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Kerry gets purple heart without shots - Page 2

post #41 of 102
I understand that you and other Republicans don't like the fact that John Kerry is using his past military experience as a political asset. Your candidate could lose, after all. And if I understand correctly, you want to tarnish or diminish his military service to help impede his future political career-- namely, his bid for the White House. While the nitpicking at his record has revealed some minor discrepancies, the overall narrative of his life and his service remains unchanged, unassailable, and honorable-- to most.
post #42 of 102
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Say you're an uber-wealthy New England liberal elite who went to a war that was wildly unpopular and heavily contested. Say you came back and read a statement before Congress written by a group of soldiers who wanted to let America know, in a public fashion, what kinds of horrible things were going on in the war.

Are you suggesting that reading a group-authored statement in which some of the authors admit to committing war crimes is the same thing as smearing a war veteran's record for political gain?

Yes.

Quote:
o Kerry's used "testimony" from the VVAW's "Winter Soldier Investigation" as the basis for his war crimes charges, although none of the witnesses there were willing to sign depositions affirming their claims. Later investigators were unable to confirm any of the reported atrocities, and in fact discovered that a number of the witnesses had never been in Vietnam, had never been in combat, or were imposters who had assumed the identity of real veterans.

o The deception extended to the VVAW leadership. Executive secretary Al Hubbard claimed to have been an Air Force captain wounded piloting a transport over Da Nang in 1966. Hubbard was actually a staff sergeant who was never assigned to Vietnam.

Finally here is what Kerry claimed about the crimes and the reality of the situation.

Quote:
o In his April 1971 speech to the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, John Kerry claimed that war crimes committed by the American military against Vietnamese civilians were "not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis..." War crimes in Vietnam were actually quite rare.

o Kerry claimed that war crimes were being committed "with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command." In fact, military personnel were warned that "if you disobey the rules of engagement, you can be tried and punished." War crimes were never a matter of policy, and were prosecuted when discovered.

o Kerry charged that the war in Vietnam was a racist war, that "blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties." Research published in B.G. Burkett's book "Stolen Valor" and other sources shows that casualty rates for black and white soldiers during Vietnam closely matched the proportion of America's overall population represented by each race.

Quote:
So in other words you're saying that a decorated Vietnam veteran ought not mention his record because his opponents will just try to smear him and paint him as a coward? You sure you want to argue that? I swear to God, I can't figure conservatives (not you) out. Clinton didn't serve and the right wing went batshit about it. Kerry did serve, and the right wing is going batshit about it.

No point blank, I NEVER said that someone shouldn't be allowed to mention their record. I said point blank that when you brandish it as a credential that you claim makes you better than others, then others will say that it doesn't make you better than them.

Don't take my word for it here is an article where the Dean campaign blasts Kerry for it and where the war credentials have been used against Dean and Edwards.


Dean Blast

Quote:
Before he became a political candidate for president, John Kerry clearly believed that military service should not be used for political gain, said Jay Carson, a spokesman for Dean, the former governor of Vermont who is running well ahead of Kerry in recent New Hampshire polls.

And he was right about that, Carson added. Unfortunately, now John Kerry and his campaign have a strategy to use that record to further his political career.

Note that stopping someone from using their service for political gain against others is not the same as simply smearing them for political gain. Kerry is the one who has taken action here. The people who counter his claims do so as a reaction.

Quote:
Kerry was a decorated veteran who volunteered to go to a war that neither of the previous two presidents wanted to have anything to do with. He was wounded and came home. When he got home, he spoke out against the war and attempted to work with like-minded others to expose the evils he had seen while there.

Again, you seem to be suggesting that Kerry shouldn't talk about his record because his political opponents will just try to disparage his record.

He doesn't talk about his record except to silence people critical of his ideals. He doesn't do it against just Republicans. It has become his pat answer to dealing with anything he doesn't care to discuss. It amounts to, "You can't question me, I'm a vet and that means I'm better than you."

Quote:
At a Democratic presidential debate last Thursday, Kerry responded to a jibe from rival Sen. John Edwards (D-N.C.) about his privileged upbringing by recalling his war experience.

Can I say that when I was serving in Vietnam on a small boat, the one thing I learned was nobody asked you where you came from, Kerry said. Nobody worried about your background. You fought together, you lived together and you bled together.

Kerry then sought to turn his answer into political capital.

I think I stand here with a broader base of experience, both in domestic affairs and in foreign affairs, than any other person, he said of his Democratic primary opponents.

In May, Kerry told the Orlando Sentinel, I am the only person running for this job who has actually fought in a war.

When the reverse is true, when people say that issues related to war cannot be criticized, you absolutely call them on it. Kerry is not above criticism. It is not disgusting or unpatriotic or any other such word. He is a man who claims credentials and wisdom above others of all political persuasions. Questioning that isn't wrong or even offensive.

Quote:
Especially if that "questioning" involves attempting to smear a decorated war veteran. Now that I think about it, I really wish I'd interrogated my grandfather when he'd pull his WW2/Depression stories out on me to get me to do something. Maybe someone should've question GHW Bush's "war credentials" before they let him talk about it.

Perhaps they motivated you, but if he claimed he was right on an issue and you were wrong, for no other reason than those medals, you probably would question them. If he started claiming an authority of matters of certain English authors because of his medals, you would question his credentials, and it wouldn't be offensive to do so. You would ask him his basis for claiming such knowledge because having a war medal doesn't make one an English professor.

Nor does it make one more intelligent than someone else. It doesn't guarantee a better foreign policy. It doesn't guarantee a better plan to fight terrorism or deal with Iraq.

So when someone claims, it does, questioning that isn't offensive.

Quote:
As President, I will wage this war with the lessons I learned in war.

I was in a war so I am smarter, my plan is better. You can't claim my plan isn't better unless you were in a war and can judge it from that perspective. So now I am above criticism.

Bull...

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #43 of 102
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html


I think trying to tarnish Kerry's record is going to backfire if Bush continues to support it.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #44 of 102
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html


I think trying to tarnish Kerry's record is going to backfire if Bush continues to support it.

Actually you completely confirm my point. Who is the guy who keeps brandishing what he did and learned 30 years ago?

Quote:
In addition to Kerry's speech before an audience of firefighters, his campaign released a new 30-second campaign commercial that features a former Green Beret saying the young Navy lieutenant saved his life under fire.

Quote:
"Thirty years ago, this was the plain truth. It still is. And I still carry the shrapnel in my leg from a wound in Vietnam."

Quote:
"More than 30 years ago I learned an important lesson. When you're under attack the best thing to do is turn your boat into the attack. That's what I intend to do today."

Actually if Kerry really wants to win the election. He should remove the phrase "thirty years ago..." from anything he says and get on with detailing his better plan for America.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #45 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
He should remove the phrase "thirty years ago..."

Why, because it highlights that he has over 20 years more service to his country than Bush does? Yeah, I bet you'd like that.

Man, I don't even like kerry, but the ineptness of your attacks combined with Bush's horrible incompetence make him look outstanding. Go figure.
post #46 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Actually you completely confirm my point. Who is the guy who keeps brandishing what he did and learned 30 years ago?







Actually if Kerry really wants to win the election. He should remove the phrase "thirty years ago..." from anything he says and get on with detailing his better plan for America.

Nick

Enough. Christ.

You've been flouting the swift boat liar shit Kerry is obliged to defend his record against then you fault him for living in the past.

I mean, at some point, I would think you would start to get uneasy with the company you're keeping. Bush ads are running 75% negative vs. 27% for Kerry. Almost every attack from the Bush camp is scurrilous (he said sensitive! He's a fag!), flat out untrue (he voted against every defense appropriations bill!) or just bizarre (it does no good to raise taxes on the rich because they'll just find loop holes!).

What are you supporting, at this point, exactly? If the Bush people are good by your lights, why is all their talk made up shit about Kerry?

And please don't tell me that's just politics, because the Kerry people are not doing this. Why? Because there is plenty of true, verifiable things to say about the Bush administration that are damning.

I dunno Nick, I think you've gone off the reservation on this swift boat crap. I understand supporting your guy, but not when it leads you into a ditch full of shit.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #47 of 102
Why don't you actually quote what Kerry says about how his war record informed his views-- as opposed to fabricating what you *think* he says. And you still haven't shown how under military guidelines, Kerry did not deserve his Purple Hearts. Military guidelines, Nick, cited appropriately. The larger disinformation campaign against Kerry will not go away-- regardless of the merits of their case. Hopefully, we can pressure you into abandoning this baseless line of reasoning-- on the merits.
post #48 of 102
My big question is what can Bush run on? Iraq??? Economy? Enviroment? Healthcare? can this president run on anything positive he has done? He cant so all we are going to get from the republican party is mud spin and lies. Im ashamed of the republican tactics and lies. while George & Cheney were war dodgers Kerry was getting shot at. Im so ashamed i voted republican last time. This administration has taken our name down the tubes with the whole world. Bush has done nothing to deserve relelection and has done everything to disgrace the name of United States of America. where is Bin Laden? why did we attack Iraq when the 911 scum were Saudi's? where are those Wmds? Bush adminisration has been a failure.
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post #49 of 102
I can't believe how many pro-Kerry people- or anti-Bush people to more accurate- have fallen for this. You've let the right wing echo chamber win again. You were easily drawn into a debate over Kerry's record, feeling confident that you could defend Kerry's record. Which you could. But in the process, you let the GOPee-rs do exactly what the want which is to center the debate just over Kerry's record. What they don't want is to have Bush's far more questionable record as the focal point or worse yet, have Kerry's record compared to Bush's.

But the people on AI as well as the national media have done exactly what they were hoping for. No one is talking about Bush being persona non grata anymore. It's all about what happened on some boats during the fog of war three decades ago. Even if you take the accusations to heart then at worst Kerry had wounds as a volunteer in a war zone for a moderately short period which cannot all be substantiated but at least one was legit. Whereas Bush at best used his daddy to get him into the National Guard to avoid the war and missed time drilling because he was working on a Congressional campaign. At worst he was AWOL. Which is more favorable, the worst case Kerry scenario or the best case Bush scenario. Clearly Kerry's record trump(t)s Bush's. But no one is talking about that.

The same Bushies who shrugged off his arrest in the mid-70s for endangering people's lives while drunk driving as ancient history want to dwell on something Kerry did even before then. And by playing a part in letting Kerry's war record become the topic de jour you've let them get away with it. Ignore them and make Bush the topic. Bush's war record if you like. I prefer his record on the federal budget. On social issues the record is even scarier. On economics, well that one is so bad and actually matters to voters so much that it migth even get Kerry elected if people would pay attention to it.
post #50 of 102
I agree completely Colander, that's why I find it all so transparently idiotic and pathetic: I could see the tried-and-true derailment by slanderous implication tactic as it began . . . . its such an ugly thing to witness

They did it before with two other proud veterans: people who's records are anything but 'questionable' (in the same way that Kerry's is also not questionable) . . . it is the standard mode of operating with regards to any opposition by this party and its echo-chamber henchmen: insinuate and repeat outright hateful lies until the focus has completely been removed from Bush's lame record (and I don't just mean his military and business record . . . I also mean his presidential record) . .

and when you say "Bush's questionable record" . . . there is nothing 'questionable' about it . . . it is a travesty to have a leader with such a calamitous and at best mediocre record . . . a silver-spoon poseur pretending to be a 'common-man rancher' who has never had a real day's work in his life . . . never had a single callous on his palms gauranteed!!!!!
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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #51 of 102
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Why don't you actually quote what Kerry says about how his war record informed his views-- as opposed to fabricating what you *think* he says. And you still haven't shown how under military guidelines, Kerry did not deserve his Purple Hearts. Military guidelines, Nick, cited appropriately. The larger disinformation campaign against Kerry will not go away-- regardless of the merits of their case. Hopefully, we can pressure you into abandoning this baseless line of reasoning-- on the merits.

I would love to quote Kerry with regard to how the war informed his view. But Kerry has not fully detailed his differences from Bush regard to Iraq and terrorism. He just says things he never would have done, and that he will do better. On matters like withdrawing our troops and replacing them with those of our allies, it doesn't appear he would be able to follow through or that any of the countries mentioned will commit any troops.

On the areas where he does have statements, I have quoted him directly. If they aren't detailed, take it up with John Kerry.

I also mentioned why the first purple heart was not deserved and the criteria. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is invalid.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #52 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
But Kerry has not fully detailed his differences from Bush regard to Iraq and terrorism.

But the people around him, the ones who actually formulate such policy, have done so in detail.
post #53 of 102
Quote:
If he wants to have a debate about our service in Vietnam, here is my answer: 'Bring it on,'" declared Kerry to loud cheers.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #54 of 102
HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Now this is the BEST:

it turns out that the man who said that Kerry's boat did not take fire on that day when his own boat accompanyed Kerry's up river, has war records that say that they DID take fire: his own records say that they took fire that day!!!

He would deny his own heroism just because he hates Kerry!!!

ARTICLE

From the article:
Quote:
Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own version of events.

Quote:
Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act, contain several references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla.

This man swore an affadavid last month . . . so, he either lied on his record (punishable crime?) or he lied under affadavid (punishable crime?)
Let's see him in court, and see what happens to the "swift boat vets for 'truth'"
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #55 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Now this is the BEST:

it turns out that the man who said that Kerry's boat did not take fire on that day when his own boat accompanyed Kerry's up river, has war records that say that they DID take fire: his own records say that they took fire that day!!!

He would deny his own heroism just because he hates Kerry!!!

ARTICLE

From the article:
This man swore an affadavid last month . . . so, he either lied on his record (punishable crime?) or he lied under affadavid (punishable crime?)
Let's see him in court, and see what happens to the "swift boat vets for 'truth'"

Too funny...
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #56 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Now this is the BEST:

it turns out that the man who said that Kerry's boat did not take fire on that day when his own boat accompanyed Kerry's up river, has war records that say that they DID take fire: his own records say that they took fire that day!!!

He would deny his own heroism just because he hates Kerry!!!

ARTICLE

From the article:
This man swore an affadavid last month . . . so, he either lied on his record (punishable crime?) or he lied under affadavid (punishable crime?)
Let's see him in court, and see what happens to the "swift boat vets for 'truth'"

He won a bronze star that day. The guy attacking Kerry. For the same incident Kerry did. And he says there was no hostile fire.
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post #57 of 102
That guy is saying it was Kerry who wrote the report that was in his file. Not sure if that's plausible though.
post #58 of 102
... aaaaaaand this is the point where our Trumpt will go quiet ...
meh
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meh
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post #59 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
That guy is saying it was Kerry who wrote the report that was in his file. Not sure if that's plausible though.

Time to hand back that Bronze Star, I suppose.
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post #60 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
... aaaaaaand this is the point where our Trumpt will go quiet ...

Personally, I'm still waiting for a response to (not complaints of venom) my question of "Are Kerry's crewmates lying or is Trumtman simply wrong?" They vouch for Kerry. They vouch for this incident so it's one or the other.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #61 of 102
where was George when this was going on? oh yeah Texas playin pilot on weekends when he did decide to show up. I think we should look harder into Bushes records but they are missing. I have yet to see one commercial that shows Bush doing any good for this country of ours. all he is doing is throwing mud at Kerry because he has no record to run on. Bin Laden must be laughing at him big time while he still roams the deserts, and we the American tax payer are crying because he blew 200 billion and counting on a freaking lost cause. a republican president,congress & senate and he has nothing to run on. George's spin Doctors are working overtime arent they. oh yeah but George is trying to cut out overtime for a lot of americans. at least overtime pay. worst president since freaking Carter.
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post #62 of 102
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
... aaaaaaand this is the point where our Trumpt will go quiet ...

Why would I go quiet? First this doesn't have anything to do with what I brought up, the first purple heart for a self inflicted scratch that involved no enemy nor any fire from them.

Secondly as anyone with an ounce of comprehension can note, the person who criticized Kerry never said that there was enemy fire. The report was not filed by him and as a result doesn't contradict him.

Thurlow believed that his citation was for coming to the aid of a boat that had been hit by an enemy mine.

Thurlow speculated that the language about enemy fire came from Kerry who as a commander would have also filed a report.

Finally we have this little bit you may have forgotten to read.

Quote:
Two other Swift boat skippers who were direct participants in the March 13, 1969, mine explosion on the Bay Hap, Jack Chenoweth and Richard Pees, have said they do not remember coming under "enemy fire." A fourth commander, Don Droz, who was one of Kerry's closest friends in Vietnam, was killed in action a month later.

So we have a total of five swift boat captains involved. Three remember no enemy fire. One is dead and only John Kerry seems to remember being fired upon.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #63 of 102
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Personally, I'm still waiting for a response to (not complaints of venom) my question of "Are Kerry's crewmates lying or is Trumtman simply wrong?" They vouch for Kerry. They vouch for this incident so it's one or the other.

I must have missed your post faust. The articles I have linked to mentioned that the crewman did not encounter any enemy fire with first purple heart. They fired upon smugglers who were loading a boat at night. It was claimed that Kerry's wound was self-inflicted from launching a weapon at too close a range and having a piece of shrapnel from that weapon come back and hit him.

Please link again to what you would like for me to read.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #64 of 102
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by audiopollution
Time to hand back that Bronze Star, I suppose.

In the article Thurlow mentions that he did not believe he earned that Bronze Star for being under enemy fire. He said that if that were the case it would be fraudulent.

Quote:
"It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which wasn't the case," Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubt on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."

Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation.

He seems quite clear to me. Perhaps he wasn't busy filling out reports requesting medals and simply took the ones awarded him, unlike Kerry who was requesting them.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #65 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
I must have missed your post faust. The articles I have linked to mentioned that the crewman did not encounter any enemy fire with first purple heart. They fired upon smugglers who were loading a boat at night. It was claimed that Kerry's wound was self-inflicted from launching a weapon at too close a range and having a piece of shrapnel from that weapon come back and hit him.

Please link again to what you would like for me to read.

Nick

Again, Kerry's crew still vouches for him and this incident.

Here, I'll pull some stuff from an anti-kerry site for your enjoyment.

Quote:
The Boston Globe - June 6, 2003 -- Kerry experienced his first intense combat action on Dec. 2, 1968, when he "semi-volunteered for, was semi-drafted" for a risky covert mission in which he essentially was supposed to "flush out" the enemy, using a little Boston Whaler named "Batman." A larger backup craft was called "Robin."
Unfortunately, Robin had engine trouble, and Batman's exit was delayed until the boats could depart in unison. The Batman crew encountered some Viet Cong, engaged in a firefight, and Kerry was slightly wounded on his arm, earning his first Purple Heart on his first day of serious action.
"It was not a very serious wound at all," recalled William Schachte, who oversaw the mission and went on to become a rear admiral.

source

Yep, says he was wounded in a combat situation. Doesn't matter that the wound was minor. He met the criteria and was approved for the purple heart.

I don't know if you saw the DNC but there was a point--oh toward the last hour'ish--where Kerry's crew and one Green Baret vouched for Kerry's Viet Nam service

http://www.billingsgazette.com/testd...-crewmates.inc

I wonder what Del Sandusky has to say... Well Fox has a word or three

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,127586,00.html

There is only one guy critical of Kerry, Steve Gardner, who critiques Kerry's decisevness. The rest of his crew refute the claim

http://mediamatters.org/items/200408160005

The point is Trumpt, all of these guys vouch for Kerry and the incident in question. All of these guys say the incident occured. You might not like that Kerry got a medal of honor (not the medal of honor) for a minor wound--so be it. The fact is Kerry deserved it though. Read the requirements for the medal. He met them. Read what Zalinski(sp) had to say about Kerry before he died. He supported John.

I say again, the incident occured. Kerry was on a combat assignment. He engaged an enemy. He was wounded. Shrapnel was removed form his arm. All of this is verified and verifiable. The doctor who treated him said he pulled a small piece of metal out of his arm. The crew vouches for the mission occurance. It happened. Veitnamvetsagainskerry even says the event happened.

So, the crew either lied, or your wrong on this account. We've hashed out the validity of the medals before. You statred this thread with a premise that the event never occured which is false.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #66 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
In the article Thurlow mentions that he did not believe he earned that Bronze Star for being under enemy fire. He said that if that were the case it would be fraudulent.



He seems quite clear to me. Perhaps he wasn't busy filling out reports requesting medals and simply took the ones awarded him, unlike Kerry who was requesting them.

Nick

Oh c'mon!!! I was in the military. You don't show up and find a medal on your desk. You are presented with the medal. An honorous medal such as the bronze would be given with some pomp and circumstance. The citation (Kerry's is probably the same as this guys if you want to read it) is read aloud to proclaim why the soldier/sailor/airmen deserved the award. Kerry's mentions "hostile fire" so I bet dollars to dougnut his does too.

Think of a Bronze star as a teacher of the year award. Would you expect to come into class one day and find an award such as this thrown on your desk with absolutely no explaination? No.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #67 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Again, Kerry's crew still vouches for him and this incident.

It's already been explained to him, so this is clearly yet another example of trumptman knowingly making false statements.
post #68 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
It's already been explained to him, so this is clearly yet another example of trumptman knowingly making false statements.

I used to call this lying, but some people get mad when I do.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #69 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
I used to call this lying, but some people get mad when I do.

Use mendacious, prevaricating, or delusory. They're all adjectives and missleading in context if used correctly.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #70 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Use mendacious, prevaricating, or delusory. They're all adjectives and missleading in context if used correctly.

LIES AND MENDACITY!
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #71 of 102
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Oh c'mon!!! I was in the military. You don't show up and find a medal on your desk. You are presented with the medal. An honorous medal such as the bronze would be given with some pomp and circumstance. The citation (Kerry's is probably the same as this guys if you want to read it) is read aloud to proclaim why the soldier/sailor/airmen deserved the award. Kerry's mentions "hostile fire" so I bet dollars to dougnut his does too.

Think of a Bronze star as a teacher of the year award. Would you expect to come into class one day and find an award such as this thrown on your desk with absolutely no explaination? No.

Do you have some sort of reading disorder? I never said that the medal was given to him without his awareness or that there was no ceremony involved. I said that the medal was awarded based on the reports filed regarding that action. This as opposed to asking for the medal repeatedly and filing your own motion for it after being told the action did not merit a medal.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #72 of 102
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Again, Kerry's crew still vouches for him and this incident.

Here, I'll pull some stuff from an anti-kerry site for your enjoyment.

source

Yep, says he was wounded in a combat situation. Doesn't matter that the wound was minor. He met the criteria and was approved for the purple heart.

I don't know if you saw the DNC but there was a point--oh toward the last hour'ish--where Kerry's crew and one Green Baret vouched for Kerry's Viet Nam service

http://www.billingsgazette.com/testd...-crewmates.inc

I wonder what Del Sandusky has to say... Well Fox has a word or three

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,127586,00.html

There is only one guy critical of Kerry, Steve Gardner, who critiques Kerry's decisevness. The rest of his crew refute the claim

http://mediamatters.org/items/200408160005

The point is Trumpt, all of these guys vouch for Kerry and the incident in question. All of these guys say the incident occured. You might not like that Kerry got a medal of honor (not the medal of honor) for a minor wound--so be it. The fact is Kerry deserved it though. Read the requirements for the medal. He met them. Read what Zalinski(sp) had to say about Kerry before he died. He supported John.

I say again, the incident occured. Kerry was on a combat assignment. He engaged an enemy. He was wounded. Shrapnel was removed form his arm. All of this is verified and verifiable. The doctor who treated him said he pulled a small piece of metal out of his arm. The crew vouches for the mission occurance. It happened. Veitnamvetsagainskerry even says the event happened.

So, the crew either lied, or your wrong on this account. We've hashed out the validity of the medals before. You statred this thread with a premise that the event never occured which is false.

I checked your links. I guess I must have before and just ignored you because they have nothing to do with vouching for his first purple heart. First this crew couldn't have vouched for that purple heart because he wasn't on his swift boat and he wasn't even in command of one yet. He was still in training when this action happened.

As for the Boston Globes summary, I've read detailed sources that don't call it enemy fire and also mention that there was no enemy fire. The official military records on this incident mention no enemy fire.

So get your incidents and the people involved in them straight.

Finally address this straight up if you want me to leave the first purple heart matter alone.

Quote:
There are no written records of Kerry's magical first Purple Heart on file at the Naval Historical Center in Washington, the nation's primary repository for such documentation. A Purple Heart normally is not requested but is awarded de facto for a wound inflicted by the enemy - a wound serious enough to require medical attention. The Naval Historical Center keeps all documents connected to such awards to U.S. Navy and Marine personnel. These typewritten "casualty cards" list the date, location and prognosis of the wound for which the Purple Heart is given, and they are produced by the medical facility that provides treatment for the combat wound at the hands of the enemy. There are two such cards for Kerry - for his slight wounds on Feb. 20 and March 13, 1969, but none for his December 1968 claim.

Kerry fully knew what he was doing. He knew that it couldn't be a purple heat unless it was medically treated and that is why his critics have gotten the recollections of the doctor that treated him. It amounted to a a scratch that could be covered by a band-aid. Instead of putting the band-aid and bactine on himself, he had it "medically treated" so he could get his purple heart. But his commanding officer, declined his request, and he had to request because no one else thought that it warrented the medal. He got someone, somewhere to sign off on it either laterally to or above his commanding officer.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #73 of 102
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
It's already been explained to him, so this is clearly yet another example of trumptman knowingly making false statements.

Actually it's another example of you resorting to personal attacks.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #74 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Actually it's another example of you resorting to personal attacks.

It's not a personal attack to point out that you are knowingly spreading false information.

So, let's post a summary of everything you want to pretend doesn't exist:
Quote:
Long story short: trumpman, you are in no position to question it whatsoever. His commanding officer signed off on it (making it valid since regulations say that a commanding officer has to make a judgment call when the circumstances aren't totally clear). The two individuals with him, about whom you said "I'm not even questioning the two men that went on patrol with Kerry," are Kerry supporters who were both at the convention (and state that those attacking kerry, including you trumptman, are twisting their accounts of the incident).
post #75 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
... aaaaaaand this is the point where our Trumpt will go quiet ...

Haven't you learned by now that Trumpt will never ever let a thread go without him getting the last word . . . . no matter how wrong he was shown to be and no matter how many pages ago he was shown to be wrong . . . . what ususally happens (and this post may be its beginning) is that he derails the thread unstead by concentrating on the 'personal attacks' issue. . until it peters out and then he can get the last post in.
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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #76 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Haven't you learned by now that Trumpt will never ever let a thread go without him getting the last word . . . . no matter how wrong he was shown to be and no matter how many pages ago he was shown to be wrong . . . . what ususally happens (and this post may be its beginning) is that he derails the thread unstead by concentrating on the 'personal attacks' issue. . until it peters out and then he can get the last post in.

Eristic. That's the term.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #77 of 102
George Bush has had a horrendous record in office and has done great damage to our current and future economy.
post #78 of 102
God Trumpy you were wrong!


Get over it already!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #79 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Eristic. That's the term.

Cool. It pays to enrich your word power.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #80 of 102
Nice turn of events. Too funny.

Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
George Bush has had a horrendous record in office and has done great damage to our current and future economy.

Yep. Unfortunately the far right has masterfully manipulated and brainwashed its sheep into acting like politics are a sport.
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