AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Dole 1996-Let's attack a vet.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Dole 1996-Let's attack a vet.

post #1 of 89
8/23/04 at 8:48am
Thread Starter 
In the SwiftBoat thread, one of the chief contentions is that Bush attacked McCain and now Kerry in the same fashion and that no one on the left would ever have questioned Dole during the 1996 campaign.

Northgate even posted this editorial from the Boston Globe (Kerry's local paper and owned by the NY Times)

Boston Globe-Big Lies for Bush

It made quite a few claims.


Quote:
The truth, according to many accounts, is that Dole fought with exceptional bravery and deserves the nation's gratitude. No one in 1996 questioned that record. Any such attack on behalf of Clinton, an admitted Vietnam draft dodger, would have been preposterous.

Well that would be nice if it were the truth.

From The Nation - 1996 an article questioning Bob Dole's military service and war record.

Dole's not a hero to these folks

Here are their conclusions...


Quote:
In the April 14 attack Dole did his duty, but his actions were hardly the stuff of heroism. It was his job to lead his platoon, and dragging a wounded (or dead) comrade into one's shell hole was a common occurrence in the heat of battle. Even the friendly chronicler Noel Koch wonders why a war wound invests the bearer with an aura of heroism. "Heroism," he says, "involves choices, and Dole perceived no choice between leading his men and not leading them." As a member of Dole's platoon, Stanley Jones, put it in a recent interview, Dole "was a good soldier, but no more a hero than any other soldier."

Here's the cover.



Of course we don't know if Clinton would have used 527's. They didn't exist back then.

Quote:
Imagine if supporters of Bill Clinton had tried in 1996 to besmirch the military record of his opponent, Bob Dole.

Imagine indeed. I don't have to imagine. I know the truth of the matter.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #2 of 89
8/23/04 at 8:59am
I thinkt that attacking president's candidate on their military records, is bad for the image of USA weither they belong to the conservative or the liberal camp.

I don't know if this kind of attacks are specific of USA, but at the eyes of a foreigner like me, they gave a bad image of USA.
Reply
Reply
post #3 of 89
8/23/04 at 9:16am
Unfortunately Vietnam injected a great deal of politics into military records. We're supposed to forgive Clinton's draft dodging, impale Bush for not showing up for weekend warrior school, forget Kerry's slander on the solders, and then vilify him for actions take under fire.


There's no doubt that Kerry is a hero, like most everyone else that went there. He does come off as a bit of a political player with his war record. So politics get played back. Big surprise.
Reply
Reply
post #4 of 89
8/23/04 at 9:23am
You guys are so full of shit it isn't even funny. First, The Nation is an independently owned publication that has been reporting liberal stories since, well, forever. So to assume The Nation wrote their "editorial", only ONE editorial, in collaboration with the Clinton re-election team is stretching. To assume that The Nation was quickly setup, funded and published by liberal multi-millionaires just to besmirch Dole's record while running for president is hysterical in its farcicalness.

Also, this is a pretty OBSCURE editorial to dig out of the past. Was the news dominated by their story in 1996? Was every anchor, op-ed writer, newspaper and online rag talking about The Nation story? Did the DNC send out it's yapping wolves to chat up Dole's "questionable" war record?

NO.

Nice try, though.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #5 of 89
8/23/04 at 9:27am
Maybe the thing to notice is that this story has no larger residence in the political history of the US.

In other words, "the liberal media" didn't touch it.

There were no front page stories in the Washington Post or New York Times debating the merits of the charges, no endless rounds of talk show buffoonery trying to tease nuance out of nothing, the story of Dole's campaign did not become the story of his defense of his war record.

If the Kerry attack had been an article in say, the National Review, and that's where it had stayed, we would not be having this discussion, would we?

(edit) ahh, Northgate beat me to it.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #6 of 89
8/23/04 at 9:41am
Quote:
Also, this is a pretty OBSCURE editorial to dig out of the past. Was the news dominated by their story in 1996? Was every anchor, op-ed writer, newspaper and online rag talking about The Nation story? Did the DNC send out it's yapping wolves to chat up Dole's "questionable" war record?

B-I-N-G-O
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #7 of 89
8/23/04 at 9:44am
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Of course we don't know if Clinton would have used 527's. They didn't exist back then.

They didn't? They might have been called something else, but there were definitely independent expenditure groups before the 2004 election. The famous Willie Horton ad was an independent expenditure group, for example.
Reply
Reply
post #8 of 89
8/23/04 at 9:54am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
You guys are so full of shit it isn't even funny. First, The Nation is an independently owned publication that has been reporting liberal stories since, well, forever. So to assume The Nation wrote their "editorial", only ONE editorial, in collaboration with the Clinton re-election team is stretching. To assume that The Nation was quickly setup, funded and published by liberal multi-millionaires just to besmirch Dole's record while running for president is hysterical in its farcicalness.

Also, this is a pretty OBSCURE editorial to dig out of the past. Was the news dominated by their story in 1996? Was every anchor, op-ed writer, newspaper and online rag talking about The Nation story? Did the DNC send out it's yapping wolves to chat up Dole's "questionable" war record?

NO.

Nice try, though.

Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Maybe the thing to notice is that this story has no larger residence in the political history of the US.

In other words, "the liberal media" didn't touch it.

There were no front page stories in the Washington Post or New York Times debating the merits of the charges, no endless rounds of talk show buffoonery trying to tease nuance out of nothing, the story of Dole's campaign did not become the story of his defense of his war record.

If the Kerry attack had been an article in say, the National Review, and that's where it had stayed, we would not be having this discussion, would we?

(edit) ahh, Northgate beat me to it.

Actually the real question to ask is would it have been a bigger story if Clinton had been able to use the 527's as Kerry has done. The reason Kerry has been questioned so by a 527 that has only about a half million dollars is because the liberal 527's have spent millions of dollars keeping Bush's National Guard service in the spotlight.

I mean when one looks at things through a historical perspective, we are left asking why Bush's guard service is more of an issue in 2004 AFTER he has become president, than it was in 2000 when he was running for president.

The answer of course is that now there are liberal 527's spending millions of dollars to make it an issue. Finally, there could be more articles than this. I'm not a journalistic professional and I don't have access to the Lex-Nex to search deeper. You also have to remember this was pre-www (on a large scale), pre-blog, pre-Drudge, even pre-Fox/MSNBC/CNBC news.

But again, North asked us to imagine and I did much better than that. I found the actual reality. Dole's service was questioned. I suppose we will just have to file this next to Pfflam's assertion that there is no link between Democratic donor's and Democratic 527's even though I found about 200 million worth of proof for him.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #9 of 89
8/23/04 at 9:59am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
They didn't? They might have been called something else, but there were definitely independent expenditure groups before the 2004 election. The famous Willie Horton ad was an independent expenditure group, for example.

Yes, but the political parties themselves were allowed to accept the soft money that goes to these 527's. Also the donations were not allowed to be unlimited. That has changed for this cycle. Finally McCain-Feingold changed who could run the PAC's of the past.

This article does a good job with the explanation.

Silent partners

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #10 of 89
8/23/04 at 10:03am
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Actually the real question to ask is would it have been a bigger story if Clinton had been able to use the 527's as Kerry has done. The reason Kerry has been questio

[snip: dishonest load of shit]

tter than that. I found the actual reality. Dole's service was questioned. I suppose we will just have to file this next to Pfflam's assertion that there is no link between Democratic donor's and Democratic 527's even though I found about 200 million worth of proof for him.

Nick

Good heavens, you make me angry with your weasily crap.

FoxNews frontpage.

Even here in Britain we read about the Swift Boat Veterans in our newspapers and the 'controversy' over Kerry's service record. It's clearly a deciding factor in the election. That Dole's service was questioned appears to be accurate. That it became a deciding factor in the election is nonsense.
Reply
Reply
post #11 of 89
8/23/04 at 10:15am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Good heavens, you make me angry with your weasily crap.

FoxNews frontpage.

Even here in Britain we read about the Swift Boat Veterans in our newspapers and the 'controversy' over Kerry's service record. It's clearly a deciding factor in the election. That Dole's service was questioned appears to be accurate. That it became a deciding factor in the election is nonsense.

So basically when you have no rebuttal, you just sling mud, call names and complain about Fox News.

Typical...

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #12 of 89
8/23/04 at 10:18am
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Actually the real question to ask is would it have been a bigger story if Clinton had been able to use the 527's as Kerry has done. The reason Kerry has been questioned so by a 527 that has only about a half million dollars is because the liberal 527's have spent millions of dollars keeping Bush's National Guard service in the spotlight.

I mean when one looks at things through a historical perspective, we are left asking why Bush's guard service is more of an issue in 2004 AFTER he has become president, than it was in 2000 when he was running for president.

The answer of course is that now there are liberal 527's spending millions of dollars to make it an issue. Finally, there could be more articles than this. I'm not a journalistic professional and I don't have access to the Lex-Nex to search deeper. You also have to remember this was pre-www (on a large scale), pre-blog, pre-Drudge, even pre-Fox/MSNBC/CNBC news.

But again, North asked us to imagine and I did much better than that. I found the actual reality. Dole's service was questioned. I suppose we will just have to file this next to Pfflam's assertion that there is no link between Democratic donor's and Democratic 527's even though I found about 200 million worth of proof for him.

Nick

Bush's national guard service record is in the spotlight? Funny, it seems like it has been dropped. Without resolving the actual, documented inconsistencies. I guess the liberal media didn't get the memo.

Clinton didn't need 527's to make Doles war record an issue. His surrogates could have raised it at any time.

Did they? No, because it would have been beneath them.

Man, that must sting, having your guys demonstrate ethical instincts that fall well below the standards of the vile, satan worshipping Clinton.

Just as a friendly aside, once you're not even grasping at straws but at the rumor of straws it's probably a good time to take a break.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #13 of 89
8/23/04 at 10:30am
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Yes, but the political parties themselves were allowed to accept the soft money that goes to these 527's. Also the donations were not allowed to be unlimited. That has changed for this cycle. Finally McCain-Feingold changed who could run the PAC's of the past.

This article does a good job with the explanation.

Silent partners

Nick

Well I still don't get it after reading that article. In any case, anything could be made an issue at any time, with or without 527s.

You mentioned earlier that the reason Bush's national guard service wasn't an issue in 2000 was because there weren't any 527s. Again, I don't know how the tax laws changed, so I don't know if it's accurate to say 527s didn't exist. But Bush's national guard service becoming an issue had nothing to with 527s. It became an issue when Michael Moore said "Bush was AWOL" at a Wes Clark event, and then Clark was asked about it at a primary debate, and then Terry McAuliffe raised it again. None of that involved 527s.
Reply
Reply
post #14 of 89
8/23/04 at 10:36am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Bush's national guard service record is in the spotlight? Funny, it seems like it has been dropped. Without resolving the actual, documented inconsistencies. I guess the liberal media didn't get the memo.

Of course it has been dropped. You can only chase something so long before people get tired of hearing about it. I'm sure the Kerry issue has a limited time frame as well.

Quote:
Clinton didn't need 527's to make Doles war record an issue. His surrogates could have raised it at any time.

I documented an instance where it was brought up. However the reason Clinton probably didn't harp on it too much is because Dole didn't use it as a means of claiming some sort of moral high ground as Kerry has done not only to Bush, but against his Democratic opponents as well.

Quote:
Did they? No, because it would have been beneath them.

Actually it was beneath Dole to believe that serving your country makes you a superhuman who is better than all others.

Remember that I've quoted both the Dean and Edwards campaigns complaining about Kerry with regard to his using his military service as a political club and for political gain.

The other reason it was never brought up of course is that Dole didn't leave his tour, come back home and accuse the men and women in the military of war crimes and atrocities. Perhaps if he had done that, he would have encountered those same men and women coming back to clear their names decades later.

Quote:
Man, that must sting, having your guys demonstrate ethical instincts that fall well below the standards of the vile, satan worshipping Clinton.

Come now, if we wanted to go as low as Clinton, we would be working to keep Nader off the ballot like the Democrats are doing with millions of dollars from the rich while running an Ivy League Kennedy Clone who has twice married into money as being for the "little guy."

Quote:
Just as a friendly aside, once you're not even grasping at straws but at the rumor of straws it's probably a good time to take a break.

Speaking of break, perhaps you should take one. You seem to be obsessing and ranting without really adding anything new.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #15 of 89
8/23/04 at 10:40am
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Of course it has been dropped. You can only chase something so long before people get tired of hearing about it. I'm sure the Kerry issue has a limited time frame as well.



I documented an instance where it was brought up. However the reason Clinton probably didn't harp on it too much is because Dole didn't use it as a means of claiming some sort of moral high ground as Kerry has done not only to Bush, but against his Democratic opponents as well.



Actually it was beneath Dole to believe that serving your country makes you a superhuman who is better than all others.

Remember that I've quoted both the Dean and Edwards campaigns complaining about Kerry with regard to his using his military service as a political club and for political gain.

The other reason it was never brought up of course is that Dole didn't leave his tour, come back home and accuse the men and women in the military of war crimes and atrocities. Perhaps if he had done that, he would have encountered those same men and women coming back to clear their names decades later.



Come now, if we wanted to go as low as Clinton, we would be working to keep Nader off the ballot like the Democrats are doing with millions of dollars from the rich while running an Ivy League Kennedy Clone who has twice married into money as being for the "little guy."



Speaking of break, perhaps you should take one. You seem to be obsessing and ranting without really adding anything new.

Nick

-----------------------------------------------------------
" Actually it was beneath Dole to believe that serving your country makes you a superhuman who is better than all others. "

-----------------------------------------------------------


If you agree with this ( and it sounds like you do ) what the hell are you going on about?

In a way it kind of negates your whole argument.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #16 of 89
8/23/04 at 10:47am
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
So basically when you have no rebuttal, you just sling mud, call names and complain about Fox News.

Typical...

Nick

I think you misunderstand my post.

I'll put it in simpler words and naturally I won't trust you to draw your own inferences again.

As you can see from the link I posted to FoxNews, this is a very important and live issue that will affect the decision of the American electorate. There was, however, no equivalent of FoxNews in BoB Dole's time to keep it as current, and the questioning of his service record did not become an 'issue' so important it was even debated in foreign press.

Your comparison is clearly not valid and I believe you're not quite honest for making it.

If you'd like me to clarify further, by all means send me a PM and I'll knock you up a diagram or something.
Reply
Reply
post #17 of 89
8/23/04 at 10:56am
I just want to make one more point about Trumpt's charges that liberals pulled the same stunt in 1996 and why that's absurd:

The Nation DID NOT spend MILLIONS of dollars promoting it's magazine, the article in question, or challenging Dole's "credibility" vis a vis a national advertising campaign.

I tried Googling the advertising budget of SBVT, but I'm assuming it's between $10 and $30 million.

So, we can argue about 527's all day long. But that would be like comparing apples to oranges.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #18 of 89
8/23/04 at 11:00am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
I just want to make one more point about Trumpt's charges that liberals pulled the same stunt in 1996 and why that's absurd:

The Nation DID NOT spend MILLIONS of dollars promoting it's magazine, the article in question, or challenging Dole's "credibility" vis a vis a national advertising campaign.

I tried Googling the advertising budget of SBVT, but I'm assuming it's between $10 and $30 million.

So, we can argue about 527's all day long. But that would be like comparing apples to oranges.

The last disclosure form filed for SBVFT had their finances at about half a million.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #19 of 89
8/23/04 at 11:01am
Don't use big words.

Bob. Dole's. Service. Wasn't. Questioned. Nationally. OK that last one was a big word. It wasn't a big issue, in plain English. So, this thread is pointless.
"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
Reply
"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
Reply
post #20 of 89
8/23/04 at 11:03am
Something that bothers me about these America loving republicans(Dole) is they act like Kerry was wrong for making all the war crimes from vietnam public. Many bad things were done by our soldiers yet the republicans act like vietnam was a noble cause. Bullshit! Just as Kerry said our own guys were doing horrible things, hell we were spraying the dam place with agent orange and even on our own freaking soldiers. Vietnam was a govt clusterf..k that killed thousands & thousands of our guys for what? Yet they act like no one is suppose to mention how F..... up the war was? This makes me sick as an American who also has served. Screw all those bastards for not wanting the truth to be told. Bravo to Kerry for not only being a hero but coming back and telling it like it was.
.
Freedom of Speech is what makes this country great not suppresion of the truth,removal of freedom and liberty as Bush is pushing for. As a former Republican it makes me sick to see what the republicans are doing these days.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
Reply
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
Reply
post #21 of 89
8/23/04 at 11:10am
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
Something that bothers me about these America loving republicans(Dole) is they act like Kerry was wrong for making all the war crimes from vietnam public. Many bad things were done by our soldiers yet the republicans act like vietnam was a noble cause. Bullshit! Just as Kerry said our own guys were doing horrible things, hell we were spraying the dam place with agent orange and even on our own freaking soldiers. Vietnam was a govt clusterf..k that killed thousands & thousands of our guys for what? Yet they act like no one is suppose to mention how F..... up the war was? This makes me sick as an American who also has served. Screw all those bastards for not wanting the truth to be told. Bravo to Kerry for not only being a hero but coming back and telling it like it was.
.
Freedom of Speech is what makes this country great not suppresion of the truth,removal of freedom and liberty as Bush is pushing for. As a former Republican it makes me sick to see what the republicans are doing these days.

Here here.

What I can't figure out is whether or not Trumpt believes that The Nation article was justified or not.

It was obvious in 1996 that Bob Dole was showcasing his war record. I mean, there were like four or five in-depth news pieces on Dole's war wounds. Bob Dole did everything he could to use his service as a counterbalance to Clinton's draft dodging. We ALL know why he has that pen constantly stuck in his claw. We couldn't all know if there wasn't a massive PR campaign to educate the electorate about it. Right?

But am I the only one who remembers things the way they really were?
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #22 of 89
8/23/04 at 11:19am
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
The reason Kerry has been questioned so by a 527 that has only about a half million dollars is because the liberal 527's have spent millions of dollars keeping Bush's National Guard service in the spotlight.

How can you shine a spotlight on something that doesn't exist? (Poor attempt at humor, I know, but can we just say that it's better than nothing?)
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
post #23 of 89
8/23/04 at 11:21am
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
The last disclosure form filed for SBVFT had their finances at about half a million.

Does that include the cost of distributing pamphlets and fliers at RNC Headquarters?
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
post #24 of 89
8/23/04 at 11:37am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Aquatic
Don't use big words.

Bob. Dole's. Service. Wasn't. Questioned. Nationally. OK that last one was a big word. It wasn't a big issue, in plain English. So, this thread is pointless.

Keep moving the bar. First we have, Democratic donors don't fund 527 groups. That was proven wrong. Then we have no one questioned Dole's service. That was wrong. Now we have no one questioned Dole's service... nationally.

I don't know if I'll find the last one. But at least we know the bar keeps moving.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #25 of 89
8/23/04 at 11:38am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
How can you shine a spotlight on something that doesn't exist? (Poor attempt at humor, I know, but can we just say that it's better than nothing?)

Actually that was a decent joke bunge. We need a few more of them.

Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Does that include the cost of distributing pamphlets and fliers at RNC Headquarters?

See that one was even better.

I like a good joke as much as anyone else.

Nick

Edit: Had to include second joke.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #26 of 89
8/23/04 at 11:46am
Did anyone hear what Dole said?

It was the fairest assesment (minus Kerry's antiwar conniption) of this whole affair. It draws attention to the FACT that, although Kerry has balls, he was in a GREAT BIG HURRY to finese his way out of Viet Nam.

Why won't this get covered in the press? The admitted extent of some of Kerry's wounds are laughable---combine that fact with his conniption/medal throwing pathos attack---you end up with the picture of basically a mentally unstable individual.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #27 of 89
8/23/04 at 11:52am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
Here here.

What I can't figure out is whether or not Trumpt believes that The Nation article was justified or not.

It was obvious in 1996 that Bob Dole was showcasing his war record. I mean, there were like four or five in-depth news pieces on Dole's war wounds. Bob Dole did everything he could to use his service as a counterbalance to Clinton's draft dodging. We ALL know why he has that pen constantly stuck in his claw. We couldn't all know if there wasn't a massive PR campaign to educate the electorate about it. Right?

But am I the only one who remembers things the way they really were?

So let me understand your reasoning. Regardless of the actual events, the reasoning is quite clear.

Dole showcases war service and wounds.

The Nation piece justified.

Kerry showcases war service and wounds.

No questioning justified.

Seems pretty clear to me.

Oh and by the way, that pen has been in Dole's hand for years and still is. He wants to be buried with it. It wasn't just a campaign ploy.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #28 of 89
8/23/04 at 12:08pm
Today Bob Dole suggested that one or more of John Kerry's Purple Hearts may have been fraudulent in some way because they were for "superficial wounds."

Dole knows better.

In a 1988 campaign-trail autobiography, here's how Dole described the incident that earned him his first Purple Heart: "As we approached the enemy, there was a brief exchange of gunfire. I took a grenade in hand, pulled the pin, and tossed it in the direction of the farmhouse. It wasn't a very good pitch (remember, I was used to catching passes, not throwing them). In the darkness, the grenade must have struck a tree and bounced off. It exploded nearby, sending a sliver of metal into my leg--the sort of injury the Army patched up with Mercurochrome and a Purple Heart."

Josh Marshall
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #29 of 89
8/23/04 at 12:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
Today Bob Dole suggested that one or more of John Kerry's Purple Hearts may have been fraudulent in some way because they were for "superficial wounds."

Dole knows better.

In a 1988 campaign-trail autobiography, here's how Dole described the incident that earned him his first Purple Heart: "As we approached the enemy, there was a brief exchange of gunfire. I took a grenade in hand, pulled the pin, and tossed it in the direction of the farmhouse. It wasn't a very good pitch (remember, I was used to catching passes, not throwing them). In the darkness, the grenade must have struck a tree and bounced off. It exploded nearby, sending a sliver of metal into my leg--the sort of injury the Army patched up with Mercurochrome and a Purple Heart."

Josh Marshall

That's well known. Now all you have to do is show how Dole used the purple heart to come home early so he could criticize the soldiers still fighting World War Two.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #30 of 89
8/23/04 at 12:12pm
Sandusky says, "I saw the blood."

Sanduksy tells Dole to suck it.

Quote:
Crewmate Sandusky said today, "I was there when he got wounded. I saw the blood. I don't care what Dole said."

What a sad, sad moment in the life of Bob Dole, mocking a wounded soldier.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #31 of 89
8/23/04 at 12:14pm
In today's WaPo chat Kurtz correctly informs us that Move On's Bush ads are being financed through their PAC, which of course is subject to full disclosure laws. How many media outlets have equated the "shadowy" Move On ads with the "shadowy" Swift Boat ads, even though these things are in no way the same...
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #32 of 89
8/23/04 at 12:15pm
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Keep moving the bar. First we have, Democratic donors don't fund 527 groups. That was proven wrong. Then we have no one questioned Dole's service. That was wrong. Now we have no one questioned Dole's service... nationally.

I don't know if I'll find the last one. But at least we know the bar keeps moving.

Nick

Who cares about donors?!

The issue is that you have actual party officials in the SBV4T . . . and you have people that have been in Conservative politics for years and years at appointy levels, beyond funding.

Then this issue about the Dole article: yeah its a bit low . . . but it is also from one person's editorial from one very biased magazine . . . it is more than fringe compared to what is going on with Kerry!!

If we dug as desperately as you apparently did through every blog and magazine from the neo-con perspective these days, we would have a treasure trove full of sleazy slander that would simply be too fringe to bring up . . . then you might understand how trite this is.

Now, about the wounds: the only reason that you can say that they are 'laughable' is because a doctor has come out with a statement, a doctor who did not sign Kerry's records and who has no proof that he even saw Kerry . . . the Doctor who did sign the records, convieniently, is dead.
This guy is lying or fabulating memories out of the fog of war and an onslought of injured men to remember Kerry?!? yes. It is too obvious.

BTW: Clinton got a Rhodes Sccholarship to study in England . . . how is that draft-dodging?!

ANd Kerry is now rich, Republican's like money, they like rich people: Rich people getting money is virtuous (but giving money to the poor is evil, of course) . . . Kerry, as an adult came into money! He was not wealthy when growing up.
But suddenly, money is bad!
Does 'hypocrisy' sound like an apt word?!

--that tac is just like the whole war issue: Bush manages to make a liability out of something for Kerry which he himself is guilty of a thousand times over.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #33 of 89
8/23/04 at 1:04pm
The Bush campaign and truth ...

Bush campaign manager Ken Mehlman: "The fact is this campaign is unprecedented in our praise of our opponent's service during Vietnam."

Apropos of Mehlman's Orwellian remark, who sent Bob Dole onto the Sunday shows today?

Dole doesn't make such appearances not under direction. He's a party man, a partisan.

There's nothing wrong with that. But that means he doesn't freelance. But who gave him his talking points?

It answers itself. The White House sent him out.

Needless to say, it's not a question that occurred to Blitzer to ask. But someone should. One of the biggs should ring him up.

What he said.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #34 of 89
8/23/04 at 1:05pm
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Keep moving the bar.

Actually, I'm not sure anyone here is trying to 'move the bar' to protect Kerry. Most people seem to agree that there wasn't a concerted effort to attack Dole's military record while there certainly is one to attack Kerry. I'm not surprised you can find one editorial attacking Dole, as I'm sure you can find one singular attack against Kerry as well. What most people are discussing is the republican party organized attack. The democratic party didn't attack Dole for his efforts.

Again, republicans are scared of Kerry's war record because it's obviously better than Bush's war record, enough so to move a significant portion of the undecided crowd.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
post #35 of 89
8/23/04 at 1:37pm
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
In the SwiftBoat thread, one of the chief contentions is that Bush attacked McCain and now Kerry in the same fashion and that no one on the left would ever have questioned Dole during the 1996 campaign.

Nick

It was not one of the chief contentions.

The chief contention of thread was, obviously, that the swift boat veterans are lying. A secondary contention was that they are being aided and abetted in this endeavor (if not outright organized and funded) by an orchestrated republican smear machine.

So you are seizing on minor point because you couldn't support your absurd claims vis the original thread.


Quote:
I documented an instance where it was brought up. However the reason Clinton probably didn't harp on it too much is because Dole didn't use it as a means of claiming some sort of moral high ground as Kerry has done not only to Bush, but against his Democratic opponents as well.

False. But is your thread about liberals bashing Dole's war record or some theory you have about what would have happened if Clinton had used 527s?
Pretty thin ice, when you're reduced to speculating about how the dems might have behaved as badly as the right wing smear machine if only they had the mechanism.

Quote:
Actually it was beneath Dole to believe that serving your country makes you a superhuman who is better than all others.

Borderline psychotic.

Quote:
The other reason it was never brought up of course is that Dole didn't leave his tour, come back home and accuse the men and women in the military of war crimes and atrocities. Perhaps if he had done that, he would have encountered those same men and women coming back to clear their names decades later.

Well, a least you're getting closer to the truth of the matter: that the whole swift boat thing is payback for what Kerry did after the war. The unnerving thing is that I get the impression that you approve of lying to smear an enemy.

Quote:
Keep moving the bar. First we have, Democratic donors don't fund 527 groups. That was proven wrong. Then we have no one questioned Dole's service. That was wrong. Now we have no one questioned Dole's service... nationally.

I don't know if I'll find the last one. But at least we know the bar keeps moving.

The only bar that's moving is your constant conflation of the swift boat lies with the status of 527s with the desperate effort to find a way, any way, that you can claim that all this shit is somehow reciprocated by the left, which I guess in your mind makes it OK.

Except you haven't demonstrated that and it's not.

Quote:
So let me understand your reasoning. Regardless of the actual events, the reasoning is quite clear.

Dole showcases war service and wounds.

The Nation piece justified.

Kerry showcases war service and wounds.

No questioning justified.

Seems pretty clear to me.

Now here we go, the usual effort to bury the actual points of contention in this kind of torturous knotting of what you actually have asserted and what others have actually asserted.

I guess this is the point where you begin to angrily assert that you have "addressed all the issues" and "proven" things.

Quote:
That's well known. Now all you have to do is show how Dole used the purple heart to come home early so he could criticize the soldiers still fighting World War Two.

Which would be pertinent if you had ever managed to show how Kerry "used" his Purple Hearts to "come home early". Are you saying that he engineered his wounds? It wouldn't surprise me in the least at this point, you seem to have come completely untethered from anything resembling reality.

Talk about drinking the kool-aid. Good lord.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #36 of 89
8/23/04 at 2:41pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
It was not one of the chief contentions.

The chief contention of thread was, obviously, that the swift boat veterans are lying. A secondary contention was that they are being aided and abetted in this endeavor (if not outright organized and funded) by an orchestrated republican smear machine.

So you are seizing on minor point because you couldn't support your absurd claims vis the original thread.

Yes well except those two contentions were never proven. The "proof" was one donor and one flyer.

Laughably, those are "proof" and you somehow seem to think I am dealing with "minor" points.

Quote:
False. But is your thread about liberals bashing Dole's war record or some theory you have about what would have happened if Clinton had used 527s?
Pretty thin ice, when you're reduced to speculating about how the dems might have behaved as badly as the right wing smear machine if only they had the mechanism.

Actually the original contention from Northgate via the Boston Globe was that "No one in 1996 questioned that record." I proved that assertion completely wrong. The speculation was about differences between now and then brought up by members here. Others began harping that although it was critical it wasn't national. I mentioned differences like no bloggers, (no Talking Points Memo for example which was already quoted here today) no mainstream use of the web yet, no 527's, no Drudge, CNBC, MSNBC, or even Fox News.

In otherwords it is like talking about elections before and after television came onto the scene. Eight years ago might not seem like forever but let's just say that there wasn't an AppleInsider to discuss this on back then.

Quote:
Borderline psychotic.

Love you too...

Quote:
Well, a least you're getting closer to the truth of the matter: that the whole swift boat thing is payback for what Kerry did after the war. The unnerving thing is that I get the impression that you approve of lying to smear an enemy.

The lying was done by Kerry. You can look at my sig to take note of what he said about the soldiers still fighting there after he left. Even Kerry has backed off those statements and said they were to strong. He hasn't apologized though.

I'll tell you what Adda, Kerry admitted to commiting these atrocities as well. Kerry has a full book out on his war heroics. Can you find me a source anywhere that tells what atrocities Kerry committed?

From a self-inflicted purple heart to Christmas in Cambodia, Kerry has lied through his teeth about Vietnam in both his own actions and those of the men and women there.

Quote:
The only bar that's moving is your constant conflation of the swift boat lies with the status of 527s with the desperate effort to find a way, any way, that you can claim that all this shit is somehow reciprocated by the left, which I guess in your mind makes it OK.


You are aware that SwiftBoats is a 527 right? You were the actual person who claimed that the $100k donation by a well-known Bush fundraiser fingered them as working for Bush. You were the actual person who claimed the guilt by association. I simply showed the same associations (but to the tune of millions of dollars) on the left. I even did so at your request/challenging.

The reasoning there is yours. If you don't like it, then stop alleging it with regard to Bush and SwiftVets. If it is "shit" then the shit flows both ways.

Quote:
Now here we go, the usual effort to bury the actual points of contention in this kind of torturous knotting of what you actually have asserted and what others have actually asserted.

I didn't bury them. I simply repeated back what North was asserting. If North disagrees with my assessment, he is welcome to clarify what he claimed. North asked if the piece in The Nation wasn't justified since Dole was promoting his war record. Are you somehow claiming that the same wouldn't be true for Kerry?


Quote:
Which would be pertinent if you had ever managed to show how Kerry "used" his Purple Hearts to "come home early". Are you saying that he engineered his wounds? It wouldn't surprise me in the least at this point, you seem to have come completely untethered from anything resembling reality.

Kerry used three and out to get reassigned. Are you denying that? Kerry repeatedly requested his first purple heart and had it treated by a medical professional to apply bactine and a band-aid. According to the medical records, the third purple heart was awarded for a bruised arm. Kerry claimed a second mine hit his boat and caused the shrapnel in his buttocks. There is no record of damage to his boat or of repair for a mine going off.

Boston Globe
Quote:
Rassmann said that he has always believed that Kerry got the third Purple Heart solely for the injury to his arm as a result of the explosion in the water.

Can you find any other swift boat veteran who took three and out Adda? Find me anyone else. Find me someone who requested reassignment for injuries that required band-aids and never required them to miss a day of duty.

You find one other person and I'll at least question the assertions about Kerry, but so far he appears to be the only person to have done it. He ignored the spirit of those rules and bent them in his favor from the get go in order to be able to leave early and come how to make a name for himself accusing others of crimes.

Dole never did that. As a result Dole doesn't have a group following him around analyzing what he did since he didn't accuse anyone of war crimes. Dole didn't come home and say, "My officers knew about and commanded me to commit atrocities." If Dole had done that, you can bet that people would be looking into his background.

As they say, don't cast stones when you live in a glass house. Kerry started chucking rocks back in 1972-73. Dole never disparaged his fellow veterans.

Nick

Edit: Confused Adda and Pfflam

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #37 of 89
8/23/04 at 2:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Actually, I'm not sure anyone here is trying to 'move the bar' to protect Kerry. Most people seem to agree that there wasn't a concerted effort to attack Dole's military record while there certainly is one to attack Kerry. I'm not surprised you can find one editorial attacking Dole, as I'm sure you can find one singular attack against Kerry as well. What most people are discussing is the republican party organized attack. The democratic party didn't attack Dole for his efforts.

Again, republicans are scared of Kerry's war record because it's obviously better than Bush's war record, enough so to move a significant portion of the undecided crowd.

Did Dole help publish a book in 1996 that accused many of the people he served with of being incompetent or war criminals?

Kerry did in January of this year.

Is it surprising that a group attacked in the book would respond? I don't believe so. I also don't think one donor makes them a Republican front group.

Finally did Dole claim Clinton was an incompetent president because of his type or lack of service? Kerry has claimed this about Bush.

So we can see actions on Kerry's part to bring about the reactions that have occured against him.

Dole didn't take those actions and as a result, didn't have as much of a reaction either.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #38 of 89
8/23/04 at 3:11pm
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman

Boy . . . I can sure tell how you read my posts because you are quoting someone else and then saying 'pfflam' . . .

Not sure if you forgot in the middle of ranti . . . mean writing, that you were respondng to addabox, or if you were thinking that you'd kill two birds?

Yes, Kerry said that he too used 50cals and Burned Hutches and fired in free-fire zones . . .

Let's take him to the Hague!
Of course the military felt that he should get medals unstead . . .in fact, I thnk that the point was was that they seemed to encourage this sort of fighting and even only gave them 50cals . . .

But really . . . the silliest thing is this unbelievable . . . I mean truly unbelievably STUPID belief that he was a coward for only taking skin wounds!!
Or deciding that three injuries was enough!!

How dare you, a molly cottled ex-"music student", teacher say that someone who spent three years in the armed services in time of war, requested EXTREMELY dangerous duty and was injured enough for the military to confer a medal, (despite what a Doctor who probably never even saw him says) how dare you call him a coward

The mere fact tht we are still listening to you after you say such utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly STUPID things . . . that are also gutterball-low and sleazy, is beyond me?!

I guess it means that the slander machine wins in that we are still arguing way beyond any rational or reasonable sense . . . they forced Kerry into an absurd defence through tried-and-true means!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #39 of 89
8/23/04 at 3:24pm
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
The mere fact tht we are still listening to you after you say such utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly STUPID things . . . that are also gutterball-low and sleazy, is beyond me?!

I guess it means that the slander machine wins in that we are still arguing way beyond any rational or reasonable sense . . . they forced Kerry into an absurd defence through tried-and-true means!

Thank you.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #40 of 89
8/23/04 at 3:24pm
Why does Bush keep trying to pretend that 527s are all evil liberal fronts for the Kerry campaign? He and his wife support any number of conservative 527s, including the National Federation for Republican Women, whose magazine cover they currently grace. And Lord knows they benefit from them.

The National Republican Congressional Committee and National Republican Senatorial Committee -- two 527s that are, um, Republican -- raised a whopping $24 million in July at the "President's Dinner," one of the largest fundraising events of the year that stars the big man himself. $24 million. I guess those 527s can come in handy sometimes after all.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Dole 1996-Let's attack a vet.