or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Kerry and 527's-We make beautiful love together
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Kerry and 527's-We make beautiful love together

post #1 of 64
Thread Starter 
Seems Newsmax was able to find a lot more linking John Kerry and the 527's than a common donor and a flyer.

"Movin' to the music together

Examples...

*The same site still posts a letter to MoveOn members from John Kerry, dated June 17, 2003.

*The East Bay for Kerry/MoveOn House party on December 7th combined the forces of two grass-roots organizations based in San Francisco East Bay Area. We had 200 guests eating, drinking, and watching the MoveOn Documentary Uncovered featuring Joseph Wilson and Rand Beers from the Kerry campaign.

*The Democratic Party is partnering with MoveOn.org, People for the American Way, Campaign for America's Future, and dozens of other groups representing millions of Americans to organize a massive public mobilization.

*From the liberal Minneapolis Star Tribune: Sam Kaplan, one of Kerry's biggest and earliest fundraisers in Minnesota, said he plans to continue raising money working with Americans [sic] Coming Together. (Hint to the Star Tribune: That pro-Kerry group calls itself America Coming Together.)

*As NewsMax.com reported Sunday, Kerry refuses to fire Zach Exley, a campaign staffer who was a director for MoveOn.org.

*And, of course, Jim Jordan, formerly Kerrys campaign manager, continues his work at the pro-Kerry Media Fund.


Oh, man... I think this quote sums it up best.

Quote:
"Senator Kerry, who supported the Bipartisan Campaign Finance Reform Act, is now the beneficiary of the single largest conspiracy to violate campaign-finance laws in history," RNC Chief Counsel Jill Holtzman Vogel said at the time.

We aren't talking about some accidental coordination. It is clear, and documented amazingly enough, on the DNC's own website.



Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #2 of 64
Yeah, I'd say that some of that is incriminating . . . but alot of it is like saying 'donors', . . . or, they saw the same movie at the same time . . . which isn't incriminating

the thing that is incriminating is the link with the persons that still work with Kerry . . .

So, MoveOn hasn't lied in the same manner that SBV$T have . . . and if they have I want to see it.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #3 of 64
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Yeah, I'd say that some of that is incriminating . . . but alot of it is like saying 'donors', . . . or, they saw the same movie at the same time . . . which isn't incriminating

the thing that is incriminating is the link with the persons that still work with Kerry . . .

So, MoveOn hasn't lied in the same manner that SBV$T have . . . and if they have I want to see it.

The big difference between SBV4T & MoveOn is that the links between Bust and swift are firm--firm enough for a Bush election staffer to have to resign, while the latter are all circumstantial. But hey, we can keep going over the talking points and not address real issues. It just shows Bush has noting to run on. Karl Rove here has started a handful of threads and, ya know what, they are all about character attacks instead of real issues.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #4 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
The big difference between SBV4T & MoveOn is that the links between Bust and swift are firm--firm enough for a Bush election staffer to have to resign, while the latter are all circumstantial. But hey, we can keep going over the talking points and not address real issues. It just shows Bush has noting to run on. Karl Rove here has started a handful of threads and, ya know what, they are all about character attacks instead of real issues.

No the difference is that when Bush finds out about it, the campaign forces that person to resign. There were two examples cited where the persons should have resigned but have not been forced to do so.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #5 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Yeah, I'd say that some of that is incriminating . . . but alot of it is like saying 'donors', . . . or, they saw the same movie at the same time . . . which isn't incriminating

the thing that is incriminating is the link with the persons that still work with Kerry . . .

So, MoveOn hasn't lied in the same manner that SBV$T have . . . and if they have I want to see it.

Events held together.

Sponsoring activities and actions together.

Kerry sending letters to and attending Moveon.org events.

How much more incriminating and together do you get?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #6 of 64
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
No the difference is that when Bush finds out about it, the campaign forces that person to resign. There were two examples cited where the persons should have resigned but have not been forced to do so.

Nick

Lets see then, your a smart guy. There's this thing you come across in english classes called tense. "was" means past tense as in then but not now. Bush had a member of his election staff who starred in a 527 ad while (at the same that is) a member of Bush's staff.

Another tense related word is "formerly" as in
Quote:
Jim Jordan, formerly Kerrys campaign manager, continues his work at the pro-Kerry Media Fund.

Jim Jordan doesn't currently work for Kerry. He works for a Pro-Kerry organization...

Your attempt to slander Kerry is lame and transparent to say the least. The fact that you've resorted to using NewsMax as a primary source lends to my build belief that you're getting desperate.

Good day.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #7 of 64
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
No the difference is that when Bush finds out about it, the campaign forces that person to resign. There were two examples cited where the persons should have resigned but have not been forced to do so.

Nick

Aren't those both "formerlys," as in they were formerly working for moveon and Kerry hired him, or vice-versa? [edit: faust already did the dirty deed.]

And the problem is that Bush and the Republicans support and raise money for 527s. His own "recount" 527 from the 2000 election is still up and running, for example. He is currently appearing on the cover of a 527's magazine. He was initially opposed to McCain-Feingold, and the signed this version of it that didn't ban 527s. This is obviously just a sham issue for him; a way of not really condemning the ad while pretending to condemn it.
post #8 of 64
Thread Starter 
Brussell and Faust,

I do see your points about the former and understood that when posting them. The point is to show a tight relationship between the two groups. There were other points that illustrated that better, but I included those as well.

With regard to the Bush campaign and 527's, the initial reports I read did not indicate that the person was a paid worker or advisor for the campaign. They indicated he was a volunteer and would not be allowed to volunteer while being associated with SwiftVets. I'll look into it more, but for tonight, I'm tired. You're welcome to post anything you find. I'll read it in the morning.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #9 of 64
June 17, 2003
Dec. 7, 2003.

You know, these dates are some time ago, you know, before Kerry was the Democratic Nominee.

And the whole thing smells of guilt by association. (And this goes for the Bush/Swift Boat association unless I see evidence otherwise)...

I think these sorts of debates are kind of stupid since clearly the evidence needs to be more than convincing.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
Reply
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
Reply
post #10 of 64
I thought MoveOn was a PAC, not a 527.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #11 of 64
From the bottom of the MoveOn Voter fund site:

Quote:
The MoveOn family of organizations consists of three entities. MoveOn.org, a 501(c)(4) organization, primarily focuses on education and advocacy on important national issues. MoveOn.org PAC, a federal PAC, primarily helps members elect candidates who reflect our values. And MoveOn.org Voter Fund, a 527 organization, primarily runs ads exposing President Bush's failed policies in key "battleground" states.

Click Me!!! Click Me!!! Click Me!!!


Three seperate organizations under one unbrella.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #12 of 64
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
From the bottom of the MoveOn Voter fund site:

Three seperate organizations under one unbrella.

Sort of like the Republicans, the administration and Halliburton?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #13 of 64
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Brussell and Faust,

I do see your points about the former and understood that when posting them. The point is to show a tight relationship between the two groups. There were other points that illustrated that better, but I included those as well.

With regard to the Bush campaign and 527's, the initial reports I read did not indicate that the person was a paid worker or advisor for the campaign. They indicated he was a volunteer and would not be allowed to volunteer while being associated with SwiftVets. I'll look into it more, but for tonight, I'm tired. You're welcome to post anything you find. I'll read it in the morning.

Nick

He was a volunteer advisor http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...oat/index.html

He was an advising member of the National Veterins Steering Committee. This is a pretty important committee this time around especially.

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news...4fw8o&refer=us
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #14 of 64
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Sort of like the Republicans, the administration and Halliburton?

"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #15 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
He was a volunteer advisor http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...oat/index.html

He was an advising member of the National Veterins Steering Committee. This is a pretty important committee this time around especially.

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news...4fw8o&refer=us

Thank you faust. You looked up what I did not, and I appreciate that.

So my point was going to be (once I was more sure about the information) that a volunteer is not the same as a campaign manager or a director. I'm sure we could go back and forth between the two all day and not convince each other of the difference/importance. However to me managers actually know important information about campaigns and are obviously in touch with the key decision makers (and in fact are a decision maker themselves) and likely remain so even when not "working" for the campaign any more.

I seriously doubt that this volunteer had any high level information regarding the Bush campaign with regard to ad buys, literature, and other such information.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #16 of 64
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Thank you faust. You looked up what I did not, and I appreciate that.

So my point was going to be (once I was more sure about the information) that a volunteer is not the same as a campaign manager or a director. I'm sure we could go back and forth between the two all day and not convince each other of the difference/importance. However to me managers actually know important information about campaigns and are obviously in touch with the key decision makers (and in fact are a decision maker themselves) and likely remain so even when not "working" for the campaign any more.

I seriously doubt that this volunteer had any high level information regarding the Bush campaign with regard to ad buys, literature, and other such information.

Nick

They are all volunteers though. There are few-if any- campaign participants who get paid. Go to a repub or dem headquarters and see how many get $$$. Ken was a campaign advisor. He was there to coordinate the Bush campaign's attempt to get the Veteran vote. I disagree with you when you say he had no knowledge. I bet he did. I bet he had extensive knowledge as a campaign coordinator for the veteran vote.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #17 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
They are all volunteers though. There are few-if any- campaign participants who get paid. Go to a repub or dem headquarters and see how many get $$$. Ken was a campaign advisor. He was there to coordinate the Bush campaign's attempt to get the Veteran vote. I disagree with you when you say he had no knowledge. I bet he did. I bet he had extensive knowledge as a campaign coordinator for the veteran vote.

But you believe an unpaid campaign volunteer would be able to coordinate on the same level as a paid campaign manager (even former?)

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #18 of 64
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
But you believe an unpaid campaign volunteer would be able to coordinate on the same level as a paid campaign manager (even former?)

Nick

I believe you don't get someone like retired Air Force Col. Ken Cordier on your staff (a 6 or 7 year POW depending on the news source) and place him in an important committee and not coordinate with him. Are you saying the only people who know what's going on are campaign managers?

PS. I actually fail to see the relevance of your statement. This has nothing to do with the amount of information available to members of Steering Committees especially the advisors. When someone is low ranking in a political election they are refered to by names such as "member". Ken was refered to as an "advisor". Much stronger language. Much more important position. More likely to have his grubby finger in the pie with the rest of the committee. Much more likely to "suggest" plans of attack to the campaign managers. Much more likely to be asked for suggestions from campaign managers. Go figure.

Good Day.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #19 of 64
Additionally, Ken Cordier was OFFICIALLY a member of the Bush camapign staff (volunteer or not) when he participated in the SBV4T ad. That alone is a violation of the Campaign Finance Reform Law Bush signed.

Just Googled the name and came up with this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com...bush.jpg?CLICK

and this:
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/bush/bushorgvet.html

Good'ol Ken was an active member of the Bush team and so much so that he was listed on Georgie-Boys web site (since removed of coarse).
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #20 of 64
Thread Starter 
I believe I said we could argue all day on this and still disagree. I don't see it like you do, and we will have to leave it at that.

Here is a great blog entry that sums of the whole 527 situation very well in my eyes.

Captain's Quarters

Quote:
"Kerry and his attack dogs (which include the news media of course) state as if it were a proven fact that Bush orchestrated the Swift Vet attack. But where is all the money? If Bush is connected to so many rich Republican fat cats, why couldn't the Swift Vets raise any more money than they have? If Karl Rove really had been the evil master mind behind the whole Swift Vet campaign, he certainly should have been capable of raising millions of dollars from his fat cat donors. Or are Rove and Bush so brilliant that they knew they could cause Kerry to self-destruct while spending a mere pittance?"

Obviously, Stan's argument rightly demonstrates the laughable idea that Republicans would have left such a critical campaign piece so woefully underfunded. However, just for fun, let's assume that both candidates have used the 527s deliberately as proxies for running attacks on each other in order to claim some distance from negative campaigning. What can we deduce from the result?

* John Kerry and the Democrats have spent over $60 million dollars in 527 money over eight months or more to derail the Bush re-election bid. The result -- Bush, a figure of hatred on the left, has suffered a few points of job-approval erosion, most of which has been regained in the past month.

* George Bush and the Republicans have spent $250,000 in 527 money over the past three weeks in order to attack Kerry. The result -- John Kerry has had to retreat from three different assertions of his Viet Nam record, he's hiding from the press, he's begging George Bush to stop the ads, and now he's calling veterans from his unit asking why they despise him.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #21 of 64
How much money have 527s spent on Bush's attack ads over the same period? It is preposterous to compare 3 weeks and 8 months of spending.

You really need to read better right-wing blogs.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #22 of 64
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
"Kerry and his attack dogs (which include the news media of course) state as if it were a proven fact that Bush orchestrated the Swift Vet attack."

Prove it.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
post #23 of 64
Didn't BushCo use a 527 for the recount initiative in Florida in 2000?
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #24 of 64
Quote:
President George W. Bush's re- election campaign lawyer said he is giving legal advice to the veterans group that is challenging Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry's account of his service in the Vietnam War, the Associated Press reported. (Source)

Nope. There's no connection whatsoever.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #25 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
How much money have 527s spent on Bush's attack ads over the same period? It is preposterous to compare 3 weeks and 8 months of spending.

You really need to read better right-wing blogs.

Actually what is preposterous is to claim that Bush would have had something this effective under his control and that he would a) only devote half a million to it when he could commit much more than that and b) that he would wait until now to bring it against Kerry when he could have basically shot him down with it before he got out of the gate and gained enough momentum to match him or best him in national polls.

We really need some better left wing portrayals of right wing evil conspiracy/ineptness.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #26 of 64
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Actually what is preposterous is to claim that Bush would have had something this effective under his control and that he would a) only devote half a million to it when he could commit much more than that and b) that he would wait until now to bring it against Kerry when he could have basically shot him down with it before he got out of the gate and gained enough momentum to match him or best him in national polls.

We really need some better left wing portrayals of right wing evil conspiracy/ineptness.

Nick

That's quite a comparative analysis of 527 spending on behalf of each candidate over a similar period of time.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #27 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
That's quite a comparative analysis of 527 spending on behalf of each candidate over a similar period of time.

Actually 527's aren't allowed to endorse a candidate. Only work against a candidate.

So I suppose you would want a comparitive analysis of 527 spending against each candidate right?

You also know that Open Secrets can't break that down because 527's are supposed to be non-partisan issue oriented groups.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #28 of 64
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Actually 527's aren't allowed to endorse a candidate. Only work against a candidate.

So I suppose you would want a comparitive analysis of 527 spending against each candidate right?

You also know that Open Secrets can't break that down because 527's are supposed to be non-partisan issue oriented groups.

Nick

And so you're saying there's no way to find out how much money Bush-supporting/Kerry-bashing 527s have spent in the past 8 months? Then where did this come from:

Quote:
* John Kerry and the Democrats have spent over $60 million dollars in 527 money over eight months or more to derail the Bush re-election bid.

* George Bush and the Republicans have spent $250,000 in 527 money over the past three weeks in order to attack Kerry.

And by the way, the quote you used exposes the silliness of your earlier point about how 527s are "supposed to be non-partisan." Sure they're supposed to be. But they're not. They can't officially endorse a candidate, so they have to bash the one they don't endorse.

Back to the gist of my question: how much money have 527s spent attacking Kerry in the last 8 months?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #29 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
And so you're saying there's no way to find out how much money Bush-supporting/Kerry-bashing 527s have spent in the past 8 months? Then where did this come from:

Well there are these people who have these things I like to call money, time and research assistants. They go to these groups, research which way they lean, see what they have spent via published documents, and draw conclusions.

This... came from a source that did that. If you don't believe they did that or care to question the source, that is fine. (if fact it is pretty much standard practice around here when people don't like the message)

But the reality is that I don't have time to do that. That is why I, like you often look at and frequent sources that do have time to do that. If you cited the N.Y. Times and I didn't like their conclusion, I couldn't expect you to go do the research yourself. Well I could, I just doubt you would be willing to spend the time and money to do so.

Quote:
And by the way, the quote you used exposes the silliness of your earlier point about how 527s are "supposed to be non-partisan." Sure they're supposed to be. But they're not. They can't officially endorse a candidate, so they have to bash the one they don't endorse.

Back to the gist of my question: how much money have 527s spent attacking Kerry in the last 8 months?

I don't have an exact dollar number. I can tell you (and you can tell this at Open Secrets as well) that all the largest 527's are Democratic leaning and also appear to give large donations to each other, likely to dilute some very, very large donations by a few individuals. Peter Lewis and George Soros are the biggest names who appear to have sprinkled at least $25 million or so among the various 527's who have then donated it to each other in various regards.

Here's the list of the 20 largest donors.

You tell me how many of those look like they lean right? If you want to take the time assign them left and right and total the amounts.

Here's a list of the top fifty 527 committees. The first one I would consider right learning in that group is the College Republican National Committee with expenditures of close to five million. The total expenditures of all the left leaning groups above that group total $150 million.

So we can argue that X% vs Y% might have been spent but the reality is it isn't even in the same league. The entire budget of the largest right leaning group isn't even a big as the donation of Soros to Moveon.org

Think about that for a second. The entire budget of that largest right leaning 527 doesn't even match the Soros donation to Moveon. Now when you consider Lewis also made a five million dollar donation, when you consider they also donated up to $10 million more to other 527's, etc. It just isn't in the same league. Even it were matched up for time frame and every other variable, it couldn't be in the same league.

Now we look up Bush and fund raising.

Bush disclosure

We see Bush has raised $240 million dollars. Do you honestly think that if he controlled the SwiftVets that he would have given them so little money or started them off so late? It just doesn't make sense. I mean there isn't a way to prove common sense, but the point is that this group has got Kerry on the run and no one would have underfunded or held off a resource like that. It would be like having video of Bush snorting coke and giving a couple people who sold it to him $100k to go advertise the fact after Bush is already up by 10 points. You would give them millions and have then hit before there was any momentum.

BTW, can you sort out the Kerry page for me? I would love to know what all that "other" is about.

Kerry

I mean since you support him, I can ask you to do the research right?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #30 of 64
Looking worse for the 527's :

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...oat/index.html


It looks like nobody wants these smear tactics anymore. However Bush could have spoke up sooner.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #31 of 64
I really didn't know which of the multiple threads that Trumptman has started on this subject to post the info. Also editing in PO doesn't seem to work right so I had to make this seperate posting.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #32 of 64
Apparently Tumpt's argument is that Democrats have been WAY too successful using 527's and therefore they should be dismantled. Ok.

But what about all of Bush's 527's working on his behalf?

The front-page story everywhere today is that a top lawyer for the Bush/Cheney campaign has, at the same time, been advising the infamous 527 Swift Boat Vets group. The lawyer at the center of the story, Ben Ginsberg, says that everything he's done is technically legal. And that may be true -- I'm not enough of an election law expert to judge.

But what's also true is that Ginsberg himself has attacked what he characterizes as the impropriety of individuals holding dual roles with campaigns and 527s.

An article that appeared in the Philadelpha Inquirer just two weeks ago included this bit about Ginsberg: "Ben Ginsberg, a legal adviser to the Bush campaign, specifically condemned the dual roles played by Democrats Harold Ickes and Bill Richardson, who had official roles at the convention and also within prominent friendly 527s. 'They're over the coordination line,' Ginsberg said of Ickes and Richardson. 'The whole notion of cutting off links between public officeholders and soft-money groups just got exploded.'"

To make things even better, Ginsberg doesn't just advise the Swift Boat Guys -- a role he will no doubt seriously downplay over the next few days. He serves as the official chief counsel to Progress for America, another 527 that, according to the Center for Responsive Politics, exists to "form 'issue truth squads' that respond to Democratic attacks on President Bush."

I know these guys are shameless, but still.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #33 of 64
Thread Starter 
Republicans mastering 527's

Pretty good article on how large a lead the Democratic leaning 527's have and how the Republicans have come late to the party with regard to learning about how to use these 527's after the changes in election law. They are now using them (for better or for worse depending upon your view, worse from mine) as the Democrats are using them. Of course they don't have the head start or the same amount of money, but are making up ground fast.

Wouldn't all this just be easier with no limits, and full disclosure of donations?

Quote:
The 527s can accept money from corporations and labor unions, unlike political parties and campaigns. The groups would fall under FEC regulation if it is proven that their major purpose is the election or defeat of a federal candidate or that they expressly advocate the election or defeat of a federal candidate. They also are barred from coordinating efforts with a campaign.

I wonder how they are going to sharpen and enforce these definitions.

Perhaps this will be the answer.

Quote:
Mr. McCabe said his group agrees with the president and would rather have all 527s regulated by the FEC and subject to fund-raising limitations. However, because the FEC chose not to do that this election cycle, Mr. McCabe said, Republican donors have decided to act.

I say scrap all this nonsense about donations and limits. All campaign limits ever do are allow rich self-financed candidates, or incumbents to have an edge.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #34 of 64
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
Looking worse for the 527's :

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...oat/index.html

It looks like nobody wants these smear tactics anymore. However Bush could have spoke up sooner.

Quote:
But Cleland's letter says that the type of ads -- 527s -- is irrelevant. "Our outrage over these advertisements and tactics has nothing to do with the tax code or campaign finance reform efforts of this nation," it says. "Our pain from seeing these slanderous attacks stems from something much more fundamental, that if one veteran's record is called into question, the service of all American veterans is questioned."
eye
bee
BEE
Reply
eye
bee
BEE
Reply
post #35 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
"Our pain from seeing these slanderous attacks stems from something much more fundamental, that if one veteran's record is called into question, the service of all American veterans is questioned."

You do understand how ironic it is that you post that statement while discussing John Kerry, a man who came back home and called into question many veteran's service for their country.

Talk about having it both ways.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #36 of 64
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
You do understand how ironic it is that you post that statement while discussing John Kerry, a man who came back home and called into question many veteran's service for their country.

Talk about having it both ways.

Nick

What are you talking about? Are you still suggesting Kerry should have kept his mouth shut about what happened in Vietnam? Unbelievable. I bet we should just shut up about Abu Ghraib too, right? No one would have rights except Americans if you were in charge. That's for sure. Thank goodness you're not.

If you can't see the difference between allegations (that have never been proved false) of the atrocities committed in Vietnam and allegations (which in Kerry's case have been proved either false or entirely based on hearsay) that individual soldiers received medals they did not deserve then you are truly beyond help.

Hearsay, you ask? But what about Kerry's claims?

Well, since you still dont' get it, Kerry said "Many officers have testified that..." 100% true. He never said he witnessed the events he mentioned. Ever.

Certain members of SBL4B, however, initially stated categorically that "I served with John Kerry" when they didn't, and in that context that "John Kerry lied about his service". That is not hearsay, it is a lie that they now blame on hearsay. A big difference.

And one is about murders and war crimes.

The other is about a freaking medal.

You need to realign your priorities, dude.
post #37 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
What are you talking about? Are you still suggesting Kerry should have kept his mouth shut about what happened in Vietnam? Unbelievable. I bet we should just shut up about Abu Ghraib too, right? No one would have rights except Americans if you were in charge. That's for sure. Thank goodness you're not.

Look it can't be both ways. I'm a little sick of the Kerry defenders claiming that attacking one vet is attacking all vets, then they attack SwiftVets, etc.

We also get this little bit of backass reasoning on the whole war attrocities issue. Kerry accused his fellow vets of atrocities. The spin, no he didn't, he merely read off a list of accusations that others made about themselves. Of course the people that made THAT list have been fully discredited in a number of ways including official investigations and even including proof of identity theft from dead vets.

Did Kerry ever correct his claims about that list he read? Did he ever apologize for implicating people based off hearsay?

As for my priorities, I know that they work just fine. You folks are the ones trying to have it both ways. Kerry the war hero (but who committed atrocities) but who only read a list of atrocities (even though he claimed first hand knowledge) and implicated not just the occasional nut job on patrol, but the highest levels of command. (But not his command)

They guy is a fabricating fake. It's been proven with the medals, it's been proven with Cambodia, and you just get pissed because Kerry can't change the subject because they he would have to actually talk about what he has done in the SENATE which would have the net effect of exposing his true agenda, and make him unelectable.

Nick


That is why I keep this statement as my sig. You can't hide from it. He claims millions, he claims himself. He claims first hand information and claims it to be systemic.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #38 of 64
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
That is why I keep this statement as my sig. You can't hide from it. He claims millions, he claims himself. He claims first hand information and claims it to be systemic.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

"I would like to say for the record, and also for the men behind me who are also wearing the uniforms and their medals, that my sitting here is really symbolic. I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony.

I would simply like to speak in very general terms. I apologize if my statement is general because I received notification yesterday you would hear me and I am afraid because of the injunction I was up most of the night and haven't had a great deal of chance to prepare.

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit, the emotions in the room, the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam, but they did. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the "Winter Soldier Investigation." The term "Winter Soldier" is a play on words of Thomas Paine in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriot and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

We who have come here to Washington have come here because we feel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country; we could be quiet; we could hold our silence; we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, the fact that the crimes threaten it, no reds, and not redcoats but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out."
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #39 of 64
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Look it can't be both ways. I'm a little sick of the Kerry defenders claiming that attacking one vet is attacking all vets, then they attack SwiftVets, etc.

We also get this little bit of backass reasoning on the whole war attrocities issue. Kerry accused his fellow vets of atrocities. The spin, no he didn't, he merely read off a list of accusations that others made about themselves. Of course the people that made THAT list have been fully discredited in a number of ways including official investigations and even including proof of identity theft from dead vets.

Did Kerry ever correct his claims about that list he read? Did he ever apologize for implicating people based off hearsay?

As for my priorities, I know that they work just fine. You folks are the ones trying to have it both ways. Kerry the war hero (but who committed atrocities) but who only read a list of atrocities (even though he claimed first hand knowledge) and implicated not just the occasional nut job on patrol, but the highest levels of command. (But not his command)

They guy is a fabricating fake. It's been proven with the medals, it's been proven with Cambodia, and you just get pissed because Kerry can't change the subject because they he would have to actually talk about what he has done in the SENATE which would have the net effect of exposing his true agenda, and make him unelectable.

Nick


That is why I keep this statement as my sig. You can't hide from it. He claims millions, he claims himself. He claims first hand information and claims it to be systemic.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Um... you might not want to be using a term like "fabricating fake".

The veterans who testified at the Winter Soldier conference have not been "fully discredited". In fact, they haven't been discredited at all. At most, there may have been one or two anti-war opportunists who used the occasion to insert there own stories, but that doesn't in any way change the over all veracity of the testimony put forth that day.

And, yet again, since you don't seem to be hearing this (what a shock), Kerry made no "claims" or "accusations" at all, and he has nothing to apologize for.
Atrocities in Vietnam are a documented fact, and if presenting evidence of that is in someway an attack on all soldiers then crimes committed during wartime can never be revealed. Which I guess is good by you, but not me.

Speaking of fabricating fakes, you can't even convey the information in your own sig accurately. He says "thousands", not "millions". Feverish indignation is all well and good, but not much of a resource for accuracy.

The fact that you're still saying that his medals "prove" anything but his heroism suggests that you have passed finally and irrevocably into some kind of fugue state of Kerry rage that is impervious to information, so I don't expect you apologize for continuing to lie about Kerry, but at least try to make your nonsense seem a little plausible, if only for the children.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #40 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
"I would like to say for the record, and also for the men behind me who are also wearing the uniforms and their medals, that my sitting here is really symbolic. I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony.

First do you deny that in my sig, Kerry admits to committing atrocities himself?

How about we start with this...

Quote:
# Elton Mazione, claiming Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) credentials, along with his friends, John Laboon, Eddie Swetz, and Kenneth Van Lesser. They claimed to kill children and remove body parts as part of the notorious Phoenix program. They were neither in Phoenix nor in Vietnam.
# VVAW leader and Winter Soldier organizer Al Hubbard lied about being an officer, Vietnam Veteran, and sustaining war injuries.
# Michael Harbert, another VVAW member, lied about his Vietnam service.
# Yoshia K. Chee claimed Phoenix operatives routinely resorted to the most hideous forms of torture, threw people out of helicopters, and decapitated prisoners. He was a phony.
# Mike Beamon, an alleged SEAL and Phoenix assassin, was never in the military.
# The VVAW and similar groups relied upon people like:
# K. Barton Osborn, a Vietnam veteran and testifier of atrocities to Congress. He told of prisoners being thrown out of helicopters, a woman starved to death, a prisoner being killed by a six inch dowel pushed through his ear. Osborn was not in Phoenix, refused to name names, and provided no documentation.
# Lieutenants Francis Reitemeyer and Michael J. Cohn. Both sought conscientious objector status because of Phoenix. Reitemeyer testified to being assigned to Phoenix as an adviser and maintain a kill quota of fifty bodies a month. They became famous as My Lai hit the news. Neither served in Vietnam, or in Phoenix. Reitemeyer later denied receiving any assassination training.

I'll go find some more after my work today.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Kerry and 527's-We make beautiful love together