Bush - Playing Soldier With Someone Else's Medals?

Priceless.

Nice post Groverat, it pretty much sums up these two guys doesnt it. one a hero , one not. One served, one didnt. One came back and spoke the truth the other is still spinning lies, why all these people are blinded by Bush's B.S is beyond me unless they are just stupid, or Republican first and then American.

Republican first. American second.

I'm pretty sure that almost everybody who goes through basic training and can hit a target gets a marksmanship medal in the airforce . . . I know it is that way in the Marines.

But nonetheless, if there is doubt about these medals than it should be pursued, the bush admin's proxie sleaze has opened the door for at least a comparison . . . even if they are legit, it might still be worth looking at.

The problem is is that people are sick of the issue (understandably) and yet, they seem to put the blame on both camps equally, even though it has been a none-stop sleaze-slander on one party's part alone.

And that is the thing that sickens me the most: they simply reared this boat-load of partisan slander-puppets, foisted them on the public until something had to be said in defense and by that time people are so sick of it that any comment from the Kerry Campaign is lumped together with the 'sniping' on this issue . . . he is than seen to have been an equal participant when he was not . . . then his character is sized up negatively by association . . . but through a slight of hand.

It is now getting press as being a bi-campaign tactic when it has NOT been at all . . . Kerry has not brought out Bush's lack of a record with regards to duty even still, except for asking the rhetorical question of 'if you want to go there than we can'

Also, now that the mud has stuck Bush can safely pretend to be 'angry' about the SBV4T tactics (even though members were directly involved with his steering committee) now that the issue has been a non-stop story for the 'media', his timing can play both sides . . . he waited long enough for his 'disavowal' to appear like he wants to take the high-road . .
its just another sleazy move by the masters of sleaze, if they weren't this malicious they would have came out agaisnt these adds along time ago

But you see, it is an old story with these guys: it was thrown at other vets in the same manner, DeLay and Rove are old hands at this pretentious hate-mongering while pretending to be 'good Christians'

I think the real story here is that he actually was a uni-brow, wasn't he? So does he pluck? How... metrosexual.

Be happy, It will all be over in 3 months time.

You can gaurantee that even if Kerry wins, with this posse of ideological bulldogs and their disregard for civility, there will be reason upon reason to hire an army of Kenneth Starrs!

They'll track down the tiniest whiff of nothing after pulling reasons out of thin air (Whitewater!) and use every Public resource available until they find that Kerry didn't wash his hands well enough after pissing.

so, you are an optimist amidst this Republican party of cynical wolves dressed as 'lambs' of G-d.

Bush is going for botox next.

Nick

Yes, im optimistic, short of cheating or fraud I cant see how bush will win.

BTW, whats with people using G-d and Satin? I've seen that a few times in the copule of months I've been here

Botox? Hope he's surrounded by doctors at all times or he might actually drink it.

You got that straight. I'm just as worried about Kerry winning as I am him losing.

"Kerry scratched his butt..IMPEACH!"

I'm hopefull that Bush will not have a second term. I've always said that liberals play way too nice when it comes to conservative attacks. It's time they developed a new strategy and become more organized. I'm not saying they must become like their conservative counterparts but they have to prepare for these attacks. Maybe Clinton should have thought twice before letting little Bill do the thinking. After all they were having a really hard time making anything stick before that. It's not like they won't try so prepare.

(well . . . you asked for it)

I don't use the word 'God' because I couldn't adequately comprehend any concept that would pretend towards 'Omniscience', 'omnipotence' 'omnipresence', etc and the general understandable and definite catagories that people pretend to mean when they use that term.

It is my way of saying that God does not exist as concieved or concievable; whenever that term is used it is woefully inadequate in that it is a human intellectual construction, a human limited concept.
and,
at the same time, I am using a term, but one that is not itself complete, in order to signify the necessarily incomplete understanding, on my part, of the notion discussed.
It is sort of a form of respect for the possibility.

My use of that term is a sort of ethics: My ethics are, in large part, centered around the absolute respect for otherness: both of others (as in other-people) and the 'Other' -as in the concept of 'otherness in all its manifestations: maximally other = G-d, & minimally other = little smudges in the corner of the room . . . respect for otherness also should include the otherness of ourselves to ourselves, and all that we don't know (which is other from us in its not knowness). . .
. . . and since what we 'know' is ensconced within, and given shape, by -in relief against- all that we 'do not know', then even what we 'know' partakes of otherness, has, as a constituent aspect of it, the distance of the unknown -the beyond, the 'other'. . . .

--so: our 'knowledge' is incomplete because of the other of not-knowledge . . . it is, in fact, defined against this 'NOT' . . . so our knowledge is incomplete.
Just as the word G-d is incomplete, in order to respect that which any 'whole' word could never incorporate.

On the other-hand

'satin' I think, is used as a joke, most often, because many times earnest Christians mispell it in idiotic posts about 'evil'.

Ah yes... the Evil Satin and his minions Velourzebub and Polyestaah.
Some say Hell is fat people in spandex.

While seeing Bush's medals gives me a laugh because I accrued more chest candy in my first 3 years than he did as a pilot (NAM, Battle-E, National Defense--aka CNN ribbon, Sea Service, and a couple of others), I don't see anything wrong with the two medals he has. A marksman is easy top get and unit awards are, or can be, gimmes. To get the Unit award Bush only had to be attached to a unit for one day covering the award time frame if I recall correctly. A couple of guys got MUC's on my boat because they flew out to help with an ORSE work-up...

Anyway, faulting Bush for getting his medals alone is not right. It's no better than the attacks on Kerry, though funny. We should be addressing issues and forcing the GOP to do the same.

My 2 cents. Enjoy.

http://www.gruntsmilitary.com/airforce.shtml

here's a start.

So I'm checking that site and find a listing of all the Nimitz-Class Carriers.
(Since a few visit our harbour every year and I can read the reg numbers).
It's a bit out of date since the Reagan is now in service, as I've noted below, but check the last one...


Americans love Reagan, so no surprise he gets a grand ship, but Bush I ???
Unless they're going back to his WWII record as a carrier fighter pilot, how does he rate?
Generally not thought one of the great Presidencies, (or victors if we consider Iraq I led to a sequel )

Can somebody explain the process of naming a Billion bucks of boat here?
Is the committee stacked with former appointees of these guys?
Can't imagine a modern democrat getting a carrier. (Though JFK gets his own class of them).

It is political but Jimmy Carter got his own boat. Granted the USS Jimmy Carter is a Seawolf class destined to never leave port due to design flaws, but that's inconsequential...

That seems fitting.

I just realized that my father has a shit load more medals than Kerry. So he wins the hero race! Forget the fact that my father never saw combat.

Number of ribbons/medals (there is a different between the two even in the Navy) doesn't mean a whole lot. What's important is how high on the chart they fall.

Ribbons are displayed by rank letf to right, top to bottom. Kerrys top row: Silver Star, Bronze Star. These are honorous medals given to individuals. Second row: Purple hear--wounded in combat, Combat action--Kerry got shot at, And a PUC--Unit award (This one is harder to get than a MUC but it's still a unit award). Third row: NUC--another unit commendation, and the rest are gimmies.

I don't have my dd214 handy and I've been out for some time now but I think I had 3 full rows myself (maybe 2 2/3). Of those only one, my NAM, was given to me as an individual (good conduct aside).

I'll gladly defer to a man with a silver and a bronze star over my little NAM. A silver star is pretty high on the list of medals...

Hey faust, this peaked my interest. Do you have anymore information on this type of boat? I don't care who it is named after, I'm more interested in it not being used because of design flaws.

Nick

I wish I could. Some of the stuff I know is classified (or was). I'll just say there's a reason the ship was commissioned in 1997 and has done nothing more than sea trials since.

This is a breif history of the LA.
http://www.combatindex.com/hardware/...88_detail.html

Note the comission date and scroll down to the history. The ship deployed a year ofter commission.

This is a breif history of the Wolf. Speaks for itself.
http://www.combatindex.com/hardware/...21_detail.html

And the Connecticuit(second of the SeaWolf class).
http://www.combatindex.com/hardware/...22_detail.html

The Wolf class is quiet and fast but it's exceedingly expensive and has a couple of major design flaws which caused the program to be canceled in 1992 I believe is the correct year.

Google Seawolf, SSN-21, USS Connecticuit, or SSN-22. I'm sure some answers will pop up.

Enjoy.

My daddy has more medals that your daddy . .

gauranteed!

I have less medals than any of you. (zero record).

My grandfather did have several medals : Chevalier de la legion d'honneur, officier de l'ordre du merite, and many others. He had a silver cigar box, wich was a personal gift of De Gaulle, and unlike Papon was a resistant, who risked his life. an historian made a thesis about him, that was resumed in an article of the communist newspaper L'humanité (my grandfather was not a commie, in fact I ignore his political orientation).

Awesome . . . Pictures?

Some links : Article about my grand father : Paul Lanquetin.

http://www.humanite.presse.fr/journa...8-01-06-345236

http://www.humanite.presse.fr/popup_...article=345236

NOtes : Pierre Fugain who was at the funeral of my grand father was the father of the famous french singer Michel Fugain.

For the pictures, I don't have currently. I Hope I will find an interesting one, figuring my grand father my grand mother and many others people including Colette and michel Simon the famous french actor.

edit
-

just saw powerdoc's links

Cool . . .

I know that my mother's oldest sister did some stuff for the La Ressistance (sp?)
supposedly did some gun-running . . . my mother was too young.

My grand father didn't speaked much of this events. When he had his brain attack, he said stranges things in a sort of awake dream about the period of liberation. I have the feeling that everything was not rose.

What are the military record of your father ?

My grandfather was a Rhodes Scholar. So was Bill Clinton.

Powerdoc's grandfather was a war hero. So was John Kerry.

Trumptman's grandfather was a ________. So was George W. Bush.


Please fill in the blank.

My grandfather built ships in Mobile, AL during the war. They gave him an asbestos smock, mask, and gloves and told him it would be fireproof.

He died of asbestosis in 1994.

Those damned failed liberal policies of the 1960's and 1970's!

No... seriously. We have liberal progress to thank for the fact that fewer people will be affected the way Scott's grandfather was. I'm sorry for your loss, Scott.

Midwinter : sorry to ear that, it's incredible the number of people who died of abestos. Not so incredible the comment he had after finishing his duty
Luckily the safety rules at work have increased. Let's expect that such disaster should not be allowed anymore.

Tonton : interesting bibliography and interesting publications

For my 500th post, I would like to state that GWB is a nut case.

Thxs.

On the topic of spelling God as G-d because you/we don't comprehend the concept: Why don't you label sex as s-x because there are freaked out techniques you haven't tried yet? God is a proper noun in the English language, lets treat it as such.

Wasn't his point that G-d admits the limitations both of his (?) ability to understand the idea of God and a recognition that the concept itself is limited through its status as human construction?

It's a nice and honorable way to approach the topic, I think.

Isn't that Olmstead fellow seriously revered among that Bucky Fuller generation of Intellectual/artists?

Seems that I remember that name.

and to answer Powerdoc's question: My father was a B-17 pilot early in the war, before fighter escort. He was the youngest Colonel in the Army at the time. He took part in the infamous Schweinfurt raids where they lost up to 75% of the planes and he also took part in the first daylight raid on German soil by Americans, and lead the first American raid on Berlin . . . . at one point he was the commander of over 800 planes.
He has two purple hearts, but I doubt the doctor would remember him!
and he once was in a mid-air collision.
He has a bunch of other medals including the Distinguished Flying Cross and some other big ones I can't remember.
He has some great stories like once when his plane was crippled and he hobbled back to Britain on one/sporadic/two engines, at about 150 feet up . . . he said that the Germans on the coast wall batteries were diving over the walls as he flew over. . . and lots of other great stories that I loved to hear when I was young

I still can't believe what he went through, when I was young I thought I understood, but today, when I see a documentary and they show a B-17 going down it just wrenches my stomach . . . to know that there were ten young men aboard each of those planes . . . and he also has some very sad stories about visiting injured friends who had just gotten married and then going back to see them and they were dead

Men of his generation didn't talk about post-traumatic stress disorder, but I know that it really effected my dad. He once told me about being in a train station after his tours were over and nearly losing sanity and being unable to move . . . and for my father to admit something like that it must have been something serious. i also know that he drank quite heavily for a while after the war . . .

He told me about the different ways that some of the men would deal with the stress . . . one guy, he said, would wake up and everymorning would fire a handgun through the ceiling while yelling 'Yyeeaaaw'

anyway. . . . but with all that he went to Korea and then volunteered and did a year in Vietnam as well . . . \