swift boat liars running aground - Page 3

You should care about it because what the gentleman is saying is true.

Uh oh, we're back to that ugly word. It must be like kryptonite to you...

I give credibility to anyone with a persuasive argument to make. Nothing "funny" about it. You might want to check it out.

Notice you don't respond to the meat of argument, which is that the allegations made by the not-so-swift liars are unsubstantiated, flatly contradicted by the military record, and frequently contradicted by the liars themselves. Whereas the questions about Bush's national guard duty are based on documented inconsistencies, actual eye brow raisers (didn't show up for medical exam for flight training? Hmmm...) and a telling lack of conclusive counter evidence.

Like I said to SDW, committing yourself to a world where you are obliged to argue counter to the evidence is a character eroding proposition. I wouldn't be surprised if ya'll have actually lost the ability to distinguish truth from fiction, you've been busily supporting the lies of this administration for so long.

But again, as I have said, the more grotesque trend is the effort to build a world where there is no objective truth, or rather the American people no longer believe that there is an objective truth, so that the fabulists of the right can be free to craft there "message" without any pesky reality to intrude.

And the conservatives on this board have aligned them with that, and I think that is the real body blow to our republic.

I know you don't think so, but why should I pay any mind to you? You've been consistently wrong about everything, from the justification for the war and the tenor its aftermath to the efficacy of tax cuts as engines of job creation, the factual basis for various slurs against Kerry, the innocence of various bad actors in the Bush administration and finally, to Bush's viability as a candidate and the ultimate cynicism and credulity of the American people.

You've "addressed" the allegations by trying to claim that they have merit, that they have some legitimate place in the political debate, and that they are somehow mirrored by activities on the left, none of which is remotely true (that word again).

So yeah, by all means, stop lying to yourself and others, it's depressing.

As far as your slightly spooky ruminations about my personal life vs. your "success", good for you, back at ya.

But while you enjoy your credibility back in the world, give a thought to the future of the country and what it means when the sitting president campaigns entirely on the basis of slur and innuendo, backed up by a credulous media apparatus that treats accusations as new events. How is that good?

Because that is, of course, what I care about. I will argue this point wherever there is a venue, and do; with letters to the editor, trying to persuade people I know, supporting entities and institutions that care about reasoned analysis over triumphalism and bullying, and voting for people that I think care about the same.

Because it's important.

I'd be happy to address the real issues in the threads devoted to them. This thread is about the evidence that the swift boat vets are lying.

You made a decision to throw your lot in with the sleaziest of Rove's attack modes. You continued to claim that these attacks had some relevance to the campaign after having your attention directed to self-contradicting statements by the vets themselves, further testimonies in support of Kerry from people who were really there, not just in same country, and the investigative process that underlies awarding of medals (as opposed to the simply ridiculous "Kerry put himself in for the Bronze star and somehow controlled the Navy's investigation into not just his own but another guy's medal that day.

None of which have you "addressed".

So given that you support the worst sleaze the political process has to offer, and your best defense (as always) is some kind of vague notion of "parity" on the left (again, very simply untrue), do you really find it surprising that people might start to get a little brusque with you?

Pretty much everybody on these boards can see this for what it is, and how, as ever more evidence accrues to confirm this episode as the shabby piece of gutter politics that it is, you start to want to change the subject: to how much money MoveOn.org spends, or whether or not Bush's guard duty got similar play, or how you're complaints about Bush's errors prove open-mindedness.

That being the case, why go down the muddy road with the Swifties? Supporting Bush over Kerry doesn't require it, you can, and have, argued the case on the merits.

This isn't a debate over taxation and distribution of wealth, or the role of government in day to day life, or the possibility of building a more egalitarian society vs. letting the free market have its way.

Those are points of contention worthy of debate, which we do, and which is part and parcel of the nature of political argument. Though I might berate you for being obtuse or short sighted for not seeing my enlightened viewpoint of anyone of these issues, I would grant you the assumption that you are arguing on behalf of what's best for the country.

The swift boat slur is entirely another matter. Nobody obliged you to enthusiastically embrace their claims. I can't see where doing so could arise out of any real ideological stance other than "we will beat you with whatever club presents itself".

As long as this shit is still in play I will continue to present evidence that it is bullshit. As long as you continue to act as if it had bearing on Kerry's fitness to be president, I will address you under the assumption that you're a whore who values winning over ethics.

Every possible angle but admitting they're lying.

Well, that's the problem isn't it? You keep insisting this even after you have been shown that these very same men praised Kerry to high heaven just a few years ago, even after you have it explained to you that the process of vetting the awarding of a medal requires more than the word of the person involved, even after the people actually on Kerry's boat have called these charges a lie, even after a skipper of one of the other boats has called it a lie, even after we learn that one of Kerry's accusers received a Bronze star for the same action that he now says Kerry didn't deserve his Bronze star for, even after the republican guy Kerry rescued has called it a lie, even knowing that this smear is part of a pattern of Karl Rove orchestrated attacks and is remarkably similar to previous campaigns against veterans, even knowing that the lead guy has been after Kerry for 30 years for what he did after he got back, even knowing that veterans that want Kerry hurt for what he did after he got back are in no short supply, and even knowing that nothing these guys say is anything more than here-say, and all documentary, credible evidence at hand supports Kerry and refutes the swift boat liars.

And you want us to believe that you simply think there is something here that bears investigation, because, well, you just do.

Instead of suspecting that you simply delight in anything that damages Kerry's campaign, and will tirelessly front for it, because you have no decency and care only about winning.

There really is no other way to take this, Nick. Nobody, and I mean nobody who is paying attention and isn't simply eager to see Kerry defeated by whatever means necessary, thinks this stuff is anything but the sleaziest kind of political attack, designed to damage exactly what Kerry took out of the convention, and that is credibility as a war time leader.

So I say again, i simply don't believe you when you say that you think there is some substance to this. I don't think you're that stupid.

But I'm forced to conclude that you are that amoral, that you don't care what is true and not, and that as a representative of contemporary conservatism you are all too typical.