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swift boat liars running aground - Page 2

post #41 of 166
So, Peter Lewis and George Soros gave money to MoveOn?
*ghasp!
and they also gave money to various Democrats
*ghasp!

So far this is guilt by association and proves nothing!
except that there are some rich people who don't buy the Republican bullshiit!!

It is different than being a member of a group that pretends to be objective with regards to outright slander while really being a tried-and-true and long time Republican party player

You can twist your third party association, which merely show that there are some big donor Democrats, but, the difference between that and pretending to be a mere 'soldier-for-the-truth' while really being a complete neck-deep partisan-blinkered player is too great a difference to pretend . . give up.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #42 of 166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
What flavor Kool-Aid is again?

Water flavor. As in uninflected. True. A fact. Remember those? It's what we used to rely on to form a coherent view of the world.

As opposed to the world you and your friends yearn for, where mindless "my team-ism" trumps every principle, objective, moral stance, pragmatic solution, simple decency and evidence at hand.

You know, the world where a decorated war hero running against a guy who couldn't be bothered to show up for cushy guard duty somehow ends up having to defend himself against charges of cowardliness and grandstanding while an unnecessary war grinds away at American lives and health care drifts out of reach for more and more Americans and a vast, all consuming deficit will cripple our children's hope of using government as a tool for betterment.

But you dig all that, right, cause your a.... um......patriot.

As in, "I want my guy to win and I don't really give a shit what it means for my country or what damage his people do getting him into office, I just love it when the people I argue against get beat up."

Hooray for the patriots. God help us all.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #43 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
So, Peter Lewis and George Soros gave money to MoveOn?
*ghasp!
and they also gave money to various Democrats
*ghasp!

So far this is guilt by association and proves nothing!
except that there are some rich people who don't buy the Republican bullshiit!!

It is different than being a member of a group that pretends to be objective with regards to outright slander while really being a tried-and-true and long time Republican party player

You can twist your third party association, which merely show that there are some big donor Democrats, but, the difference between that and pretending to be a mere 'soldier-for-the-truth' while really being a complete neck-deep partisan-blinkered player is too great a difference to pretend . . give up.

First you should admit that you claimed that I wouldn't find proof of 527/Democratic party association via large donors. I not only found it and provided proof, I did so to a much larger degree than occurs on the Republican side.

So now it is time to change the question. Now it isn't about money, it is about objectivity. You are saying Moveon.org doesn't pretend to be objective?

This is from their website.

Quote:
What is MoveOn all about?
MoveOn is working to bring ordinary people back into politics. With a system that today revolves around big money and big media, most citizens are left out. When it becomes clear that our "representatives" don't represent the public, the foundations of democracy are in peril. MoveOn is a catalyst for a new kind of grassroots involvement, supporting busy but concerned citizens in finding their political voice. Our nationwide network of more than 2,000,000 online activists is one of the most effective and responsive outlets for democratic participation available today.

What does MoveOn do?
When there is a disconnect between broad public opinion and legislative action, MoveOn builds electronic advocacy groups. Examples of such issues are campaign finance, environmental and energy issues, media consolidation, or the Iraq war. Once a group is assembled, MoveOn provides information and tools to help each individual have the greatest possible impact.


MoveOn is working to bring ordinary people back into politics. With a system that today revolves around big money and big media, most citizens are left out. When it becomes clear that our "representatives" don't represent the public, the foundations of democracy are in peril. MoveOn is a catalyst for a new kind of grassroots involvement, supporting busy but concerned citizens in finding their political voice. Our nationwide network of more than 2,000,000 online activists is one of the most effective and responsive outlets for democratic participation available today.

Anything in there about the Democratic Party? How about just defeating President Bush. How about just anything about those who supported the war in Iraq or anything else?

If anything the level of hypocrisy around moveon.org is huge since instead of acting as a grassroots organization, it has obviously become a front group for large donors to attack the president. Their donations, ads and other activities reflect that exclusively.

But as for it not proving anything, it proves just as much as the Times article does regarding Bush and Swift Boats. You say who cares, it just proves there are some large donors who don't buy the Republican party BS. Why is this not true in reverse. Especially with a much smaller group who have ads and issues that actually address their stated purpose and much smaller donations that reflect an appropriate amount to address that issue. (Gee do we really believe that grassroots organizations need $20 million or so dollars to electronically organize?)

But the weirdest part about all the Democratic 527's is how they appear to be laundering their money by giving it too each other repeatedly. On top of that, they are tax exempt organizations who are dealing with millions of dollars. According to OpenSecrets.org, over 100 million of this money has not been coded and assigned with regard to how it has been spent.

Come on Pfflam. You want to bash on SwiftBoats for running ads questioning a man who came home and testified AGAINST his fellow service personnel. The motive to counter that is clear. Additionally Kerry released a book he endorsed and contributed his own journals to in January of this year that made false claims against the men involved in that organization. The amount of money they have and have spent is miniscule, but appropriate for attempting to counter a national candidate for office on ONE issue.

Yet you see nothing wrong with donors, who have donated large amounts of money to the most power people in the Democratic party, have donated MILLIONS (up to 100 million) in soft money to 527's who have then donated it to each other repeatedly and have made it disappear with no accounting codes or means of showing what it has been spent on.

Pfflam, I've said I don't like 527's regardless of party. I've said all along that they smell like bad news and basically create shadow organizations that can do what political parties cannot. It is the reason that I do not support any limits on political speech with regard to candidates and their parties. At least with the actual candidate and party, we know who to hold responsible. Now with these 527's we have no ideal.

Can you at least admit that $100 million unaccounted for, $200 million donated and then shuffled repeatedly among these groups at least looks very bad?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #44 of 166
Uh-Oh spaghetti-o's... A vet has broken a 35 year silent to BACK KERRY.

Here's the Chicago Tribute (the liberal shills they are) article:

Quote:
Anti-Kerry vets not there that day

By William B. Rood
Chicago Tribune
Published August 21, 2004

There were three swift boats on the river that day in Vietnam more than 35 years agothree officers and 15 crew members. Only two of those officers remain to talk about what happened on February 28, 1969.

One is John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate who won a Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other.

For years, no one asked about those events. But now they are the focus of skirmishing in a presidential election with a group of swift boat veterans and others contending that Kerry didn't deserve the Silver Star for what he did on that day, or the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts he was awarded for other actions.

Many of us wanted to put it all behind usthe rivers, the ambushes, the killing. Ever since that time, I have refused all requests for interviews about Kerry's serviceeven those from reporters at the Chicago Tribune, where I work.

But Kerry's critics, armed with stories I know to be untrue, have charged that the accounts of what happened were overblown. The critics have taken pains to say they're not trying to cast doubts on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on all of us. It's gotten harder and harder for those of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come from people who were not there.

Even though Kerry's own crew members have backed him, the attacks have continued, and in recent days Kerry has called me and others who were with him in those days, asking that we go public with our accounts.

I can't pretend those calls had no effect on me, but that is not why I am writing this. What matters most to me is that this is hurting crewmen who are not public figures and who deserved to be honored for what they did. My intent is to tell the story here and to never again talk publicly about it.

I was part of the operation that led to Kerry's Silver Star. I have no firsthand knowledge of the events that resulted in his winning the Purple Hearts or the Bronze Star.

But on Feb. 28, 1969, I was officer in charge of PCF-23, one of three swift boatsincluding Kerry's PCF-94 and Lt. j.g. Donald Droz's PCF-43that carried Vietnamese regional and Popular Force troops and a Navy demolition team up the Dong Cung, a narrow tributary of the Bay Hap River, to conduct a sweep in the area.

The approach of the noisy 50-foot aluminum boats, each driven by two huge 12-cylinder diesels and loaded down with six crew members, troops and gear, was no secret.

Ambushes were a virtual certainty, and that day was no exception.

Instructions from Kerry

The difference was that Kerry, who had tactical command of that particular operation, had talked to Droz and me beforehand about not responding the way the boats usually did to an ambush.

We agreed that if we were not crippled by the initial volley and had a clear fix on the location of the ambush, we would turn directly into it, focusing the boats' twin .50-caliber machine guns on the attackers and beaching the boats. We told our crews about the plan.

The Viet Cong in the area had come to expect that the heavily loaded boats would lumber on past an ambush, firing at the entrenched attackers, beaching upstream and putting troops ashore to sweep back down on the ambush site. Often, they were long gone by the time the troops got there.

The first time we took firethe usual rockets and automatic weaponsKerry ordered a "turn 90" and the three boats roared in on the ambush. It worked. We routed the ambush, killing three of the attackers. The troops, led by an Army adviser, jumped off the boats and began a sweep, which killed another half dozen VC, wounded or captured others and found weapons, blast masks and other supplies used to stage ambushes.

Meanwhile, Kerry ordered our boat to head upstream with his, leaving Droz's boat at the first site.

It happened again, another ambush. And again, Kerry ordered the turn maneuver, and again it worked. As we headed for the riverbank, I remember seeing a loaded B-40 launcher pointed at the boats. It wasn't fired as two men jumped up from their spider holes.

We called Droz's boat up to assist us, and Kerry, followed by one member of his crew, jumped ashore and chased a VC behind a hoocha thatched hutmaybe 15 yards inland from the ambush site. Some who were there that day recall the man being wounded as he ran. Neither I nor Jerry Leeds, our boat's leading petty officer with whom I've checked my recollection of all these events, recalls that, which is no surprise. Recollections of those who go through experiences like that frequently differ.

With our troops involved in the sweep of the first ambush site, Richard Lamberson, a member of my crew, and I also went ashore to search the area. I was checking out the inside of the hooch when I heard gunfire nearby.

Not long after that, Kerry returned, reporting that he had killed the man he chased behind the hooch. He also had picked up a loaded B-40 rocket launcher, which we took back to our base in An Thoi after the operation.

John O'Neill, author of a highly critical account of Kerry's Vietnam service, describes the man Kerry chased as a "teenager" in a "loincloth." I have no idea how old the gunner Kerry chased that day was, but both Leeds and I recall that he was a grown man, dressed in the kind of garb the VC usually wore.

The man Kerry chased was not the "lone" attacker at that site, as O'Neill suggests. There were others who fled. There was also firing from the tree line well behind the spider holes and at one point, from the opposite riverbank as well. It was not the work of just one attacker.

Our initial reports of the day's action caused an immediate response from our task force headquarters in Cam Ranh Bay.

Congratulatory message

Known over radio circuits by the call sign "Latch," then-Capt. and now retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann, the task force commander, fired off a message congratulating the three swift boats, saying at one point that the tactic of charging the ambushes was a "shining example of completely overwhelming the enemy" and that it "may be the most efficacious method of dealing with small numbers of ambushers."

Hoffmann has become a leading critic of Kerry's and now says that what the boats did on that day demonstrated Kerry's inclination to be impulsive to a fault.

Our decision to use that tactic under the right circumstances was not impulsive but was the result of discussions well beforehand and a mutual agreement of all three boat officers.

It was also well within the aggressive tradition that was embraced by the late Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, then commander of U.S. Naval Forces, Vietnam. Months before that day in February, a fellow boat officer, Michael Bernique, was summoned to Saigon to explain to top Navy commanders why he had made an unauthorized run up the Giang Thanh River, which runs along the Vietnam-Cambodia border. Bernique, who speaks French fluently, had been told by a source in Ha Tien at the mouth of the river that a VC tax collector was operating upstream.

Ignoring the prohibition against it, Bernique and his crew went upstream and routed the VC, pursuing and killing several.

Instead of facing disciplinary action as he had expected, Bernique was given the Silver Star, and Zumwalt ordered other swifts, which had largely patrolled coastal waters, into the rivers.

The decision sent a clear message, underscored repeatedly by Hoffmann's congratulatory messages, that aggressive patrolling was expected and that well-timed, if unconventional, tactics like Bernique's were encouraged.

What we did on Feb. 28, 1969, was well in line with the tone set by our top commanders.

Zumwalt made that clear when he flew down to our base at An Thoi off the southern tip of Vietnam to pin the Silver Star on Kerry and assorted Bronze Stars and commendation medals on the rest of us.

Error in citation

My Bronze Star citation, signed by Zumwalt, praised the charge tactic we used that day, saying the VC were "caught completely off guard."

There's at least one mistake in that citation. It incorrectly identifies the river where the main action occurred, a reminder that such documents were often done in haste and sometimes authored for their signers by staffers. It's a cautionary note for those trying to piece it all together. There's no final authority on something that happened so long agonot the documents and not even the strained recollections of those of us who were there.

But I know that what some people are saying now is wrong. While they mean to hurt Kerry, what they're saying impugns others who are not in the public eye.

Men like Larry Lee, who was on our bow with an M-60 machine gun as we charged the riverbank, Kenneth Martin, who was in the .50-caliber gun tub atop our boat, and Benjamin Cueva, our engineman, who was at our aft gun mount suppressing the fire from the opposite bank.

Wayne Langhoffer and the other crewmen on Droz's boat went through even worse on April 12, 1969, when they saw Droz killed in a brutal ambush that left PCF-43 an abandoned pile of wreckage on the banks of the Duong Keo River. That was just a few months after the birth of his only child, Tracy.

The survivors of all these events are scattered across the country now.

Jerry Leeds lives in a tiny Kansas town where he built and sold a successful printing business. He owns a beautiful home with a lawn that sweeps to the edge of a small lake, which he also owns. Every year, flights of purple martins return to the stately birdhouses on the tall poles in his back yard.

Cueva, recently retired, has raised three daughters and is beloved by his neighbors for all the years he spent keeping their cars running. Lee is a senior computer programmer in Kentucky, and Lamberson finished a second military career in the Army.

With the debate over that long-ago day in February, they're all living that war another time.

Copyright © 2004, Chicago Tribune

source Requires registration to see for yourself.


So with that, I bid the Bush shills a good day.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #45 of 166
Member of Bush Steering Comittee must quit because of Role In SBV4T Lies

Whata surprise . . . he is (er . . .was) part of the official Bush PR Machine!

From the article:
Quote:
Ken Cordier was a Bush supporter during the 2000 election and served as a member of his a steering committee to help reach out to veterans during this election.

and it gets better:
Quote:
The disclosure of Cordier's involvement came one day after White House spokesman Scott McClellan and Bush campaign chairman Marc Racicot denied the campaign coordinated with the group on the ads, which claim that Kerry lied about his Vietnam War service.

How can anybody still trust these bungling criminals controlling our government?!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #46 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
How can anybody still trust these bungling criminals controlling our government?!

Because they're selectively ignorant.
post #47 of 166
Pro-Bushies, do you want to continue dredging up these old vets who never served with Kerry or do you want to start addressing real issues?
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #48 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
Because they're selectively ignorant.

How extremely generous of you to just call them selectively ignorant. You're a good man tonton.

Back on topic, this just keeps getting better. From ridiculous to a travesty and a sham. I hope it keeps going so that the whole country can laugh at these clowns.
post #49 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
Because they're selectively ignorant.

I point to $200 million of money donated to Democratic causes from a very small number of powerful people of which $100 million is unaccounted for and you talk about selective ignorance?

Pfflam still never mentioned that I found exactly what he asked for. Selective ignorance?

Quote:
Pro-Bushies, do you want to continue dredging up these old vets who never served with Kerry or do you want to start addressing real issues?

Ask Kerry. He's the one who's newest ad features what he did on a swift boat 30+ years ago.

Quote:
Back on topic, this just keeps getting better. From ridiculous to a travesty and a sham. I hope it keeps going so that the whole country can laugh at these clowns.

Back on topic, I think it will be interesting to see these 527's investigated and have it found that many democratic affiliated ones act like criminal organization that launder money and spend it with no accountability.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #50 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
I point to $200 million of money donated to Democratic causes from a very small number of powerful people of which $100 million is unaccounted for and you talk about selective ignorance?

You point to something else so you don't have to admit the truth that's been revealed here. It's pathetic.

Will you or will you not admit that Kerry deserved his Silver Star and that the book by the 'swift boat liars' is full of crap?
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #51 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Water flavor. As in uninflected. True. A fact. Remember those? It's what we used to rely on to form a coherent view of the world.

As opposed to the world you and your friends yearn for, where mindless "my team-ism" trumps every principle, objective, moral stance, pragmatic solution, simple decency and evidence at hand.

You know, the world where a decorated war hero running against a guy who couldn't be bothered to show up for cushy guard duty somehow ends up having to defend himself against charges of cowardliness and grandstanding while an unnecessary war grinds away at American lives and health care drifts out of reach for more and more Americans and a vast, all consuming deficit will cripple our children's hope of using government as a tool for betterment.

But you dig all that, right, cause your a.... um......patriot.

As in, "I want my guy to win and I don't really give a shit what it means for my country or what damage his people do getting him into office, I just love it when the people I argue against get beat up."

Hooray for the patriots. God help us all.

Absolutely hysterical post. "Decorated War Hero".
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #52 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
So, Peter Lewis and George Soros gave money to MoveOn?
*ghasp!
and they also gave money to various Democrats
*ghasp!

So far this is guilt by association and proves nothing!
except that there are some rich people who don't buy the Republican bullshiit!!

It is different than being a member of a group that pretends to be objective with regards to outright slander while really being a tried-and-true and long time Republican party player

You can twist your third party association, which merely show that there are some big donor Democrats, but, the difference between that and pretending to be a mere 'soldier-for-the-truth' while really being a complete neck-deep partisan-blinkered player is too great a difference to pretend . . give up.

Riiiight, pfflam. MoveOn isn't tied to Kerry? They're not running candidate specific ads?
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #53 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
You point to something else so you don't have to admit the truth that's been revealed here. It's pathetic.

Will you or will you not admit that Kerry deserved his Silver Star and that the book by the 'swift boat liars' is full of crap?

I'll admit exactly what I posted. That Kerry's account differs from that of the three other commanders. I've not claimed that the differences were enough to not warrent the silver star. I've started threads about the first purple heat which to me is the only clear medal that is in dispute.

But the reality is that Kerry has people who he defamed in his book, who he claimed committed war crimes, and at the same time made his own actions appear like Rambo in a Hollywood movie. This group fights back against that, and they are well justified in doing so.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #54 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Absolutely hysterical post. "Decorated War Hero".

He is a decorated war hero. I suppose you're complaining about the 'hero' word because he's a democrat.

And Bush shirked out completely. He's a chicken. Which you don't mind because he's a republican.
meh
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post #55 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Pro-Bushies, do you want to continue dredging up these old vets who never served with Kerry or do you want to start addressing real issues?

They cant address the issues of ( TODAY ) because Bush has such a poor record on domestic issues, Bush's only hope is to distract,distort,spin and lie to win election just as this was his tactics for defeating Mccain and the same tactics for going into Iraq. 200 billion U.S tax payer dollars,1,000 american lives and counting and the quagmire continues. Im glad my son isnt old enough to die for his B.S.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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post #56 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
They cant address the issues of ( TODAY ) because Bush has such a poor record on domestic issues, Bush's only hope is to distract,distort,spin and lie to win election just as this was his tactics for defeating Mccain and the same tactics for going into Iraq. 200 billion U.S tax payer dollars,1,000 american lives and counting and the quagmire continues. Im glad my son isnt old enough to die for his B.S.

Aurora, you bring up a good point. If Kerry is so strong and Bush so weak on domestic issues, then why does Kerry even pay attention to these matters?

Why is Kerry starting his convention speech with "reporting for duty" and spending the majority of his time portraying himself as a war hero instead of talking about his agenda?

Of course the reality COULD be, that his agenda is corporate tax cuts, individual income tax INCREASES, ignoring unions, doing nothing on immigration, and of course doing nothing different than Bush with regard to terror and Iraq.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #57 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Absolutely hysterical post. "Decorated War Hero".

Absolutely pathetic that you could only respond to the post by mocking those three words. Why not address the post itself? Or does it hit too close to the blind partisan yay-team corner you live in?

Great post by the way, addabox.
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post #58 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Aurora, you bring up a good point. If Kerry is so strong and Bush so weak on domestic issues, then why does Kerry even pay attention to these matters?

Why is Kerry starting his convention speech with "reporting for duty" and spending the majority of his time portraying himself as a war hero instead of talking about his agenda?

Of course the reality COULD be, that his agenda is corporate tax cuts, individual income tax INCREASES, ignoring unions, doing nothing on immigration, and of course doing nothing different than Bush with regard to terror and Iraq.

Nick

Kerry has stated to decrease taxes on the middle class and raise them for those making over $200,000 a year. i have no problem with that and even embrace it. Iam not a Demo and never have been in fact i almost have allways voted Republican. But when i see all the bad things Bush/Cheney have done there is only 1 answer. get someone else in there why we still have a democracy.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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post #59 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Absolutely hysterical post. "Decorated War Hero".


Listen I saw Bush's campaign manager on CNN today saying that they condem those ads. Of course there was Kerry's manager that said Bush hasn't done that publicly. When asked " He just smirks and walks away ".

Dirty politics by Bush at it's worst!

Another example of Bush dishonesty.

By the way......

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...oat/index.html

After all the examples of dishonesty concerning Bush I just don't see how anyone could vote for him.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #60 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
Kerry has stated to decrease taxes on the middle class and raise them for those making over $200,000 a year. i have no problem with that and even embrace it. Iam not a Demo and never have been in fact i almost have allways voted Republican. But when i see all the bad things Bush/Cheney have done there is only 1 answer. get someone else in there why we still have a democracy.

I know what he has stated but you have to look at what he has promised in spending as well. The rollback of the tax cut for those above $200k a year will yield about $40-60 billion a year of increased tax revenue. (That is the problem with issues like this, the number of people are so small, that the returns are as well)

However Kerry has also promised about $200 billion more in spending ABOVE what Bush is spending. Where do you think that money is going to come from?

Look into the past a bit to get a clue on what Kerry will do. Clinton promised that he would only "make the wealthy pay their fair share." He then enacted, with Kerry's supporting vote, the largest middle class tax increase in history.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #61 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
I know what he has stated but you have to look at what he has promised in spending as well. The rollback of the tax cut for those above $200k a year will yield about $40-60 billion a year of increased tax revenue. (That is the problem with issues like this, the number of people are so small, that the returns are as well)

However Kerry has also promised about $200 billion more in spending ABOVE what Bush is spending. Where do you think that money is going to come from?

Look into the past a bit to get a clue on what Kerry will do. Clinton promised that he would only "make the wealthy pay their fair share." He then enacted, with Kerry's supporting vote, the largest middle class tax increase in history.

Nick

I just love made-up numbers. Without citation the above are nothing more than the ramblings of a teacher not in a position to make such estimates.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #62 of 166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
I know what he has stated but you have to look at what he has promised in spending as well. The rollback of the tax cut for those above $200k a year will yield about $40-60 billion a year of increased tax revenue. (That is the problem with issues like this, the number of people are so small, that the returns are as well)

However Kerry has also promised about $200 billion more in spending ABOVE what Bush is spending. Where do you think that money is going to come from?

Look into the past a bit to get a clue on what Kerry will do. Clinton promised that he would only "make the wealthy pay their fair share." He then enacted, with Kerry's supporting vote, the largest middle class tax increase in history.

Nick

Yeah, those Clinton years were brutal. He taxed us into 8 years of unprecedented prosperity...
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #63 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Look into the past a bit to get a clue on what Kerry will do. Clinton promised that he would only "make the wealthy pay their fair share." He then enacted, with Kerry's supporting vote, the largest middle class tax increase in history.

Nick

I agree they should look into the past. The Bush and Reagan "tax cuts plus spending increases" policies result in huge deficits. The Clinton approach results in surpluses.

In any case, Clinton gave a net middle class tax cut, not increase, by increasing the child tax credit. He raised taxes on the high end. This is basically the same thing Kerry is proposing.
post #64 of 166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Aurora, you bring up a good point. If Kerry is so strong and Bush so weak on domestic issues, then why does Kerry even pay attention to these matters?

Why is Kerry starting his convention speech with "reporting for duty" and spending the majority of his time portraying himself as a war hero instead of talking about his agenda?

Of course the reality COULD be, that his agenda is corporate tax cuts, individual income tax INCREASES, ignoring unions, doing nothing on immigration, and of course doing nothing different than Bush with regard to terror and Iraq.

Nick

Stupidly disingenuous, even for you.

Kerry stressed his war record at the convention as an obvious way to counter the usual "democrats are pussies" stuff the republicans habitually traffic in.

Since then, he has been obliged to address the attacks on his war record, because of the constant, scurrilous attacks.

And they are scurrilous attacks. You know it. I know it. They are not "legitimate questions about Kerry's service record that are inevitable because he's the one that brought it up". We both know that Karl Rove is on record as believing the best way to go after an opponent is to attack their perceived strongest quality.

And now you want to stand back and wonder why he doesn't talk more about his domestic agenda?

Jesus, Nick, get a grip.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #65 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
He is a decorated war hero. I suppose you're complaining about the 'hero' word because he's a democrat.

And Bush shirked out completely. He's a chicken. Which you don't mind because he's a republican.

Kerry had minor wounds fo which earned three purple hearts. He then came back to the states and admitted comitting war crimes on TV. He also accused his former comrades of the same. He supposedly threw away his medals (until the political tides changed). He reenacted combat footage after his tour of duty of a whopping four months was over. Most of the men Kerry served with do not support him, Republican connections or not.

War Hero?
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #66 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Most of the men Kerry served with do not support him, Republican connections or not.

War Hero?

Yes, according to John McCain. While he supports Bush in the election like a good party boy, he has publically spoken out against the swift boat attacks, and against Bush for not denouncing them.

I suppose you will claim that McCain is not a war hero either? Or that he didn't serve in the same war that Kerry did?
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post #67 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Absolutely pathetic that you could only respond to the post by mocking those three words. Why not address the post itself? Or does it hit too close to the blind partisan yay-team corner you live in?

Great post by the way, addabox.

see above.

addabox:

Quote:
Stupidly disingenuous, even for you.

Kerry stressed his war record at the convention as an obvious way to counter the usual "democrats are pussies" stuff the republicans habitually traffic in.

Since then, he has been obliged to address the attacks on his war record, because of the constant, scurrilous attacks.

And they are scurrilous attacks. You know it. I know it. They are not "legitimate questions about Kerry's service record that are inevitable because he's the one that brought it up". We both know that Karl Rove is on record as believing the best way to go after an opponent is to attack their perceived strongest quality.

And now you want to stand back and wonder why he doesn't talk more about his domestic agenda?

Jesus, Nick, get a grip.

Except...Kerrry did bring it up. I'd like some answers to those questions, legitimate or not. Why reenact footage? Why throw away your medals only to find them again? Why participate in a meeting to plot the assasination of US senators to stop the war? Why admit comitting war crimes on TV?

BRussell:





Quote:
agree they should look into the past. The Bush and Reagan "tax cuts plus spending increases" policies result in huge deficits. The Clinton approach results in surpluses.

In any case, Clinton gave a net middle class tax cut, not increase, by increasing the child tax credit. He raised taxes on the high end. This is basically the same thing Kerry is proposing.

Jesus, now you're drinking the Clinton Kool-Aid as well.

Taxes on the middle class went up in more ways than one. Clinton supported many different kinds of taxes. Perhaps you haven't look at things like your telephone bill recently. That was mostly Clinton's work. He raised marginal rates on the middle class extensively. The child credit does not compensate for this. What about people with no children? How is that you can give Clinton credit for an economy thriving on the business cycle, new markets in technology, and the internet bubble? How can you give Clinton credit for balancing the budget, when it is in fact the Republican Congress that did so?

addabox:

Quote:
Yeah, those Clinton years were brutal. He taxed us into 8 years of unprecedented prosperity...

Revisionist history. The economy didn't really get moving until 1996 and wasn't booming until 1998.

jimmac;


Quote:
Listen I saw Bush's campaign manager on CNN today saying that they condem those ads. Of course there was Kerry's manager that said Bush hasn't done that publicly. When asked " He just smirks and walks away ".

Dirty politics by Bush at it's worst!

Another example of Bush dishonesty.

By the way......

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS...boat/index.html

After all the examples of dishonesty concerning Bush I just don't see how anyone could vote for him.

When Kerry comes out and slams the ridiculous Media Fund and MoveOn.org, I'll ask Bush to do the same with the Swift Boat group.

I assume you are ware that Bush has essentially condemned ALL 527s?
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #68 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
I just love made-up numbers. Without citation the above are nothing more than the ramblings of a teacher not in a position to make such estimates.

If you can refute Trumptman's claims, then do so.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #69 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
Kerry has stated to decrease taxes on the middle class and raise them for those making over $200,000 a year. i have no problem with that and even embrace it. Iam not a Demo and never have been in fact i almost have allways voted Republican. But when i see all the bad things Bush/Cheney have done there is only 1 answer. get someone else in there why we still have a democracy.

That philosophy might sound good, but it's wrong. The "rich" have a right to their money, just like you an I do. It won't help the bottom line anyway, as trumptman claims.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #70 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
If you can refute Trumptman's claims, then do so.

It's not my responsability to refute them. He made the claims, it's up to him to support them. Any high school who's written an english paper knows this.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #71 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
I just love made-up numbers. Without citation the above are nothing more than the ramblings of a teacher not in a position to make such estimates.

I'll tell you what faust, if you don't like my numbers, you are welcome to post and cite your own.

NTU.org

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #72 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Yeah, those Clinton years were brutal. He taxed us into 8 years of unprecedented prosperity...

Well actually it is just the eyes of the beholder I suppose.

What was the unemployment rate in 1996 when Clinton was running for re-election? 5.5%.

But when Clinton is running for reelection with 5.5%, it is "unprecidented proseperity." When Bush is running for reeelection with the unemployment rate at 5.5%, the economy is "in the toilet."

Also never mind that for 6 of Clinton's 8 years in office. He had a Republican Congress.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #73 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
That philosophy might sound good, but it's wrong. The "rich" have a right to their money, just like you an I do. It won't help the bottom line anyway, as trumptman claims.

No one's saying the rich don't have a right to their money; however, or economy is driven by the spending habits of the middle class. Taxing the rich 3% more to lessen the burden on the middle allowing them to put more money into the economy is not a wrong idea would you agree? We live in a market driven system so keeping the market as lively as possible is more important than 3%... PS the CBO just came out with a report saying the tax cuts help the middle class nominally (the one's who drive the economy) while returning substantial monies to the top 1%. Go figure. http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=5966706

[see, I made a claim and supported it myself. I didn't ask you to refute my claim when I myself supplied no proof. you can refute this if you want--feel free--but the point is I backed my own claim as I should have.]
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #74 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
I'll tell you what faust, if you don't like my numbers, you are welcome to post and cite your own.

NTU.org

Nick

Again Nick, you never supplied a source to begin with.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #75 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I agree they should look into the past. The Bush and Reagan "tax cuts plus spending increases" policies result in huge deficits. The Clinton approach results in surpluses.

In any case, Clinton gave a net middle class tax cut, not increase, by increasing the child tax credit. He raised taxes on the high end. This is basically the same thing Kerry is proposing.

Actually if Clinton has shown anything, it is that you cannot narrow the tax base too much or else small economic changes create huge problems in the budget. I'll gladly admit that Bush has not addressed this issue, but we have heard some rumblings of VAT's or national sales taxes that would definately widen the tax base.

As you mentioned Clinton raised taxes on pretty much everyone and then gave back targeted tax cuts. It was a very smart way of taking people's money without them being smart enough to resent it. So I'll give him credit for broadening the tax base and say that Bush or Kerry need to do the same.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #76 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Again Nick, you never supplied a source to begin with.

You asked, I provided. Now either refute them or be quiet.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #77 of 166
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Stupidly disingenuous, even for you.

Kerry stressed his war record at the convention as an obvious way to counter the usual "democrats are pussies" stuff the republicans habitually traffic in.

Since then, he has been obliged to address the attacks on his war record, because of the constant, scurrilous attacks.

And they are scurrilous attacks. You know it. I know it. They are not "legitimate questions about Kerry's service record that are inevitable because he's the one that brought it up". We both know that Karl Rove is on record as believing the best way to go after an opponent is to attack their perceived strongest quality.

And now you want to stand back and wonder why he doesn't talk more about his domestic agenda?

Jesus, Nick, get a grip.

Please put down the crack pipe.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #78 of 166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Kerry had minor wounds fo which earned three purple hearts. He then came back to the states and admitted comitting war crimes on TV. He also accused his former comrades of the same. He supposedly threw away his medals (until the political tides changed). He reenacted combat footage after his tour of duty of a whopping four months was over. Most of the men Kerry served with do not support him, Republican connections or not.

War Hero?

Now I wonder why you're deliberately repeating what I have to assume you know are lies.... unless you really really really can't distinguish between lies and truth.

"Minor wounds" describes the basis for any number Purple Hearts awarded in combat, including Bob Doles first, wherein he received "scratches" from a grenade that bounced off a tree (self inflicted, i suppose).

Kerry never "accused" his comrades of atrocities. He read the testimony of fellow veterans who admitted, with great sorrow and emotional turmoil, to having performed acts that haunted them.

The whole "reenacted combat footage" is an outrageous lie, and I have pointed that out to you before. This fits a pattern of yours where you consistently repeat proven lies in your posts. Why? Does aligning yourself with congenital liars erode your sense of truth?

Most of the men Kerry actually served with do support him. There are quite a few additional veterans who were in Vietnam at the same time who hate him for going against the war after he got back. That is their right, but claiming that they have some insight into Kerry's conduct in Vietnam is bullshit.

Please stop lying. It doesn't not further the thread here, and it doesn't further the political debate in America.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #79 of 166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Please put down the crack pipe.

Nick

Not really a refutation of my point, is it?

You've aligned yourself with some pretty nasty shit, this time.

Going on about "legitimate questions" is, well, as I way, disingenuous.

Might want to take a look at this editorial in the Boston Globe.

Quote:
IMAGINE IF supporters of Bill Clinton had tried in 1996 to besmirch the military record of his opponent, Bob Dole. After all, Dole was given a Purple Heart for a leg scratch probably caused, according to one biographer, when a hand grenade thrown by one of his own men bounced off a tree. And while the serious injuries Dole sustained later surely came from German fire, did the episode demonstrate heroism on Dole's part or a reckless move that ended up killing his radioman and endangering the sergeant who dragged Dole off the field?


The truth, according to many accounts, is that Dole fought with exceptional bravery and deserves the nation's gratitude. No one in 1996 questioned that record. Any such attack on behalf of Clinton, an admitted Vietnam draft dodger, would have been preposterous.


Yet amazingly, something quite similar is happening today as supporters of President Bush attack the Vietnam record of Senator John Kerry.


The situations are not completely parallel. Bush was not a draft dodger, but he certainly was a Vietnam avoider, having joined the Texas Air National Guard rather than serving in the regular military.


Kerry, on the other hand, may have done more than Dole to qualify as a genuine war hero. Although his tour in Vietnam was short, on at least two occasions he acted decisively and with great daring in combat, saving at least one man's life and earning both a Silver Star and a Bronze Star. That's not our account or Kerry's; it is drawn from eyewitnesses and the military citations themselves.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #80 of 166
Thread Starter 
Here's a little more food for thought from atrios:

Quote:
Why are the Swift Boat Liars and Move On "two sides of the same coin." Move On is an established organization which has been around for years and which has a very large small donor base (and, a few large donors as well). Swift Boat Liars came into being just recently to lie about John Kerry's record.

Why are the Swift Boat Liar ads and Move On's ads equivalent? On one hand we have proven liars contradicting existing Navy records and 35 years of public comment, and on the other hand we have legitimate questions, raised by many prominent news organizations, about whether George Bush bothered to show up for national guard service as he was required. There are many legitimate questions about Bush's failure to fulfill his duty, including his failure to take a required flight physical, as well as the fact that Bush lied about his military record in his autobiography. Kerry has Navy records to back up his claims, Bush does not.

Why is Move On a "far left" organization? Can you point to these extreme positions they've taken on some issues? Any issue?


... and, one more thing. If they're "the same," why are the swift boat liars on every news show and Move On people are not?
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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