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Dole 1996-Let's attack a vet. - Page 2

post #41 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Boy . . . I can sure tell how you read my posts because you are quoting someone else and then saying 'pfflam' . . .

Not sure if you forgot in the middle of ranti . . . mean writing, that you were respondng to addabox, or if you were thinking that you'd kill two birds?

Yes, Kerry said that he too used 50cals and Burned Hutches and fired in free-fire zones . . .

Let's take him to the Hague!
Of course the military felt that he should get medals unstead . . .in fact, I thnk that the point was was that they seemed to encourage this sort of fighting and even only gave them 50cals . . .

But really . . . the silliest thing is this unbelievable . . . I mean truly unbelievably STUPID belief that he was a coward for only taking skin wounds!!
Or deciding that three injuries was enough!!

How dare you, a molly cottled ex-"music student", teacher say that someone who spent three years in the armed services in time of war, requested EXTREMELY dangerous duty and was injured enough for the military to confer a medal, (despite what a Doctor who probably never even saw him says) how dare you call him a coward

The mere fact tht we are still listening to you after you say such utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly STUPID things . . . that are also gutterball-low and sleazy, is beyond me?!

I guess it means that the slander machine wins in that we are still arguing way beyond any rational or reasonable sense . . . they forced Kerry into an absurd defence through tried-and-true means!

Hahahaha, now you are complaining about reading my posts. I suppose the other two choices are moving out of Wisconsin or getting employed.

I'm sure you'll choose, reading my posts still.

Remember Pfflam, watch out when you go to the ice cream parlor. They're watching out for you!


Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #42 of 89
I probabl make more as an adjunt than you do in high school . . . why do you keep bringing that up anyway?

But anyway, notice that in your post that you are quoting addabox yet mentioning my name . . . what's up with that?
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #43 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
]Did Dole help publish a book in 1996 that accused many of the people he served with of being incompetent or war criminals?

Kerry did in January of this year.

Is it surprising that a group attacked in the book would respond? I don't believe so. I also don't think one donor makes them a Republican front group.

Responding is saying "we think it was wrong when Senator Kerry stood before Congress 30 years ago and read the testimony of veterans. We think Vietnam was a good and just war and Kerry was wrong when he said otherwise".

That, of course, is not what happened. Or do you just think that feeling "attacked" gives you carte blanche to say any slanderous thing you want?

Quote:
Finally did Dole claim Clinton was an incompetent president because of his type or lack of service? Kerry has claimed this about Bush.

(sigh) Are you just genetically incapable of not making shit up when it comes to Kerry?

Quote:
So we can see actions on Kerry's part to bring about the reactions that have occured against him.

Dole didn't take those actions and as a result, didn't have as much of a reaction either.

Nick

Is that what we can see? Because all I can see is some bitter vets willing to do the republican party's dirty work because of a grudge they've been harboring for 30 years.

But again, you seem feel that by offending anyone, Kerry richly deserves whatever mud that can be thrown.

Which is a really, um.... sleazed out stance.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #44 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
I probabl make more as an adjunt than you do in high school . . . why do you keep bringing that up anyway?

But anyway, notice that in your post that you are quoting addabox yet mentioning my name . . . what's up with that?

High school? I don't teach high school.

I fixed the post. What was up with it? Who knows? Probably had the wrong tab open in Mozilla for a minute or two.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #45 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Responding is saying "we think it was wrong when Senator Kerry stood before Congress 30 years ago and read the testimony of veterans. We think Vietnam was a good and just war and Kerry was wrong when he said otherwise".

That, of course, is not what happened. Or do you just think that feeling "attacked" gives you carte blanche to say any slanderous thing you want?



(sigh) Are you just genetically incapable of not making shit up when it comes to Kerry?



Is that what we can see? Because all I can see is some bitter vets willing to do the republican party's dirty work because of a grudge they've been harboring for 30 years.

But again, you seem feel that by offending anyone, Kerry richly deserves whatever mud that can be thrown.

Which is a really, um.... sleazed out stance.

Try the decaf.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #46 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Try the decaf.

Nick


So in the end as you can see you really didn't win anybody over or prove anything. Other than you can get difficult when backed into a corner.

So in the end you really didn't accomplish anything.
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #47 of 89
Oh hell, let's try this: we'll really narrow it down so there can be no ambiguity.

Trumptman, you have asserted that Kerry called Bush "an incompetent president because of his type or lack of service".

Can you show any link at all to such a statement. It should be pretty easy, after all, thems fightin' words and surely would have gotten a lot of coverage.

If not, will you please retract this statement. There are already far to many unsubstantiated claims being made in this and other threads.
They just keep piling up, and I think a little house cleaning is in order.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #48 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Oh hell, let's try this: we'll really narrow it down so there can be no ambiguity.

Trumptman, you have asserted that Kerry called Bush "an incompetent president because of his type or lack of service".

Can you show any link at all to such a statement. It should be pretty easy, after all, thems fightin' words and surely would have gotten a lot of coverage.

If not, will you please retract this statement. There are already far to many unsubstantiated claims being made in this and other threads.
They just keep piling up, and I think a little house cleaning is in order.

A quick look up found this....

Boston

Quote:
COLUMBIA, S.C. -- Presidential candidate John F. Kerry yesterday took aim at Republicans for questioning Democrats' patriotism, and several fellow military veterans blasted President Bush as a failed commander in chief who once dodged military service and suffers from never having learned the lessons of war.

These are part of the comments that had people going after Cleland who was acting as a Kerry surrogate.

Quote:
"We need somebody who has felt the sting of battle, not someone who didn't even complete his tour stateside in the Guard," said Cleland

We will see if that will satisfy you. I mean you already claim that nothing I said in any of the other threads was proof. So I'm not going to waste too much time search for that which you will yet again dismiss.

That's a decent start though.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #49 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
So in the end as you can see you really didn't win anybody over or prove anything. Other than you can get difficult when backed into a corner.

So in the end you really didn't accomplish anything.

There are people who read these threads and can be convinced. When they watch you dismiss compelling arguments with one line glib statements, they are probably even more convinced.

Don't assume you are the target.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #50 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
A quick look up found this....

Boston



These are part of the comments that had people going after Cleland who was acting as a Kerry surrogate.



We will see if that will satisfy you. I mean you already claim that nothing I said in any of the other threads was proof. So I'm not going to waste too much time search for that which you will yet again dismiss.

That's a decent start though.

Nick

Oh. So when you say " Kerry called Bush an incompetent president because of his type or lack of service", you mean other people said something along those lines.

And if I don't accept this as "proof" it's apparently because I just won't be satisfied.

Neat-o.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #51 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Oh hell, let's try this: we'll really narrow it down so there can be no ambiguity.

Trumptman, you have asserted that Kerry called Bush "an incompetent president because of his type or lack of service".

Can you show any link at all to such a statement. It should be pretty easy, after all, thems fightin' words and surely would have gotten a lot of coverage.

If not, will you please retract this statement. There are already far to many unsubstantiated claims being made in this and other threads.
They just keep piling up, and I think a little house cleaning is in order.

I know it was not directed at me, but I remember many instances where this subject came up:

"John Kerry was a warrior. George Bush was a draft dodger," Kerry booster Del Sandusky told a Florida audience in July, and as to wether or not he fullfilled his commitment in February, ""Just because you get an honorable discharge does not in fact answer that question."

"I've never made any judgments about any choice somebody made about avoiding the draft, about going to Canada, about going to jail, about being a conscientious objector, or going into the National Guard. These are choices people make." Said Kerry, which he was widely criticized for.

"Those of us who were in the military wonder how it is that someone who is supposedly serving on active duty, having taken that oath, can miss a whole year of service without even explaining where it went," said Kerry.

Mr. Cleland said "We need somebody who felt the sting of battle, not someone who didn't even complete his tour stateside in the Guard." "This President who wants to be viewed as a strong leader in a time of war, he doesn't know a darn thing about war," he said. "This country is now paying dearly for George Bush's inexperience in war."

"I've fought for my country. I know what it means to defend my nation," Kerry said in Apri. "This president can't even prove he actually showed up for duty in the National Guard."

"George Bush never served in our military in our country. He didn't show up when he should have showed up. And there's John Kerry on the stage with a chest full of medals that he earned by saving the lives of American soldiers. So, as John Kerry says, `Bring it on!' " said Terry McAuliffe on behalf of JK.

I think a lot of veterans are going to be very angry at a President who can't account for his own service in the National Guard - and a vice president who got every deferment in the world and decided he had better things to do - criticizing somebody who fought for their country and served," Kerry said in April.

Spin if you must, but this has long been the aspersions cast by the Kerry camp.

Edit: Put quotation in right spot. addabox pointed out my mistake by calling me a liar. Not the best approach, but hey whatever works.
post #52 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I know it was not directed at me, but I remember many instances where this subject came up:

"John Kerry was a warrior. George Bush was a draft dodger," Kerry booster Del Sandusky told a Florida audience in July, and as to wether or not he fullfilled his commitment in February, ""Just because you get an honorable discharge does not in fact answer that question."

"I've never made any judgments about any choice somebody made about avoiding the draft, about going to Canada, about going to jail, about being a conscientious objector, or going into the National Guard. These are choices people make." Said Kerry, which he was widely criticized for.

"Those of us who were in the military wonder how it is that someone who is supposedly serving on active duty, having taken that oath, can miss a whole year of service without even explaining where it went," said Kerry.

Mr. Cleland said "We need somebody who felt the sting of battle, not someone who didn't even complete his tour stateside in the Guard."

"I've fought for my country. I know what it means to defend my nation," Kerry said in Apri. "This president can't even prove he actually showed up for duty in the National Guard."

"George Bush never served in our military in our country. He didn't show up when he should have showed up. And there's John Kerry on the stage with a chest full of medals that he earned by saving the lives of American soldiers. So, as John Kerry says, `Bring it on!' " said Terry McAuliffe on behalf of JK.

I think a lot of veterans are going to be very angry at a President who can't account for his own service in the National Guard - and a vice president who got every deferment in the world and decided he had better things to do - criticizing somebody who fought for their country and served," Kerry said in April. "This President who wants to be viewed as a strong leader in a time of war, he doesn't know a darn thing about war," he said. "This country is now paying dearly for George Bush's inexperience in war."

Spin if you must, but this has long been the aspersions cast by the Kerry camp.

Nice try, liar.

You've edited Kerry's remarks together with the remarks of others to make it appear as if Kerry has been more critical than he has.

Here's the actual story (note that all your quotes came from a single event, brought on by the beginning of the Bush smear campaign).

"This President who wants to be viewed as a strong leader in a time of war, he doesn't know a darn thing about war," he said. "This country is now paying dearly for George Bush's inexperience in war." is from Max Cleland.

Kerry is justifiably angry that a guy like Bush is trying to paint a guy like Kerry as a coward or worse, but he never has said that Bush is unfit for office or can't prosecute the war on terror because he didn't serve, which was Trumpt's allegation. (Still waiting for that retraction, guy).
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #53 of 89
Trumptman,

If it's OK for Dole to attack Kerry's war record, is it now OK for Kerry to attack Bush's record?

Is it OK or not?
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #54 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Nice try, liar.

You've edited Kerry's remarks together with the remarks of others to make it appear as if Kerry has been more critical than he has.

Here's the actual story (note that all your quotes came from a single event, brought on by the beginning of the Bush smear campaign).

"This President who wants to be viewed as a strong leader in a time of war, he doesn't know a darn thing about war," he said. "This country is now paying dearly for George Bush's inexperience in war." is from Max Cleland.

Kerry is justifiably angry that a guy like Bush is trying to paint a guy like Kerry as a coward or worse, but he never has said that Bush is unfit for office or can't prosecute the war on terror because he didn't serve, which was Trumpt's allegation. (Still waiting for that retraction, guy).

Well, you see, the name calling starts...

I got these quotes from multiple sources and then verified them with others. I did nothing more than cut the exact quotations from articles from CNN and Reuters and AP and Boston Globe among others. The stories were easily found using google and lycos and go.com.

I guess the facts don't matter.
post #55 of 89
Its not a name if its true
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #56 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Nice try, liar.

You've edited Kerry's remarks together with the remarks of others to make it appear as if Kerry has been more critical than he has.

Here's the actual story (note that all your quotes came from a single event, brought on by the beginning of the Bush smear campaign).

"This President who wants to be viewed as a strong leader in a time of war, he doesn't know a darn thing about war," he said. "This country is now paying dearly for George Bush's inexperience in war." is from Max Cleland.

Kerry is justifiably angry that a guy like Bush is trying to paint a guy like Kerry as a coward or worse, but he never has said that Bush is unfit for office or can't prosecute the war on terror because he didn't serve, which was Trumpt's allegation. (Still waiting for that retraction, guy).

Oh yeah, a couple of things:

1. I only added the months that the quotes occurred, according to the date it was reported.

2. The story you quoted was one that I read, but it only tells a small bit of what was said by Kerry and it is not necessarily chronological nor does it specify dates.

3. Fine I pasted the Cleland, I will go back and edit that so it is correct. I am not sure how that makes a huge difference when he is Kerry's trophy amputee.

So go back and reread my post after I correct my mistake. Then call me a liar again. please.
post #57 of 89
Originally posted by NaplesX
Quote:
Well, you see, the name calling starts...

I got these quotes from multiple sources and then verified them with others. I did nothing more than cut the exact quotations from articles from CNN and Reuters and AP and Boston Globe among others. The stories were easily found using google and lycos and go.com.

I guess the facts don't matter.


Facts matter, which is why they can't be left in the hands of people who have no use for them.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #58 of 89
[QUOTE]Originally posted by addabox
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Well, you see, the name calling starts...

I got these quotes from multiple sources and then verified them with others. I did nothing more than cut the exact quotations from articles from CNN and Reuters and AP and Boston Globe among others. The stories were easily found using google and lycos and go.com.

I guess the facts don't matter.

Facts matter, which is why they can't be left in the hands of people who have no use for them.

...which you have personally illustrated for us.

I think we all know how you feel about facts...
post #59 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
...which you have personally illustrated for us.

I think we all know how you feel about facts...

Yes, I think we do. I think they should be defended in the face of vicious slander, mindless boosterism, revisionist history, torturous "logic", deliberate misrepresentations, and good old lies.

It would appear that the people you have aligned yourself with regard facts as an inconvenience that can be handily extinguished with the help of, well, people like you.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #60 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Trumptman,

If it's OK for Dole to attack Kerry's war record, is it now OK for Kerry to attack Bush's record?

Is it OK or not?

Sure Kerry can attack Bush's record. However I believe both of us are smart enough to know that both candidates employ surrogates for their attacks. Dole attacked Kerry. Cleland attacked Bush.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #61 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Yes, I think we do. I think they should be defended in the face of vicious slander, mindless boosterism, revisionist history, torturous "logic", deliberate misrepresentations, and good old lies.

It would appear that the people you have aligned yourself with regard facts as an inconvenience that can be handily extinguished with the help of, well, people like you.

You know Adda, the rest of us consider facts to be more than that with which we agree. I posted a quickie, knowing that there really is no means of persuading you. NaplesX did a better job of finding quotes. I found a couple relating to Pelosi and Clinton as well, but hey why worry about satisfying your question when it clearly is rhetorical and you already know what you want to hear.

You've pissed and moaned through multiple threads about Bush using surrogate speakers for his dirty work yet clearly would not accept the same in reverse. Do you have any quotes where Bush directly questions Kerry's service? Of course not. Yet if I suggested to you that it hasn't been said because it didn't come from his exact mouth, you would laugh out loud.

Which is exactly what your responses have brought from me. So thanks, I enjoy the laugh. I assure you that your strident venom is convincing to no one.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #62 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
You know Adda, the rest of us consider facts to be more than that with which we agree. I posted a quickie, knowing that there really is no means of persuading you. NaplesX did a better job of finding quotes. I found a couple relating to Pelosi and Clinton as well, but hey why worry about satisfying your question when it clearly is rhetorical and you already know what you want to hear.

You've pissed and moaned through multiple threads about Bush using surrogate speakers for his dirty work yet clearly would not accept the same in reverse. Do you have any quotes where Bush directly questions Kerry's service? Of course not. Yet if I suggested to you that it hasn't been said because it didn't come from his exact mouth, you would laugh out loud.

Which is exactly what your responses have brought from me. So thanks, I enjoy the laugh. I assure you that your strident venom is convincing to no one.

Nick

Oooh! Strident venom! I believe that comes from the Tennessee Walking Snake....

Now, as to Kerry using surrogates to say things that are too harsh for a presidential candidate to say, of course. I don't recall contesting the notion.

But that's not what you alleged, is it? Now you want it understood that "Kerry said" means "Kerry's surrogates said" and if that's what you want to say now, fine. I have no quarrel with that.

But if I announced in a thread that Bush said "Kerry's a dirty coward", and when you asked when the hell did he say that I pointed to his "surrogates", you wouldn't let that stand, would you Nick? Come on, Nicky nick nick you little scamp, you would be fair dripping with scorn, wouldn't you, you old knucklehead you.

You thin skinned old hypocrite, you.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #63 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Yes, I think we do. I think they should be defended in the face of vicious slander, mindless boosterism, revisionist history, torturous "logic", deliberate misrepresentations, and good old lies.

It would appear that the people you have aligned yourself with regard facts as an inconvenience that can be handily extinguished with the help of, well, people like you.

yeah I know i should disavow Google, Lycos, AP, Reuters, CNN, and MSNBC. I knew I should have never aligned myself with those flakes.

Adda... the names are flying off of your fingertips...

Does this strengthen your argument?
post #64 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
yeah I know i should disavow Google, Lycos, AP, Reuters, CNN, and MSNBC. I knew I should have never aligned myself with those flakes.

You forgot "Foogle" and "Clinton Body Count" among others.
post #65 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
When they watch you dismiss compelling arguments with one line glib statements
Nick

What, like Try the decaf.
?
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post #66 of 89
This thread is starting to become circular ...
Without more real substance, we would consider a lock.
post #67 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Oooh! Strident venom! I believe that comes from the Tennessee Walking Snake....

Now, as to Kerry using surrogates to say things that are too harsh for a presidential candidate to say, of course. I don't recall contesting the notion.

But that's not what you alleged, is it? Now you want it understood that "Kerry said" means "Kerry's surrogates said" and if that's what you want to say now, fine. I have no quarrel with that.

But if I announced in a thread that Bush said "Kerry's a dirty coward", and when you asked when the hell did he say that I pointed to his "surrogates", you wouldn't let that stand, would you Nick? Come on, Nicky nick nick you little scamp, you would be fair dripping with scorn, wouldn't you, you old knucklehead you.

You thin skinned old hypocrite, you.

So basically, we'll assume the answer to the Bush question is no then.

People are responsible for the actions of their campaigns. I would accept surrogates. Especially if they were speaking with Kerry or Bush at the same podium on the same day as was the case with Kerry.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #68 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
There are people who read these threads and can be convinced. When they watch you dismiss compelling arguments with one line glib statements, they are probably even more convinced.

Don't assume you are the target.

Nick

Trumpy the thing is what compelling arguments are you referring to?

You keep saying the same rhetorical statements over and over again. Then you attempt to agument them with really weak reasoning and a dash of your own speculation.

Please. Most of what you've said has been countered or discredited already.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #69 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
Trumpy the thing is what compelling arguments are you referring to?

You keep saying the same rhetorical statements over and over again. Then you attempt to agument them with really weak reasoning and a dash of your own speculation.

Please. Most of what you've said has been countered or discredited already.

jimmac,

They aren't compelling to someone who doesn't care to be convinced. But anyone to the right of say, Marx probably considers the points valid. You don't care to see any fault with Kerry, and that is fine for you. There are folks who see no fault with Bush as well, but I specifically have slammed him for spending, immigration and trade.

I'll tell you what jimmac, why don't you tell me some faults of Kerry.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #70 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
jimmac,

They aren't compelling to someone who doesn't care to be convinced. But anyone to the right of say, Marx probably considers the points valid. You don't care to see any fault with Kerry, and that is fine for you. There are folks who see no fault with Bush as well, but I specifically have slammed him for spending, immigration and trade.

I'll tell you what jimmac, why don't you tell me some faults of Kerry.

Nick

Kerry isn't perfect. However given Bush's actions over the last 4 years including an unnecessary war compel me to choose him over Bush any day.

-----------------------------------------------------------
" but I specifically have slammed him for spending, immigration and trade. "

-----------------------------------------------------------

So I take it you're voting for Kerry then?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #71 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
Kerry isn't perfect. However given Bush's actions over the last 4 years including an unnecessary war compel me to choose him over Bush any day.

-----------------------------------------------------------
" but I specifically have slammed him for spending, immigration and trade. "

-----------------------------------------------------------

So I take it you're voting for Kerry then?

Actually, I've stated that if Kerry dealt with any of those three issues in either a credible manner and in a manner different from Bush, he would have my vote.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #72 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
jimmac,

They aren't compelling to someone who doesn't care to be convinced. But anyone to the right of say, Marx probably considers the points valid. You don't care to see any fault with Kerry, and that is fine for you. There are folks who see no fault with Bush as well, but I specifically have slammed him for spending, immigration and trade.

I'll tell you what jimmac, why don't you tell me some faults of Kerry.

Nick

Come on, like that will happen.

Even if he does it won't be the obvious and big faults, and he will probably say something like "At least he can't f*** things up any worse than the Shrub" or some other diversionary answer.

You're trying to win a logical argument with people that only use the emotional part of their brain.

It's a losing proposition for the most part, you have to dumb down the argument to get to something they can relate to. I am not saying that they are dumb, just that it is dumb to let emotion take total control of your reasoning skills.

Edit: Man am I good. In the ten minutes that it took me to read his post start to replyu take a short brake, and come back and finish he did exactly what I said he would do. Either I am psychic or Jimmac is all to predictable.
post #73 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
"At least he can't f*** things up any worse than the Shrub" or some other diversionary answer.

But this is actually a good argument.

It would be genuinely difficult to fuck things up any worse than your current President, who would still be an international laughing stockas he was before 9/11if the rest of the world wasn't so scared of what he's turned America into.
post #74 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
So basically, we'll assume the answer to the Bush question is no then.

People are responsible for the actions of their campaigns. I would accept surrogates. Especially if they were speaking with Kerry or Bush at the same podium on the same day as was the case with Kerry.

Nick

Huh.

So you feel it's OK to attribute a direct quote to someone if it is spoken by what you may regard as a "surrogate".

That's a pretty novel theory of attribution, but I'll be sure to bear it in mind the next time I want to arbitrarily slander someone.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #75 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Huh.

So you feel it's OK to attribute a direct quote to someone if it is spoken by what you may regard as a "surrogate".

That's a pretty novel theory of attribution, but I'll be sure to bear it in mind the next time I want to arbitrarily slander someone.

Sure, you can even claim I learned it from you.

Quote:
I think there is at least the chance that the "story" will become why the Bush administration is willing to tacitly endorse this kind of destructive ugliness.

And they are scurrilous attacks. You know it. I know it. They are not "legitimate questions about Kerry's service record that are inevitable because he's the one that brought it up". We both know that Karl Rove is on record as believing the best way to go after an opponent is to attack their perceived strongest quality.

Recognize those words? They're yours.

Here's some more...

Quote:
even after the republican guy Kerry rescued has called it a lie, even knowing that this smear is part of a pattern of Karl Rove orchestrated attacks and is remarkably similar to previous campaigns against veterans

Quote:
If the press decides that there is a narrative thread running through the previous attacks against veterans and the all over viscousness of the Rove era, we might have a chance for some good to come out of this.

Here's a really good one.

Quote:
The larger problem is that political reporting is now only about the horse race and the how things "play". Thus, if Karl Rove decides to have his surrogates start talking about Kerry's secret past as a serial killer, we gets headlines like "Kerry put on defensive by accusations of blood soaked past", complete with "he said/she said" back and forth ("Kerry camp vigorously denies "maddog" rumor, denounces "gutter politics", Vice-president Cheney says "the American people have a right to know").

So as you can see, you completely understand and are willing to condemn actions taken by Republican surrogates. In fact you seem to have a bit of an obsession with Karl Rove as well. But the best part there is you fully explain your understanding of the process. You say, Rove sends these guys out with some talking points and bam, it is an attack that ends up in the news and puts Kerry on his heels. Yet when it is suggested this exact course of action happened with Bush, the National Guard and claims of incompetence, you just can't seem to believe it. You claim it isn't credible.

Your claim is now my laugh of the week. The whole fact that you claim SwiftVets are Bush surrogates and then claim that no one can point to Kerry surrogates is just hysterically funny. Worse still you've argued that left leaning 527's somehow don't count and aren't the same as SwiftBoats. (They aren't, they're much worse)

Bush surrogates and right leaning 527's (right leaning as determined by you) = words out of Bush's mouth that he endorses.

Kerry surrogates and left learning 527's = Can't hold Kerry accountable for them, even when he sends letters through those organization, attends their functions, speaks on stage with said surrogates, etc.


Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #76 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Come on, like that will happen.

Even if he does it won't be the obvious and big faults, and he will probably say something like "At least he can't f*** things up any worse than the Shrub" or some other diversionary answer.

You're trying to win a logical argument with people that only use the emotional part of their brain.

It's a losing proposition for the most part, you have to dumb down the argument to get to something they can relate to. I am not saying that they are dumb, just that it is dumb to let emotion take total control of your reasoning skills.

Edit: Man am I good. In the ten minutes that it took me to read his post start to replyu take a short brake, and come back and finish he did exactly what I said he would do. Either I am psychic or Jimmac is all to predictable.

The reality is that you just feel a little more comfortable coming out now that you've got a die hard-I don't know when to quit-guy like Trumpy posting here.

And talk about dumb down an argument a person has to repeat multiple times while you guys refuse to hear the parts you don't like and keep repeating the same garbage.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #77 of 89
OK we lost the point again.

The premise of this thread was that people attacked Dole's record.

Nationally, in the mainstream, they didn't.

Nick you are full of shit. Unless you want to post say 100 or so mainstream article links to prove otherwise.

Next thread.

Oh and, what's Dole doing now? What's that? Attacking someone's record? I saw him on CNN as a commentator. He's a real dick. A limp one but still a dick.

He's like Rush or Buchanan. Just trying to get on TV to stay famous and rich. He just wants attention. So let's not give him or this thread any.
"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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post #78 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Sure, you can even claim I learned it from you.



Recognize those words? They're yours.

Here's some more...





Here's a really good one.



So as you can see, you completely understand and are willing to condemn actions taken by Republican surrogates. In fact you seem to have a bit of an obsession with Karl Rove as well. But the best part there is you fully explain your understanding of the process. You say, Rove sends these guys out with some talking points and bam, it is an attack that ends up in the news and puts Kerry on his heels. Yet when it is suggested this exact course of action happened with Bush, the National Guard and claims of incompetence, you just can't seem to believe it. You claim it isn't credible.

Your claim is now my laugh of the week. The whole fact that you claim SwiftVets are Bush surrogates and then claim that no one can point to Kerry surrogates is just hysterically funny. Worse still you've argued that left leaning 527's somehow don't count and aren't the same as SwiftBoats. (They aren't, they're much worse)

Bush surrogates and right leaning 527's (right leaning as determined by you) = words out of Bush's mouth that he endorses.

Kerry surrogates and left learning 527's = Can't hold Kerry accountable for them, even when he sends letters through those organization, attends their functions, speaks on stage with said surrogates, etc.


Nick

Here's bullet points so you can be sure to follow along:

--You attributed a direct quote to Kerry

--I contested the quote

--You then attributed it to surrogates, and suggested that I was denying that political surrogates ever spoke on behave of their principles

--I explained that I was perfectly aware that surrogates speak on behalf of their principles, but that was rather different than attributing a direct quote to the principle

--You quote me as saying that Karl Rove's surrogates have been up to no good, apparently thinking that puts the lie to my notion that attributing direct quotes to a principle when his surrogates have spoken is dishonest.

--You profess to find that funny, which it is, but not, I think, for the reasons you imagine.

Please let me know what part of this is too confusing for you so we can continue to sort it out. I have all the time in the world.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #79 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by Aquatic

Oh and, what's Dole doing now? What's that? Attacking someone's record? I saw him on CNN as a commentator. He's a real dick. A limp one but still a dick.

I dunno...Link It looks like the viagra is working.
orange you just glad?
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orange you just glad?
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post #80 of 89
What's truly sickening is how they place the blame for this on Kerry supposedly questioning Bush's record

two problems there:

Kerry did not question Bush's record but said that if Bush wanted to go there etc

and

Bush has no record . . . and to question its existence is a completely different beast than this dispicable display of dishonorable slime that perpetuates itself because it has gotten news

its like someone who is famous for being famous . . . we all know that they have no merit yet we still see their face everywhere.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
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