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swift boat liars running aground

post #1 of 166
Thread Starter 
(I know we have several threads sort of about this but they're getting buried in the usual)

The um.... hull is coming off the swift boat slime story.

Yesterday's Washington Post story pointed out that Larry Thurlow, who now says Kerry wasn't under enemy fire when he performed the rescue that earned him the Bronze Star, himself received the Bronze Star for the same engagement.

We now have an actual piece of investigatory journalism from the New York Times.

In addition to sorting out the web of funding and relationships that ties this whole sorry episode to the Republican party and the Bush white house, the Times checks what these guys are saying now compared to what they said before, as well as other inconsistencies.

In brief:

George Elliot, featured in the ad saying "John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam", said in 1996: "The fact that he chased an armed enemy down is not something to be looked down upon, but it was and act of courage." Moreover, in an evaluation of Mr. Kerry in 1969, Mr. Elliott, who was one of his commanders, ranked him as "not exceeded" in 11 categories, including moral courage, judgment and decisiveness, and "one of the top few" - the second-highest distinction - in the remaining five. In written comments, he called Mr. Kerry "unsurpassed," "beyond reproach" and "the acknowledged leader in his peer group."

Elliot is also the guy who then said he should not have signed that affidavit criticizing Kerry, then signed an affidavit reaffirming his original criticism, and is now not talking to the press.

Roy Hoffmann, who says in the ad "John Kerry has not been honest", said in 2003, recalling the actions that led to Kerry's Silver Star, "It took guts, and I admire that"

Adrian Lonsdale, who says in the ad, "He lacks the capacity to lead" spoke in 1996 of the "bravado and courage of the young officers that ran the Swift boats" and went on to say "Senator Kerry was no exception. He was among the finest of those Swift boat drivers."

Larry Thurlow, who now says his own Bronze medal may have hinged on Kerry's action report, doesn't mention that later intelligence reports indicate that one Vietcong was killed in action and five others wounded, reaffirming the presence of an enemy. He also claims that the bullet holes in his boat were sustained the day before the battle in question.

As far as Kerry writing the action report, Mr. Elliott and Mr. Lonsdale, who handled reports going up the line for recognition, have previously said that a medal would be awarded only if there was corroboration from others and that they had thoroughly corroborated the accounts.

"Witness reports were reviewed; battle reports were reviewed," Mr. Lonsdale said at the 1996 news conference, adding, "It was a very complete and carefully orchestrated procedure." In his statements Mr. Elliott described the action that day as "intense" and "unusual."

Dr. Louis Letson, who in the add says Kerry didn't deserve a Purple Heart because "I treated him", doesn't mention that one J.C. Carreon actually signed the treatment form. He admits there is absolutely no way to verify his story.

Quite the little crew, isn't it? Maybe, by some miracle, our supine press will actually start to treat this story for what it is: a particularly ugly piece of slime politics that ought to smear Bush more than it does Kerry.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #2 of 166
Swift Boat Lying Douchebags (NYT Graphic)
post #3 of 166
What this is ment to do is divert attention from Bush's record this past 4 years so instead of everyone talking about current issues we are rambling on about something 30 years ago. this is just what Bush wants.
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VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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post #4 of 166
At least we can count on the NYT to be impartial. I read the article, and it's perhaps one of the most biased things I ever seen, even in the NYT.


Quote:
Ater weeks of taking fire over veterans' accusations that he had lied about his Vietnam service record to win medals and build a political career, Senator John Kerry shot back yesterday, calling those statements categorically false and branding the people behind them tools of the Bush campaign.

If Kerry says something, he "shoots back". If Bush says something, he "claims" so that he can "seek to portray".

You know, the funny thing is they might just be tied to the Bush White House. But, I don't hear anyone screaming about the Media Fund and MoveOn.org running illegal CANDIDATE-SPECIFIC ads, now do I?

Back to the article:

Quote:
His decision to take on the group directly was a measure of how the group that calls itself Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has catapulted itself to the forefront of the presidential campaign.

"Calls itself": This tends to portray the group as illegitimate.


Quote:
The strategy the veterans devised would ultimately paint John Kerry the war hero as John Kerry the "baby killer" and the fabricator of the events that resulted in his war medals.

Wow, now it's getting fun. Kerry's war record is highly questionable. His conduct immediately following the war is highly questionable. John Kerry, according to his own words, committed war crimes. It's on video. I say again: It's on video.

Quote:
Several of those now declaring Mr. Kerry "unfit" had lavished praise on him, some as recently as last year.

Uh, sorry, you don't get to use that tactic. Why? Because.....I believe it was.....yes, RICHARD CLARKE that praised Bush as early as last year, but noone seemed to accept that counter-argument 6 months ago.

I won't even go on. That's all from the first page.

Somehow I doubt that we'll ever see the NYT ever publish an article titled "Friendly Fire: The birth of an Anti-Bush Ad"!!!!!! You want to roast this group and expose them as frauds? Fine. You better not have a goddamned double standard though.


<- No liberal bias!
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #5 of 166
Oh come on SDW2001... Let's see FOXNews: Kerry attacks, Bush criticizes etc etc.

If you really must point out peculiar language use, FOXNews is the one media outlet that tweaks it at every moment. While the nyts abuse of language is rare.
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #6 of 166
Be careful, hardeeharhar. You are talking to the kind of conspiracy theorist that will zero in on whether they use the word "place" or "put" and go on for hours about it. The best thing to do is just drop him some loose change and move on.

As for the swifties, it's good to see all this coming out about them. It's just another example of this administration's shady crap. I long for the days when we can have a choice between a democrat and a normal, down-to-business republican candidate. These radicals and their antics got old a long time ago.
post #7 of 166
Isn't it funny how when they don't like what the "veteran war hero's" have to say it is permissable to attack them?

Max Cleland.... oh how dare you!
John Kerry.... oh how dare you!

Swiftboat Vets.... dude, toss some fuel on that fire.

Finally even the Times has to note who started this whole frenzy about service..... John Kerry...

Quote:
Both Mr. Hoffmann and Mr. Lonsdale had publicly lauded Mr. Kerry in the past. But the book, Mr. Brinkley's "Tour of Duty," while it burnished Mr. Kerry's reputation, portrayed the two men as reckless leaders whose military approach had led to the deaths of countless sailors and innocent civilians. Several Swift boat veterans compared Mr. Hoffmann to the bloodthirsty colonel in the film "Apocalypse Now" - the one who loves the smell of Napalm in the morning.

The men were determined to set the record straight and formed a group to do so.

So obviously it must be a Bush front group right?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #8 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
The men were determined to set the record straight and formed a group to do so.

Keep repeating it to yourself. All of those people looking at you funny as they walk past are out to get you. Even that social worker is just trying to fill your head with lies. That beer you are drinking isn't even beer, it's blood. Bugs are crawling under your skin.
post #9 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Isn't it funny how when they don't like what the "veteran war hero's" have to say it is permissable to attack them?

Max Cleland.... oh how dare you!
John Kerry.... oh how dare you!

Swiftboat Vets.... dude, toss some fuel on that fire.

No one attacked these guys until they came out and started attacking Kerry himself, in just about the nastiest way imaginable. Should they just be allowed to make claims without anyone challenging them?
post #10 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
What this is ment to do is divert attention from Bush's record this past 4 years so instead of everyone talking about current issues we are rambling on about something 30 years ago. this is just what Bush wants.

You and colander are absolutely right. There is no discussion of real, practical policy issues. But it also reveals something about this administration: that they are more concerned with politics than policy. The reason, I think, is because the policies they do have are too radical to just ride on them. They have to be hidden behind all of this junk in order to get put in place. Kevin Drum had a post hinting toward this not too long ago. It's also the only real explanation for why such a radical administration can get into power in such a stable and successful country.
post #11 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
No one attacked these guys until they came out and started attacking Kerry himself, in just about the nastiest way imaginable. Should they just be allowed to make claims without anyone challenging them?

BRussell, shame on you. They replied to the attacks made on them in Kerry's book. If Bush is declared to initiate an attack on a vet, you call it deplorable. When Kerry is shown to do the same, you support it.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #12 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Keep repeating it to yourself. All of those people looking at you funny as they walk past are out to get you. Even that social worker is just trying to fill your head with lies. That beer you are drinking isn't even beer, it's blood. Bugs are crawling under your skin.



Hahahahaha, I just had my biggest laugh in a week.

Thank you giant. Thank you.

See, you are as predictable as a cheap romance novel. In fact I had just posted this in another thread about you, and the actions you would take.

Note the time stamp...

Quote:
posted 08-20-2004 07:14 AM

Note my assertion about giant.

Quote:
You attempt to kill of the messanger since you don't like the message. You start making weird assertions, claims and attempt to invalidate something about their background. You do it often.

Note the time giant posted this reply...

Quote:
posted 08-20-2004 07:20 AM

And of course the reply itself...

Quote:
Keep repeating it to yourself. All of those people looking at you funny as they walk past are out to get you. Even that social worker is just trying to fill your head with lies. That beer you are drinking isn't even beer, it's blood. Bugs are crawling under your skin.



The best laugh I have had all week.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #13 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
BRussell, shame on you. They replied to the attacks made on them in Kerry's book. If Bush is declared to initiate an attack on a vet, you call it deplorable. When Kerry is shown to do the same, you support it.

Nick

Kerry attacked these guys in his book and they responded? Can you show me where Kerry attacked them, because I don't believe that. Which book are you talking about?

They initiated these charges that he falsified his war record. Are you saying they were responding somehow to Kerry? That just doesn't make any sense. Many of them supported Kerry's record in the past. How has he attacked them?
post #14 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Kerry attacked these guys in his book and they responded? Can you show me where Kerry attacked them, because I don't believe that. Which book are you talking about?

They initiated these charges that he falsified his war record. Are you saying they were responding somehow to Kerry? That just doesn't make any sense. Many of them supported Kerry's record in the past. How has he attacked them?

I already mentioned it.

Quote:
Mr. Brinkley's "Tour of Duty," while it burnished Mr. Kerry's reputation, portrayed the two men as reckless leaders whose military approach had led to the deaths of countless sailors and innocent civilians.

You can look for it at Amazon.com

You can also see that it was just published in January of this year.

The quotes from the Times are partial and not in context. It would be much easier to judge them if we could see the full quotes. A lot of those quotes look like cut and paste jobs from much larger statements.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #15 of 166
How many threads does this make where Trumpy won't let it go?

Trumpy you were wrong already!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #16 of 166
Swift Boat Lying Douchebags-- and those that defend them.
post #17 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Swift Boat Lying Douchebags-- and those that defend them.

Way to attack veterans who have nothing more than political differences with you....

Let me flip a little leftivism on you...

You have no right to question them! You weren't there. You haven't served. You weren't under fire. You don't have any medals. Etc...etc..etc...

Oh wait, you're only allowed to use those when the vet is John Kerry! I forgot.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #18 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
How many threads does this make where Trumpy won't let it go?

Trumpy you were wrong already!

he never lets it go until the thread gets locked. He's got it down to an art. When trumpt is wrong, he just makes it so no one else can continue talking about the subject.
post #19 of 166
HE PURPOSEFULLY INJURED HIMSELF WITH A GRENADE!

HE ATTACKED THE ROSEY, RAINBOW, ICE-CREAM, FLOWER-PICKING SOLDIERS IN 'NAM FOR *GASP* KILLING A SHITLOAD OF PEOPLE WITHOUT CAUSE!

HERO!
TRAITOR!

WE CAN'T MAKE UP OUR MINDS!

But don't dare attack us for attacking you for attacking the American presence in Vietnam and some of truly gruesome conduct of warfare.

post #20 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
I already mentioned it.



You can look for it at Amazon.com

You can also see that it was just published in January of this year.

The quotes from the Times are partial and not in context. It would be much easier to judge them if we could see the full quotes. A lot of those quotes look like cut and paste jobs from much larger statements.

Nick

If that's true then I stand corrected.
post #21 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
I already mentioned it.



You can look for it at Amazon.com

You can also see that it was just published in January of this year.

The quotes from the Times are partial and not in context. It would be much easier to judge them if we could see the full quotes. A lot of those quotes look like cut and paste jobs from much larger statements.

Nick

I still don't get it. This wasn't Kerry's book.
post #22 of 166
Thread Starter 
Yeah, well, aside from how the Times is the tool of black helicopters and all...

How about the substantive, documented inconsistencies and direct self contradiction that the article is about?

Does it shake the faith of any of our not-so-swift boat enthusiasts? Seems to me ya'll were arguing that the allegations against Kerry were "troubling" if not "devastating". That the word of a bunch of vets was worth at least the word of Kerry and his ship mates.

What say you now?
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #23 of 166
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #24 of 166
You all know that it doesn't matter . . . they might as well have held up a sign that said "Kerry raped a thousand pigs in a night of drunken furor"
The people who want to hate Kerry will look at the argument against the fact as just so much equivocating by lefty intellectuals . . . . they will look at the number of words used, and that is enough for them to dismiss the whole counter-argument . . . . in fact, I fear, they don't even care to look it is merely a game of sides to most: like an NFL team or something.

Or,
Like the unconsciuos cynicism of the bushlickers around here: they will argue about this incredibly contrived and vulgar topic non-stop because it diverts energy away from all other criticisms and concerns over Bush, and worse, seems to place Kerry on the defense with regards to his obvious courage and relative (to Bush) heroism.

Also, the notion that the article is 'biased' becomes more and more telling when SDW says: ""Calls itself": This tends to portray the group as illegitimate."
While the whole article, bolstered by the SBVfT's inconsistencies, and obvious alterior motives is tantamount to PROOF that they are in fact "illigitimate".

Oh, and then we have Nick continuing, without, apparently, the possibility of self-reflective criticism, the notion that Max Cleland deserved the GOP slander attacks on his service and record!>!>!>!?

You see, the difference is that we have the proof that these guys are lying for political purposes
whereas the only 'proof' that you have is these guys' lies!


But you know what, -(and I know that you know)- it doesn't matter, because it has already served the purpose for the Bush admin . . . in the same way that the aforementioned slander campaigns against Cleland and McCaim worked despite the fact that anybody with a flea's speck of insight could see what was going on . . . . they still shaped teh discourse in a pathetic and disgraceful, but masterful way.


(I can not help but constantly be struck by the feeling that we are NOT merely a country divided by "equal and opposite" halves, but really, by those who operate completely on the notion of 'IMAGE', on one hand, and on the other, those who have become wise to the reality that IMAGE is often a lie . . . . or , yes, the 'elite' who can think critically about a phenomena (often too critically) and those who align themselves with an 'image' for better or worse.)
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #25 of 166
And the fact that they have now done this with multiple veterans (and we can certainly expect it again) shows how little respect the current republican leadership (and its lemmings) really have for those who serve our country.
post #26 of 166
It appears the administration DOES have control over the swift boat vets. Well, well, well. LIARS! All of them!

From McClellan:

McClellan offered Kerry's campaign some terms for an end to the negative ads both sides are running.

"We could put an end to it all if Sen. Kerry would come out and join the president and say 'let's stop this,'" McClellan said.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #27 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
It appears the administration DOES have control over the swift boat vets. Well, well, well. LIARS! All of them!

From McClellan:

McClellan offered Kerry's campaign some terms for an end to the negative ads both sides are running.

"We could put an end to it all if Sen. Kerry would come out and join the president and say 'let's stop this,'" McClellan said.

What I don't get is that Kerry did say that in the Convention and is not responsible for any real attack ads.

In fact, I just read a good article about Errol Morris doing Swich adds with Republicans and Kerry's campaign, but the Kerry campaign was not interested because the idea sounded too confrontational . . . so Morris went to MoveOn.
AND,
Kerry spoke-out AGAINST the add by MoveOn that attacked Bush's National Guard "career' . . . he said it was too negative.

This press release by the Bush ream is just another way of attacking Kerry by painting him as partly responsible for the climate of attack . . . saying that he too should stop . . . but he hasn't started . . . except for the 'bring it on' in his speech to the Firemen in Ohio . . . .

typical doublespeak tactic . . . like a soft push-poll
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #28 of 166
Thread Starter 
My hope would be that this is so outrageous that there will coalesce a generalized revulsion to the slime machine.

Unlikely, I realize, but there are signs that some in the media seem to have reached their limit of pretending like it's all "tit-for-tat" politics as usual (for instance Chris Matthews of Hardball has really teed off on a couple of guests trying to press this line of attack).

I think there is at least the chance that the "story" will become why the Bush administration is willing to tacitly endorse this kind of destructive ugliness.
If the press decides that there is a narrative thread running through the previous attacks against veterans and the all over viscousness of the Rove era, we might have a chance for some good to come out of this.

Or not.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #29 of 166
Kerry press release (Excerpt):

Bush Campaign Busted Passing Out Swift Boat Veterans for Bush Flyer
Washington, DC - Despite constant denials, the Bush-Cheney campaign today was busted coordinating with the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush in their smear campaign against John Kerry. The following press release was issued this afternoon by the Florida Democratic Party. The evidence is attached.

Bush Campaign Caught Promoting "Swift Boat Vets for Truth"

While National Campaign Denies Coordination, Campaign in Florida Promotes Rally

Tallahassee -- On the same day that the Bush-Cheney campaign repeatedly denied coordinating attacks with the anti-Kerry group "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth," the Bush-Cheney campaign in Florida was caught promoting a rally in Gainesville for the group.

A flyer being distributed at the Alachua County Republican party headquarters, which doubles as the Bush-Cheney campaign headquarters for the county, promotes a weekend rally sponsored by "Swift Boat Vets for Truth, Veterans for Bush, Alachua Bush/Cheney Committee," and others.


"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #30 of 166
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #31 of 166
Josh Marshall had an important insight today about the subtext of the Swift Boat Liars attack: _It is not just designed to cast aspersions on Kerry's military record or honesty. _There is more to it. _When Kerry does not fight back, it creates an image that Kerry is such a wimp that he won't even defend himself; therefore, how can we believe he would defend America? _But there is yet another level. _When he does fight back, he is crazy!
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #32 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate

That doesn't say Swiftboat... it says Vietnam Veterans Against Kerry.

That is an entirely different group.

Now I'm not claiming that coordination could occur. I personally don't know. I have no doubt that the 529's on the Democratic side have been coordinating. I mean their ad buys for example "just happen" not to overlap and also "just happen" to allow Kerry to conserve his campaign cash by having the 529's make large buys when Kerry chooses not to do so.

But this that you have presented here is not proof. It isn't even the same group. I'll be happy to look at some real proof though.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #33 of 166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
That doesn't say Swiftboat... it says Vietnam Veterans Against Kerry.

That is an entirely different group.

Now I'm not claiming that coordination could occur. I personally don't know. I have no doubt that the 529's on the Democratic side have been coordinating. I mean their ad buys for example "just happen" not to overlap and also "just happen" to allow Kerry to conserve his campaign cash by having the 529's make large buys when Kerry chooses not to do so.

But this that you have presented here is not proof. It isn't even the same group. I'll be happy to look at some real proof though.

Nick

I'm not even going to be mean about this, because I assume you just didn't look at it very hard.

See the second line of the flier? Next to the American flag in bold face. "SWIFT BOAT VETS FOR TRUTH"

I like how this is a "pro U.S.A. political rally".

Darn those democrats and their anti-USA platform.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #34 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
I'm not even going to be mean about this, because I assume you just didn't look at it very hard.

See the second line of the flier? Next to the American flag in bold face. "SWIFT BOAT VETS FOR TRUTH"

I like how this is a "pro U.S.A. political rally".

Darn those democrats and their anti-USA platform.

Well come on addabox, the "Swift Boat Vets for Truth" part is only the largest type inside the box right next to the flag and is the only type in BOLD inside the same box so I can see why it could be "easy" to miss.



This is just too bloody hilarious. Could someone please circle the Swift Boat part in red or something so it's easier to "catch"?
post #35 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
I'm not even going to be mean about this, because I assume you just didn't look at it very hard.

See the second line of the flier? Next to the American flag in bold face. "SWIFT BOAT VETS FOR TRUTH"

I like how this is a "pro U.S.A. political rally".

Darn those democrats and their anti-USA platform.

You're entirely right. I missed it. Thank goodness I'm a believer that both parties are using 529's to get around campaign finance laws. To me it shows the stupidity in trying to restrict speech or claiming you can have too much speech.

Bill Maher often goes off on the various networks for devoting so little time to the conventions. But sadder than that is how we think there is too much money in politics. We spend more on vanilla ice cream than we do on electing a president.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #36 of 166
Since there is a visible link to the funding from the GOP and these 529s the burden of proof is on you to provide some solid information with regards to the Democrats and their supposed use of PR henchmen . . .

I think that you will not find it . . . you expect everyoe to be exactly like the GOP, which, as far as I can see it, can be the only explanation as to why you still eat their gruel so consistently . . . and spit it back at us.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #37 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Since there is a visible link to the funding from the GOP and these 529s the burden of proof is on you to provide some solid information with regards to the Democrats and their supposed use of PR henchmen . . .

I think that you will not find it . . . you expect everyoe to be exactly like the GOP, which, as far as I can see it, can be the only explanation as to why you still eat their gruel so consistently . . . and spit it back at us.

Not to be rude Pfflam, but what the hell are you talking about? Do you honestly think that if the UNBIASED NY Times actually did a piece investing who has donated to moveon.org that the donor list wouldn't look like a who's who of Democratic donators?

The NY Times piece is nothing more than guilt by association. I assure you that the same associations occur on the Democratic side.

By the way, I called them 529's but they are 527's.

Here is what I get for George Soros for hard money donations during this cycle from Open Secrets.org

Soros donations

Hmmmm.... Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, John Kerry, Howard Dean... am I reading the DNC speakers schedule? Oh..no wait, I'm reading the Soros donation list.

But hey, if it's guilt by association, then Moveon.org clearly must be a Democratic dirty work front group as well.

But better yet, let's look into their donations to 52...7's.

Here is the opensecrets donation page for SwiftBoat Vets.

Big Money

Note the total..

TOTAL: $158,750

Look at how much attention this group has gotten for raising under two hundred thousand dollars from a few Republican donors.

Here is the page for top 529 donors. Notice that the top two donors are both the men who helped fund Moveon.org (and about a total of 10 other 529's all similar in nature that they donate to)

Top 20

Note that the largest SwiftBoat donation wouldn't even make the top 20.

Notice that Soros and Lewis have given a combined $26 MILLION to various 529 groups including $5 million to MoveOn.org

In fact take the list of top 20 donors, click on say the first ten and see if you don't notice a trend.

Also note that the amounts of money these Democratic groups are dealing with are HUGE compared to the SwiftBoat vets. If the SwiftBoat vets had millions I could understand an investigation since that would look like a front. But instead it is the Democratic groups that have raised huge amounts of money, probably around a hundred million dollars, often in very large donations by a small group of people, often by the same groups over and over again, and yet this is seen as ok, above suspicion, etc.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #38 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Not to be rude Pfflam, but what the hell are you talking about? Do you honestly think that if the UNBIASED NY Times actually did a piece investing who has donated to moveon.org that the donor list wouldn't look like a who's who of Democratic donators?

The NY Times piece is nothing more than guilt by association. I assure you that the same associations occur on the Democratic side.

By the way, I called them 529's but they are 527's.

Here is what I get for George Soros for hard money donations during this cycle from Open Secrets.org

Soros donations

Hmmmm.... Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, John Kerry, Howard Dean... am I reading the DNC speakers schedule? Oh..no wait, I'm reading the Soros donation list.

But hey, if it's guilt by association, then Moveon.org clearly must be a Democratic dirty work front group as well.

But better yet, let's look into their donations to 52...7's.

Here is the opensecrets donation page for SwiftBoat Vets.

Big Money

Note the total..

TOTAL: $158,750

Look at how much attention this group has gotten for raising under two hundred thousand dollars from a few Republican donors.

Here is the page for top 529 donors. Notice that the top two donors are both the men who helped fund Moveon.org (and about a total of 10 other 529's all similar in nature that they donate to)

Top 20

Note that the largest SwiftBoat donation wouldn't even make the top 20.

Notice that Soros and Lewis have given a combined $26 MILLION to various 529 groups including $5 million to MoveOn.org

In fact take the list of top 20 donors, click on say the first ten and see if you don't notice a trend.

Also note that the amounts of money these Democratic groups are dealing with are HUGE compared to the SwiftBoat vets. If the SwiftBoat vets had millions I could understand an investigation since that would look like a front. But instead it is the Democratic groups that have raised huge amounts of money, probably around a hundred million dollars, often in very large donations by a small group of people, often by the same groups over and over again, and yet this is seen as ok, above suspicion, etc.

Nick



I don't know Trumpy. It looks to me like this is going to do more harm than good for the Bush campign now.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...oat/index.html
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #39 of 166
Great Now Bush and Kerry can "lawyer up" for the 2004 election.
post #40 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Swift Boat Lying Douchebags-- and those that defend them.

What flavor Kool-Aid is again?
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
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