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Umm..WTF is Kerry doing?!?

post #1 of 92
Thread Starter 
This is not what you think. I'm not ripping him, I'm asking:

Why is Kerry continuing to bring up the Swift Boat issue? All signs point to him taking at least some damage in the polls from it (some show big hits from the ads). If I was advising him I'd be telling him to make it go away.

So Bush comes out, condemns all 527s, and Kerry keeps bringing it up. In my opinion this is not a good idea politically. What I'm saying is that I still think even with all the negative coverage of Swift Boat Vets for Truth (Republican connections, etc) that this is a net positive for Bush or at least a net negative for Kerry.

Anecdotally, I was speaking to some college students today (no idea of their political affiliation before hand), and Kerry came up. They started talking about how he lied to get his medals, blah blah (I don't believe that's true, btw). This was really surprising and very telling. I think these ads, right or wrong, HAVE had a big impact. I think Kerry either needs to answer ALL questions NOW, or just move on and not talk about it. Right now, it's like he just throws more fuel on the fire every day.

Why does he continue to bring this up? I don't see the advantage for him, especially since Bush condemed all 527s.
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post #2 of 92
Not to offend my recently departed college student self, but what do college student's know? Seriously, while a liberal, I avoided the whole Bush is an idiot crowd because that blind and close minded view gets you nowhere, but most college students are too accepting of what information they receive. They accept as law what there profs say and tend to take the word of the man at the microphone in a similar manner as well... Its actually a more universal problem than that but that is a digression I care not to follow at this moment because the man behind the curtains is whispering that "i don't care."
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post #3 of 92
There's no doubt in my mind that Kerry stretched the truth wrt to the medals. I can't prove it but his actions after the war are clear.

One important aspect that I have not heard out of all this is that apparently they gave out A LOT of medals in Vietnam. It was a cheap way to keep moral up. Is it Kerry's fault he took advantage of it? I guess it is but if they are giving them away why not ask for one.

But yea Kerry is a fucking fool to keep bring it up. He played up his war record a great deal. He's told politically advantageous lies about his service. Now it's biting him in the ass. He made his bed ...
post #4 of 92
You're an ass if you believe the lies . . . there is no real indication that Kerry lied one iota . . . the Doctor was probably not even within a mile of Kerry and anyone else who witnessed backs him or did in records of the time.

Don't pedal that crap scott . . . you'd think he came from Mars if Rove told you he did

As for why he keeps bringing it up?
Because these assholes lied about his record, that's why!
I'd bring it up too!! He wants the truth known . . . that these guys are a bunch of embittered politicos who think that protesters lost the war for us and want to get back at Kerry for it!

Students that you just happened to be talking to? . . . You probably wear your party line on your sleave, even if you don't think it, and these guys are just trying to kiss your ass.
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"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
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post #5 of 92
Just think, if Bush wins, we as a country will look back in shame at this campaign strategy . . . we will hold our heads and say: "back in 04 when the scurrilous adds smearing Kerry's war records ran, like those that attacked John McCain and Cleland before him" it will be another shameful report on American gullibility, and the rest of the world will loose a little more respect for our collective intelligence
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #6 of 92
You know scott, you make judgment calls without evidence citing as your evidence something that is completely unrelated. The fact that he criticized the US for actions that WERE war crimes (and WERE committed) leads you to believe that he extended the truth for his medals?

Even if he did extend the truth (stretch it a bit), which is more fake a man that went to war, saw wrongs, came home to fix them stretched them for his own gain and has been dogged after since that moment by the my nation wrong or right crowd, or a man who was raised in the elite society of new england who puts on a cowboy front to show how down home he is on a fake ranch and hasn't had anyone to question his image as cowboy george?
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post #7 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
You know scott, you make judgment calls without evidence citing as your evidence something that is completely unrelated.

Huh?

Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
The fact that he criticized the US for actions that WERE war crimes (and WERE committed) leads you to believe that he extended the truth for his medals?

Kerry testified to things that he did not have first hand knowledge of and pushed beyond being colorful. He slander a lot of people with his false testimony. All for his future political career.

What leads me to believe that he stretch the truth about his own service wrt medals is that we know for a fact that he stretched the truth of his own service. Read here.

Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Even if he did extend the truth (stretch it a bit), which is more fake a man that went to war, saw wrongs, came home to fix them stretched them for his own gain and has been dogged after since that moment by the my nation wrong or right crowd, or a man who was raised in the elite society of new england who puts on a cowboy front to show how down home he is on a fake ranch and hasn't had anyone to question his image as cowboy george?

Whatever. Maybe if you could take it down a notch we could have a discussion about it?
post #8 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Kerry testified to things that he did not have first hand knowledge of and pushed beyond being colorful. He slander a lot of people with his false testimony. All for his future political career.

His testimony was a reading of of a collectively written document and mentioned atrocities that he and other witnessed . . . and atrocities did exist and officers did know about them.

There is no reason to believe that he would stick his neck on the line for 'future political career' . . . it was a position to take that was not 'politically' safe by any means. I would say that he probably read this testimony because he beleived what it said and felt strongly about the war.

I grew up in a Vietnam family and I know how anything even remotly appearing to be sympathetic to anti-war positions with regards to that war bring certain people to an absolute boiling point . . . . and people who are prone to that attitude will see an evil commie in anybody with hair below their ear lobes . . . i wouldn't let my hatred get away from my reasoning abilities . . . I've seen it happen too often with the Vietnam subject.


Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
What leads me to believe that he stretch the truth about his own service wrt medals is that we know for a fact that he stretched the truth of his own service. Read here.

Make a point of reading the article under your post in that thread.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #9 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Huh?



Kerry testified to things that he did not have first hand knowledge of and pushed beyond being colorful. He slander a lot of people with his false testimony. All for his future political career.

What leads me to believe that he stretch the truth about his own service wrt medals is that we know for a fact that he stretched the truth of his own service. Read here.



Whatever. Maybe if you could take it down a notch we could have a discussion about it?

I know this has been put to you before but since you still insist on spreading this drivel... What's say YOU provide us with PROOF of false testimony. You dally in Physics so you know the difference between fact and belief. You BELIEVE Kerry may have lied but until you supply fact you are simply spreading an unverified hypothesis. Cold fusion at its best. Let me get my perpetual motion machine and we can hop on a singularity with Hawkings.
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post #10 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott

Kerry testified to things that he did not have first hand knowledge of and pushed beyond being colorful. He slander a lot of people with his false testimony. All for his future political career.

What leads me to believe that he stretch the truth about his own service wrt medals is that we know for a fact that he stretched the truth of his own service. Read here.

Whatever. Maybe if you could take it down a notch we could have a discussion about it?

Why should we have a discussion when you lead with lies?

Here it is in bold face, right at the start of the thread, so maybe we don't have to go through 4 pages of nonsense:

KERRY DID NOT ACCUSE THE VETERANS OF ANYTHING. HE READ THE TESTIMONY OF OF OTHER VETERANS. HE ATTESTED THAT HE, HIMSELF, SAW AND DID SIMILAR THINGS. HE NEVER SAID OR IMPLIED THAT ALL, OR EVEN MOST, OF THE SOLDIERS IN VIETNAM WERE A PARTY TO THIS.

Which I guess answers the question of the thread. As long as there are cadres of ditto heads that are happy to repeat the slurs and lies of the people who could care less about the future of this country and care only about power and keeping power, I think it behooves Kerry to go straight at it, call it for what it is, hold it up to the light of day and say "This is the character of what I'm running against. Shameless. False. Not even willing to fight its own battles, and entirely without honor."
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post #11 of 92
Kerry will not let the issue die because there are too many ignoramuses who still believe the lies. Would you not defend yourself?

And in defending himself, he is not in any way drawing MORE attention to the issue except in the context that it was completely false.

If he were to walk away from it, even now, there would still be many people who ask themselves why he walked away... and who might come to the opinion that perhaps the allegations weren't lies after all.

But the allegations have been proven to be lies. And there are still some people [cough, cough] who deny that fact because it's not advantageous to them politically. That's when they themselves become dishonest.

No one can honestly say that the SBV4T ad was accurate and "for public interest in the truth". Anyone who makes such a claim is either a liar themselves, ignorant, too stupid to determine fact on their own, or delusional.
post #12 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
This is not what you think. I'm not ripping him, I'm asking:

Why is Kerry continuing to bring up the Swift Boat issue? All signs point to him taking at least some damage in the polls from it (some show big hits from the ads). If I was advising him I'd be telling him to make it go away.

So Bush comes out, condemns all 527s, and Kerry keeps bringing it up. In my opinion this is not a good idea politically. What I'm saying is that I still think even with all the negative coverage of Swift Boat Vets for Truth (Republican connections, etc) that this is a net positive for Bush or at least a net negative for Kerry.

Anecdotally, I was speaking to some college students today (no idea of their political affiliation before hand), and Kerry came up. They started talking about how he lied to get his medals, blah blah (I don't believe that's true, btw). This was really surprising and very telling. I think these ads, right or wrong, HAVE had a big impact. I think Kerry either needs to answer ALL questions NOW, or just move on and not talk about it. Right now, it's like he just throws more fuel on the fire every day.

Why does he continue to bring this up? I don't see the advantage for him, especially since Bush condemed all 527s.


Nope! I don't think Kerry's going to let this go. Why should he? He has a right to defend himself and I think it's important to send a message about these kind of smear tactics. It'll sting Bush later on but some people never learn.
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post #13 of 92
Kerry is not a good politician, he is worse than Bush, who at least has the good sense to keep his damned mouth shut and let others do all the work for him.

Bush is the master of throwing bodies between himself and criticism. He keeps silent, he knows visibility is a political weakness. Keep quiet and come out when we need some reassuring cowboy antics about "evildoers" and "freedom-haters". Let your party zealots spread the message then come out and act more moderate than you are when the heat gets turned up. Wait for Kerry to step and then step back and act like he's crazy.

Kerry's ad team should have come out hard against the Swifties right off the bat and out-shouted them. That's all American politics is on a national level, a goddam echo chamber, the loudest wins. Bush has it cranked up to 11 and Kerry is picking away on his little acoustic guitar.

I hope the Democrats like being the losers on the high road, because until they learn to shape up and kick some ass they'll have to wait for another Bubba savior.

Kerry needs to learn to keep his fucking mouth shut. If I was running his campaign all references to Vietnam would stop immediately. No saluting, nothing. Maybe say "as a fellow veteran" ONCE when giving a speech to a veterans group, but that's it. Stop answering questions about it when the press asks you, it is not newsworthy.

He's going to get to thinking he's clever (he's not) and get his ass kicked, that the American people will know that it is all a big, loud special effects show by BushCo and will not be fooled, but they will be, they are fooled. They love videos of bombs exploding and they hate people who challenge their stupidity, Bush is the comforting moron who makes you feel like you could make something out of yourself if someone like that can be president. Vote for him, he seems nice enough.

For the love of Christ, John, you have the money, kick this heavily disliked Texan the hell out of office! And if you don't, you suck harder than Dukakis and Dole in a "we suck at running for president" contest.

I really hope there is a shitload of weaponry being saved up for October. I have no faith in this walking nightmare's ability to take over Bushie's throne.
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post #14 of 92
I think Kerry's not letting it drop because 1. The Repubs keep bringing it up and 2. He can't lose. Seriously, all this storm and fury is over how brave John Kerry is, how big the shrapnel in his arm was, how much he bled and how many bullets were flying around him. I don't think any voter is going to say to himself "If that bit of shrapnel lodged in his leg were a centimeter bigger, maybe I'd vote for him." All it does it keep banging home the comparison of JFK sticking his neck out (how far?) in Vietnam and GWB sticking his, um, in, err... where was he, anyway? That's a character issue right there, and it's one comparison Kerry can only be helped by.

Time will tell, but I think Rove's pushing this issue may go down as his biggest mistake. But who can blame him? He made McCain seem insane and Cleland unpatriotic. That would give anyone hubris.
post #15 of 92
Wow that was harsh, Groverat. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

If he keeps his mouth shut then dumb Americans definitely will believe the bullshit being thrown at him.

If he has a clear enough case to defend himself then he should speak up.

Or are you saying that he should have someone else (like Edwards) do all the speaking about this issue. I could see that being a good strategy. That's not the same thing as him "keeping his fucking mouth shut". If everybody in the Kerry campaign keeps their mouths shut, Bush will allow this issue to be taken all the way to the polls. The TV ads will never stop.
post #16 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Kerry is not a good politician, he is worse than Bush, who at least has the good sense to keep his damned mouth shut and let others do all the work for him.

Bush is the master of throwing bodies between himself and criticism. He keeps silent, he knows visibility is a political weakness. Keep quiet and come out when we need some reassuring cowboy antics about "evildoers" and "freedom-haters". Let your party zealots spread the message then come out and act more moderate than you are when the heat gets turned up. Wait for Kerry to step and then step back and act like he's crazy.

Kerry's ad team should have come out hard against the Swifties right off the bat and out-shouted them. That's all American politics is on a national level, a goddam echo chamber, the loudest wins. Bush has it cranked up to 11 and Kerry is picking away on his little acoustic guitar.

I hope the Democrats like being the losers on the high road, because until they learn to shape up and kick some ass they'll have to wait for another Bubba savior.

Kerry needs to learn to keep his fucking mouth shut. If I was running his campaign all references to Vietnam would stop immediately. No saluting, nothing. Maybe say "as a fellow veteran" ONCE when giving a speech to a veterans group, but that's it. Stop answering questions about it when the press asks you, it is not newsworthy.

He's going to get to thinking he's clever (he's not) and get his ass kicked, that the American people will know that it is all a big, loud special effects show by BushCo and will not be fooled, but they will be, they are fooled. They love videos of bombs exploding and they hate people who challenge their stupidity, Bush is the comforting moron who makes you feel like you could make something out of yourself if someone like that can be president. Vote for him, he seems nice enough.

For the love of Christ, John, you have the money, kick this heavily disliked Texan the hell out of office! And if you don't, you suck harder than Dukakis and Dole in a "we suck at running for president" contest.

I really hope there is a shitload of weaponry being saved up for October. I have no faith in this walking nightmare's ability to take over Bushie's throne.

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post #17 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
You're an ass if you believe the lies . . . there is no real indication that Kerry lied one iota . . . the Doctor was probably not even within a mile of Kerry and anyone else who witnessed backs him or did in records of the time.

Don't pedal that crap scott . . . you'd think he came from Mars if Rove told you he did

As for why he keeps bringing it up?
Because these assholes lied about his record, that's why!
I'd bring it up too!! He wants the truth known . . . that these guys are a bunch of embittered politicos who think that protesters lost the war for us and want to get back at Kerry for it!

Students that you just happened to be talking to? . . . You probably wear your party line on your sleave, even if you don't think it, and these guys are just trying to kiss your ass.

What a shill you are. You totally ignore all these inconsistencies in Kerry's story yet you choose to believe him and a few guys Kerry bought off with $1000 a night hotels and free food. At the same time, you are more than willing to slander other (and far more numerous) Vietnam veterans just because they tell a different story than what Kerry has told and retold differently on countless occasions. What has always been very telling is that Kerry will not release all of his military records because he knows he lied about all this stuff and now he is has been caught. Everyday he tries to respond to this very credible and detailed version of events only brings more attention to this story and his poll numbers are dropping. His campaign has handled this whole thing extremely badly but this is what happens when your guy is a liar. You can only dress up a lie so much - it will always be a lie. Kerry and the DNC are in full damage control mode right now and they are looking for somebody else to slime right now. It is very sad but this is typical of the Democrats these days. It is ready, fire and then aim. These guys have mastered the politics of personal destruction and I guarantee that they will run over anybody in their quest to win in November. None of their accusations about the Swifties contains an ounce of truth to them while the connections between Kerry, the DNC and these 527 groups like Moveon.org are undeniable. I think we will see indictments before long here while Bush and the RNC will be completely exonerated of similar charges from the Kerry camp that there is a connection between the Bush/Cheney campaign and the Swift Boat veterans. There is simply NO LINK between them. There is no proof that there is a link and there will be no proof forthcoming in the future. Period. Kerry simply cannot prove what does not exist. He needs to stop whining. He got himself into this mess by going back on his prior statements that we needed to move on from the idea of who served and who didn't to basing his entire campaign on his four months service in Vietnam when the circumstances of his service during and after the war were always going to be controversial because of how much he has changed his story over the years. Between the whole three Purple Hearts opportunism issue to the Medalgate incident, to the slandering of his fellow veterans in his 1971 Senate testimony one has to ask serious questions about his judgement. Of course, when you don't have a record to run on (especially when you look at his very undistinguished career in Congress) what else are you going to talk about? Add therein lies the man's dilemma...
post #18 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Why should we have a discussion when you lead with lies?

Here it is in bold face, right at the start of the thread, so maybe we don't have to go through 4 pages of nonsense:

KERRY DID NOT ACCUSE THE VETERANS OF ANYTHING. HE READ THE TESTIMONY OF OF OTHER VETERANS. HE ATTESTED THAT HE, HIMSELF, SAW AND DID SIMILAR THINGS. HE NEVER SAID OR IMPLIED THAT ALL, OR EVEN MOST, OF THE SOLDIERS IN VIETNAM WERE A PARTY TO THIS.

Which I guess answers the question of the thread. As long as there are cadres of ditto heads that are happy to repeat the slurs and lies of the people who could care less about the future of this country and care only about power and keeping power, I think it behooves Kerry to go straight at it, call it for what it is, hold it up to the light of day and say "This is the character of what I'm running against. Shameless. False. Not even willing to fight its own battles, and entirely without honor."

You obviously have not watched or read his testimony. He clearly implied that the behavior he testified to was widespread when in fact it was not. In any case, why testify to events you in fact did not see? Many POWs have said that Kerry's words were used against them while they were being tortured in North Vietnamese prison camps. Does this not bother you? Kerry deliberately left a false impression about events in Vietnam for political and personal gain. He himself admitted later that his comments about the alleged atrocities were "over the top" which is typically just the type of thing he likes to say when he is caught in a lie. He admits to lying without doing so directly. I think he owes his fellow veterans an apology but I doubt he ever will because he in reality has no bond with his fellow veterans. Win or lose, he will abandon his "Band of Brothers." They are simply a tool to help him get to the next level of his political career.
post #19 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by 7E7
You obviously have not watched or read his testimony. He clearly implied

logy but I doubt he ever will because he in reality has no bond with his fellow veterans. Win or lose, he will abandon his "Band of Brothers." They are simply a tool to help him get to the next level of his political career.

Until you learn to use the return key I will not read anything you post over three sentences long.
post #20 of 92
I lied to make you feel bad.

Quote:
Originally posted by 7E7
I think we will see indictments before long here while Bush and the RNC will be completely exonerated of similar charges from the Kerry camp that there is a connection between the Bush/Cheney campaign and the Swift Boat veterans. There is simply NO LINK between them. There is no proof that there is a link and there will be no proof forthcoming in the future. Period.

This is what is called 'a link' and it was front page news.

Oh SHIT! Another link! Don't I look like a bit of a dickspanner!

So... that's two members of the Bush campaign who resigned over their links to the Swift Boat Veterans.

I'll put it again another way (in big, italicised letters this time so we can all point and laugh):
So... that's two members of the Bush campaign who resigned over their links to the Swift Boat Veterans.
post #21 of 92
Thread Starter 
hardeehar:

Quote:
Not to offend my recently departed college student self, but what do college student's know?

Waht do a lot of voters know? Nothing, most likely. I was just trying to give an anecdote about at least some people's perceptions. I have no reason to believe these people were Young Reoublicans or anything like that....they were just some 20 year old kids.

As for Kerry:

He DID admit to committing war crimes. It's on video for God's sake! I don't care what he was reading from...he said it clearly.

Regardless of whether the Swift Boat charges are "lies" or not, it's stupid politically for him to keep bringing it up. I don't think it's fair to say Republicans "keep bringing it up". Before Bush condemned the 527s, it was fine. Now, to keep bringing this up is political suicide. His polling among veterans has dropped bigtime.

Hassan:

You can post all the links you want. The links from DNC and Kerry to MoveOn and Media Fund are clearly documented and ongoing. Where are the resignations there? You do know Kerry has lawyers are working with Moveon, right?

tonton:

Quote:
Kerry will not let the issue die because there are too many ignoramuses who still believe the lies. Would you not defend yourself?

And in defending himself, he is not in any way drawing MORE attention to the issue except in the context that it was completely false.

If he were to walk away from it, even now, there would still be many people who ask themselves why he walked away... and who might come to the opinion that perhaps the allegations weren't lies after all.

But the allegations have been proven to be lies. And there are still some people [cough, cough] who deny that fact because it's not advantageous to them politically. That's when they themselves become dishonest.

No one can honestly say that the SBV4T ad was accurate and "for public interest in the truth". Anyone who makes such a claim is either a liar themselves, ignorant, too stupid to determine fact on their own, or delusional.

No. That's wrong...bringing it up is going to kill him. Also, I don't think that the "allegations" have all proven to be lies. How do you get off making that statement?
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #22 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Hassan:

You can post all the links you want. The links from DNC and Kerry to MoveOn and Media Fund are clearly documented and ongoing. Where are the resignations there? You do know Kerry has lawyers are working with Moveon, right?

Come. Sit on my knee. Bouncybouncy.

I'll guide you through this minefield.

Quote:
7E7 had the balls to post this:
I think we will see indictments before long here while Bush and the RNC will be completely exonerated of similar charges from the Kerry camp that there is a connection between the Bush/Cheney campaign and the Swift Boat veterans. There is simply NO LINK between them. There is no proof that there is a link and there will be no proof forthcoming in the future. Period.

I posted links to say that this was a great, big, fat suppurating fucking lie.

When I post
Quote:
Hassan i Sabbah hypothetically posts this crap:
I think we will see indictments before long here while Kerry will be completely exonerated of similar charges from the Bush camp that there is a connection between the Kerry/Edwards campaign and MoveOn.org. There is simply NO LINK between them. There is no proof that there is a link and there will be no proof forthcoming in the future. Period.

you can post links to prove I'm a big fat fucking liar too.

Until then I'll carry on posting links until my 'return' finger falls off (would that there was any chance of this happening to 7E7.)
post #23 of 92
He should keep bringing it up. That's why I liked him in the primaries, like I liked Dean. He pulls no punches. He kept digging and look what we found. Bush's lawyer is connected to them. Of course his whole campaign is. How the hell do you think they got so much money? From their military pensions?! Nope, the ol' Texas GOP. Which is um sort of connected to Bush. Deerrr.


If the Bush campaign is connected to them Bush should be impeached and some people should serve jail time. Sort of like Cheney should go to jail for his Energy Task Force. But that will never, ever happen. Sort of like Michael Jackson will be 80 by the time the trail is over. Because they are rich.
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post #24 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by 7E7
What a shill you are. You totally ignore all these inconsistencies in Kerry's story yet you choose to believe him and a few guys Kerry bought off with $1000 a night hotels and free food. At the same time, you are more than willing to slander other (and far more numerous) Vietnam veterans just because they tell a different story than what Kerry has told and retold differently on countless occasions. What has always been very telling is that Kerry will not release all of his military records because he knows he lied about all this stuff and now he is has been caught. Everyday he tries to respond to this very credible and detailed version of events only brings more attention to this story and his poll numbers are dropping. His campaign has handled this whole thing extremely badly but this is what happens when your guy is a liar. You can only dress up a lie so much - it will always be a lie. Kerry and the DNC are in full damage control mode right now and they are looking for somebody else to slime right now. It is very sad but this is typical of the Democrats these days. It is ready, fire and then aim. These guys have mastered the politics of personal destruction and I guarantee that they will run over anybody in their quest to win in November. None of their accusations about the Swifties contains an ounce of truth to them while the connections between Kerry, the DNC and these 527 groups like Moveon.org are undeniable. I think we will see indictments before long here while Bush and the RNC will be completely exonerated of similar charges from the Kerry camp that there is a connection between the Bush/Cheney campaign and the Swift Boat veterans. There is simply NO LINK between them. There is no proof that there is a link and there will be no proof forthcoming in the future. Period. Kerry simply cannot prove what does not exist. He needs to stop whining. He got himself into this mess by going back on his prior statements that we needed to move on from the idea of who served and who didn't to basing his entire campaign on his four months service in Vietnam when the circumstances of his service during and after the war were always going to be controversial because of how much he has changed his story over the years. Between the whole three Purple Hearts opportunism issue to the Medalgate incident, to the slandering of his fellow veterans in his 1971 Senate testimony one has to ask serious questions about his judgement. Of course, when you don't have a record to run on (especially when you look at his very undistinguished career in Congress) what else are you going to talk about? Add therein lies the man's dilemma...

But you don't even neeed to see Kerry's records, the truth is in the records of the SBV4T . . . . their own records contradict their testimonies . . . they took fire when they said that they did not
O'Niel admitted to being in Cambodia
etc
No need to open his records . . . and BTW, weren't his records opened s long time ago?! . .. and isn't that just a right-wing slogan that means nothing except when referring to Bush and his 'records'?

I have seen his testimony, and that is why I am so certain about it not being what you say . . .I have seen it and read it, it is harsh and critical of percieved negatives in the war, it is also a collectively written statement and he is the spokesman . . .

and then this: 'when you don't have a record to run on'?!?!?!?
well, what heppens then, what happens is that you create a non-stop sleaze-fest of negative adds by proxy . . . which is exactly what Bush is doing.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
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--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #25 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
There's no doubt in my mind that Kerry stretched the truth wrt to the medals. I can't prove it but his actions after the war are clear.

One important aspect that I have not heard out of all this is that apparently they gave out A LOT of medals in Vietnam. It was a cheap way to keep moral up. Is it Kerry's fault he took advantage of it? I guess it is but if they are giving them away why not ask for one.

But yea Kerry is a fucking fool to keep bring it up. He played up his war record a great deal. He's told politically advantageous lies about his service. Now it's biting him in the ass. He made his bed ...

There is no doubt in my mind that Bush stretched the truth wrt to his service in TANG. I can't prove it because the documentation mysterious disappeared, but his actions after he was discharged are clear.

There is no doubt in my mind that Bush stretched the truth wrt to the WMD's in Iraq and Iraq's imminent threat. I can't prove it, but the evidence after the fact are clear.

There is no doubt in my mind that Bush froze and proved his inability to lead the morning on 9/11. I can't prove it, but the video evidence of him sitting there for 7 minutes is clear.

I could go on...and on...and on.
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #26 of 92
But Northgate you can't see the forest through the trees. This thread isn't about truth or fiction. It's about how Kerry is handling this whole thing. Which is not very well. If Kerry keeps going around yelling "Not true! Not true!" it only causes people to ask "What's not true?"


If Kerry were smart he'd ask Clinton what to do about all this.
post #27 of 92
There is no doubt in my mind that Bush is a terrorist mole sent here to demoralize America and destroy her standing on the world stage. i can't prove it, but his actions after 9/11 are clear.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #28 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
But Northgate you can't see the forest through the trees. This thread isn't about truth or fiction. It's about how Kerry is handling this whole thing. Which is not very well. If Kerry keeps going around yelling "Not true! Not true!" it only causes people to ask "What's not true?"


If Kerry were smart he'd ask Clinton what to do about all this.

Yes, of course. Having had your say about Kerry's lies and distortions you now want to be an impartial observer of "strategy", where "true or not" doesn't matter. How very convenient for you.

But the fact that the things being said about Kerry are all demonstrably lies, and lies of a particularly craven and dishonorable nature, changes the nature of the "strategy" for people who do care about what is true or not.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #29 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
But Northgate you can't see the forest through the trees. This thread isn't about truth or fiction. It's about how Kerry is handling this whole thing. Which is not very well. If Kerry keeps going around yelling "Not true! Not true!" it only causes people to ask "What's not true?"


If Kerry were smart he'd ask Clinton what to do about all this.

I'm sorry but this is the weakest argument to date. Let me rephrase what you said "If Kerry defends himself people will ask why he's defending himself"!!! Makes no sense. Personally, Kerry should keep up the onslaught IMO. It paints Bush in more of a bad light than it does Kerry in the long run. It shows Bush and his proxies can only run negative ads while Kerry runs mostly positive ads. It links Bush with a group of liars (more than enough evidence to support my claim here--how many of the 13 have been proven wrong, not there, or outright liars).

Kerry is using Bush's tactics against Bust himself. Guilt by association. Kerry was demonized because he attended a rally that Hanoi Jane attended. A photo of Jane was even doctored to show her with John. Now Bush is being demonized because of his affiliation with SBL4B (SB liars 4 Bush).

This will be worse for Bush IMO because the Hanoi Jane link has drifted from memory while this is happening close to the election. It shows Bush has no plan for the future because he hasn't proposed anything yet.

The few swing voters who might have been swayed by SBL4B are now being show that SBL4B are in fact liars and not to be trusted. Proxy: Bush is not to be trusted.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #30 of 92
It may come out that way in the end. Seems to me that Kerry is playing it wrong. The polls show it.
post #31 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
It may come out that way in the end. Seems to me that Kerry is playing it wrong. The polls show it.

The polls show that the typically vicious smear campaign being waged by the Bush organization is, as usual, somewhat effective (else why would they keep doing it?).

The degree to which Kerry's response has ameliorated that damage is entirely unknowable.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #32 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
It may come out that way in the end. Seems to me that Kerry is playing it wrong. The polls show it.

Acctually the polls don't show that at all. Pretty much neck and neck if anything.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/Pres...cking_Poll.htm
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #33 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
I lied to make you feel bad.


This is what is called 'a link' and it was front page news.

Oh SHIT! Another link! Don't I look like a bit of a dickspanner!

So... that's two members of the Bush campaign who resigned over their links to the Swift Boat Veterans.

I'll put it again another way (in big, italicised letters this time so we can all point and laugh):
So... that's two members of the Bush campaign who resigned over their links to the Swift Boat Veterans.

You sir are an ignorant ass because you aren't posting anything that actually links the Swift Boat veterans to the Bush campaign. It is not against the law for an attorney to advise two groups this way - there is such a thing as client confidentiality. Ever heard of it? You can connect the Kerry campaign and his legal advisors to these other 527 groups in exactly the same way. Why aren't you talking about that? Ginsberg resigned to avoid even the slightest appearance of impropriety because he is a stand-up guy - he was never asked to resign and he did so at his own free will. The other volunteer did exactly the same thing. Just because you are a Bush supporter does not mean that the Bush campaign is doing anything to coordinate with this group. My question to you is this: will we see the same from the Kerry campaign and his advisors who serve in a similar capacity? Don't hold your breath...

I challenge you to post some REAL evidence that Karl Rove is orchestrating all this or shut up you ignorant little prick...
post #34 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
But you don't even neeed to see Kerry's records, the truth is in the records of the SBV4T . . . . their own records contradict their testimonies . . . they took fire when they said that they did not
O'Niel admitted to being in Cambodia
etc
No need to open his records . . . and BTW, weren't his records opened s long time ago?! . .. and isn't that just a right-wing slogan that means nothing except when referring to Bush and his 'records'?

I have seen his testimony, and that is why I am so certain about it not being what you say . . .I have seen it and read it, it is harsh and critical of percieved negatives in the war, it is also a collectively written statement and he is the spokesman . . .

and then this: 'when you don't have a record to run on'?!?!?!?
well, what heppens then, what happens is that you create a non-stop sleaze-fest of negative adds by proxy . . . which is exactly what Bush is doing.

Nobody has seen the entire record. He has not signed the form authorizing their release. He only releases in drips and drabs the stuff he wants us to see.

And Kerry does not have a record to run on - if he did he would be talking about it and defending it. Are you actually impressed by his service in the Senate? You would think that an intellectual such as he portrays himself he would have authored some significant legislation during that time but he has not. He has a shockingly low attendence rate - particularly as it relates to issues involving our nation's security interests and his votes in the Senate have always run contrary to supporting a strong defense and intelligence apparatus. In fact, very few of his Democratic colleagues have been able to support the cuts in these areas he has proposed time and again. If that kind of record makes you sleep better at night then so be it. Kerry and the ideas he represents scare me. I do have a right to my opinion without having to be subjected to your smear campaigns and personal attacks. I know what the facts are because I am not so blinded by all this propaganda that I don't bother to find out what the real story is.
post #35 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by 7E7
You sir are an ignorant ass because you aren't posting anything that actually links the Swift Boat veterans to the Bush campaign.

That's because its already been covered in another thread. Here, I'll do the work for ya. http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...998#post663998

An advisor on Bush's staff was in a ad paid for by a 527. That is illegal. That is a link. That 527 was SBL4B... That is an illegal link. You can dance around this all you want but when push comes to shove a meber of Bush's staff was also part of a 527 which is ILLEGAL.

Good Day.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #36 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by 7E7
You sir are an ignorant ass because you aren't posting anything that actually links the Swift Boat veterans to the Bush campaign.

This is a lie.
Quote:
It is not against the law for an attorney to advise two groups this way

This is true. Can't you see the two things are not mutually exclusive!!!?
Quote:
- there is such a thing as client confidentiality. Ever heard of it? You can connect the Kerry campaign and his legal advisors to these other 527 groups in exactly the same way. Why aren't you talking about that?

This is true. But just because it's legal doesn't make it ethical. That's what the "link" -- and the controversy is all about. The spirit of the law. SBV4T has an unethical, though legal, link to the Bush campaign.
Quote:
Ginsberg resigned to avoid even the slightest appearance of impropriety because he is a stand-up guy - he was never asked to resign and he did so at his own free will. The other volunteer did exactly the same thing.

IMO that's not very honest of you. Obviously they both resigned to limit damage to Herr Bush.
Quote:
Just because you are a Bush supporter does not mean that the Bush campaign is doing anything to coordinate with this group. My question to you is this: will we see the same from the Kerry campaign and his advisors who serve in a similar capacity? Don't hold your breath...

I still ask you what lies MoveOn has ever made in any of their claims...
Quote:
I challenge you to post some REAL evidence that Karl Rove is orchestrating all this or shut up you ignorant little prick...

Of course there's none. JUST BECAUSE THERE'S NO PROOF DOESN'T MAKE IT OK.
post #37 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by 7E7
(....)

I challenge you to post some REAL evidence that Karl Rove is orchestrating all this or shut up you ignorant little prick...

Remember kids, crystal meth and the internet just don't mix.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #38 of 92
addabox I had no idea you were in line with these lackey. why do you support Bush?

7E7 your posts are as pointless as Common Man's. Chalk up #2 to the ignore list.
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"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
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post #39 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by 7E7
You obviously have not watched or read his testimony. He clearly implied that the behavior he testified to was widespread when in fact it was not. In any case, why testify to events you in fact did not see?

Kerry said, in the first bloody paragraph of his testimony,

Quote:
I would like to say for the record, and also for the men behind me who are also wearing the uniforms and their medals, that my sitting here is really symbolic. I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony.

I would simply like to speak in very general terms.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #40 of 92
To which I would add:

Quote:
I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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