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Umm..WTF is Kerry doing?!? - Page 2

post #41 of 92
tonton:

Obviously I don't think the Kerry campaign should be quiet, they should hit the issue very hard and very loud. They should frame it in the way that it best suits them and not concern themselves with whether or not they are satisfying all of their critics.

Kerry himself needs to be quiet on this. He needs to cut out the Vietnam talk. He needs to be highly positive and very visible. It is his people who need to address the bad stuff, let the unknowns get involved with anything ugly. He needs to keep as much mud off of himself as possible.

I am not advocating dirty politics on Kerry's part, I am merely saying that the campaign will have to be louder than Bush's to win.

All Kerry has to do to win this election is to solidify his base. To do that he has got to press issues, and this whole SBVfT thing has stolen the stage, he's got to take it back. You don't take it back by mentioning the SBVfT, you ignore it. Let the underlings handle that, that will do two things at once, (1) it will make it less interesting, people will say "who is that?" and turn the channel and (2) it will keep Kerry's image positive.

People don't vote with political philosophies, they vote with their guts, what the feel when they think of a candidate. People are idiots, so rub their bellies and make them happy.

Smile a lot. Stop the goddam saluting crap, it does nothing helpful. Smile some more. Kiss some babies. Kiss more babies. Look concerned but positive when shaking hands with some random Joe.

If Kerry can lock up his base he's got this thing. He doesn't have to work any miracles, the nation is begging for a new president.

It's an echo chamber. It is theather. Make sure you are the loudest. Make sure you are setting the stage. That's how you win.
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post #42 of 92
Kerry's base is solidified. He's got to appeal to swing voters and Bush voters from 2000 who are unhappy with the way Bush has led the country.

The point of his response is that he has to say something unless he wants to appear weak. It's a gamble, since it's allowing a change of subject and allowing the Bush campaign to define the issues. But he has to respond. And he has to respond by trying to turn this back on Bush.

Personally, I'd like to see him stop defending his own record and ask whether or not military and ex-military like the idea that the Bush strategy suggests that their medals ought to be called into question, too.
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post #43 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
tonton:

Obviously I don't think the Kerry campaign should be quiet, they should hit the issue very hard and very loud. They should frame it in the way that it best suits them and not concern themselves with whether or not they are satisfying all of their critics.

This is good.
Quote:
Kerry himself needs to be quiet on this. He needs to cut out the Vietnam talk. He needs to be highly positive and very visible. It is his people who need to address the bad stuff, let the unknowns get involved with anything ugly. He needs to keep as much mud off of himself as possible.

This is good.
Quote:
I am not advocating dirty politics on Kerry's part, I am merely saying that the campaign will have to be louder than Bush's to win.

And stick to the issues. Yes.
Quote:
All Kerry has to do to win this election is to solidify his base. To do that he has got to press issues, and this whole SBVfT thing has stolen the stage, he's got to take it back. You don't take it back by mentioning the SBVfT, you ignore it.

OK.
Quote:
Let the underlings handle that, that will do two things at once, (1) it will make it less interesting, people will say "who is that?" and turn the channel and (2) it will keep Kerry's image positive.

Yes!
Quote:
People don't vote with political philosophies, they vote with their guts, what the feel when they think of a candidate. People are idiots, so rub their bellies and make them happy.

Correct.
Quote:
Smile a lot. Stop the goddam saluting crap, it does nothing helpful. Smile some more. Kiss some babies. Kiss more babies. Look concerned but positive when shaking hands with some random Joe.

I agree.
Quote:
If Kerry can lock up his base he's got this thing. He doesn't have to work any miracles, the nation is begging for a new president.

Agreed, and how!
Quote:
It's an echo chamber. It is theather. Make sure you are the loudest. Make sure you are setting the stage. That's how you win.

And stick to the issues! I think Kerry has done a good job of not pushing the GWB service thing. It speaks for itself. As does the misguided war. And the economy.

So Kerry needs to push his plan with gusto!

And coerce Bush into as many debates as possible.
post #44 of 92
Quote:
Kerry's base is solidified.

No, it is not. Have you looked at the latest poll numbers that put Bush ahead? Democrat line-crossers are much higher than Republican line-crossers.

Quote:
The point of his response is that he has to say something unless he wants to appear weak.

It only looks weak if that is how it is framed.
Not responding in kind to cheap personal attacks is not necessarily weakness.

tonton:

Kerry is not the slam-dunk win over Bush in debates you think he is. You assign the junior senator way more credit than he deserves. Bush is a moron, sure, but he does all-right in debates because he is very well coached and knows how to turn rhetoric to his favor.

Kerry will make the same mistake Gore made, assuming his superior intelligence will naturally lend to victory. It isn't just about pleasing your base, it is about making sure you are not offensive to the broad spectrum of voters. Bush does this with his simpleton's charm. All it takes is one big of clever rhetoric from Bush to hoist the intellectual snob on his own petard.

Will Kerry be able to sacrifice his ego-massaging enough to secure a victory? That's the question.

Let's put it this way; the way Kerry acts turns me off, and I loathe Bush in a strong and passionate way. I should be a cakewalk for Kerry.
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post #45 of 92
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
It may come out that way in the end. Seems to me that Kerry is playing it wrong. The polls show it.

That's the point. Exactly.

Faust, addabox, etc...you don't understand. Jimmac is wrong...the polls show Bush pulling ahead in key states. This has had a major impact on Kerry. I don't see how you can argue that he should keep talking about this. No matter what SBV4T has done or is connected to, the ad and the surrounding echo chamber (which Kerry keeps feeding) is hurting him. It's a net negative for Kerry.

So spare me the moralisitic drivel about "fighting back against lies." It doesn't matter because's hurting his own campaign. Secondly, if he really wants to fight back, why doesn't he RELEASE HIS MILITARY RECORDS AND ANSWER THE CHARGES?!? Don't you notice that he really hasn't done that?

Some of it might be lies, but not all of it. If you were advising him, you'd honestly tell him to keep bringing it up? If so, I believe Mike Dukakis and Walter Mondale might have a job for you.



Edit: Chandged 1st paragraph to "net negeative for Kerry", which was what I meant.
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post #46 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
That's the point. Exactly.

Faust, addabox, etc...you don't understand. Jimmac is wrong...the polls show Bush pulling ahead in key states. This has had a major impact on Kerry. I don't see how you can argue that he should keep talking about this. No matter what SBV4T has done or is connected to, the ad and the surrounding echo chamber (which Kerry keeps feeding) is hurting him. It's a net negative for Bush.

So spare me the moralisitic drivel about "fighting back against lies." It doesn't matter because's hurting his own campaign. Secondly, if he really wants to fight back, why doesn't he RELEASE HIS MILITARY RECORDS AND ANSWER THE CHARGES?!? Don't you notice that he really hasn't done that?

Some of it might be lies, but not all of it. If you were advising him, you'd honestly tell him to keep bringing it up? If so, I believe Mike Dukakis and Walter Mondale might have a job for you.


SDW, the tenor of your post suggest why maybe you aren't the best person to vet the Kerry response.

You're not really talking about what's best for Kerry here-- that's just a trojan horse to insert the usual about "Kerry releasing his records" (a phrase crafted for you in the Rove elf shop as a specific antidote to the calls for Bush to release his records) and "some of it might not be a lie".

From your perspective establishing truth is "moralistic drivel" but then again, from your perspective Kerry doesn't deserve to be president.

For those of us who disagree, Kerry has done all he can. It wouldn't be such an uphill climb without the willing and eager collaboration of the right wing press, which makes almost any response, or none at all, fraught with danger.

It is not clear to me that attacking Bush's record would serve the Kerry campaign, just because you might end up with the story being "desperate Kerry campaign seeks to turn tables on Bush".

Still, on the balance, I think a nice long national chat about exactly what Bush was up to while Kerry was failing to be sufficiently injured, or better, a sustained debate about real character issues-- that while Kerry chose to serve his country and then participate in a historical debate about Vietnam, Bush was drinking and fucking and tellin' stories and generally behaving like the indolent, self satisfied little prick he is-- might be just the thing to clear the air.
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post #47 of 92
Re: the records.

Doing so will please no one, so don't bother. SDW is going to hate Kerry no matter what he does, there is no way to get SDW and his ilks' vote, so why bother trying to make them happy?
The liberal independents don't care, either.

The Swfities are going to drop off the radar screen soon, no need to extend its life.

Kerry's campaign needs to repeat this phrase, "The American people want a new president, and John Kerry will ..." (insert whatever specific message you want where the ellipsis is).

It is about control of the language and the public mind. If you say something enough, people will accept it as truth. (And that statement is true, even Republicans I know wish they could replace W with a different R.)

Smile.
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post #48 of 92
Thread Starter 
Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

addabox:

Quote:
You're not really talking about what's best for Kerry here-- that's just a trojan horse to insert the usual about "Kerry releasing his records" (a phrase crafted for you in the Rove elf shop as a specific antidote to the calls for Bush to release his records) and "some of it might not be a lie".

You know, that's really insulting. I am open in my support of Bush, but I am honestly saying, I think it's stupid for Kerry to keep bringing this up. If you think I'm doing it just to call Kerry stupid, then think again. There are plenty of other opportunities for that. I can't believe you think I'd start this thread just to talk about Kerry's military record. As I said, that's just insulting.

I'm not saying I won't respond to your point about the military records, though. Do you honestly not see the double standard here? Kerry has not released his military records. That's a plain and simple fact. I would be fine with this, except that the the Democrats and the media were screaming for Bush's ANG records, which he then released. Why is this an invalid topic, given the Kerry is making his Vietnam service a centerpiece of his campaign (that's another clear fact)?
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post #49 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

addabox:



You know, that's really insulting. I am open in my support of Bush, but I am honestly saying, I think it's stupid for Kerry to keep bringing this up. If you think I'm doing it just to call Kerry stupid, then think again. There are plenty of other opportunities for that. I can't believe you think I'd start this thread just to talk about Kerry's military record. As I said, that's just insulting.

I'm not saying I won't respond to your point about the military records, though. Do you honestly not see the double standard here? Kerry has not released his military records. That's a plain and simple fact. I would be fine with this, except that the the Democrats and the media were screaming for Bush's ANG records, which he then released. Why is this an invalid topic, given the Kerry is making his Vietnam service a centerpiece of his campaign (that's another clear fact)?

Fine. I apologize for mischaracterizing your intent.

However: what among the SBVT charges are you thinking might be true? And which, specifically, military records has Kerry not released? If there is anything left it is slight and not very significant, so saying "Kerry hasn't released his records" is at least disingenuous.

My point is, since you obviously think there is some merit to this stuff, and I think it is 100% bullshit, we obviously are going to have different ideas about what Kerry should do, and these ideas are not going to be entirely based on the political merits.

After all, responding to lies and responding to truth are not somehow strategically indistinguishable, but you seem to arguing that they are.

Now it seems to me that for someone who already thinks Kerry is not fit to be president and would at least like this slander to be true, to argue that it doesn't matter if it is true or not is just a tad convenient.
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post #50 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
After all, responding to lies and responding to truth are not somehow strategically indistinguishable, but you seem to arguing that they are.

You know. unfortunately, I think that there is something about the nature of the mediums of the media (TV, Internet, radio) that makes it such that it doesn't matter how truthful the accusations are . . . you've read McLuhan, its implicit with his notion of media as well . . . i think that Kerry could spell out each and every contradiction that we have listed here which already shows these guys are lying, and still it would sound, to many people, just like the parents talking to Charlie Brown in the Peanuts.

It has already worked . . . it is the reason Kerry will lose . . . and the only reason .. . every time someone now shows the cover of Kerry's youthful book "the New Soldier", they will think of Kerry as a fraud rather than a principled and committed man, like he is. . . .

it makes me sad to think that this can happen . . a truly terrible president will stay in office, perpetuating the dark miserable cloud of despair covering the US (which I predicted 4.5 years ago on these boards) and he will do so because mean-spirited and vicious tactics prevailed and manipulated an increasingly lobotomized public.

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post #51 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

addabox:



You know, that's really insulting. I am open in my support of Bush, but I am honestly saying, I think it's stupid for Kerry to keep bringing this up. If you think I'm doing it just to call Kerry stupid, then think again. There are plenty of other opportunities for that. I can't believe you think I'd start this thread just to talk about Kerry's military record. As I said, that's just insulting.

I'm not saying I won't respond to your point about the military records, though. Do you honestly not see the double standard here? Kerry has not released his military records. That's a plain and simple fact. I would be fine with this, except that the the Democrats and the media were screaming for Bush's ANG records, which he then released. Why is this an invalid topic, given the Kerry is making his Vietnam service a centerpiece of his campaign (that's another clear fact)?



I think this whole thing is a distraction from the real issues and I don't think it's Kerry who's bringing it up. This is all because if people start talking about the real issues Bush is imediately in trouble.
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post #52 of 92
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Fine. I apologize for mischaracterizing your intent.

However: what among the SBVT charges are you thinking might be true? And which, specifically, military records has Kerry not released? If there is anything left it is slight and not very significant, so saying "Kerry hasn't released his records" is at least disingenuous.

My point is, since you obviously think there is some merit to this stuff, and I think it is 100% bullshit, we obviously are going to have different ideas about what Kerry should do, and these ideas are not going to be entirely based on the political merits.

After all, responding to lies and responding to truth are not somehow strategically indistinguishable, but you seem to arguing that they are.

Now it seems to me that for someone who already thinks Kerry is not fit to be president and would at least like this slander to be true, to argue that it doesn't matter if it is true or not is just a tad convenient.

You seriously need to go back and read. It isn't about whether anything is true or not. It just isn't. Kerry did the worst possible thing. He sat on the ads and then started responding...every day. He keeps making it an issue, even after Bush condemed ALL 527s. It has nothing to do with whether they are true or not. All he had to do was condemn the book and its contents, and then simply state that he had addressed it already and moved on.

No, I don't think Kerry is fit to be CIC for a whole host of reasons. Most of it has to do with his record. Some of it has to do with his testimony upon arriving home from Vietnam. I do see inconsistencies in his story, particularly about Cambodia, but there are bigger things to worry about.

My only point is that I don't think it's politically smart of Kerry to keep bringing this ad up. It's not even running anymore. What's really ridiculous is that Bush condemning all 527s apparently is good enough...Kerry and Edwards want Bush to condemn SBV4T but NOT MoveOn and Media Fund. That's bullshit and you know it. The Democratic party has CO-HOSTED events with those groups!
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post #53 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001

(.....)
My only point is that I don't think it's politically smart of Kerry to keep bringing this ad up. It's not even running anymore. What's really ridiculous is that Bush condemning all 527s apparently is good enough...Kerry and Edwards want Bush to condemn SBV4T but NOT MoveOn and Media Fund. That's bullshit and you know it. The Democratic party has CO-HOSTED events with those groups!

The technicalities of 527 sponsorship is Bush's spin on the issue, not Kerry's.

The point is that the SBVT ads are lies. Kerry is calling on the Bush white house to disavow a smear campaign based on lies.

MoveOn et al have run ads that attack Bush, but in no way are trading in straight up slander and lies.

See why I keep saying that you're not the guy to vet Kerry's response? Inherent in your reasoning about why what he is doing is wrong is the assumption that Bush's obvious ploy of calling for banning all 527 advertising as a way of pretending to care is somehow putting the issue to rest. You're doing what Bush wanted you to do: mindlessly equating 527 ads as somehow equivalent, regardless of content.

By linking 527s as the equalizing factor, the admin conveniently glosses over the fact that the left has never run anything like the SBVT smear.

Of course, on the eve of the convention Bush suddenly remembers to say that he thinks the ads are lies, too. Mission accomplished, now he can move on to using the convention to drown out anything else.
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post #54 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
No, I don't think Kerry is fit to be CIC for a whole host of reasons.

He can't be as bad as this, can he? This might be the first time ever I've agreed with Tucker Carlson.
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post #55 of 92
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post #56 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
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post #57 of 92
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
The technicalities of 527 sponsorship is Bush's spin on the issue, not Kerry's.

The point is that the SBVT ads are lies. Kerry is calling on the Bush white house to disavow a smear campaign based on lies.

MoveOn et al have run ads that attack Bush, but in no way are trading in straight up slander and lies.

See why I keep saying that you're not the guy to vet Kerry's response? Inherent in your reasoning about why what he is doing is wrong is the assumption that Bush's obvious ploy of calling for banning all 527 advertising as a way of pretending to care is somehow putting the issue to rest. You're doing what Bush wanted you to do: mindlessly equating 527 ads as somehow equivalent, regardless of content.

By linking 527s as the equalizing factor, the admin conveniently glosses over the fact that the left has never run anything like the SBVT smear.

Of course, on the eve of the convention Bush suddenly remembers to say that he thinks the ads are lies, too. Mission accomplished, now he can move on to using the convention to drown out anything else.

Hold on, you argue that the MoveOn ads (and Media Fund) are not as bad as the SBV4T ads? Is that some kind of joke? You can call the ads "all lies" if you want, but that doesn't make them so. The last one talks about what Kerry did AFTER he returned to the US. I just saw it three minutes ago, and you can't call it an unfair ad. Sure, it's an attack ad, but it uses Kerry's own testimony from after the war.

Let me ask you: If Kerry is the victim of unfair and false/slanderous attacks as you claim, why doesn't he RESPOND TO THE CHARGES? Don't you notice he really hasn't done that? He's attacked the ads, not the charges themselves. This doesn't strike you as interesting?

Beyond the above, the main point remains the wisdom of Kerry continuing to talk about the ads, after Bush has called for all of them to stop. It's now had an unquestionable negative impact on him, yet he keeps talking about it. In fact, some argue the race has completely shifted in the last month. Bush is now ahead in almost all major polls. His approval rating is as high as 53%. In fact, no President in history has ever lost with an approval rating like that at this time in the election cycle.

No one has yet explained the wisdom of Kerry's choice adequately. You can attack my ability to critique Kerry if you'd like, but the polling impact is unquestionable. The question is not whether I should be critiquing Kerry's handling of the situation, it's why Kerry supporters AREN'T doing so.
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post #58 of 92
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
He can't be as bad as this, can he? This might be the first time ever I've agreed with Tucker Carlson.

That link is absolutely stupid.
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post #59 of 92
That's logic: he's not talking about the outrageous lies therefor they must be true.

Ever notice that the Republican smearingshit campaign works because they say the most outrageous slander, and then someone tries to counter, but because they are countering against a well honed media-machine of vitriolic talk-heads and biased puppets, they will only sound liked trumpets . . . no matter how absurd the claims.

Bush has approval ratings because they have been doing nothing but pumping their fists in hatriotism and slandering . . . and they have mega-bucks to help them do it loudly . . . .

it certainly is not because anything that he has done!! that is for damn sure . . .
Regular Conservatives, not the puppet stooge squad that we have around here, should be ashamed that these guys are the best the Republicans can do!
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--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

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--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #60 of 92
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
That's logic: he's not talking about the outrageous lies therefor they must be true.

Ever notice that the Republican smearingshit campaign works because they say the most outrageous slander, and then someone tries to counter, but because they are countering against a well honed media-machine of vitriolic talk-heads and biased puppets, they will only sound liked trumpets . . . no matter how absurd the claims.

Bush has approval ratings because they have been doing nothing but pumping their fists in hatriotism and slandering . . . and they have mega-bucks to help them do it loudly . . . .

it certainly is not because anything that he has done!! that is for damn sure . . .
Regular Conservatives, not the puppet stooge squad that we have around here, should be ashamed that these guys are the best the Republicans can do!

Lies? Perhaps. But here are three examples that are hard to explain:

1. Kerry claims to have received a "Silver Star with Combat V." Problem is, "Combat V" was never added to the Silver Star.

2. Kerry has three certifications for the above medal. This is highly unusual. In addition, one of the certs is signed by John Lehman, former Sec. of the Navy. Lehman says that he did not sign, or even see, the cert in question.

3. Kerry claimed he was in Cambodia on XMAS eve, 1968. He made this claim on the Senate floor. It has been confirmed that this is an outright falsehood. It is highly doubful he was in Cambodia at all. If he was, it was not until the following month.

That's just off the top of my head. Are you really saying that these are "just lies"? If they are lies, what is wrong with Kerry simply explaining? Don't you see...he isn't doing that? He's attacking the ads themselves, the administration, the groups that run the ads.....but he's not answering the charges. If they're false, then he should say so. I grant you taht him not explaining doesn't make them true, but politically speaking he's guilty until proven innocent.

Now, let's talk about slander: Could you please cite an example of slanderous Republican claims? Can you further explain your outrage and indignation, even in the face of unprecedented attacks on the President? How do you take offense to one party's attacks,but not the other's?
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post #61 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Lies? Perhaps. But here are three examples that are hard to explain:

1. Kerry claims to have received a "Silver Star with Combat V." Problem is, "Combat V" was never added to the Silver Star.

2. Kerry has three certifications for the above medal. This is highly unusual. In addition, one of the certs is signed by John Lehman, former Sec. of the Navy. Lehman says that he did not sign, or even see, the cert in question.

3. Kerry claimed he was in Cambodia on XMAS eve, 1968. He made this claim on the Senate floor. It has been confirmed that this is an outright falsehood. It is highly doubful he was in Cambodia at all. If he was, it was not until the following month.

That's just off the top of my head. Are you really saying that these are "just lies"? If they are lies, what is wrong with Kerry simply explaining? Don't you see...he isn't doing that? He's attacking the ads themselves, the administration, the groups that run the ads.....but he's not answering the charges. If they're false, then he should say so. I grant you taht him not explaining doesn't make them true, but
politically speaking he's guilty until proven innocent.

Now, let's talk about slander: Could you please cite an example of slanderous Republican claims? Can you further explain your outrage and indignation, even in the face of unprecedented attacks on the President? How do you take offense to one party's attacks,but not the other's?

Blind leading the blind!

I'll start by addressing points one and two for now. SDW since you're such an authority on the military you'll have no problem telling all of us lowely civies who and how a DD214 is put together. Shouldn't be too tough to explain.

3) Where's your proof or is this another unsubstantiated lie put out by SBL4B?
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #62 of 92
When your done explainning how a DD214 is put together you can then explain how the Combat "V" got on Kerry's dd214. Oh and while your at it explain to us civies what a combat "v" is. Please feel free to enlighten us.

PS. You need to stop buying into the lies. These guys have lied to you time and time again. Ever heard the phrase "Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me."? You need to roll that one around for a little while the next time a lie (easily discredited BTW) pops up.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #63 of 92
Here SDW since I don't want others here to think your right for too long and I'm sure you wont respond to my request anyway, so I'll show you and the prime time liars a thing or two. Take a look here: http://hqinet001.hqmc.usmc.mil/HD/Hi...o/Sweet_HJ.htm

Go ahead and tell that Marine he doesn't have a "V"alor star.

You really need to look into the lies you, and trumpt and scott and 7E7 and common man etc, post prior to posting them. Some of us have a Blue Jackets manuals still and can look up regs pretty quickly.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #64 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Here SDW since I don't want others here to think your right for too long and I'm sure you wont respond to my request anyway, so I'll show you and the prime time liars a thing or two. Take a look here: http://hqinet001.hqmc.usmc.mil/HD/Hi...o/Sweet_HJ.htm

Go ahead and tell that Marine he doesn't have a "V"alor star.

You really need to look into the lies you, and trumpt and scott and 7E7 and common man etc, post prior to posting them. Some of us have a Blue Jackets manuals still and can look up regs pretty quickly.

You quote my "lie" about his first purple heart and the regs that disprove it.

I'll bet whatever the hell you want on it. Kerry wasn't fired upon. The commanding officer of the whaler says they weren't fired upon. The commanding officer of Kerry says it was requested by Kerry and denied. The doctor who treated him says it was basically a flesh wound that required bactine and a band-aid. Kerry has refused to release his medical records to counter that charge.

Keep deluding yourself.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #65 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
You quote my "lie" about his first purple heart and the regs that disprove it.

I'll bet whatever the hell you want on it. Kerry wasn't fired upon. The commanding officer of the whaler says they weren't fired upon. The commanding officer of Kerry says it was requested by Kerry and denied. The doctor who treated him says it was basically a flesh wound that required bactine and a band-aid. Kerry has refused to release his medical records to counter that charge.

Keep deluding yourself.

Nick

Bush fucks children. It's a fact. He won't release the records that would settle the matter. Some people said so. One little boy died after Bush was finished with him. There is an affidavit from the boys parents.

Bush has struggled mightily to keep the truth from the American people, but it's starting to come out. HIs efforts to silence his victims are no longer enough. Not the hush money payments, not the threats of violence.

Eye witnesses. Victims. They tell the terrible story of his depraved appetites.

You can lie to yourself all you want, but some people said so.

Bush fucks children. It's a fact.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #66 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
You quote my "lie" about his first purple heart and the regs that disprove it.

I'll bet whatever the hell you want on it. Kerry wasn't fired upon. The commanding officer of the whaler says they weren't fired upon. The commanding officer of Kerry says it was requested by Kerry and denied. The doctor who treated him says it was basically a flesh wound that required bactine and a band-aid. Kerry has refused to release his medical records to counter that charge.

Keep deluding yourself.

Nick

This, I'm sorry to say, but this is the height of blind ignorance. When presented with proof that the SBL4B lied Trupt covers his ears with toilet plungers (a band reference) to avoid the truth. When shown the regs Trumpt runs and hides. When presented with conservative repubs that benefitted in the same manner under similar circumstances as Kerry Trumpt yells and screams "LA LA LA I CAN'T HERE THE TRUTH!!!"

Of the two--you and I-- who is delusional? I have facts behind me. You have conjecture. I stand on documents while you bury yourself with slanderous lies. Of the two--you and I-- who is really delusional? Chew that fat for awile then respond with some more pro-Bush lies becasue that's all you guys have.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #67 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Bush fucks children. It's a fact. He won't release the records that would settle the matter. Some people said so. One little boy died after Bush was finished with him. There is an affidavit from the boys parents.

Bush has struggled mightily to keep the truth from the American people, but it's starting to come out. HIs efforts to silence his victims are no longer enough. Not the hush money payments, not the threats of violence.

Eye witnesses. Victims. They tell the terrible story of his depraved appetites.

You can lie to yourself all you want, but some people said so.

Bush fucks children. It's a fact.

nonono. That's not how it works. It works like this:

Some shill appears on some talk show. Say, someone like Eric Alterman. On something like Anderson Cooper 360. On this show, almost as an aside, the person says something along the lines of "There are rumors that Bush had an affair while he was governor of Texas, that the woman became pregnant, and that Bush forced her to have an abortion." The person says something like "This is just a rumor I've heard."

Then the a paper like the Boston globe mentions it. Then the NY Post writes an editorial to deny it. Then the Washington Times. Then the NY Times writes a piece about the rumor. Then the Washington Post. And then the Bush campaign is forced to respond.

That's how it works. And I swear to God, so long as the democrats keep thinking that this isn't how it works, they'll keep getting their heads handed to them by Republicans who are willing to take advantage of the press's willingness to just report and not interrogate.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #68 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
nonono. That's not how it works. It works like this:

Some shill appears on some talk show. Say, someone like Eric Alterman. On something like Anderson Cooper 360. On this show, almost as an aside, the person says something along the lines of "There are rumors that Bush had an affair while he was governor of Texas, that the woman became pregnant, and that Bush forced her to have an abortion." The person says something like "This is just a rumor I've heard."

Then the a paper like the Boston globe mentions it. Then the NY Post writes an editorial to deny it. Then the Washington Times. Then the NY Times writes a piece about the rumor. Then the Washington Post. And then the Bush campaign is forced to respond.

That's how it works. And I swear to God, so long as the democrats keep thinking that this isn't how it works, they'll keep getting their heads handed to them by Republicans who are willing to take advantage of the press's willingness to just report and not interrogate.

Right. My post wasn't prescriptive, I've just gotten bored with Nick.

Maybe it should be something a little more ghastly, like Bush was drunk one night in say, '72, and ran over a guy and killed him in the parking lot of a bar.

The guy could have made it if he got immediate medical help but Bush left the scene. Left him there to die.

The family machine got to work, whisked Bush away, framed someone else, and payed off the local authorities to not ask any questions.

Now Alterman might be a little too identified with the real left to make an effective point of infection, so how about a blind source? The trick is to get Chris Matthews or Anderson Cooper, as you say, to mention "this new controversy, and it is explosive" on air. Someone has to be willing to come forward, reluctantly, after all these years, to tell his terrible tale. He's been "afraid to speak", but has finally decided that this election is "too important" to "remain silent".

A key point is that Bush was in a blackout at the time, so he actually doesn't even remember what happened. The broader conversation can be about alcoholism, so we can all start thinking about what exactly those "youthful excesses" really looked like.

More witnesses come forward to tell of the ugliness of Bush's drunken rampages, making it a little harder for Americans to think of his past as being "a bit wild" but basically harmless.

The papers can start running stories about the "unanswered questions" that have followed Bush through the years; the tales of reckless driving, cocaine use, public drunkenness.

More people come forward with their particular stories of Bush's dangerous and antisocial behavior. We stop thinking of his sprees as "antics" and start thinking of them as "crimes". Crimes that he has avoided paying for through the agency of his enormously powerful family.

"Recovering Alcoholics for Kerry" can make the rounds of the cable shows, explaining that real recovery obliges the sufferer to make amends for the damage he has done, and come clean with himself and others about what really happened. They can speak of the "dry drunk", when an alcoholic isn't drinking but still has the childish emotional response system of the active drunk. We can all be invited to consider Bush's stubbornness, unseemly braggadocio, wandering attention, and addiction to simple, reductive formulations in light of this information.

Will we ever know the truth about that terrible night in that parking lot? Perhaps not. But one thing is clear. Bush began avoiding responsibility for his actions at an early age. People died, but Bush walked. Just like now.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #69 of 92
And my point was that the lie has to be a) somewhat reasonable and b) almost unprovable. It has to be something where there are either no records or the records are lost. Hence, fathering an illegitimate child and forcing an abortion rather than something like murder.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #70 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
And my point was that the lie has to be a) somewhat reasonable and b) almost unprovable. It has to be something where there are either no records or the records are lost. Hence, fathering an illegitimate child and forcing an abortion rather than something like murder.

OK, but I'm really digging my drunken Bush context. Is there anyway we can make the abortion tie into his drinking? Because with the right hook, I really do think there is a lot of fertile ground there.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #71 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
OK, but I'm really digging my drunken Bush context. Is there anyway we can make the abortion tie into his drinking? Because with the right hook, I really do think there is a lot of fertile ground there.

Sure. When I was living in Oklahoma, I heard a rumor from some friends from Texas that when Bush was gov of texas he fell off the wagon and ordered his security to bring him a woman. They had sex on the desk in his office and the next month, she found she was pregnant. He forced her to have an abortion (possibly paying her) and used his security to ensure that she had it done.

How's that?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #72 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Sure. When I was living in Oklahoma, I heard a rumor from some friends from Texas that when Bush was gov of texas he fell off the wagon and ordered his security to bring him a woman. They had sex on the desk in his office and the next month, she found she was pregnant. He forced her to have an abortion (possibly paying her) and used his security to ensure that she had it done.

How's that?

Works for me. How can we trust this man with life and death decisions? What if he starts drinking again? What if he's drinking now?
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #73 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Works for me. How can we trust this man with life and death decisions? What if he starts drinking again? What if he's drinking now?

a) BINGO!

b) He lied to us!!!
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #74 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Works for me. How can we trust this man with life and death decisions? What if he starts drinking again? What if he's drinking now?

Or worse yet, what if he's doing drugs? How can we trust our lives and liberties on a common drug addict? I don't trust people who have to rely on chemicals and we are expected to trust a chemically dependent president?
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #75 of 92
Who needs to take a months vacation? President Bush and people in rehab programs. Coincidence? All of these "Bike crashes" seem odd too especially when they happen on rainy days when there's not a cloud in the sky?
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #76 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Who needs to take a months vacation? President Bush and people in rehab programs. Coincidence? All of these "Bike crashes" seem odd too especially when they happen on rainy days when there's not a cloud in the sky?

Not to mention that he's apparently having bike wrecks while careening down the massive hills of, um, Crawford, TX.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #77 of 92
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Not to mention that he's apparently having bike wrecks while careening down the massive hills of, um, Crawford, TX.

And the pretzel incident? What goes better with a pretzel and a ball game but beer? The old boy's off the wagon. We all know he's an alcoholic and drug addict and now he's living with the burden of killing a 1000 soldiers for a lie. He's hitting the sauce and probably the prozac too. Hell, his staffers are telling people upset with their lot in life to do just that--pop the proz. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5549796/

Bush is obviously doing one kind of drug or another be it alcohol or pharmaceuticals.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #78 of 92
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Here SDW since I don't want others here to think your right for too long and I'm sure you wont respond to my request anyway, so I'll show you and the prime time liars a thing or two. Take a look here: http://hqinet001.hqmc.usmc.mil/HD/Hi...o/Sweet_HJ.htm

Go ahead and tell that Marine he doesn't have a "V"alor star.

You really need to look into the lies you, and trumpt and scott and 7E7 and common man etc, post prior to posting them. Some of us have a Blue Jackets manuals still and can look up regs pretty quickly.

Excuse me, but #1, how about you fuck off with the personal attacks and condescending insults? #2, I am not claiming to be an authority on the military. I do know a Silver Star (not Bronze, SILVER) with Combat V does not exist.

The point about Lehman comes from a reporter from the Sun-Times who investigated the records. I don't recall his name.

BESIDES, you continue to miss the point. All of it could be lies for all I care....the point is Kerry is handling them stupidly either way. That's all.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
post #79 of 92
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Bush fucks children. It's a fact. He won't release the records that would settle the matter. Some people said so. One little boy died after Bush was finished with him. There is an affidavit from the boys parents.

Bush has struggled mightily to keep the truth from the American people, but it's starting to come out. HIs efforts to silence his victims are no longer enough. Not the hush money payments, not the threats of violence.

Eye witnesses. Victims. They tell the terrible story of his depraved appetites.

You can lie to yourself all you want, but some people said so.

Bush fucks children. It's a fact.

If someone ever makes that claim on national television, you can bet there would be a denial. These are more than outrageous rumors. We're talking about 250 people that served with Kerry, all saying the same thing. It at least deserves a response.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
post #80 of 92
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
nonono. That's not how it works. It works like this:

Some shill appears on some talk show. Say, someone like Eric Alterman. On something like Anderson Cooper 360. On this show, almost as an aside, the person says something along the lines of "There are rumors that Bush had an affair while he was governor of Texas, that the woman became pregnant, and that Bush forced her to have an abortion." The person says something like "This is just a rumor I've heard."

Then the a paper like the Boston globe mentions it. Then the NY Post writes an editorial to deny it. Then the Washington Times. Then the NY Times writes a piece about the rumor. Then the Washington Post. And then the Bush campaign is forced to respond.

That's how it works. And I swear to God, so long as the democrats keep thinking that this isn't how it works, they'll keep getting their heads handed to them by Republicans who are willing to take advantage of the press's willingness to just report and not interrogate.

Wow. Evil, dirty republicans!
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
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