate.

I agree, but some of the recent debates have lost their intelligence and become more emotional and vicious on both sides.
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Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous Communist plot we have ever had to face? - Jack D. Ripper
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post #389 of 698
Quote:
you're an ignorant waste of life if you're using the logic of a 1700 dollar tax return to tell me i don't know what I'm talking about.

Puhleeez your a baby son. You need to sit down, listen and let us grown folks talk. You haven't had hair on your nuts more than 3 years and now you're trying hang with us and give us knowledge? You better know your place kid. You can't can't even order drink for a dame in bar how am I gonna take life lessons from YOU? That's some funny shit. You aren't even on the same level as most of the adults here on this board. You need to shut the mouth and listen to your professors. You haven't lived enough to know what you're talking about. You're the one that needs experience..we got it.

You'll get there but too much piss and vinegar without experience is worthless.
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He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
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post #390 of 698
I think the TS specs are good for the $1300 system. What I want and am willing to pay $$ for is graphic card expandability. I don't know what thread at what site I said it, but I don't want my computer to be hobbled in 18 months (think about all of us Rev A TiBook users who couldn't use Quartz Extreme 18 months after purchase, which is 50% of the "useful life" espoused here and elsewhere) simply due to a non-upgradeable graphics card.

Why should I be forced into some box that Apple thinks I belong in? Even forgetting about the enforced LCD purchase, why can't these machines be more user upgradeable?

Heck, maybe if Apple is the only place to get upgraded graphics cards they can turn it into a new revenue stream.

If nothing else, the continued arguing in this thread shows there is a demand for upgradeable video cards. In the real world, demand drives products and product enhancements.
post #391 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by bborofka
If you really want to play a game on the Mac, buy a PowerMac G5 or just get an iMac and turn all the settings on low...

If you really want an affordable system, get an eMac...

If you really want expandability, get a PowerMac...

If you really want expandability at a good price, get a PC....

If you really want to play games, get a cheap PC...

If you really want a computer cheaper than an PowerMac, get an iMac...

If you really want an upgradeable video card (because nobody needs that), get a PowerMac...

If you really don't want the monitor attached to your computer, get a Power Mac...

If you really want a headless computer for an affordable price, get a PC...

If you really want a..... ah forget it.... just "get a fuggin life"



What is with the "put up or shut up" attitude of Mac users on these boards? There seems to be camp of people that are very sharply divided. What is so wrong with being critical of Apple and their products? Can we not say something without having someone snap, "just shut up and get a PC"?

I love Mac OS X (that's obviously why I'm here) but Apple's hardware is really holding them back, they are not allowing OS X to fully compete with Windows. On top of that, they haven't done anything with their 3% marketshare and stagnate unit growth, despite 50+ stores world-wide an an aggressive switcher campaign.

I, along with others, see flaws in their products and their inability to listen to their users and research markets to see what buyers want/need in a personal computer. Everyone here has their own opinion on what should be done, which is what these boards are for... intelligent debate.

This is not a put up or shut up attitude, this is an evidence. For playing games (but I am just an occasional game lurker) I use a PC. Why ? even if my powermac dual G5 certainly kick the ass of my Athlon 2400, the amount of game avalaible quickly for the PC is much more important than for the mac. For example I play and i appreciated greatly Neverwinter Night on PC, months before the Mac version was released.

With 3 % marketshare, Apple has no chance to become the leading company in gaming machines.
Now, if you took the time to read some othes post I made, I said that the geforce 5200 will be disapointing in the high end model I mac (and I may add the middle one also).

I am also for an intelligent debate, a debate, where people who will interpret correctly other people's posts, and do not shout " Apple Apologist" each time a poster disagree with them.
post #392 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Puhleeez your a baby son. You need to sit down, listen and let us grown folks talk. You haven't had hair on your nuts more than 3 years and now you're trying hang with us and give us knowledge? You better know your place kid. You can't can't even order drink for a dame in bar how am I gonna take life lessons from YOU? That's some funny shit. You aren't even on the same level as most of the adults here on this board. You need to shut the mouth and listen to your professors. You haven't lived enough to know what you're talking about. You're the one that needs experience..we got it.

You'll get there but too much piss and vinegar without experience is worthless.

You're a grownup? You sound like a snot to me.

Funny how discussion of rumored computer specs can degenerate into this kind of hate-filled vitriol.

Also funny is that 10 years ago, I was giving plenty of computer purchasing advice to people twice my age (at least) and they respected my opinion. Age has nothing to do with intelligence and aptitude, as you so aptly demonstrate in your post.
post #393 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by PBG4 Dude
If nothing else, the continued arguing in this thread shows there is a demand for [wanted feature]. In the real world, demand drives products and product enhancements.

post #394 of 698
Last word : people need to calm down.

Me included
post #395 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Last word : people need to calm down.

Me included

I'm sooo glad you changed your sig, Powerdoc. Seeing received mis-spelled as receveid day after day was giving me a pulmonary embolism.
post #396 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by bborofka

i agree 100%
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post #397 of 698
Quote:
You're a grownup? You sound like a snot to me.

I'm just razzing Applenut because he's a New Yorker and I know he can take it. I've read his posts for 3 years and he's a smart man but he's a tough cookie and I respect that. Obviously you are one of the new "Kinder Gentler men" . I'm sorry if I hurt your sensitive little feelings but despite my geekiness I do like a little "locker room" talk and machismo every now and then. You should try it more. You can call me worse than a snot man I don't care..when we argue on these boards..it STAYS on these boards. If I met anyone one of you in Seattle I'd let you buy me a beer. Well unless you're Matsu..then you'd "have" to buy him his beer

AN knows I'm ribbing him. He'll call me an ass or a prick and that'll be that. It's all good. BTW I'm kidding about the Kinder Gentler thing, I'm a bit of a joker but I "do" love to argue.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
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He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
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post #398 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
Comparable hardware can be found for less. A comparable *system* can not

Absolutely, but again you're just preaching to the choir. 95% of buyers don't understand the Mac experience. They see two machines with DVD burners and music and movie software. One looks nicer, but costs several hundred dollars more, so they understandably go with the cheap one. Apple has two choices: either educate the public about the superior Mac experience, or reduce the price differential. They are currently doing neither.
post #399 of 698
Taxes? Don't get me started!!! Dunno about any of you guys but between my wife and I, we pay more in Fed taxes alone to support another whole family! (including a nice vacation for them each year!).

Also if ANYONE is getting more than $400 back on their taxes YOU ARE IDIOTS!!!! Why on earth are you letting the government USE YOUR MONEY for FREE!?!?!?!?! My gosh!!! What happened to all the good tax advisors?!?!

I really WISH that the IRS would send each and every tax payer a BILL every month instead of this crappy auto-estimated automatic withdrawal system we have now... This would do 2 things:

1 - Tax-n-Spend Democrats (or Republicans) would NEVER get re-elected again
2 - People would really SEE how much the Fed and State grab from you each month.

Why not each taxpayer in the US give ME $2500 this year and I'll simply issue you a $2500 refund 4 months into the following year... I sure as hell think it sounds GREAT to me!!! The real killer is, most of you folks are HAPPY to get back that 'BIG RETURN' .... People are so freaking odd!!!

Sorry --- just had to rant...

Dave
Apple Fanboy: Anyone who started liking Apple before I did!
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Apple Fanboy: Anyone who started liking Apple before I did!
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post #400 of 698
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Do you have a child? Didn't think so. You're are inexperienced in this area and frankly don't know what you're talking about. After the birth of my son two years ago my tax returns went from $900 childless to $1700.

Er, I certainly hope you're spending more than $800 a year taking care of your son.
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