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Allies to Kerry on troops... take a hike

post #1 of 38
Thread Starter 
A key Kerry criticism of Bush on Iraq has been that Kerry will have been able to get our allies to commit to our action on Iraq and share the burden with regard to troops deployed.

As usual, it is an empty utopian promise that does not deal with the realities of the world.

Allies not in formation

Quote:
"I understand why John Kerry is making proposals of this kind, but there is a lack of realism in them," Menzies Campbell, a British lawmaker who is a spokesman on defense issues for the Liberal Democratic Party, said in a typical comment.

Well what could they commit?

Then finally we get to this...

Quote:
In an interview with The Times last week, Kerry said that by building up international support, it would be a "reasonable goal" to replace most U.S. troops in Iraq with foreign forces within his first term. There are now about 140,000 U.S. troops stationed there, or 88% of a total international force of about 160,000.

In the last several days, Kerry has begun arguing that he could substantially reduce the number of U.S. troops within the first six months of a Kerry administration. In an interview with National Public Radio on Friday, Kerry said: "I believe that within a year from now, we could significantly reduce American forces in Iraq, and that's my plan."

The proposal could be accomplished by increasing the number of foreign troops and boosting the size of the Iraqi security force, Kerry aides say.

Yet some key countries have already ruled out providing troops, and others are badly strained from the deployments they have already made.

The French and German governments have made clear that sending troops is out of the question. British officials have made no such categorical statement, but they have expressed concern that their troops are overstretched.

Although Japan has supplied a 550-member noncombat force as a symbol of its international commitment, analysts there see little chance the nation would agree to send more.

Russia's ambassador to the United Nations, Andrei Denisov, ruled out a commitment of troops. "We are not going to send anybody there, and that's all there is to say," Denisov said.

Phrases like "building up international support" sure sound good in a campaign speech. However they don't do much to make us safer.

How do the Iraqi's feel about other troops coming in to relieve the United States?

Quote:
Senior Iraqi officials told U.S. officials this summer that they opposed the idea of bringing in additional troops from any foreign country.

It goes deeper into other Kerry efforts to build support and basically knocks them down as ineffective.

And we are supposed to vote for this guy because he will do a better job? Sounds like nice rhetoric and empty promises.

Nick

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post #2 of 38
And Bush offers us no plan.

I would take something that is recognizable as thought over something that is recognizable as the lack of thought any day...
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post #3 of 38
Where are these Allies you keep referring to? A British lawmaker, a political analyst, and some Iraqi officials. Iraqi officials? Come on.

The article itself says that France, Germany and England have no plans to endorse Bush's withdrawal.

Regarding troop support in Iraq, you have to admit that Bush's F-you policy with the rest of the world hasn't exactly engendered a cooperative spirit with the US. Once Kerry's elected we'll see that these countries will change their tone similar to what happened the moment Reagan took office.

Quote:
Kerry, however, insists that he can gather international support by showing leadership and by giving other countries decision-making authority they have not had before now.
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post #4 of 38
So if I'm following your reasoning here...

Bush has done such a stupendous job of fucking up the occupation, that there is actually nothing that can be done.

Which is Kerry's fault.
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post #5 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
So if I'm following your reasoning here...

Bush has done such a stupendous job of fucking up the occupation, that there is actually nothing that can be done.

Which is Kerry's fault.

Actually one of the cited reasons for countries not having troops to give is that they are already deployed with our troops and there just aren't more to give.

Why are they deployed? Because Bush already has a coalition of the willing or a coalition of those who can provide.

Kerry claims other can and will do more. He claims he can make this happen, but the claims don't add up.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #6 of 38
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Actually one of the cited reasons for countries not having troops to give is that they are already deployed with our troops and there just aren't more to give.

Why are they deployed? Because Bush already has a coalition of the willing or a coalition of those who can provide.

Kerry claims other can and will do more. He claims he can make this happen, but the claims don't add up.

Nick

So coalition or no, there is no way around massive American troop deployments in Iraq for nobody knows how long?

Americans continuing to die for... well, we don't really know anymore, something something freedom something...

So I guess Kerry should be running on a platform of "Iraq: irredeemable sink hole that I promise not to make worse".
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post #7 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
So coalition or no, there is no way around massive American troop deployments in Iraq for nobody knows how long?

Americans continuing to die for... well, we don't really know anymore, something something freedom something...

So I guess Kerry should be running on a platform of "Iraq: irredeemable sink hole that I promise not to make worse".

Kerry shouldn't be claiming that what he voted for, and what has been done could have somehow been executed better. He has claimed this and when people begin investigating the truth of the matter, they discover that what has been with regard to troops and who can give them is all that can be done.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #8 of 38
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Kerry shouldn't be claiming that what he voted for, and what has been done could have somehow been executed better. He has claimed this and when people begin investigating the truth of the matter, they discover that what has been with regard to troops and who can give them is all that can be done.

Nick

Kerry never voted for a pointless war followed by a botched occupation.

If this is "all that can be done" then the Bush administration has even more to answer for than we've imagined, for that would mean that they deliberately drew us into a conflict whose only possible outcome was an enormous investment of American lives.
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post #9 of 38
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
So if I'm following your reasoning here...

Bush has done such a stupendous job of fucking up the occupation, that there is actually nothing that can be done.

Which is Kerry's fault.



That's not fair . . . you are making sense of trumptman's posts
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post #10 of 38
It seems to me that Kerry's statements promise something very important . . even if a British lawyer and an Iraqi official don't believe it: namely, that he will engage in DIPLOMACY rather than a campaign of systematic alienation of the rest of the world . . .

. . . except for certain Brits and ascending Iraqi future dictators
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--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #11 of 38
post #12 of 38
Kerry just want to cut and run.
post #13 of 38
nope
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #14 of 38
Trumptman, you really don't know much about how Bush is thought of by your allies do you? Here's another quote, that is typcial:

Quote:
When I asked one senior cabinet minister last week whether he was hoping for a Kerry victory, he replied in just one word: "desperately". If the polls are right, he may yet get his wish.

That's senior cabinet member versus the Lib Dem defence secretary. Have a nice day. The thread can stop here as it's lunacy. If the rest of the world had a vote, we'd go for ABB and you know it.

Article
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post #15 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
Trumptman, you really don't know much about how Bush is thought of by your allies do you? Here's another quote, that is typcial:



That's senior cabinet member versus the Lib Dem defence secretary. Have a nice day. The thread can stop here as it's lunacy. If the rest of the world had a vote, we'd go for ABB and you know it.

Article

Yes, well the thread isn't about how the world or certain members of foreign governments would vote. It is about Kerry claiming he could replace American troops with those of the NATO alliance and also with troops from countries outside that alliance. If you have any proof Kerry can keep that campaign promise, I'll be happy to look at it.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #16 of 38
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Yes, well the thread isn't about how the world or certain members of foreign governments would vote. It is about Kerry claiming he could replace American troops with those of the NATO alliance and also with troops from countries outside that alliance. If you have any proof Kerry can keep that campaign promise, I'll be happy to look at it.

Nick

What proof do you ever have that someone will keep their campaign promises?

Also I ask again did Bush keep all of his?
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post #17 of 38
Of course not but there was a major terrorist strike on the US. You must have heard about it? It was in all the papers and all over the TV for a while.
post #18 of 38
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Yes, well the thread isn't about how the world or certain members of foreign governments would vote. It is about Kerry claiming he could replace American troops with those of the NATO alliance and also with troops from countries outside that alliance. If you have any proof Kerry can keep that campaign promise, I'll be happy to look at it.

Nick

You start a thread with a quote about how a UK politician thinks Kerry is wrong. You title it "Allies to Kerry [...] take a hike." You do this to show that Kerry is out of step with US allies.

When I point out that the US 'allies' would love to be shot of Bush (they are much more in step with Kerry), all of a sudden what the thread is about becomes a Kerry capmpaign promise.

Riiiiiiiight.
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post #19 of 38
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Of course not but there was a major terrorist strike on the US. You must have heard about it? It was in all the papers and all over the TV for a while.


Oh yeah! I forgot that!

Well that excuses everything!

NOT!


For Bush supporters that should be the campaign slogan : " BLAME IT ON SOMEBODY ELSE! "

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post #20 of 38
Here is a PDF from the people of Norway. We intend to put it as a full page ad in the washington post, just before the election.
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post #21 of 38
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
You start a thread with a quote about how a UK politician thinks Kerry is wrong. You title it "Allies to Kerry [...] take a hike." You do this to show that Kerry is out of step with US allies.

When I point out that the US 'allies' would love to be shot of Bush (they are much more in step with Kerry), all of a sudden what the thread is about becomes a Kerry capmpaign promise.

Riiiiiiiight.

You can't even seem to get the title of the thread right.
post #22 of 38
Quote:
Originally posted by X X
You can't even seem to get the title of the thread right.

Wow, what a devastating rebuttal....
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post #23 of 38
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Here is a PDF from the people of Norway. We intend to put it as a full page ad in the washington post, just before the election.

Yeah, and btw, we're one of those allies. In case there was any doubt...
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post #24 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
What proof do you ever have that someone will keep their campaign promises?

Also I ask again did Bush keep all of his?

I'm sure that there are some he has broken or amended.

But the reality is that Iraq is not just some minor issue and Kerry's criticism is based off the fact that he claims an ability to unite all our allies and also get them to commit troops to support democracy in Iraq and allow American troops to come home.

The point is if Kerry's solution rings hollow, so does the criticism because the criticism is based in part on Kerry providing a better solution.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #25 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
So if I'm following your reasoning here...

Bush has done such a stupendous job of fucking up the occupation, that there is actually nothing that can be done.

Which is Kerry's fault.

I guess your not following it. Try again.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #26 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
You start a thread with a quote about how a UK politician thinks Kerry is wrong. You title it "Allies to Kerry [...] take a hike." You do this to show that Kerry is out of step with US allies.

When I point out that the US 'allies' would love to be shot of Bush (they are much more in step with Kerry), all of a sudden what the thread is about becomes a Kerry capmpaign promise.

Riiiiiiiight.

Actually I start a thread with an article from the Los Angeles Times investigating whether any countries who had previously not committed troops would be willing do to so now.

The reality is that the allies who have not provided troops will continue their current position. They will due this whether Bush or Kerry are president. Kerry has indicated that if he became president, it would change this. The Times investigation has shown this not to be true.

Nick

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post #27 of 38
What you fail to understand is that at least Kerry will try to establish important alliances beyong Britain and New Guinie, and, overcome the very serious failing on the part of the Bush administratio,: the failure to work diplomatically, and the failure to not alienate the world and potential allies in the War On Terror.
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--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #28 of 38
I think there are some countries beyond Britain and New Guinie. Maybe you missed that?
post #29 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
What you fail to understand is that at least Kerry will try to establish important alliances beyong Britain and New Guinie, and, overcome the very serious failing on the part of the Bush administratio,: the failure to work diplomatically, and the failure to not alienate the world and potential allies in the War On Terror.

I think this is what he missed.

Quote:
In an interview with The Times last week, Kerry said that by building up international support, it would be a "reasonable goal" to replace most U.S. troops in Iraq with foreign forces within his first term. There are now about 140,000 U.S. troops stationed there, or 88% of a total international force of about 160,000.

In the last several days, Kerry has begun arguing that he could substantially reduce the number of U.S. troops within the first six months of a Kerry administration. In an interview with National Public Radio on Friday, Kerry said: "I believe that within a year from now, we could significantly reduce American forces in Iraq, and that's my plan."

The proposal could be accomplished by increasing the number of foreign troops and boosting the size of the Iraqi security force, Kerry aides say.

Yet some key countries have already ruled out providing troops, and others are badly strained from the deployments they have already made.

The French and German governments have made clear that sending troops is out of the question. British officials have made no such categorical statement, but they have expressed concern that their troops are overstretched.

Although Japan has supplied a 550-member noncombat force as a symbol of its international commitment, analysts there see little chance the nation would agree to send more.

Russia's ambassador to the United Nations, Andrei Denisov, ruled out a commitment of troops. "We are not going to send anybody there, and that's all there is to say," Denisov said.

France...no
Germany...no
Russia...no
Japan...no

Those are some pretty big "other countries" that have already said no.

Nick

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post #30 of 38
I can't believe you guys.

The rest of the "free" world would rather have a potato for US president than Bush. Kerry will be welcomed with open arms. period.
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post #31 of 38
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
France...no
Germany...no
Russia...no
Japan...no

Those are some pretty big "other countries" that have already said no.

We would have to analyize why they're currently saying "no" since this is politics. Politicians change positions rather quickly when they're given what they want. I have a feeling the "no" you see are a "no" to Bush and certainly negotiable. It's politics, it's negotiable.

Perhaps if Kerry were elected and opened up the bidding for reconstruction to some of these countries they might change their positions?

Don't Medal is an interesting lite read.

EDIT: Link isn't working. Sunday Mirror, Aug 22nd, Article titled "Don't Mirror"

Quote:
TONY Blair has snubbed George Bush's pleas to fly to the US and pick up his "war medal" ahead of the Presidential elections.


The US President knows the PM, who is massively popular in the States, would provide his flagging re-election campaign with a much-needed boost.


And he is putting huge pressure on Mr Blair to pick up the Congressional Medal of Honor, awarded by America for his unswerving support in Afghanistan and Iraq.


But Mr Blair's closest aides have warned him to resist the plan, insisting that a meeting with President Bush would torpedo Democrat rival John Kerry's bid for the White House.


A senior Government source said: "There has been a lot of telephone traffic between the White House and Downing Street over the medal in recent weeks. George Bush wants the Prime Minister to come to Washington and pick up the medal, which is the highest honour America can bestow on a foreigner.
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post #32 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
We would have to analyize why they're currently saying "no" since this is politics. Politicians change positions rather quickly when they're given what they want. I have a feeling the "no" you see are a "no" to Bush and certainly negotiable. It's politics, it's negotiable.

Perhaps if Kerry were elected and opened up the bidding for reconstruction to some of these countries they might change their positions?

Check around a bit because the reconstruction bids have been opened up to countries that did not provide troops.

Also the point of the Times piece was to do as you say, analyze why they were saying no and if this would or could change. Their answer was that it could not.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #33 of 38
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Also the point of the Times piece was to do as you say, analyze why they were saying no and if this would or could change. Their answer was that it could not.

While some bids have opened up, I don't think it's really enough to make our allies happy. And of course they're going to say that. It's good politics back home to say definitively "no" when we all know it's politics.
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post #34 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
While some bids have opened up, I don't think it's really enough to make our allies happy. And of course they're going to say that. It's good politics back home to say definitively "no" when we all know it's politics.

But could the reality also be that Europe basically has no military capacity to provide, even if it wanted to do so and that of that military capacity, little of it is suited for Iraq. Also I know folks around here love considering the source, the LA Times is hardly a Republican rag or whatever folks would care to call messengers they don't like. Maybe the reality is that Europe has little to no military, and that they would rather pretend that it isn't committed to fighting because of Bush rather than exposing the reality that they are no longer even in the second tier of military power.

That could be a political reality as well.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #35 of 38
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Here is a PDF from the people of Norway. We intend to put it as a full page ad in the washington post, just before the election.

Nice - short, simple, very to-the-point. Replace "many Norwegians" with "many Americans" and I'll sign the fucking thing myself!
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post #36 of 38
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
So if I'm following your reasoning here...

Bush has done such a stupendous job of fucking up the occupation, that there is actually nothing that can be done.

Which is Kerry's fault.

It's in situations like these when I hate a democracy that has a cycle of getting into office, setting up the country the way you think is right, and then having the next guy trash your work and build up his own idea of the right way to run the US. This always happens.
post #37 of 38
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
NY Blair has snubbed George Bush's pleas to fly to the US and pick up his "war medal" ahead of the Presidential elections.


The US President knows the PM, who is massively popular in the States, would provide his flagging re-election campaign with a much-needed boost.


And he is putting huge pressure on Mr Blair to pick up the Congressional Medal of Honor, awarded by America for his unswerving support in Afghanistan and Iraq.


But Mr Blair's closest aides have warned him to resist the plan, insisting that a meeting with President Bush would torpedo Democrat rival John Kerry's bid for the White House.


A senior Government source said: "There has been a lot of telephone traffic between the White House and Downing Street over the medal in recent weeks. George Bush wants the Prime Minister to come to Washington and pick up the medal, which is the highest honour America can bestow on a foreigne

I can't believe that the idea of giving Blair a Congressional Medal Of Honor goes over well with veterans!!

This is an outright political use of confering war medals, and is a slap in the face of any real recipients of the Medal Of Honor: people who really fisked their lives and did real heroic deeds . . .

If this plan, on the part of the Bush admin is true, why aren't more people hearing about it? and why aren't more vets pissed off?
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #38 of 38
Don't you Americans ever think of withdrawing your troops from a country that doesn't want you there? That would reduce your body count...
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