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Where were you when MLK was shot?

post #1 of 44
8/25/04 at 7:26pm
Thread Starter 
I wasn't born yet. John Kerry was in Vietnam. Or he wasn't. Well? He says he was there but that's all playing politics with his own military record. If it sounds good and makes him look good he was there.


At todays Best of the Web
Quote:
Another Seared--Seared--Memory
From a John Kerry speech commemorating Martin Luther King Day, Jan._20, 2003:

I remember well April 1968--I was serving in Vietnam--a place of violence--when the news reports brought home to me and my crewmates the violence back home--and the tragic news that one of the bullets flying that terrible spring took the life of that unabashedly maladjusted citizen.

In fact, Kerry did not go to Vietnam until November 1968.

I wonder where he was when MLK was shot? Kerry may not even know.

Then there's this tall tale from Kerry. He was in Cambodia on Christmas

Quote:
This is how he described it to the Boston Herald in 1979: "I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies. _._._. The absurdity of almost being killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real."

In 1986 Mr. Kerry argued on the Senate floor against U.S. support for the Nicaraguan contras, again citing the 1968 Christmas in Cambodia and "the president of the United States telling the American people I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared--seared--in me." In a 1992 interview with the Associated Press the story came back: "By Christmas 1968, part of Kerry's patrol extended across the border of South Vietnam into Cambodia."

Trouble is, the person who appears to have been wrong here about Mr. Kerry's location was not the president--who was Lyndon Johnson, not Nixon, by the way--but Mr. Kerry himself. His commanding officers all testify to this fact, as do men who were on his boat at the time. And so now, reluctantly, does the Kerry campaign.

Last Wednesday Kerry spokesman Michael Meehan sent me a statement saying that "During John Kerry's service in Vietnam, many times he was on or near the Cambodian border and on one occasion crossed into Cambodia. ._._. On December 24, 1968 Lieutenant John Kerry and his crew were on patrol in the watery borders between Vietnam and Cambodia deep in enemy territory." I asked for clarification as to whether the "one occasion" was Christmas Eve 1968. "No," was the reply.

"Watery borders" is something of an evasion, intended to imply that Mr. Kerry's "seared" memory might have been easily confused. But according to both the maps and the testimony of swift vets, the Mekong doesn't run along the Cambodian border but bisects it, such that the coincidence between the two is obvious. In any case, Mr. Kerry's own journal, as cited in Douglas Brinkley's biography, records him being 50-some miles from the border at Sa Dec on that day contemplating visions of "sugar plums."

Even Kerry doesn't contend that this is true anymore. His own journal entries show that he is ... not forth coming with the truth.

The point being that Kerry uses his Vietnam experience very liberally. He invents whatever he needs to please the politics of the situation. One moments he's angry vet' with "seared" memories and tossed away medals no ribbons. The next he's proud war hero.

But talking about this is dragging a war hero though the mud, right?
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post #2 of 44
8/25/04 at 9:08pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
I wasn't born yet. John Kerry was in Vietnam. Or he wasn't. Well? He says he was there but that's all playing politics with his own military record. If it sounds good and makes him look good he was there.

The point being that Kerry uses his Vietnam experience very liberally. He invents whatever he needs to please the politics of the situation. One moments he's angry vet' with "seared" memories and tossed away medals no ribbons. The next he's proud war hero.

But talking about this is dragging a war hero though the mud, right?

as a matter of fact his journal entries do show that he was there
Quote:
Holiday in Cambodia
The "Christmas Eve" attack on Kerry is cheap and almost certainly wrong.

Kerry's Christmas story rings true
It is a twisted state of affairs that George W. Bush's most avid surrogates are trying to make this election turn on the question of whether Lt. John Kerry was or was not in Cambodia on Christmas Eve 1968.

Having pretty much failed at their efforts to disprove the official U.S. Navy account of Kerry's valor in battle as skipper of a "Swift boat" patrolling the Mekong Delta, the veterans against Kerry have moved to discredit his more obscure claimmade a few times over the years, in interviews and Senate floor speechesthat, on Dec. 24, he took CIA or special ops forces across the border into Cambodia, even while Washington claimed no American troops were there.

Kerry first told this story publicly in an article published in the Boston Herald on Oct. 14, 1979, before he was a senator:
I remember Christmas Eve of 1968, five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas.

He elaborated the tale on March 27, 1986, during a Senate debate over whether to aid the Nicaraguan contras:

I remember Christmas of 1968, sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians and have the President of the United States telling the American people that I was not there, the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is searedsearedin me.

A more intriguing referencenow known as "the famous good-luck-hat story"was made in a Washington Post profile, by Laura Blumenfeld, published on June 1, 2003:

There's a secret compartment in Kerry's briefcase. He carries the black attache everywhere. Asked about it on several occasions, Kerry brushed it aside. Finally, trapped in an interview, he exhaled and clicked open his case.

"Who told you?" he demanded as he reached inside. "My friends don't know about this."

The hat was a little mildewy. The green camouflage was fading, the seams fraying.

"My good luck hat," Kerry said, happy to see it. "Given to me by a CIA guy as we went in for a special mission in Cambodia."

But now some anti-Kerry veterans are saying he was never in Cambodia. John O'Neill, who has been dogging Kerry more than 30 years, told Matt Drudge that the senator's Christmas-in-Cambodia stories "are complete lies." As evidence, he cites Kerry's own wartime diary, as quoted in Douglas Brinkley's Tour of Duty: John Kerry and the Vietnam War. That bookaccording to Drudge's account of itplaces Kerry in Sa Dec, 50 miles away from Cambodia, on Christmas Eve, and seemingly at peace. "Visions of sugarplums really do dance through your head," Kerry wrote in his diary that night, "and you think of stockings and snow and roast chestnuts and fires with birch logs and all that is good and warm and real."

That passage is on Page 219 of Brinkley's book. But O'Neill, Drudge, and the other sneerers choose to ignore the 10 preceding pagesthe opening pages of a chapter called "Death in the Delta." On Christmas Eve 1968, Brinkley writes, Kerry and his crew:

headed their Swift north by the Cho Chien River to its junction with the My Tho only miles from the Cambodian border. Kerry began reading up on Cambodia's history in a book he had borrowed from the floating barracks in An Thoi. He even read about a 1959 Pentagon study titled "Psychological Observations: Cambodia," which state[d] that Cambodians "cannot be counted on to act in any positive way for the benefit of U.S. aims and policies."

Brinkley also quotes from Kerry's diary: "It was early morning, not yet light. Ours was the only movement on the river, patrolling near the Cambodian line." [Italics added.] Brinkley continues: "At a bend just as they were approaching the Cambodian border, two [U.S. river-patrol boats] met the Swift." Then, again from Kerry's diary: "Suddenly, there is an explosion and a mortar lands on the bank near all three boats." The next few pages detail a ferocious firefight, one part of which involved (as his diary noted) "the ridiculous waste of being shot at by your own allies."

Only a few hours later, in the evening, did Kerry's boat reach the stationing area of Sa Dec. "The night for once is comforting," Kerry wrote in his diary, "and you take a Coke and some peanut butter and jelly and go up on the roof of the cabin with your tape recorder and sit for a while, quietly watching flares float silently through the sky and flashes announce disquieting intent somewhere in the distance." It is in this context that Kerry then wrote, in a letter to home, about "visions of sugarplums" and thinking of "snow and roast chestnuts."

So let's review the situation. On Christmas Eve 1968, Kerry's Swift boat and at least two river-patrol boats were doing something unusual (Kerry wrote that he'd never been so far in-country) at least in the vicinity of the border"near the Cambodian line," as he put it in his diary. And Kerry had with him a book that described a Pentagon study on psychological operations against Cambodia.

It is certain that by this time, the United States had long been making secret incursions across the border. This is from Page 24 of William Shawcross' 1979 book, Sideshow: Kissinger, Nixon, and the Destruction of Cambodia:

Since May 1967, when the U.S. Military Command in Saigon became concerned at the way the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong were evading American "search and destroy" and air attacks in Vietnam by making more use of bases in Laos and Cambodia, the U.S. Special Forces had been running special, highly classified missions into the two countries. Their code name was Daniel Boone.

The Daniel Boone teams entered Cambodia all along its 500-mile frontier with South Vietnam from the lonely, craggy, impenetrable mountain forests in the north, down to the well-populated and thickly reeded waterways along the Mekong River. [Italics added.]

We know that Kerry's boat and two others were in those reeds on Christmas Eve '68.

The Cambodian special forces' incursionswhich were conducted without the knowledge, much less approval, of Congresswere escalating around that time. Just over a month later, on Feb. 9, 1969, Gen. Creighton Abrams, commander of U.S. forces in Vietnam, requested a B-52 bombing attack on a Communist camp inside Cambodia. (Richard Nixon, the new president, approved the plan on March 17; the first strikes of Operation Breakfastthe secret bombing of Cambodiastarted the next day.) Shawcross writes that special forces were always sent across the border to survey the area for targets just before an air operation.

Did Kerry cross the border or just go up to it? We may never know for sure. Not much paperwork exists for covert operations (officially, U.S. forces weren't in Cambodia). Nor is it likely that a canny Swift-boat skipper (and Kerry was nothing if not canny) would jot down thoughts about such covert operations in a diary on a boat that might be captured by the enemy.

The circumstances at least suggest that Kerry was indeed involved in a "black" mission, even if he had never explicitly made that claim. And why would he make such claims if he hadn't been? It was neither a glamorous nor a particularly admirable missioncertainly nothing to boast of.

But one thing is for sure: Lt. Kerry did not spend that Christmas Eve just lying around, dreaming of sugarplums and roasted chestnuts. He had plenty of time to cover the 40 miles from the Cambodian border to the safety of Sa Dec (he did command a swift boat, after all). More to the point, the evidence indicates he did cover those 40 miles: He was near (or in?) Cambodia in the morning, in Sa Dec that

I think that article also makes a very good point about the motivation for mentioning that experience at all. He isn't boasting about it, it is nothing to boast about, so why would he mention it? Because its true? and why not say something that is true?

and why would it be anything to attack? A- The attackers know that there are no official records about the US involvement in Cambodia even though there was definite and very active nvolvement there: teh B52 bombings and the scouting of the region for bases (all illegal and without Congress' knowledge -and hence the lack of records -it was all "off the record")

So once again, they attack a strength because they know that even if Kerry can argue his way into the fact of his presence there, the argument does not convert well to a sound bite, and therefor, the slander-sleazers who have nothing positive to put forward, seem to win: look like they win in Cable TV land . . . even though their whole attack is based on lies.

How can you look up to such a low life buncha sleazy thugs?
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #3 of 44
8/25/04 at 11:24pm
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
How can you look up to such a low life buncha sleazy thugs?

Because they will do whatever it takes to WIN, and Scott hates losing.
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post #4 of 44
8/26/04 at 12:08am
What Scott doesn't realize is that if George Bush is reelected we all lose. Seriously. Except maybe the greediest, most selfish among us.

Scott, if Kerry wins, you win. You win the possibility of a future where equality enters back into the equation. You win the possibility a future where opportunity is a right, and not something we have to earn or be born into. You win a future where your grandchildren won't necessarily have to pay for today's wars through taxes much higher than you personally would ever accept.

I doubt we'll win as much should GWB retain the power to corrupt America to become a place where white Christian straight males believe we somehow deserve more rights than others do.
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post #5 of 44
8/26/04 at 12:34am
Oh diddums.

Bush can't remember where he was for whole swathes the entire Vietnam war.

Bush can't remember when he heard what he heard on 9/11.
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post #6 of 44
8/26/04 at 3:05am
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
What Scott doesn't realize is that if George Bush is reelected we all lose. Seriously. Except maybe the greediest, most selfish among us.

Scott, if Kerry wins, you win. You win the possibility of a future where equality enters back into the equation. You win the possibility a future where opportunity is a right, and not something we have to earn or be born into. You win a future where your grandchildren won't necessarily have to pay for today's wars through taxes much higher than you personally would ever accept.

I doubt we'll win as much should GWB retain the power to corrupt America to become a place where white Christian straight males believe we somehow deserve more rights than others do.

Yeah, we are losing so bad right now. We are almost threee years after 9/11 and no terrorist attack has occurred on our soil. Thousands of terrorists have been killed and thousands more have been captured. The terrorists are on the run. The economy is rebounding after the Clinton recession - much faster than anybody dared hope after such a devastating hit on the financial capital of the world. Bush is really doing a bad job...

We will all be losers if Kerry is elected. He has consistently voted to cut the nation's defense and intelligence budgets. He voted for the Iraq war and against the funding of our troops. He voted against the original Gulf War despite complete and total UN backing from a huge international coalition. He has been on the wrong side of just about every issue. If you think this guy can manage the War on Terror better than President Bush then I don't know what he has done that would make you believe it.
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post #7 of 44
8/26/04 at 5:10am
Thread Starter 
Here's another tall tale. Kerry volunteered for "dangerous duty". Well in fact he didn't. When he volunteered for the swift boats they were not making trips up the river. Kerry thought he'd get light duty patrolling the coast.


Kerry's service record distorted

Quote:
"I didn't really want to get involved in the war," Kerry said in a little-noticed contribution to a book of Vietnam reminiscences published in 1986. "When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling and that's what I thought I was going to be doing."

Once again ... point being Kerry brings his service into sharp focus. When that shows some pimples and warts he's all of a sudden unhappy about it.
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post #8 of 44
8/26/04 at 8:11am
From salon

Quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- One of the men who helped put Democrat John Kerry on the defensive over his military record during the Vietnam war is answering questions about his own service during that conflict.

During an Oval Office conversation in 1971, John O'Neill tells President Nixon he was in Cambodia in a swift boat during the war -- a claim that is at odds with O'Neill's recent statements that he wasn't in the country.

Why golly, another liar caught in the act of lying in order to slander Kerry.

O'Niell said, to the president of the United States that he was in Cambodia \

Gee . . . . these guys get sleazier by the minute!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #9 of 44
8/26/04 at 8:23am
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Here's another tall tale. Kerry volunteered for "dangerous duty". Well in fact he didn't. When he volunteered for the swift boats they were not making trips up the river. Kerry thought he'd get light duty patrolling the coast.


Kerry's service record distorted


Once again ... point being Kerry brings his service into sharp focus. When that shows some pimples and warts he's all of a sudden unhappy about it.

BTW . . . that is the most ridiculous blog that links to what . . . Boston.com?!?! as a primary source on what? a rumor heard in some back alley?
That is like quoting SDW as a source of information

I dare you to look back historically, as well as to ask any real Swift Boat vets (not these ideological assholes) what was known about their duties and when.
The pathetic nature of this shit-throwing is really embarrassing . . . to see Scott, whom I allready had virtually no respect for, reduced to perpetuating blog-facts in orde to continue the sleaze is simply depressing.

So really what it is is: Kerry brings his service into sharp focus and the slander machine turns his respectable duty into a fog of lies and smeared shit, because they know that they can do it from past experience . . . while a president who's record is absolutely dog-turd pungent (and I mean ALL of his record) sits back and watches an honorable man get smeared. . . its distgusting
and so many of you Conservatives have come on these boards and pretended that issues like 'character' matter . . . this whole strategy is beneath anyone who cares about real character . . . . its pathetic and will be looked back on with shamefulness
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #10 of 44
8/26/04 at 8:39am
Hey Scott,

Who has the better war record, Kerry or Bush?
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post #11 of 44
8/26/04 at 8:57am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
Hey Scott,

Who has the better war record, Kerry or Bush?

Kerry.

Which one of the two colors the truth of for their political gain more and as a consequence has it fly back in their face more and then cries foul when it happens?
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post #12 of 44
8/26/04 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Kerry.

Which one of the two colors the truth of for their political gain more and as a consequence has it fly back in their face more and then cries foul when it happens?

Man. Take your pick.

Except Kerry's war record is real despite the politically-motivated lies, and George Bush went AWOL and got drunk.
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post #13 of 44
8/26/04 at 9:08am
Let me continue with the topic here, more form O'Neill:
Quote:
I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border," O'Neill is heard telling Nixon in a conversation that was taped by the former president's secret recording system. The tape is stored at the National Archives in College Park, Md.

In an interview Wednesday with The Associated Press, O'Neill did not dispute what he said to Nixon on June 16, 1971, but he insisted he was never actually in Cambodia.

"I think I made it very clear that I was on the border, which is exactly where I was for three months," O'Neill said of the conversation. "I was about 100 yards from Cambodia."

No no, Mr O'Neill, you made it clear where you were, and now its clear where you head is!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #14 of 44
8/26/04 at 9:17am
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Kerry.

Which one of the two colors the truth of for their political gain more and as a consequence has it fly back in their face more and then cries foul when it happens?

Bush.

For example, landing on an aircraft carrier to make it seem like he was ever actually a combat pilot, or pretending that he actually served when there's absolutely no-one can say they served with him in the missing period, or any documentary proof that he reported for duty at all. If the latter isn't colouring the truth for political gain then I don't know what is.
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post #15 of 44
8/26/04 at 9:48am
Thread Starter 
So let's see. Bush never brings up his weekend warrior duty and Kerry colors the truth and flat out lies and makes his Vietnam service his ace in the hole to win the presidency? And that tells us that Bush is using his for political gain and Kerry is not?


Head out of sand time!
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post #16 of 44
8/26/04 at 9:55am
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
So let's see. Bush never brings up his weekend warrior duty and Kerry colors the truth and flat out lies and makes his Vietnam service his ace in the hole to win the presidency? And that tells us that Bush is using his for political gain and Kerry is not?

Well, that's... one way of looking at it.
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post #17 of 44
8/26/04 at 10:04am
"Mission accomplished."

Flight deck; Commander-in-Chief in pilot gear.

Ring any bells?
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post #18 of 44
8/26/04 at 10:09am
"I was IN Cambodia sir" -O'Neill


-nuff said
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #19 of 44
8/26/04 at 10:53am
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
I wasn't born yet. John Kerry was in Vietnam. Or he wasn't. Well? He says he was there but that's all playing politics with his own military record. If it sounds good and makes him look good he was there.


At todays Best of the Web
At todays Best of the Web

quote:

Another Seared--Seared--Memory
From a John Kerry speech commemorating Martin Luther King Day, Jan._20, 2003:

I remember well April 1968--I was serving in Vietnam--a place of violence--when the news reports brought home to me and my crewmates the violence back home--and the tragic news that one of the bullets flying that terrible spring took the life of that unabashedly maladjusted citizen.

In fact, Kerry did not go to Vietnam until November 1968.

I wonder where he was when MLK was shot? Kerry may not even know.

They might want to check their facts. Kerry was on his first Vietnam tour, serving on the USS Gridley, when MLK was assassinated. His second tour started in Nov. 1968 as a swiftboat commander. This is what they get when they falsely claim repeatedly that Kerry was in Vietnam for "4 months." His second tour, on a swiftboat, was 4 months. His first tour was on the Gridley for over a year. Much of that time, though not all, the ship was in the Vietnam area. It was there when MLK was shot.

Here's Kerry service timeline.
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post #20 of 44
8/26/04 at 11:09am


It is sooo pathethic that I can't BELIEVE it!!!!



here is no way that this negative bounce for Kerry will last . . . this stuff is just too rich!!
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #21 of 44
8/26/04 at 11:16am
I have to admit I can't remember the day MLK was shot although I do remember it was in april. I do however remeber where I was when JFK was shot. It was the middle of the afternoon in 5th grade. The teacher left for a few minutes, came back and said the president had been shot. They didn't know his condition at the time. They let school out.....for the rest of the week. And on my parents TV it was all that was on for the rest of the week on all 4 channels.


As for this Kerry thing.....god! How desperate can you guys get!!!!!!!!

You know I think Kerry's going to win the election because the public is going to get sick of conservatives searching for anything, anything to try to shoot at Kerry and not having much luck. So they resort to this kind of mind numbing stupidity.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #22 of 44
8/26/04 at 11:20am
Thread Starter 
Kerry's first tour wasn't a Vietnam tour. It was a "Western Pacific" tour. He wasn't "in Vietnam--a place of violence" but maybe off the coast in a large ship. But it all sounds good so ... he'll say it.
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post #23 of 44
8/26/04 at 11:22am
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Kerry's first tour wasn't a Vietnam tour. It was a "Western Pacific" tour. He wasn't "in Vietnam--a place of violence" but maybe off the coast in a large ship. But it all sounds good so ... he'll say it.


God! Give it up Scott!

Nobody even wants to listen to this crap.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #24 of 44
8/26/04 at 11:28am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmac
God! Give it up Scott!

Nobody even wants to listen to this crap.

Yea I know. Kerry's crap is a little too much to take.
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post #25 of 44
8/26/04 at 11:37am
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Kerry's first tour wasn't a Vietnam tour. It was a "Western Pacific" tour. He wasn't "in Vietnam--a place of violence" but maybe off the coast in a large ship. But it all sounds good so ... he'll say it.

You say this like you've done a west-pac. When did you serve? How many sea service ribbons did you get? Enter a war zone--Gulf of Tonkin--then you've done a tour of that area. I got a Kuwait service medal for entering the Arabian Gulf in 93. I got my CNN(National Defense by its proper name) for being in boot camp while the US was in a condition of conflict. You are speaking from conjecture, second hand knowledge, and falsehoods when you say stuff like this.

PS tell all the sailors who sat off of SA during the first Gulf War that they were not their because they sat off the coast. Tell their wives and children that and see how many times you get punched.

Good day.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...




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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...




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post #26 of 44
8/26/04 at 12:05pm
Thread Starter 
Kill the messenger huh? Look, Kerry pushes and pulls his service in ways that look good for him. It flies back in his face and he cries "foul". I'm not buying it. You shouldn't either.
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post #27 of 44
8/26/04 at 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Kill the messenger huh? Look, Kerry pushes and pulls his service in ways that look good for him. It flies back in his face and he cries "foul". I'm not buying it. You shouldn't either.

I'm not killing the messenger. I'm pointing out that the information which you are spreading is catagorically false, misleading, and hurtful to many people--if you where to say it to them in person--who have served in the military. Lies about Kerry's record are what Kerry is crying foul about (see pfflams funny little video in one of these threads), see all the evidence presented that SBL4B are not telling the truth.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...




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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...




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post #28 of 44
8/26/04 at 12:31pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Yea I know. Kerry's crap is a little too much to take.

No this is a little too much to take.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #29 of 44
8/26/04 at 1:17pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
I'm not killing the messenger. I'm pointing out that the information which you are spreading is catagorically false, misleading, and hurtful to many people--if you where to say it to them in person--who have served in the military. Lies about Kerry's record are what Kerry is crying foul about (see pfflams funny little video in one of these threads), see all the evidence presented that SBL4B are not telling the truth.

Hurtful? What have I said that is hurtful?
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post #30 of 44
8/26/04 at 1:36pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Hurtful? What have I said that is hurtful?

Read my previous two post above. Now after doing that tell me how little Johnny Jr would feel if you said "Your daddy wasn't in the Gulf War" when in reality his daddy sat off the shore of Kuwait for 12 months. How do you think little Johnny, and his mother, and the rest of Johnny Sr's family for that matter, would feel? You tried to minimize Kerry's service but in doing so are slighting every sailor who has deployed especially for long periods. You are slighting Airmen how have been sent on remotes for 9+ months as support personel instead of actually being in Iraq/Kuwait... You showed that you don't know what its like missing a birthday when your dad is off for 6 months (standard pac deployment) to a year.

Ask any military family member about this and I'll bet my dollars to your dougnuts that they would find this kind of minimization that you tried to employ if not hurtful then angering.

Don't just take my word for it though (military brat and husband while in the military) ask others. That is what's hurtful about it.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...




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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...




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post #31 of 44
8/26/04 at 2:54pm
Thread Starter 
This one seems a little far fetched. No pun intended.

Quote:
Do you have any pets that have made an impact on you personally?

I have always had pets in my life and there are a few that I remember very fondly.
When I was serving on a swiftboat in Vietnam, my crewmates and I had a dog we called VC. We all took care of him, and he stayed with us and loved riding on the swiftboat deck. I think he provided all of us with a link to home and a few moments of peace and tranquility during a dangerous time. One day as our swiftboat was heading up a river, a mine exploded hard under our boat. After picking ourselves up, we discovered VC was MIA. Several minutes of frantic search followed after which we thought we'd lost him.

We were relieved when another boat called asking if we were missing a dog. It turns out VC was catapulted from the deck of our boat and landed confused, but unhurt, on the deck of another boat in our patrol.

Im sure it really did happen. Poor little VC getting blown from one boat to the other, unhurt.
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post #32 of 44
8/26/04 at 3:25pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
This one seems a little far fetched. No pun intended.



Im sure it really did happen. Poor little VC getting blown from one boat to the other, unhurt.

Do you ever give up? First you tried to attack the medals. No dice. You then tried to attack the winter soldier testimony. No dice. You tried to attack the purple hearts. No dice.... Now your attacking a story about a dog? And, your doing this without proof contrary to the statements. Why couldn't it happen? Jesus damn man give it a break.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...




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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...




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post #33 of 44
8/26/04 at 5:21pm
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
PS tell all the sailors who sat off of SA during the first Gulf War that they were not their because they sat off the coast. Tell their wives and children that and see how many times you get punched.

That group of sailors would include a close friend of mine, who would not just punch you in the face, he would put you in the hospital. He was basically the most feared man on his ship, having once beaten 4 guys nearly twice his size within inches of their lives.

He voted for GHWB instead of Clinton.
He voted for GWB instead of Gore.
He's going to vote for Kerry instead of GWB, who he "can't f-ing stand"
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post #34 of 44
8/26/04 at 5:46pm
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
That group of sailors would include a close friend of mine, who would not just punch you in the face, he would put you in the hospital. He was basically the most feared man on his ship, having once beaten 4 guys nearly twice his size within inches of their lives.

Sounds like a really neat guy.
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post #35 of 44
8/26/04 at 6:01pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Read my previous two post above. Now after doing that tell me how little Johnny Jr would feel if you said "Your daddy wasn't in the Gulf War" when in reality his daddy sat off the shore of Kuwait for 12 months. How do you think little Johnny, and his mother, and the rest of Johnny Sr's family for that matter, would feel? You tried to minimize Kerry's service but in doing so are slighting every sailor who has deployed especially for long periods. You are slighting Airmen how have been sent on remotes for 9+ months as support personel instead of actually being in Iraq/Kuwait... You showed that you don't know what its like missing a birthday when your dad is off for 6 months (standard pac deployment) to a year.

Ask any military family member about this and I'll bet my dollars to your dougnuts that they would find this kind of minimization that you tried to employ if not hurtful then angering.

Don't just take my word for it though (military brat and husband while in the military) ask others. That is what's hurtful about it.

Well faust9 I'm forced to reply to your melodramatic post. If I don't people will punch me in the face apparently. With tears in my eyes I confess that I was once Johnny Jr. That's right, sniff. My father was on the USS Coral Sea when I was born. And yet to this day I don't think on him having served in Vietnam. I don't think he did either. He never got his foot on the soil there.

So where was Kerry when MLK was shot? "In Vietnam" hanging out on a boat off the coast (or somewhere else in the pacific?) relatively safe and not in "a place of violence". I wonder where the lucky little "VC" was then? Just a puppy I'm sure.

Kerry colors his Vietnam experience for his political benefit. He went too far when he lied oooops I mean testified before congress. Now it's a little "backlash" on him.
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post #36 of 44
8/26/04 at 6:55pm
Quote:
Quote:
He was basically the most feared man on his ship, having once beaten 4 guys nearly twice his size within inches of their lives.

Originally posted by BRussell
Sounds like a really neat guy.

Perhaps I should elaborate.... (and lose the poetic license on "inches of their lives" - more like "in need of varying degrees of medical attention")

The first three were "locals" in a south american port of call - the first one for him and most of his shipmates since leaving home port. They followed my friend and one of his shipmates from a local bar when they were walking back to the ship (obviously thinking, easy pickings on two drunk gringo sailors). One had a knife, one had a chain, and one had a piece of steel re-bar.

When they approached my friend and the other sailor, my friend was backed into a corner by the guy with the knife, and the other sailor saw a patch of daylight and hauled ass.

My friend went from drunk and happy to much less drunk, adrenaline-pumped, and enraged, in a second (a stereotypical redhead). The guy with the knife was closest and he grabbed the knife arm and basically broke it with an audible snap, then one-two'ed him in the gut and face, putting him down, and in need of medical attention.

Next came the guy with the chain. He started swinging it and my friend just waited for the backmost part of the swing and stepped in with a face jab, then grabbed the arm to stop the chain swing. From there he just boxed him till he fell, with at least a broken nose.

That left the guy with the rebar. He was sort of stationary about six feet away, having seen his two companions put down hard in less than 30 seconds. When my friend looked up at him after putting down chain dude, with a face every bit as red as his hair and fire in his eyes, I'm sure some thought of "el diablo" or such went through his mind as he dropped the rebar and hauled ass.

My friend chased him down and tackled him on the fly. I'll spare you the details, but he worked this guy over pretty hard and he definitely required the most serious of the medical attention.

And the fourth guy who got a beating from my friend that night?

You guessed it. . . the other sailor with him, the guy who ran, got his ass kicked as soon as he was found back on the ship. Let's say, just for the heck of it, that it was a minor ass-kicking that required no (major) medical attention, and that no commanding officer was ever aware of what happened, because of course they would have been obligated to bring my friend up on charges for assaulting a fellow sailor onboard ship!

Anyway, my friend IS a neat guy... he served on a command ship IN the Gulf, married since he got out to a great woman with a masters degree, has three great kids, and the only asses he's kicked in the last 10 years are guys who tried to kick his. I'd say he's the most intelligent of my contemporary friends who never saw a day of college in his life.
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post #37 of 44
8/27/04 at 12:16am
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
"Mission accomplished."

Flight deck; Commander-in-Chief in pilot gear.

Ring any bells?

Hello?

Scott?

Why don't you give Bush one millionth of the bullshit you give Kerry?
meh
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post #38 of 44
8/27/04 at 2:14am
Bush sticks his neck out for guys like Scott, who think they work hard for their money and who consider those less fortunate to not really be less "fortunate", but simply less successful or even less valuable because they're either not as good as people like Scott or just didn't work hard enough to get where people like Scott are. This type of person believes in a flat tax, no affirmative action, reduced immigration, and use of force against those who don't agree with the USA or who don't give the USA the advantage in business people like Scott feel is due to the USA because the USA superior in thought, philosophy, faith and skill. That's why people like Scott give Bush license to do whatever he damn well pleases.
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post #39 of 44
8/27/04 at 9:59pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the phychobabble tonton.


Anyway back on topic.


More on Kerry here.

Quote:
Retired Rear Adm. William L. Schachte Jr. said Thursday in his first on-the-record interview about the Swift boat veterans dispute that "I was absolutely in the skimmer" in the early morning on Dec. 2, 1968, when Lt. (j.g.) John Kerry was involved in an incident which led to his first Purple Heart.

"Kerry nicked himself with a M-79 (grenade launcher)," Schachte said in a telephone interview from his home in Charleston, S.C. He said, "Kerry requested a Purple Heart."

...
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post #40 of 44
8/27/04 at 10:01pm
Thread Starter 
And one more here

Quote:
HH:_ "Steve, was there a dog named VC on your boat?"

SG: ""Buddy, to the best of my knowledge (laughing), I never saw any dog at any time on the 44 boat."

HH: "Is it possible that it was on the other boat."

SG: "Oh, a distinct possibility (laughing)."

HH: "In the time that you were on the swift boats --totally-- did any of the swift boats have a dog?"

SG: "Never saw one, ever."

HH: "Would it have been a good idea to have a dog on the swift boats?"

SG: "Not likely."

HH: "Why not?"

SG: "Because there was just too much action going on._ We had hot brass rolling around there any time we were in a firefight._ He would have got beat up."

HH: "Is this the first time you have ever heard of the dog story?"

SG: "It sure is."
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