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swift boat liars running aground - Page 4

post #121 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Well, that's the problem isn't it? You keep insisting this even after you have been shown that these very same men praised Kerry to high heaven just a few years ago, even after you have it explained to you that the process of vetting the awarding of a medal requires more than the word of the person involved, even after the people actually on Kerry's boat have called these charges a lie, even after a skipper of one of the other boats has called it a lie, even after we learn that one of Kerry's accusers received a Bronze star for the same action that he now says Kerry didn't deserve his Bronze star for, even after the republican guy Kerry rescued has called it a lie, even knowing that this smear is part of a pattern of Karl Rove orchestrated attacks and is remarkably similar to previous campaigns against veterans, even knowing that the lead guy has been after Kerry for 30 years for what he did after he got back, even knowing that veterans that want Kerry hurt for what he did after he got back are in no short supply, and even knowing that nothing these guys say is anything more than here-say, and all documentary, credible evidence at hand supports Kerry and refutes the swift boat liars.

And you want us to believe that you simply think there is something here that bears investigation, because, well, you just do.

Instead of suspecting that you simply delight in anything that damages Kerry's campaign, and will tirelessly front for it, because you have no decency and care only about winning.

There really is no other way to take this, Nick. Nobody, and I mean nobody who is paying attention and isn't simply eager to see Kerry defeated by whatever means necessary, thinks this stuff is anything but the sleaziest kind of political attack, designed to damage exactly what Kerry took out of the convention, and that is credibility as a war time leader.

So I say again, i simply don't believe you when you say that you think there is some substance to this. I don't think you're that stupid.

But I'm forced to conclude that you are that amoral, that you don't care what is true and not, and that as a representative of contemporary conservatism you are all too typical.

Adda,

I'm pretty much through wasting my time with you. You keep repeating the same charges that have been addressed ten different ways. You don't wish to see them in any other manner, so don't. At the end of every time you repeat this rant you also launch into personal attacks on my because I refuse to change my view for no other reason than you just repeat yourself. You've called me wrong on everything, a liar, and now amoral.

Obviously the moderation here is profoundly bias because I'm sure a pattern this clear with a conservative member would have resulted in a temp ban or thread lock. My threads have been locked for people like you attacking me in them. Both Scott and SDW have been temp banned. But people like you get to be wrong on an issue, repeat yourself ad infinitim without adding anything new, and then tack on a new personal attack each time you do.

You talk about the process being explained to me. I already knew the process and used it to point out how Kerry repeatedly requested his first purple heart. He kept requesting it until someone who was not his commanding officer and who saw the wound and knew of the actions related to it, gave it to him. Kerry hasn't released the paperwork surrounding it. I've pointed (twice) to the Naval Historical Center in Washington which has no paperwork on file for this purple heart. So you are completely lying. The paperwork doesn't support you. The people involved don't support you.

As for being amoral, it is contemporary liberalism that wishes to judge no one. Kerry is a coward who weaseled out of Vietnam, came back and made himself well known by accusing those still behind of war crimes and atrocities. He was married and while married committed adultery multiple times. He even gave (loaned) his campaign millions via his wife so that he could defeat better candidates.

It is you and others on the left that are amoral. Only you could call ok that a guy who used "loans" to beat a true anti-war candidate while claiming such status for himself despite voting for the action. You amorally watch as these Democrats kick and block Nader from getting on the ballot in state after state and call that fine because, hey Kerry's got to win no matter what the cost. You watch the Democrats run slushfund 527's where the rich get to spend millions influencing this election with no accountability. All to get a candidate in office who is going to drop corporate taxes lower while raising income taxes. You can claim it is only on the rich, I'll bet any amount of money you care to wager that if Kerry is elected he will raise them on everyone, even Social Security Income, just as Clinton did.

Amoral my ass. It is the Democrats who have a take no prisoners, anything is fine as long as it beats Bush attitude.

Last words on this, you are welcome to have the last word for the thread.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #122 of 166
Dear lord Nick...

Unsupported claims of marital infidelity (which even if true would be par for the course, but certainly lacking in some sort of moral fiber)...

The truth is that Bush weaseled out of going to Vietnam. He didn't risk his life for the nation. Kerry volunteered for service, didn't like what he saw in Vietnam, and came back to fix things. I don't see why so many have problems with that. The war in Vietnam was a miserable failure; costly in terms of American lives and the simple principle of a nation's right to choose their own form of governance. (heh, We still haven't learned, have we?)
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #123 of 166
Quote:
...and then tack on a new personal attack each time you do.

You are a whining hypocrite and you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

Are you seriously trying to act like you don't throw out personal attacks left and right? <stupid trumpt ad-hom>PUT DOWN THE CRACK PIPE!</stupid trumpt ad-hom>

Plenty of non-conservative posters have been temp-banned and perma-banned. You wouldn't know, of course, but that doesn't keep you from acting like you do know, now does it?

And I think you are one of the few people left who still put stock in the Swifties. The phenomenon did not last very long.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #124 of 166
I really hate to take this off topic but I felt the need, as a moderator of this forum, to address a point made above.

Quote:
Obviously the moderation here is profoundly bias because I'm sure a pattern this clear with a conservative member would have resulted in a temp ban or thread lock. My threads have been locked for people like you attacking me in them. Both Scott and SDW have been temp banned. But people like you get to be wrong on an issue, repeat yourself ad infinitim without adding anything new, and then tack on a new personal attack each time you do.

If you have an issue with a particular moderator or administrator, please bring it up with them via PMs. Please note that while moderators can lock threads, only administrators can ban people from the forums.

From the posting guidelines:
Quote:
All comments about a moderator or an administrator should be directed to him personally (or another administrator if the member does not feel comfortable dealing directly) by using private messaging or e-mail. Do not start a thread or make public posts in any forum for the purpose of expressing displeasure with the actions of a moderator or administrator.

Also:
Quote:
Moderators' and administrators' most visible functions are the locking and moving of threads. If your thread is locked, an explanation should be posted by the moderator who locked the thread as to why. If you feel the moderator who locked your thread has erred in locking it, e-mail or private message the moderator or an administrator about it. Do not create a new thread protesting the lock, post complains, or a make a thread in Suggestions about it. If your thread is moved, the bulletin board software will automatically append a notice and arrow icon to the title of the thread in its original forum stating that it has been moved. Again, if you feel your thread was moved or locked in error, please contact the moderator responsible or an administrator via e-mail or private message.

For the record, yes, I am a liberal and a Democrat. I have been a long time moderator of the Future Hardware and Digital Hub forums. With other moderators/admins retiring, more people were needed to help moderate AppleOutsider and PoliticalOutsider and I volunteered. Since taking on this position, I have tried to uphold the posting guidelines to the best of my ability, which means that I have edited especially foul language from posts and moved political threads from AO into PoliticalOutsider. I can't remember locking a thread or giving anyone any type of warning (outside of especially foul language) since I started moderating this forum.

As moderators, we try to be fair and objective. I'm sorry if there are people who think we take pleasure in locking threads because of political bias or ban people to 'win an argument'. If you felt a thread was locked without good reason, please PM a Moderator of the forum or an Administrator. If you feel that someone has gone over the line, use the Notify a Moderator button at the bottom of each post. This sends every moderator of the forum an email and while action is sometimes not taken, we read the entire thread and note the complaints for future reference and generally send a reply to the person making the complaint on what action has been taken.

Sorry for the long post but I felt this was serious enough to warrant a response. We realized from the beginning that this year's election was going to be a very divisive issue and it is one of the main reasons that PoliticalOutsider was created. We don't want threads spiraling out of control but we do realize that everyone posting here has a very strong (and sometimes emotional) opinion about who they will vote for in the upcoming November elections (and from what I've seen, it has been written in stone for many, many months).

The debates over the election are only going to become more heated as we go into Labor Day, the GOP Convention in New York, and will most likely come to a boil in October as we head towards Election Day. We will do our best to keep threads on topic and away from becoming full of personal attacks.

If anyone has any comments or concerns about this post, they can PM me directly or email me at francism@mac.com.
post #125 of 166
Needless to say that I agree 100% with Fran.
I will add that the fear to appear biased, won't prevent us to take the necessary actions.
post #126 of 166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Adda,

I'm pretty much through wasting my time with you. You keep repeating the same charges that have been addressed ten different ways. You don't wish to see them in any other manner, so don't. At the end of every time you repeat this rant you also launch into personal attacks on my because I refuse to change my view for no other reason than you just repeat yourself. You've called me wrong on everything, a liar, and now amoral.

Obviously the moderation here is profoundly bias because I'm sure a pattern this clear with a conservative member would have resulted in a temp ban or thread lock. My threads have been locked for people like you attacking me in them. Both Scott and SDW have been temp banned. But people like you get to be wrong on an issue, repeat yourself ad infinitim without adding anything new, and then tack on a new personal attack each time you do.

You talk about the process being explained to me. I already knew the process and used it to point out how Kerry repeatedly requested his first purple heart. He kept requesting it until someone who was not his commanding officer and who saw the wound and knew of the actions related to it, gave it to him. Kerry hasn't released the paperwork surrounding it. I've pointed (twice) to the Naval Historical Center in Washington which has no paperwork on file for this purple heart. So you are completely lying. The paperwork doesn't support you. The people involved don't support you.

As for being amoral, it is contemporary liberalism that wishes to judge no one. Kerry is a coward who weaseled out of Vietnam, came back and made himself well known by accusing those still behind of war crimes and atrocities. He was married and while married committed adultery multiple times. He even gave (loaned) his campaign millions via his wife so that he could defeat better candidates.

It is you and others on the left that are amoral. Only you could call ok that a guy who used "loans" to beat a true anti-war candidate while claiming such status for himself despite voting for the action. You amorally watch as these Democrats kick and block Nader from getting on the ballot in state after state and call that fine because, hey Kerry's got to win no matter what the cost. You watch the Democrats run slushfund 527's where the rich get to spend millions influencing this election with no accountability. All to get a candidate in office who is going to drop corporate taxes lower while raising income taxes. You can claim it is only on the rich, I'll bet any amount of money you care to wager that if Kerry is elected he will raise them on everyone, even Social Security Income, just as Clinton did.

Amoral my ass. It is the Democrats who have a take no prisoners, anything is fine as long as it beats Bush attitude.

Last words on this, you are welcome to have the last word for the thread.

Nick

Sure, I'd be happy to have the last word.

Pretty much everything in your post is untrue. Factually, demonstrably untrue.

The only way I can imagine that anyone would actually believe this stuff is if they completely swore off "mainstream" sources of information and relied entirely on the self reinforcing right wing propaganda matrix to form their world view.

Which I guess is not that unusual in the current climate; but it goes back to an earlier point I made-- the cynical erosion of the very idea of objective truth in order to clear the ground for right wing fabulists.

Intelligent people know how to synthesize information from multiple sources, know how to judge credibility based on a variety of criteria, know how to weigh what they are seeing now against what they have seen before, can discern motives that might influence the tenor of the information provided.

So I will withdraw my earlier, unfortunate characterization of you as amoral.
Your last post suggests the other option.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #127 of 166
Great Dispatch article. But it's the last sentence that sparks the most interesting argument:

Quote:
If the tactic works, none of the men and women now fighting in Iraq can trust that the medals they earn won't someday be used against them.

Will Republicans be historically known as being the most hypocritical in their treament of war veterans?

A favorite phrase from conservatives lately has been "we must do everything in our power to support the troops." This phrase is often used as a shot across the bow upon hearing any whiff of political dissent or as a slogan to instantly put a stop to any argument over the war in Iraq.

In other words: speaking out against the war = not supporting the troops = traitor.

What I find particularly interesting is that conservatives will not hesitate to destroy a veteran, his reputation, his service to his country if he is either a) a Democrat running for office or; b) a fellow Republican who's not "the chosen one" to run for said office.

I would love to hear from a Republican here that will please explain this interesting plurality of the conservative ideology.

[Note: And please, I don't want to hear any bullshit responses that Kerry started all this by tumpeting his war record. Wrong. Kerry started showcasing his war record as a response to the attacks that he was a cheese eating, French looking, limp wristed New England liberal who will be soft on terrorism. So none of this "Kerry started it" crap.]
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #128 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
As for being amoral, it is contemporary liberalism that wishes to judge no one. Kerry is a coward who weaseled out of Vietnam, came back and made himself well known by accusing those still behind of war crimes and atrocities. He was married and while married committed adultery multiple times. He even gave (loaned) his campaign millions via his wife so that he could defeat better candidates.

This has to be the most amazing display of trumpt's absolute willngness to purchase anything said by the Right-wing media . . . I mean this rant is unbelievably absurd!!!
"weaseled out of Vietnam"?! you HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING!! someone musta hijacked your post and implanted this stuff because it is too much!

He didn't 'accuse' anyone of war crimes, as the slander echo-chamber would have everyone believe, He read a statement made from many combined people's perspective that said that atrocities were happening, and they were, and that many officers were even aware of, and condoned them, which they did: ex: hellicopter interogations (more common than you think, and I know a vet Hellicopter-gunner who is now a Christian an has taken a life-long vow of silence since the war, because of the atrocities committed and seen) He also, continues to describe that these 'atrocities' were committed and then describes what he means by 'atrocities': firing in a freefire zone, burning hutches, using 50cals against people . . . thee definitely happened, and these were definitely strategic, not merely the whim of soldiers.

BTW:

Probably already dead . . . but who knows for sure.


The caption reads
Quote:
A US Marine guards a Viet Cong prisoner as they walk to the collection point 10 October, 1965 in Vietnam. The US Defense Department refused to reopen an investigation into suspected atrocities committed in Vietnam by a special US Army reconnaissance unit, despite new allegations of war crimes, including ghastly killings and torture of Vietnamese civilians.

How many of these refusals are there?!

"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #129 of 166
Kerry's Latest Reply

Starring George W. Bush and Senator John McCain!
eye
bee
BEE
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eye
bee
BEE
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post #130 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Kerry's Latest Reply

Starring George W. Bush and Senator John McCain!

Old tricks is good because Kerry's team didn't have to say a word. It's there for all to see.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #131 of 166
Thread Starter 
Issues.

Keep it coming. "America deserves better" indeed.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #132 of 166
That McCain ad makes me ill. What a sack of shit our president is.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #133 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Obviously the moderation here is profoundly bias because I'm sure a pattern this clear with a conservative member would have resulted in a temp ban or thread lock. My threads have been locked for people like you attacking me in them. Both Scott and SDW have been temp banned. But people like you get to be wrong on an issue, repeat yourself ad infinitim without adding anything new, and then tack on a new personal attack each time you do.

How do you know who was temp banned and who wasn't? (Edit: Oh, I see this has already been addressed, and very eloquently so.)
post #134 of 166
This thread contains, without a doubt, some of the most unbelievably pathetic and ludicrous posts ever posted on these forums.
Some of these posts are so absurd I truly feel sorry for their posters.
post #135 of 166
By the way, could someone care to tell me, if Kerry is a coward, what does that make Bush and Cheney who probably couldn't find Vietnam on a map?
post #136 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
How do you know who was temp banned and who wasn't? (Edit: Oh, I see this has already been addressed, and very eloquently so.)

It's pretty easy to see when people are banned because the large red BANNED appears next to their names in threads they have already posted in.

You are right that I don't have admin rights. But the point is that I know the crowd here (as do you) and when certain people stop posting for a period of time and you notice a big BANNED instead of senior member when their postings are displayed, it is kind of noticeable.

I would notice it if it were Pfflam, giant, adda, you, grove, Jimmac, etc. or anyone else not because you agree or disagree with me, but because you all post fairly often. The people who post once every blue moon, I could care less about.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #137 of 166
cry me a river . . .
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #138 of 166
I don't know if this SBV4T vet's lies have been disclosed here yet or not. If so, then it's a double exposure.

Alfred French: Told lies in a commercial to defame Kerry.

French's affidavit:
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/orego...9949215830.xml

Another Oregonian story:
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/orego...4897012430.xml

More from the Oregonian:
http://www.oregonlive.com/editorials...9752215831.xml

One from ABC news:
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/...0824_1014.html

Blurb at the bottom of this CNN article:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html

French didn't "serve" with Kerry. His testimony is based on second hand facts...
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #139 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
French didn't "serve" with Kerry. His testimony is based on second hand facts...

SOunds like 'facts' is too strong a word here . . .

How about based on strategies from other people told to him?
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #140 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
SOunds like 'facts' is too strong a word here . . .

How about based on strategies from other people told to him?

I can live with that characterization.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #141 of 166
Here's a good article that shows that Kerry very probably and most likely was in Cambodia on Christmas Eve of 1968.

But this was all under orders that werre given behind Congress' back . . . but is now well known

HERE

.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #142 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
none of these 527's have been around for very long because the law that created them has only been on the books for three years. Moveon.org was formed with the intent of defeating Bush.
[...]
MoveOn and their affiliates were formed to be shadow campaigns to allow the Democrats to spend unlimited, unaccounted for money in the election of whoever they wanted to run against Bush.

Actually, moveon.org was founded in 1998. Also, I understand that it's a 501(c)(4) (the moveon.org Voter Fund is a separate 527, there's also a moveon.org PAC).
post #143 of 166
Thread Starter 
And now it turns out that "the guy that actually served on Kerry's boat", John Gardner, wasn't there either:

"
Quote:
Although he did not appear in the ad, Gardner, 56, of Clover, S.C., agreed with those statements while conceding he was not on the boat with Kerry during the incidents for which Kerry got his medals. Gardner criticized his leadership in battle, questioned his anti-war activities, and cited other instances in which he said Kerry falsified reports to make himself look good.

"We had that war won until John Kerry and Hanoi Jane Fonda stuck their nose in it," Gardner said. "Hes a traitor."

That last bit is the real story here. Vets who still believe that Vietnam was a winnable war if not for public opinion turning against it, and who hate John Kerry for playing a role in turning that opinion.

Hate him enough to lie now, and lie repeatedly, on the record.

If I were any of these guys I would think about getting a good attorney, because "freedom of speech" does not extend to knowingly promulgating lies designed to injure the reputation of another person.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #144 of 166
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #145 of 166
Here is what George Elliot said to a local newspaper on June 9:

Quote:
"I think the questioning of his war record was way overblown.
He earned his purple hearts even though I would say they were being
given out fairly easily. My detestation - if you can call it that -
comes from things he said after he came home. He painted all military
in Vietnam as war criminals and that's a pretty broad brush..."

I'm posting this here because this interview is not known in the national media.
post #146 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by mrtwistor
Here is what George Elliot said to a local newspaper on June 9:
I'm posting this here because this interview is not known in the national media.

Which newspaper is that? Have a link? Thanks.
post #147 of 166
The Cape Gazette in southern Delaware. No links - they don't keep old articles up.
post #148 of 166
Here are some good pragraphs from a n article in Salon:
Quote:
"If I were advising John Kerry, which I'm not, I'd say, 'Let's call Bush out. Let's challenge him to a debate.'" The subject: the military service records of John Kerry and George W. Bush.

When voters go to the polls in November, McMahon said, they won't be choosing between John Kerry and "Unfit for Command" author John O'Neill; they'll be choosing between Kerry and Bush. "The choice is between a guy who volunteered to serve, went to war, fought on the front line, took enemy fire, was highly decorated, and saved the life of at least one of the troops -- and a guy who did everything he could to avoid service, jumped over 500 people to get into the National Guard, didn't show up for service in Alabama, and can't prove he was there."

Like many other Democrats, McMahon is incredulous that -- in light of Bush's record -- Vietnam service is even an issue in the campaign. "It seems to me that the president has an awful lot of explaining to do, particularly because he can't produce a single person, he can't remember where he lived, he can't remember who he hug out with, the folks he went drinking with, the bars he hung out in, and we're expected to take seriously their allegations about how many bullets were flying one day in Vietnam?"

Wayne Slater isn't surprised at all. Slater, the veteran Dallas Morning News reporter who coauthored "Bush's Brain: How Karl Rove Made George W. Bush Presidential," said Tuesday that the Swift Boat Veterans attack was entirely predictable. Slater has watched Karl Rove work for nearly two decades, and he said the "mark of Rove" in a campaign is always the same: Aim nasty attacks right at your opponent's strength, but keep your own fingerprints off them.

It then talks about the 'rumor spreading' campaign about Ann Richards and gays that lost her the election
and the campaign that called into question McCain's sanity due to his war service.

when asked why democrats aren't attacking in this same manner Maslin has a good responce:
Quote:
"We've got a record of four years of George W. Bush, and that's plenty," he said. "I don't think we're out there digging for some hideous thing, because we don't need it."
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #149 of 166
This really is 'Saving Private W.'

The president gets called on to step up to the plate and say one way or another way he supports his friends' (rapidly deteriorating) smears on his opponent's military record.

And he just won't do it.

First, he sends out his chief spokesman to dodge the question.

Then he dodges the question.

And now, politically on the defensive, he calls another veteran and asks him to rush over to the ranch to face Max Cleland.

(It turns out that Patterson, the guy who got the 911 call from the president, has received $150,000 in campaign contributions from Bob Perry, the funder of the Swift Boat ads.)

Needless to say, the president doesn't have to play into the Kerry photo op by showing up to take Cleland's letter; a straight answer about the Swift Boat smears would do nicely.

But he just can't do it -- a classic bully.

-- Josh Marshall
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #150 of 166
more navy records turn up:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5818634
Quote:
The March 18, 1969, weekly report from Task Force 115, which was located by The Associated Press during a search of Navy archives, is the latest document to surface that supports Kerrys description of an event for which he won a Bronze Star and a third Purple Heart.

It's going to be interesting to see if the attack dogs press this issue, or back completely off, in their speeches at the RNC.
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post #151 of 166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
more navy records turn up:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5818634


It's going to be interesting to see if the attack dogs press this issue, or back completely off, in their speeches at the RNC.

For those of you fretting about the "liberal media", the article linked to above should serve as an object lesson:

The headline reads "Navy Records Appear to Support Kerry's Version"

Think about that. First of all, the records don't "appear" to support, they do.
Moreover, it never has been "Kerry's version", any more than putting a man on the moon is "NASA's version". It is the historical record, the one with the documentary evidence and the verification by the United States Navy. No evidence beyond here-say has been offered to offset this record.

And yet the "liberal" media are still behaving as if there is a "controversy" that remains to be resolved.

How about this: I happened to have lived in Alabama at the same time that George Bush was doing whatever he was doing there.

Now I could boldly assert that George Bush molested me. I have no doubt that I could round a group of liberal "Bush haters" from among my peers at the time to say likewise. If we had access to some money, we could even put together an ad where we solemnly, one at a time, appeared on screen to intone "George Bush is a child molester. I know. He molested me".

Now say it comes out that this story is pretty implausible. Say there is pretty solid evidence that George Bush and I were never in the same city.

Would you expect a newspaper to convey that by running a story headlined: "Geographical data seems to support Bush's version of molest controversy"?

In fact, would you really expect it to get any play whatsoever? Would you expect cable news shows to treat my charges as "explosive" even knowing that there wasn't a shred of evidence that this was true, beyond me and my friends say, and that indeed that all available documentary evidence showed it to be simply a lie?

Of course not. But then, that's the liberal media for you.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #152 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Here's a good article that shows that Kerry very probably and most likely was in Cambodia on Christmas Eve of 1968.

But this was all under orders that werre given behind Congress' back . . . but is now well known

HERE

.

Ah yes. Salon Magazine - it must be true.

It is funny how you guys will believe a reporter that writes for some left wing publication yet you refuse to believe people who were actually there. The Kerry camp has already backtracked on the Cambodia thing saying that he was there but it must have happened later. The guy was there for only four months! Is this memory of the incident that was "seared in him" that bad?

Kerry was never there. It is just another one of these stories he told for political purposes. Man, you guys are gullible...
post #153 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Adda,

I'm pretty much through wasting my time with you. You keep repeating the same charges that have been addressed ten different ways. You don't wish to see them in any other manner, so don't. At the end of every time you repeat this rant you also launch into personal attacks on my because I refuse to change my view for no other reason than you just repeat yourself. You've called me wrong on everything, a liar, and now amoral.

Obviously the moderation here is profoundly bias because I'm sure a pattern this clear with a conservative member would have resulted in a temp ban or thread lock. My threads have been locked for people like you attacking me in them. Both Scott and SDW have been temp banned. But people like you get to be wrong on an issue, repeat yourself ad infinitim without adding anything new, and then tack on a new personal attack each time you do.

You talk about the process being explained to me. I already knew the process and used it to point out how Kerry repeatedly requested his first purple heart. He kept requesting it until someone who was not his commanding officer and who saw the wound and knew of the actions related to it, gave it to him. Kerry hasn't released the paperwork surrounding it. I've pointed (twice) to the Naval Historical Center in Washington which has no paperwork on file for this purple heart. So you are completely lying. The paperwork doesn't support you. The people involved don't support you.

As for being amoral, it is contemporary liberalism that wishes to judge no one. Kerry is a coward who weaseled out of Vietnam, came back and made himself well known by accusing those still behind of war crimes and atrocities. He was married and while married committed adultery multiple times. He even gave (loaned) his campaign millions via his wife so that he could defeat better candidates.

It is you and others on the left that are amoral. Only you could call ok that a guy who used "loans" to beat a true anti-war candidate while claiming such status for himself despite voting for the action. You amorally watch as these Democrats kick and block Nader from getting on the ballot in state after state and call that fine because, hey Kerry's got to win no matter what the cost. You watch the Democrats run slushfund 527's where the rich get to spend millions influencing this election with no accountability. All to get a candidate in office who is going to drop corporate taxes lower while raising income taxes. You can claim it is only on the rich, I'll bet any amount of money you care to wager that if Kerry is elected he will raise them on everyone, even Social Security Income, just as Clinton did.

Amoral my ass. It is the Democrats who have a take no prisoners, anything is fine as long as it beats Bush attitude.

Last words on this, you are welcome to have the last word for the thread.

Nick

I could not agreee with you more trumptman. Yours is a very intelligent and reasoned post. I get tired of these bomb throwers in this forum who keep repeating the same lies over and over again and toss in a bunch of ugly personal attacks while they are at it. You all like John Kerry? Fine. But stick to the facts and cut the BS and the nasty personal attacks on those who disagree with you. I am very tired of your intellectually superior attitudes. Nothing you have said has and ever will be supported by the facts. All I have seen are arguments supported by flimsy circumstantial evidence. I will be more than willing to listen if you ever get past that stage but I have yet to see your arguments advance past that level. So in a way I am very disappointed that all you intellectuals have been unable to come up with something better...
post #154 of 166
This is the sickest election I've ever witnessed... anywhere...

Isn't the politics relevant at all? And you're supposed to be the leaders of the free world. Promoters of democracy?

This is so shamefull. I bet totalitarian regimes everywhere are lauging their asses of right now. Is there no decency left? There used to be.
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #155 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by 7E7
Ah yes. Salon Magazine - it must be true.

It is funny how you guys will believe a reporter that writes for some left wing publication yet you refuse to believe people who were actually there. The Kerry camp has already backtracked on the Cambodia thing saying that he was there but it must have happened later. The guy was there for only four months! Is this memory of the incident that was "seared in him" that bad?

Kerry was never there. It is just another one of these stories he told for political purposes. Man, you guys are gullible...

You moron . . . that wasn't even a link to Salon, you didn't even look at the link . . . you fraud . . . go away!!!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #156 of 166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by 7E7
I could not agreee with you more trumptman. Yours is a very intelligent and reasoned post. I get tired of these bomb throwers in this forum who keep repeating the same lies over and over again and toss in a bunch of ugly personal attacks while they are at it. You all like John Kerry? Fine. But stick to the facts and cut the BS and the nasty personal attacks on those who disagree with you. I am very tired of your intellectually superior attitudes. Nothing you have said has and ever will be supported by the facts. All I have seen are arguments supported by flimsy circumstantial evidence. I will be more than willing to listen if you ever get past that stage but I have yet to see your arguments advance past that level. So in a way I am very disappointed that all you intellectuals have been unable to come up with something better...

(good witch of the west voice) Be gone, troll! You have no power here!
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #157 of 166
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #158 of 166
Quote:

Link's messed up.

[edit] nevermind (Gilda Radner voice from the classic SNL).

[edit edit] Too F'n funny. One degree of seperation. I loved it it was better than cats. I will see it again and again.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #159 of 166
You're mock outrage over Kerry's military service can bit me:

CBS

If you had any thought that the first presidential campaign after 9/11 would be especially sober and responsible, give it up.

There are a million angles to the saga of John Kerry and his swift boat enemies and none of them reveal anything virtuous about politics. But one element that is missing from this story is surprise.

Any student of Bush family campaigns could have seen the swift boat shiv shining a mile away. This old family has traditions horseshoes, fishing, bad syntax and having the help do the dirty work in campaigns as well as the kitchen. And they are very good at getting jobs done without leaving fingerprints, without compromising their patrician image and their alleged character.

Even the audaciousness of this years episode is not surprising. Who would have believed that George Bush, with all the trouble over his National Guard service, could get John Kerry in hot water for his combat duty and medals in Vietnam? Well, anyone who saw what George Bush did to former POW John McCain in the 2000 primaries, which was even more outrageous.

The ancestral origin of Bush family gut fighting came in George H. W. Bushs 1988 campaign against Michael Dukakis in the form of the infamous Willie Horton ad. (Historical footnote: Horton actually went by William, not Willie, and is referred as William in all legal documents; the ad makers thought Willie sounded scarier and blacker.)

That ad was produced by an outfit allegedly independent of the official campaign. It wasnt aired on TV much but got most of its play in the press. Papa Bush and his official staff maintained they knew nothing about such déclassé skullduggery. There was nothing blatantly untrue about the ad, but it was hugely misleading and subtly racist.

The ad also attacked Dukakis right where he was supposed to be strongest. If the Duke had a strength (a big if), it was as a highly competent government CEO who led the Massachusetts Miracle. The ad gave an emotional snapshot of a guy whose incompetence let a killer out of jail so he could commit assault and rape. It worked.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #160 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
You moron . . . that wasn't even a link to Salon, you didn't even look at the link . . . you fraud . . . go away!!!

My bad. SLATE MAGAZINE. Pretty much the same thing though...

Will you forgive me? I did read the article but screwed up on the name of the source. Sorry...
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