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Kerry gets purple heart without shots - Page 3

post #81 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Cool. It pays to enrich your word power.

Yup. It's a handy word. Pfflam will I hope correct me on this if I've got it wrong, but I understand that, historically, it it used to describe people who argue to win as opposed to those who argue to seek the truth.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #82 of 102
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
It's not a personal attack to point out that you are knowingly spreading false information.

So, let's post a summary of everything you want to pretend doesn't exist:

I fully addressed that. You ignore it. You do this continually. You attempt to kill of the messanger since you don't like the message. You start making weird assertions, claims and attempt to invalidate something about their background. You do it often.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #83 of 102
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Haven't you learned by now that Trumpt will never ever let a thread go without him getting the last word . . . . no matter how wrong he was shown to be and no matter how many pages ago he was shown to be wrong . . . . what ususally happens (and this post may be its beginning) is that he derails the thread unstead by concentrating on the 'personal attacks' issue. . until it peters out and then he can get the last post in.

Actually it isn't that I concentrate on it. It is that some folks, often you are included in them, start resorting to that when they have nothing else to rely on.

You've got a brain Pfflam. You count you the last say... ten posts besides mine an tell me how many of them are addressing the thread, and how many of them are discussing creative ways of calling people liars.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #84 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Actually it isn't that I concentrate on it. It is that some folks, often you are included in them, start resorting to that when they have nothing else to rely on.

You've got a brain Pfflam. You count you the last say... ten posts besides mine an tell me how many of them are addressing the thread, and how many of them are discussing creative ways of calling people liars.

Nick


Maybe they were trying to be nice.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #85 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
... nothing else to rely on.

No, it's just that you say things like "nothing else to rely on" in this thread of all places.
post #86 of 102
Double Standards

Digby reminds us what happened when another factually challenged book came out in the middle of a camapign season. Why is there a double standard for the right wing media?

The issue isn't whether the editor of St. Martin's should have resigned during the Hatfield/Fortunate Son controversy - it's that he resigned under almost universal pressure to do so.

Where's the pressure now?
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #87 of 102
Uh-Oh spaghetti-o's... A vet has broken a 35 year silent to BACK KERRY.

Here's the Chicago Tribute (the liberal shills they are) article:

Quote:
Anti-Kerry vets not there that day

By William B. Rood
Chicago Tribune
Published August 21, 2004

There were three swift boats on the river that day in Vietnam more than 35 years agothree officers and 15 crew members. Only two of those officers remain to talk about what happened on February 28, 1969.

One is John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate who won a Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other.

For years, no one asked about those events. But now they are the focus of skirmishing in a presidential election with a group of swift boat veterans and others contending that Kerry didn't deserve the Silver Star for what he did on that day, or the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts he was awarded for other actions.

Many of us wanted to put it all behind usthe rivers, the ambushes, the killing. Ever since that time, I have refused all requests for interviews about Kerry's serviceeven those from reporters at the Chicago Tribune, where I work.

But Kerry's critics, armed with stories I know to be untrue, have charged that the accounts of what happened were overblown. The critics have taken pains to say they're not trying to cast doubts on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on all of us. It's gotten harder and harder for those of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come from people who were not there.

Even though Kerry's own crew members have backed him, the attacks have continued, and in recent days Kerry has called me and others who were with him in those days, asking that we go public with our accounts.

I can't pretend those calls had no effect on me, but that is not why I am writing this. What matters most to me is that this is hurting crewmen who are not public figures and who deserved to be honored for what they did. My intent is to tell the story here and to never again talk publicly about it.

I was part of the operation that led to Kerry's Silver Star. I have no firsthand knowledge of the events that resulted in his winning the Purple Hearts or the Bronze Star.

But on Feb. 28, 1969, I was officer in charge of PCF-23, one of three swift boatsincluding Kerry's PCF-94 and Lt. j.g. Donald Droz's PCF-43that carried Vietnamese regional and Popular Force troops and a Navy demolition team up the Dong Cung, a narrow tributary of the Bay Hap River, to conduct a sweep in the area.

The approach of the noisy 50-foot aluminum boats, each driven by two huge 12-cylinder diesels and loaded down with six crew members, troops and gear, was no secret.

Ambushes were a virtual certainty, and that day was no exception.

Instructions from Kerry

The difference was that Kerry, who had tactical command of that particular operation, had talked to Droz and me beforehand about not responding the way the boats usually did to an ambush.

We agreed that if we were not crippled by the initial volley and had a clear fix on the location of the ambush, we would turn directly into it, focusing the boats' twin .50-caliber machine guns on the attackers and beaching the boats. We told our crews about the plan.

The Viet Cong in the area had come to expect that the heavily loaded boats would lumber on past an ambush, firing at the entrenched attackers, beaching upstream and putting troops ashore to sweep back down on the ambush site. Often, they were long gone by the time the troops got there.

The first time we took firethe usual rockets and automatic weaponsKerry ordered a "turn 90" and the three boats roared in on the ambush. It worked. We routed the ambush, killing three of the attackers. The troops, led by an Army adviser, jumped off the boats and began a sweep, which killed another half dozen VC, wounded or captured others and found weapons, blast masks and other supplies used to stage ambushes.

Meanwhile, Kerry ordered our boat to head upstream with his, leaving Droz's boat at the first site.

It happened again, another ambush. And again, Kerry ordered the turn maneuver, and again it worked. As we headed for the riverbank, I remember seeing a loaded B-40 launcher pointed at the boats. It wasn't fired as two men jumped up from their spider holes.

We called Droz's boat up to assist us, and Kerry, followed by one member of his crew, jumped ashore and chased a VC behind a hoocha thatched hutmaybe 15 yards inland from the ambush site. Some who were there that day recall the man being wounded as he ran. Neither I nor Jerry Leeds, our boat's leading petty officer with whom I've checked my recollection of all these events, recalls that, which is no surprise. Recollections of those who go through experiences like that frequently differ.

With our troops involved in the sweep of the first ambush site, Richard Lamberson, a member of my crew, and I also went ashore to search the area. I was checking out the inside of the hooch when I heard gunfire nearby.

Not long after that, Kerry returned, reporting that he had killed the man he chased behind the hooch. He also had picked up a loaded B-40 rocket launcher, which we took back to our base in An Thoi after the operation.

John O'Neill, author of a highly critical account of Kerry's Vietnam service, describes the man Kerry chased as a "teenager" in a "loincloth." I have no idea how old the gunner Kerry chased that day was, but both Leeds and I recall that he was a grown man, dressed in the kind of garb the VC usually wore.

The man Kerry chased was not the "lone" attacker at that site, as O'Neill suggests. There were others who fled. There was also firing from the tree line well behind the spider holes and at one point, from the opposite riverbank as well. It was not the work of just one attacker.

Our initial reports of the day's action caused an immediate response from our task force headquarters in Cam Ranh Bay.

Congratulatory message

Known over radio circuits by the call sign "Latch," then-Capt. and now retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann, the task force commander, fired off a message congratulating the three swift boats, saying at one point that the tactic of charging the ambushes was a "shining example of completely overwhelming the enemy" and that it "may be the most efficacious method of dealing with small numbers of ambushers."

Hoffmann has become a leading critic of Kerry's and now says that what the boats did on that day demonstrated Kerry's inclination to be impulsive to a fault.

Our decision to use that tactic under the right circumstances was not impulsive but was the result of discussions well beforehand and a mutual agreement of all three boat officers.

It was also well within the aggressive tradition that was embraced by the late Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, then commander of U.S. Naval Forces, Vietnam. Months before that day in February, a fellow boat officer, Michael Bernique, was summoned to Saigon to explain to top Navy commanders why he had made an unauthorized run up the Giang Thanh River, which runs along the Vietnam-Cambodia border. Bernique, who speaks French fluently, had been told by a source in Ha Tien at the mouth of the river that a VC tax collector was operating upstream.

Ignoring the prohibition against it, Bernique and his crew went upstream and routed the VC, pursuing and killing several.

Instead of facing disciplinary action as he had expected, Bernique was given the Silver Star, and Zumwalt ordered other swifts, which had largely patrolled coastal waters, into the rivers.

The decision sent a clear message, underscored repeatedly by Hoffmann's congratulatory messages, that aggressive patrolling was expected and that well-timed, if unconventional, tactics like Bernique's were encouraged.

What we did on Feb. 28, 1969, was well in line with the tone set by our top commanders.

Zumwalt made that clear when he flew down to our base at An Thoi off the southern tip of Vietnam to pin the Silver Star on Kerry and assorted Bronze Stars and commendation medals on the rest of us.

Error in citation

My Bronze Star citation, signed by Zumwalt, praised the charge tactic we used that day, saying the VC were "caught completely off guard."

There's at least one mistake in that citation. It incorrectly identifies the river where the main action occurred, a reminder that such documents were often done in haste and sometimes authored for their signers by staffers. It's a cautionary note for those trying to piece it all together. There's no final authority on something that happened so long agonot the documents and not even the strained recollections of those of us who were there.

But I know that what some people are saying now is wrong. While they mean to hurt Kerry, what they're saying impugns others who are not in the public eye.

Men like Larry Lee, who was on our bow with an M-60 machine gun as we charged the riverbank, Kenneth Martin, who was in the .50-caliber gun tub atop our boat, and Benjamin Cueva, our engineman, who was at our aft gun mount suppressing the fire from the opposite bank.

Wayne Langhoffer and the other crewmen on Droz's boat went through even worse on April 12, 1969, when they saw Droz killed in a brutal ambush that left PCF-43 an abandoned pile of wreckage on the banks of the Duong Keo River. That was just a few months after the birth of his only child, Tracy.

The survivors of all these events are scattered across the country now.

Jerry Leeds lives in a tiny Kansas town where he built and sold a successful printing business. He owns a beautiful home with a lawn that sweeps to the edge of a small lake, which he also owns. Every year, flights of purple martins return to the stately birdhouses on the tall poles in his back yard.

Cueva, recently retired, has raised three daughters and is beloved by his neighbors for all the years he spent keeping their cars running. Lee is a senior computer programmer in Kentucky, and Lamberson finished a second military career in the Army.

With the debate over that long-ago day in February, they're all living that war another time.

Copyright © 2004, Chicago Tribune

source Requires registration to see for yourself.


So with that, I bid the Bush shills a good day.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #88 of 102
So trupmt, you're either wrong, or the guys that where there are liars. Which is it? I tend to believe guys who where there over the lies of party shills who where not... Good day.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #89 of 102
Sort of like when Bob Dole got a Purple Heart for throwing a grenade against a tree and hurt his own dumb self?
"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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post #90 of 102
Person on boat says Kerry injured himself

Enjoy
post #91 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by kozchris
Person on boat says Kerry injured himself

Enjoy

How long before his own records contradict him?
Like everyone else . . .

Why didn't he say anythig when the records were being codified, the records that say enemy fire was encountered, the records that gave more medals than just those of kerry?

Novak . . . and Fox . . hah

BTW: from the end of the article:
Quote:
In a related development, Robert Lambert, a fellow crewman in a separate incident for which Kerry was awarded a Bronze Star, disputed their former commander and said the boat did come under fire.

He added that Lt. Larry Thurlow, the boat's commander who has challenged Kerry's account, was too distracted to notice the gunfire because he was busy rescuing other sailors.

All five Swift boats in the task force "came under small-arms and automatic-weapon fire from the river banks," Lambert said.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #92 of 102
The other people on that boat deny that guy was even there.
post #93 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
The other people on that boat deny that guy was even there.



links?
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #94 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by kozchris
Person on boat says Kerry injured himself

Enjoy

Did you completly miss the R. Wood article I posted above? Read it, you might learn a thing or two.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #95 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam


links?

From the Fox article
Quote:
Two former enlisted men who are supporting Kerry have said they were with him in the boat that day and that Schachte was not.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #96 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam


links?

Here's one.

Quote:
Yes, there have been questions about whether the wound Kerry suffered that night really merited a Purple Heart, though those decorations were handed out rather liberally. But rather than quoting the two men known to have accompanied Kerry on that mission, "Unfit for Command" asserts a third person was along. William Schachte, later a rear admiral, "was also on the skimmer," the book claims.

It offers this account: "After Kerry's M-16 jammed, Kerry picked up an M-79 grenade launcher and fired a grenade too close, causing a tiny piece of shrapnel . . . to barely stick in his arm. Schachte berated Kerry for almost putting someone's eye out." Schachte could not be reached for comment. But in a brief interview yesterday, O'Neill asserted that Schachte had told him, as well as other military men, that he had been on the skimmer.

"I spoke to Admiral Schachte," O'Neill said. "He places himself on the skimmer." O'Neill also hinted that Schachte will soon address the issue himself. So what do William Zaladonis and Patrick Runyon, the two men who were on the skimmer with Kerry at the time, say?

"Myself, Pat Runyon, and John Kerry," says Zaladonis, the engineman on Kerry's first swift boat, "we were the only ones in the skimmer."

"There definitely was not a fourth," says Runyon.
post #97 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Here's one.

I just want to post what I said last time one of these guys was completely discredited!
Quote:


It is sooo pathethic that I can't BELIEVE it!!!!



There is no way that this negative bounce for Kerry will last . . . this stuff is just too rich!!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #98 of 102
From the NYT:
Quote:
President Bush said on Thursday that he did not believe Senator John Kerry lied about his war record
post #99 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by Ra
From the NYT:

yea but Bush is a dumbass remember? what does he know?
orange you just glad?
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orange you just glad?
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post #100 of 102
Bush V The Economy--Death match.

Here's a real issue to chew on for a while. Since Pro-Bushies wont come to us with issues, I'll bring the issues to them and their threads... MewHaHaHA!!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5829707/
http://nytimes.com/2004/08/27/business/27CND-ECON.html
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5842079/

I think Kerry should run as a compassionate conservative.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #101 of 102
Quote:
Originally posted by Ra
From the NYT:

Perfect strategic timing: now he has made it inpossible to bring up the discrepenceis in Bush's record and yet the damage to Kerry's 'character' has allready been done . . .

(how can anybody listen to Bob Dole and not see it as outright malicious bullshiit: "I heard it was bloodles'!!!!! how could anyone hear this and not know immediately that the whole kit-and-kabootle was all lies!?)

. . . and the coup of the timing?! . . . its now on into the GOP Convention!! . . . . so it is now all-GOP all-the-time, no matter what comes out about the SBV4B!!!
Try to clear the record, try to rebuild his character, -(though those who paid attention don't need it)- and kerry will seem desperate and out of touch, he will look like johny-come-lately



It is has been orchestrated far better than anything else Bush has done in his whole life!!

Makes me sick . . . the one thing they are good at is lying, and lying to the detriment of good people . . .
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #102 of 102
Here is an incendiary editorial from Bob Herbert (Conservative?) about the whole issue . . . it makes for good reading.

log in with 'appleinsider' I believe
(the articel was written before Bush's coup-de-gras of a well timed SBV$B dismissal)

Where Is The Shame?

.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
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